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'[OT]: Who are these people?'
2003\05\09@052631 by Russell McMahon

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According to a site I found relating to these people there are 3.22 million
in America

And they represent:

38% of Doctors in America
12% of Scientists in America
36% of NASA employees
34% of MICROSOFT employees
28% of IBM employees
17% of INTEL employees
13% of XEROX employees

If so

- The average US citizen should have no problem identifying them.

- They appear well over represented in the above areas

Who are they?

Presumably stepping in the door at Redmond and looking around would provide
the answer :-)

I find it hard to believe these figures but they may well be true.

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2003\05\09@053909 by Ben Jackson

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On Fri, May 09, 2003 at 08:46:04PM +1200, Russell McMahon wrote:
> According to a site I found relating to these people there are 3.22 million
> in America
>
> And they represent: [...]

Also, they are some of the best ping-pong players in my office.

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2003\05\09@060559 by mark

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> I find it hard to believe these figures but they may well be true.
> - They appear well over represented in the above areas

Why are you so surprised that such a high proportion of high achievers in American society are of Indian ethnic origin? Are you suggesting that the numbers of non-caucasians should be limited in certain professions so as to be more representative of the population as a whole?

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2003\05\09@071610 by Russell McMahon

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> > I find it hard to believe these figures but they may well be true.
> > - They appear well over represented in the above areas
>
> Why are you so surprised that such a high proportion of
> high achievers in American society are of Indian ethnic origin?

Assuming, for the moment,  that that is who I meant; because I did not
realise that one racial group had been so perspicacious as to so thoroughly
dominate the highly lucrative US medical industry, let alone the technical
achievements suggested by the other stats. They have obviously set their
minds to achieving at a far higher level than the average US inhabitant.
[[OK: That should be enough to stir up the other side :-) ]]


> Are you suggesting that the numbers of non-caucasians should
> be limited in certain professions so as to be more representative
> of the population as a whole?

You don't know me very well :-)

No. Not at all. And I can't see any way that you could reasonably infer that
from what I wrote :-(.

I was just genuinely surprised. If there are 240 million * US residents then
the Doctor ratio says that they provide 0.38/( 3.22/240) = 28 times as many
doctors per capita than is normal for americans as a whole. Any group that
is that well represented in such a highly respected (and remunerated)
profession is doing very well indeed. Why the average american does not
decide to join them is somewhat of a mystery to me. (As an engineer I'm
doing so on their other successful fronts :-) ).





               Russell McMahon

* if the population is > 240 M the ratio is even higher.

________________

> According to a site I found relating to these people there are 3.22
million
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2003\05\09@074153 by Spehro Pefhany

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At 11:12 PM 5/9/2003 +1200, you wrote:
> > > I find it hard to believe these figures but they may well be true.
> > > - They appear well over represented in the above areas
> >
> > Why are you so surprised that such a high proportion of
> > high achievers in American society are of Indian ethnic origin?
>
>Assuming, for the moment,  that that is who I meant; because I did not
>realise that one racial group had been so perspicacious as to so thoroughly
>dominate the highly lucrative US medical industry, let alone the technical
>achievements suggested by the other stats. They have obviously set their
>minds to achieving at a far higher level than the average US inhabitant.
>[[OK: That should be enough to stir up the other side :-) ]]

Perhaps we are jumping to conclusions by assuming "doctor" = "M.D."

... this page says
http://www.usinpac.com/history.asp
"Furthermore, 30,000 Indian-American medical doctors are practicing in the
United States today"

This page says:
http://migration.ucdavis.edu/mn/archive_mn/feb_1996-07mn.html

"The number of doctors in the US has been growing --from 150 per 100,000
residents in 1970, to almost 250 per 100,000 today. About one-fourth of the
661,000 doctors in the US were born abroad."

30,000/661,000 = 4.5%, nowhere near 38% (and probably on the high side,
given the presumed bias of the first source).

If the claim is that 38% of "Doctors" = PhDs in the US are Indian..

