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'[OT]: Why cannot some of us play well with others.'
2001\06\21@205330 by Douglas Wood

picon face
Actually, Olin, he DID get some responses from those of us who KNOW who
Avocet is/was, who KNOW what the AVMAC51 assembler is/was, who don't
discriminate against people who use processors other than the PIC/SX, and
who regularly use DOS programs because of need or desire.

Why do you insist on continually showing the PICLIST community just how
boorish and trivial you can be by firing off emails that tell us nothing
except why you wouldn't send a reply in the first place. Frankly, if you
cannot or will not provide a considerate, useful response, don't. I've had
several newbie PICLISTers complain off-line about you and a couple other of
our most cantankerous members over the past few months. Make no mistake
about it; you are a valuable PICLIST member and when you do manage to
provide help, it is usually of very high quality. However, when you rant on
as below, I have to wonder why James doesn't step in with a warning about
civility. I, for one, grow quickly weary of the kind of response found
below.

If saying this, James, get me kicked off the PICLIST, fine. I feel, however,
that we shouldn't allow Olin's bad temperament to ruin an otherwise great
discussion group. In words I assume you'll understand, knock it off!!!

Douglas Wood
Software Engineer
spam_OUTdbwoodTakeThisOuTspamkc.rr.com

Home of the EPICIS Development System for the PIC and SX
http://epicis.piclist.com


{Quote hidden}

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2001\06\21@212849 by Nick Taylor

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Well said!
  -Nick T.

Douglas Wood wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2001\06\21@223333 by James Newton. Admin 3

face picon face
When anyone has problems with another list member, they need to contact me
directly and NOT complain publicly on the list.

That applies to Olin, Douglas and everybody else.

I hadn't respond to that post yet because I hadn't had time to see it and
nobody bothered to forward it to me off-list to let me know what was going
on. Actually, that's not true, someone did send me a private bitch about
Olin's post (thank you) but they didn't forward the offending message so I
didn't realize what was up, and the list server has been having problems so
I didn't receive the original post until just about an hour ago.

If you have a problem, just forward the post to EraseMEjamesnewtonspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTpiclist.com, or
in most email clients, just click on
jamesnewtonspamspam_OUTpiclist.com
and yell at me about them. Believe me, when they seem to be a member that
will not respond to my off-list suggestions and warnings, I will drop the
problem child off the list no matter how smart, valuable, or generous they
are. It just takes me longer to give up on the really smart ones.

No further posts on this thread.

FINAL WARNING!

James Newton, PICList Admin #3
@spam@jamesnewtonKILLspamspampiclist.com
1-619-652-0593 phone
http://www.piclist.com

{Original Message removed}

2001\06\22@044809 by Oluseyi Odeinde

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Douglas, i couldn't agree with u more.
-seyi

Nick Taylor wrote:

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2001\06\23@174743 by Charlie Davis

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I'm glad that I'm not the only one to find OLIN an arragant ass.
With this I will tender my resignation.

W8AWS

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2001\06\23@183033 by adastra

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I hate to blow bandwidth on this kind of thing, but I really don't get this
at all.

It seems to me that Olin is a guy who values his time highly, yet he
obviously contributes a fair amount of it to responding to the posts that he
chooses.  Not only do his technical answers seem well considered and
helpful, I personally cannot find fault with his non-technical suggestions
either.  (Read the archives; don't expect others to do it all for you; don't
email me for answers to questions that that I have not chosen to address.)
Seems like common sense to me.

I have been (mostly) a lurker here for a long time, and I have learned a
very great deal here.  Unfortunately, over time I have seen quite a few
active and helpful participants driven away by rudeness, pettiness,
insensitivity, and the kind of name-calling demonstrated in this particular
post.

Obviously Mr. Davis doesn't care if Olin signs off, he's resigning anyway.
OTOH, I do care, and sincerely hope that this new round of pettiness goes to
sleep without our losing any more of our very fine contributors.

I would just like to take this opportunity to thank Olin, and all of the
other generous posters who make this list such a great resource.