But the above page also says:
"In April 1993, about 10 percent of US residents holding Bachelor's degrees
in science and engineering, and seven percent of non-science and engineering
BAs, were foreign born, as were 23 percent of the science and engineering
PhDs, and 12 percent of the non- science and engineering PhDs. The share
of foreign-born PhDs was highest in engineering (40 percent), math and
computer science (33 percent) and physics, chemistry, and economics
(31, 26, and 24 percent). About 55 percent of the immigrants with PhDs
in science and engineering are naturalized US citizens."

So that's hard to believe too. There may be some degree of degree
inflation involved, and also the immigration process filters out people
without degrees and advanced degrees. I know that some countries have
degrees that are not accepted at full value by North American unis.

I see a lot of Indians working for the tax department here-
civil service jobs are high status in India, so they appeal to the
culture.

Best regards,

Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..."            "The Journey is the reward"
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2003\05\09@090541 by John Ferrell

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" Why are you so surprised that such a high proportion of high achievers in
American society are of Indian ethnic origin? Are you suggesting that the
numbers of non-caucasians should be limited in certain professions so as to
be more representative of the population as a whole?"

Not even a little bit!

Some of us wonder of our country could continue to function without the
steady influx of highly motivated and talented immigrants.
Some of us KNOW we would suffer without the influx of the underprivileged
that are willing to accept the less attractive jobs.

Unfortunately, within two generations we all seem to evolve to a bunch of
lazy cynics.
Mutual acceptance is key to mutual prosperity.

Racial quotas are under serious challenge in the US. Racial & cultural
diversity seem to be desirable but our best efforts towards these goals seem
to make us appear to be oppressors and tyrants.

The older I get the less impressed I am with myself and the more impressed I
am with others.

John Ferrell
6241 Phillippi Rd
Julian NC 27283
Phone: (336)685-9606
johnferrellspamKILLspamearthlink.net
Dixie Competition Products
NSRCA 479 AMA 4190  W8CCW
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2003\05\09@093752 by Madhu Annapragada

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Sort of a Darwinian process...the best get access to limited but highly
effective resources in the home country (schools, higher education, an
encouraging family and societal environment etc..) and as is the case with
highly motivated people tend to seek out challenging and nurturing places to
grow (of which the US is among the top). This is the reason you see a skewed
percentage (as a function of the minority population) of minorities of
Indian origin who do well...Darwinian is my theory and I am sticking to
it...well that and I am a part of "these people"..
Madhu

{Original Message removed}

2003\05\09@095019 by Sean H. Breheny

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That could explain why a high percentage of Indians in the U.S. are so
highly educated, but it would not explain why a high percentage of those
highly educated are Indians, unless a high percentage of the population
were Indian. I think there is really truth to the idea that there is
something about the culture and environment and educational system in the
U.S. that does not encourage you to excel academically and also practically
(in some areas, like engineering).

Sean

At 09:44 AM 5/9/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>Sort of a Darwinian process...the best get access to limited but highly
>effective resources in the home country (schools, higher education, an
>encouraging family and societal environment etc..) and as is the case with
>highly motivated people tend to seek out challenging and nurturing places to
>grow (of which the US is among the top). This is the reason you see a skewed
>percentage (as a function of the minority population) of minorities of
>Indian origin who do well...Darwinian is my theory and I am sticking to
>it...well that and I am a part of "these people"..
>Madhu

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2003\05\09@120005 by Lawrence Lile

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Russell,

The answer to this is simple.  I call it the Immigrant syndrome:

1.  Many countries send their best students to the US to study.  The cream
of the crop.  This is why I had two Iranian math teachers in college. Lots
of them stay.

2. Many immigrants to a country are highly motivated.  Often they have
experienced poverty or instability, and this is a heavy motivator for
them.  Many US residents who experienced the Great Depression  have some
of the same characteristics.  Many US residents who experienced the 1970's
are a lot more mellow.

3. Many immigrants to the US face an uphill battle constantly, with racism
and xenophobia.  In fact in order to achieve parity in pay scale with US
residents in similar fields, they often need an advanced degree to
compete.

4. US perceptions of people from the Indian subcontinent are generally
positive, compared to many other groups.  We have these images of heroes
like Ghandi,  the Indian accent is hypnotic to our ears, and we have the
perceptions that they are all smart guys.  So the way is paved a little
bit.

5. Note that there are few Indian English professors.  Many immigrants
gravitate toward science and math because less fluency is required, and in
fact less is expected. From the Electrical Engineering building restroom
on the MU campus: " Six Munts ago I cuden't even spell Ingeneer and now I
Are One.  "

Note that these observations are generalities based on my own observations
and there are plenty of counterexamples.  YMMV.


-- Lawrence Lile

Email me offlist and I'll tell you some good places to visit in the
Southwest.  Phoenix area?





Russell McMahon <.....apptechKILLspamspam.....PARADISE.NET.NZ>
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       Subject:        [OT]: Who are these people?


According to a site I found relating to these people there are 3.22
million
in America

And they represent:

38% of Doctors in America
12% of Scientists in America
36% of NASA employees
34% of MICROSOFT employees
28% of IBM employees
17% of INTEL employees
13% of XEROX employees

If so

- The average US citizen should have no problem identifying them.

- They appear well over represented in the above areas

Who are they?

Presumably stepping in the door at Redmond and looking around would
provide
the answer :-)

I find it hard to believe these figures but they may well be true.

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2003\05\09@122310 by Martin Baker

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Whether or not " These" people are immigrants, there is an even more
insidious problem facing this nation.

We have the finest institutions of higher education in the world. We also
have the worst elementary school system in the civilized world. I have
worked with grade school students from all over the world on an informal
basis and they inevitably feel that college, even here, is easier than
grade school and high school.

WE need to fund our schools better than we are. We have an incredibly
dedicated pool of teachers, most of whom routinely contribute supplies and
equipment from their own meager salaries, and relative to the rewards they
are exemplars. I can only imagine what sort of an educational system we
would have if the funding levels relative to the economic means were what
they were in the 50's and 60's when we were in the space race and the cold
war....

Sigh.... ok, who wants the soap box now... I'm done.

Martin

At 08:46 PM 5/9/03 +1200, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2003\05\09@125917 by John Ferrell

face picon face
Beware of stereotyping...
 I frequent a small store for gasoline & misc food items that appears to be
family operated and they live on site.
 Religous & cultural differences tend to keep us apart but commerce &
public education may help.
I suspect they are 'Indian' due to the red dot the young lady has on her
forehead but too much interest would be offensive...
They seem nice folks.


John Ferrell
6241 Phillippi Rd
Julian NC 27283
Phone: (336)685-9606
@spam@johnferrellKILLspamspamearthlink.net
Dixie Competition Products
NSRCA 479 AMA 4190  W8CCW
"My Competition is Not My Enemy"

{Original Message removed}

2003\05\09@131038 by John Ferrell

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I totally disagree.
Any additional dollars will be spent on an already micro-managed
administration.
Kids don't need computers, they need interpersonal relationships, discipline
and a friendly environment.
Less money just might drive of the leeches...

Shields at 120%!

John Ferrell
6241 Phillippi Rd
Julian NC 27283
Phone: (336)685-9606
KILLspamjohnferrellKILLspamspamearthlink.net
Dixie Competition Products
NSRCA 479 AMA 4190  W8CCW
"My Competition is Not My Enemy"

{Original Message removed}

2003\05\09@170214 by Frank Collingwood

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India creates in excess of 2 MILLION graduates a year. (By graduate, I'm
talking about about university degreed people - Unlike the US, the rest of
the world does not consider school leavers to be graduates). The Indian
economy has no way of supporting these figures, so the cream go elsewhere.

Centres of technical excellence, like Germany and Japan are closed to them,
due to strict immigration laws, so they have to go to the second best, the
US, UK, Oz, NZ........

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2003\05\09@172517 by Peter Barick

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Mr. Anonymous,

You imply the U.S. considers "school leavers to be graduates" as an
accepted
truth. Preposterous! Please support that with a source or some proof.

I am employed at a U.S. University and am dumbfounded by your
assertion.
Degrees only to Graduates.
An interesting take by someone from afar, I long for an explanation.

Peter
-----------------------------------------

>>> RemoveMEfrankTakeThisOuTspamCOLLINGWOOD.ME.UK 05/09/03 03:50PM >>>
India creates in excess of 2 MILLION graduates a year. (By graduate,
I'm
talking about about university degreed people - Unlike the US, the rest
of
the world does not consider school leavers to be graduates). The
Indian
economy has no way of supporting these figures, so the cream go
elsewhere.