Foster



> {Original Message removed}

2001\06\23@183459 by HEV

picon face
I  wonder why he didnt get any reply from Avocet (Olin...fyi  avocet has
been one of the major players in the compilers/cross
assemblers/simulators/etc  arena since the days of the 4040...and their
stuff is among the finest). I am a *registered* user of their products and
their support team has been very responsive (my toolset is MSDOS based too).
Maybe he failed to give them a serial number matching the licensees name??
HMMM.

Regards,
HEV

{Original Message removed}

2001\06\23@231757 by Bill Westfield

face picon face
   It seems to me that Olin is a guy who values his time highly, yet he
   obviously contributes a fair amount of it to responding to the posts
   that he chooses.  Not only do his technical answers seem well
   considered and helpful, I personally cannot find fault with his
   non-technical suggestions either.

I agree.  Olin's contributions outweigh his occasional curmudgeonly
comments by a long shot.  Besides, people treating the piclist like it's
some paid-for customer-support service ("It's been 24 hours!  Where's the
answer to my question!") pisses me off almost as much as it does him.

:-)
BillW

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2001\06\25@165903 by Peter Barick

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Oh, Douglas, I don't see the point, dumping on Olin like that. Look,
Olin has his style, abrupt, no-nonsense, no pussy-footing either. Harsh,
maybe, but to-the-point the first time and consistently so for a
buss-load of posters. Reminds me of some autocratic profs I've had. Do
the right thing, make an effort, that was merely OK, sluff-off--worse,
be unprepared--look out! After a while the class adjusted just fine. I
think Olin's like that and it's okay by me, I think his heart is in the
right parts bin.

So I'll ask you to be more understanding. PICListers have a good list,
lot's-o-great guys here. Let's all take a deep breath occasionally.

Peter Barick, PIC newbee

>>> TakeThisOuTdbwoodEraseMEspamspam_OUTKC.RR.COM 06/21/01 07:56PM >>>
Actually, Olin, ...
<<klip>>
Why do you insist on continually showing the PICLIST community just
how
boorish and trivial you can be by ...
<<klip>>

Douglas Wood
Software Engineer
RemoveMEdbwoodspamTakeThisOuTkc.rr.com

Home of the EPICIS Development System for the PIC and SX
http://epicis.piclist.com


> Look -------, I saw your message the first time.  If I wanted to
> respond to it I would have.  I guess others didn't respond either.
> You are not owed an answer.  You asked a bunch of people for a
favor,
> and in this case they all declined.  That's life.  Get over it.
> Sending me the same message again privately is just going to piss me
> off, which may cause me to avoid helping you next time.
<<klip>>

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2001\06\25@190737 by Douglas Wood

picon face
So... let me get this straight: It's OK for Olin to be nasty to people
on-list, but not for me to publicly decry his attitude?

So, Peter Barick, PIC newbee, will you still believe this way if Olin (or
anyone else) provides YOU with a "abrupt, no-nonsense, no pussy-footing"
retort?

If you'd read my response to Olin, I think you'll find that I gave due
consideration to his contributions to the List. Those invaluable Lathrop
gems are just that; why muck with success by tainting it with vitriol?

As an earlier post said, Olin is certainly entitiled to respond to what he
considers annoyances in his life. If he gets a private message which bothers
him, let him respond in any why he feels required IN PRIVATE. AMEN! But to
take a private email and repost it to the PICLIST for the sheer fun of
publicly chastising someone is uncalled for.

The bulk of the members of the PICLIST seem to be able to conduct themselves
with consideration and dignity. I simply feel that the small remaining few
should make every attempt to do the same.

Douglas Wood
Software Engineer
EraseMEdbwoodspamkc.rr.com

Home of the EPICIS Development System for the PIC and SX
http://epicis.piclist.com

{Original Message removed}

2001\06\25@201546 by Nick Taylor

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                !! Attention All !!

It is almost report card time in PIC Kindergarten.  At this point
in time there are several PIC Kindergartners who will have to
explain to their Mommies why their report cards say, "Johnny does
NOT play well with others".

A word to the wise should be sufficient.

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2001\06\25@223849 by Mark Newland

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Douglas Wood wrote:

> As an earlier post said, Olin is certainly entitiled to respond to what he
> considers annoyances in his life. If he gets a private message which bothers
> him, let him respond in any why he feels required IN PRIVATE. AMEN! But to
> take a private email and repost it to the PICLIST for the sheer fun of
> publicly chastising someone is uncalled for.

I have to agree on this point.  I don't care if someone offlist gets Olin pissed
off just as much as I don't care what people here do in their bedrooms at night
while dressed in bunny suits while carrying bottles of chocolate syrup.  Some
things should just be left PRIVATE!!

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2001\06\26@100913 by Douglas Butler

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Maybe I should use the sig I use on a wargaming BBS:

> I'm confused!  Explain to me again how peace and forgiveness will help me to
> crush my enemies and make them suffer.

Sherpa Doug

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2001\06\26@114501 by Dan Michaels

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Sherpa Doug wrote:
>Maybe I should use the sig I use on a wargaming BBS:
>
>> I'm confused!  Explain to me again how peace and forgiveness will help me to
>> crush my enemies and make them suffer.
>

Ahh, an expert. I have an extremely ignorant question.
On Robotech, what exactly is a "Mecha"? Simply a mechanical
force unit, such as robot or armored vehicle? Or is there
some specifically defined destructive element? Is there
such a thing as a "Meka"?

- danM
=============

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2001\06\26@120332 by Peter Barick

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Douglas opines--ready for this?--"understand[ing] the American way,"
albeit, in his inimical way. Sadly, I cannot read this without wondering
are his vitriolics representative of this PICList, i.e., is this a
consensus--or one frustrated soul crying out loud.

Do other PICsters see a problem responding as Douglas did? ... is this
the direction the list is headed? ... is such rhetoric condoned by
listers? Let's begin to look at this constructively.

Granted, Douglas appears angry, but even a "3[-year-old]" is expected
to comport himself with civil panache. You, Douglas?  Let's read on ...
PB
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> "Douglas Wood" <RemoveMEdbwoodTakeThisOuTspamspamkc.rr.com> 06/25/01 06:23PM >>>
>>Peter,

>>What kind of fucking bullshit crap are you spewing from your newbee
ass now?

>>Where the fuck do you think you get off as a [!!] fucking lowlife
newbee [!!]

>>having any input to any conversation that you see on the PICLIST?!?

>>How fucking old are you, anyway? 3? Why don't you go immediately to
your
>>email client software and type "[PIC]: UNSUBSCRIBE" right fucking now
since
>>it's pretty obvious that you will never be able to run with even the
worst
>>of the PICLIST membership.

>>-------------------------------------------------------
<<klip>>

>>Also, please understand that many people on the List are 1) from
countries
>>and cultures that do not understand the American way [???? Ahem, Your
Way ! ]
>>of speaking [ Spewing??] our minds so freely. ...
<<klip>>

Yes, your civics lesson is quite unexpected considering your exposed
"credentials." However, some, as we see here, wrongly mouth "freedoms"
but ignore accepted responsibilities of civil deportment. Freedom does
not excuse contumely behavior and irrationality, nor condones
incivility. While I sense your pain, I do not understand your vehemence
for my simple suggestion and attempted explanation in my prior post. PB

<<Have a good one...
Thank you, Douglas, I'll make it okay.
Peter Barick, PIC newbee

>>Douglas Wood
>>Software Engineer
>>EraseMEdbwoodspamspamspamBeGonekc.rr.com

>>Home of the EPICIS Development System for the PIC and SX

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2001\06\26@121618 by Dan Michaels

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PeterB wrote:
>Douglas opines--ready for this?--"understand[ing] the American way,"
>albeit, in his inimical way. Sadly, I cannot read this without wondering
>are his vitriolics representative of this PICList, i.e., is this a
>consensus--or one frustrated soul crying out loud.
>
>Do other PICsters see a problem responding as Douglas did? ... is this
>the direction the list is headed? ... is such rhetoric condoned by
>listers? Let's begin to look at this constructively.
>

It is the purpose of the moderator to deal with something as
"blatant" as what you mentioned.

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2001\06\26@125259 by Dale Botkin

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It is with sadness an dismay that I have today seen two things that should
NEVER have happened:

A PIClist member flaming another (though privately), using gross profanity
and personal insults and trying to cast the PIClist as some sort of
elitist clique where only the skilled and experienced may speak; and

A PIClist member publicly posting another's private comments (no matter
how reprehensible) to the list without permission.

Both individuals should step back and take a good, hard look at what's
going on here.  This whole topic has escalated far beyond anything
reasonable, and really needs to stop.  Now.  I am embarrassed by the
volume of pointless name-calling and bickering over the past week.  It
almost seems there is a movement to make the original, admittedly somewhat
abrasive email pale in comparison.

I'm sure I speak for the majority of the list when I say I'm thoroughly
sick and tired of seeing the bickering and insults aired here.  People, if
you have an issue to take up with another list member and you simply
*cannot* survive without duking it out via email, take it up OFF LIST.
If you can't get yourself comfortable with this concept, please feel free
to make one last post with a public apology before leaving.

Dale
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On my desk I have a workstation...

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2001\06\26@131142 by Peter Barick

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>>> RemoveMEdaleKILLspamspamBOTKIN.ORG 06/26/01 11:57AM >>>
>>It is with sadness an dismay that I have today seen two things that
should
>>NEVER have happened:
<<klip>>

>>A PIClist member publicly posting another's private comments (no
matter
>>how reprehensible) to the list without permission.
<<klip>>

>>I'm sure I speak for the majority of the list when I say I'm
thoroughly
>>sick and tired of seeing the bickering and insults aired here.
<<klip>>
>>to make one last post with a public apology before leaving.

>>Dale

Ohmygod! My apologies to Dale and the PICList. Through my ignorance I
mistook Douglas' post to the list, as were his others.

You're right, private mail, in this case, was inappropriately
addressed. Thanks for pointing out my error. I have learned a valuable
lesson.

Peter Barick, PIC newbie

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2001\06\27@063517 by Russell McMahon

picon face
> Maybe I should use the sig I use on a wargaming BBS:
>
> > I'm confused!  Explain to me again how peace and forgiveness will help
me to
> > crush my enemies and make them suffer.
>
> Sherpa Doug



I considered referring you to Romans 12:20 which seems to cover this but

   1.    Dan Michaels would probably get upset with me.

   2.    I doubt if the long term outcome for your enemies
           is what you wish for :-)

so I won't :-)


               Russell McMahon

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2001\06\27@065003 by Jinx

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> > > I'm confused!  Explain to me again how peace and forgiveness
> > > will help me to crush my enemies and make them suffer.
>
> I considered referring you to Romans 12:20 which seems to cover this but
>
>     1.    Dan Michaels would probably get upset with me

Let him get upset and then be nice and peaceful and forgive him Russell

(stirring it again)

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2001\06\27@125234 by Dan Michaels

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At 07:25 PM 6/27/01 +1200, you wrote:
>> Maybe I should use the sig I use on a wargaming BBS:
>>
>> > I'm confused!  Explain to me again how peace and forgiveness will help
>me to
>> > crush my enemies and make them suffer.
>>
>> Sherpa Doug
>
>
>
>I considered referring you to Romans 12:20 which seems to cover this but
>
>    1.    Dan Michaels would probably get upset with me.
>

Actually, Russell, I just hate to see James having to get out his
Big Bertha Hammer, and start threatening piclisters as a result
of what such discussions always turn into. It seems piclisters
cannot discuss certain matters without coming to cyberblows.
Have you forgotten, again?

[and thanks for the ref - 12:20 - I'll certainly look it up].

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