Centres of technical excellence, like Germany and Japan are closed to
them,
due to strict immigration laws, so they have to go to the second best,
the
US, UK, Oz, NZ........

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2003\05\09@180304 by Alex Holden
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On Fri, 2003-05-09 at 22:25, Peter Barick wrote:
> Mr. Anonymous,

Why accuse him of being anonymous when he clearly identified himself as
Frank Collingwood?

> You imply the U.S. considers "school leavers to be graduates" as an
> accepted
> truth. Preposterous! Please support that with a source or some proof.

I believe he was referring to the fact that in the US there is the
concept of "graduating from high school" (which I assume not everybody
manages to do), whereas in the UK everyone finishes school at age 16
regardless of the GCSE grades they achieve (apart from a gifted few who
skip a year or two). After that you have the option of going on to
college or sixth form for two years to do either A levels or a
vocational qualification, then after that (if you do well enough) you
have the option of going to university to study for a bachelors degree.

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2003\05\09@184944 by Frank Collingwood

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Couple of points.......

1. Hardly Anonymous - the From: header clearly states my name.
2. In the US, kids "graduate" from high school. Kids talk of their "high
school graduation" - there is no implication that they are degreed (Hint:
read the posting *VERY* carefully), but they are still considered to be
"graduates".
3. What bearing does your employer have on this at all?
4. I see you make no comment on the main direction of the post, but choose
to jump on something petty. How ridiculous.
5. It may be an interesting take by someone from afar, but please do bear in
mind that a higher proportion of people outside the US are aware of the
world around them than those in the US......

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2003\05\09@185736 by Bob Blick

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Hi Frank,

It looks like you're making things worse here with your own words - in the
US, high school is not university, yet here are quotes from two of your
posts that either contradict or link high school with university:

Frank Collingwood said:

most recently:

> 2. In the US, kids "graduate" from high school.

and earlier:

>> (By graduate,
>> I'm
>> talking about about university degreed people - Unlike the US, the
>> rest of
>> the world does not consider school leavers to be graduates).

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2003\05\09@195013 by Frank Collingwood

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Hi Bob

Not at all, and having attended both, I am well aware that high school is
not unversity. However, in the US kids "graduate" from high school. I am not
implying any link betwwen high school and universtiy at all, merely stating
that fact that in very few countries outside the US are the words "graduate"
and "high school" linked in any way at all. Hence the distinction in my
earlier mail on the 2 million graduates produced per year by India, so that
those used to US terminology clearly understood what I meant by "graduate".

Now you qoute from my posts, but read again what the quotes say - do they
say anywhere at all that I consider high school and university to be the
same thing? NO. Do they say that in the US, you use the term "graduate" to
refer to high school leavers? YES. So how you get the idea that I consider
high school and uni to be the same, I don't know - I have neither stated,
nor implied such an idiotic idea.

Fact: In the US, the word "graduate" is applied to school, college and
university leavers without distinction.
High schools hold "graduation ceremonies"
Colleges hold "graduation ceremonies"
Universities hold "graduation ceremonies"

In most other countries, only the latter two hold graduation ceremonies, and
refer to past students as graduates or alumni.

Now this really is an unimportant issue - let's get back to the subject of
the Indian graduates who do so well away from their mother country.......

I grew up in a country where there was a large 3rd and 4th generation Indian
population, who were systematically discriminated against, but who, in the
most adverse of circumstance, proved themselves to be astute professional
and business people. I think the things that enable them to be so successful
was the fact that they had the attitudes that nothing was ever too dificult
to do, they would always find a solution, that they constantly strived to
improve themselves, and that nothing was ever too much trouble. These same
attitudes are displayed by the majority of new immigrants from India, and
this coupled with fact that other countries get to pick the cream of the
crop, means that one will arrive with the sort of figures quoted earlier.

Just wait for when China opens up completely, you'll see another crop of
strange statisical figures emerging.



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2003\05\09@195416 by Frank Collingwood

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Alex

Hit the nail on the head.

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2003\05\09@200849 by Bob Blick

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Frank Collingwood said:

> Now you qoute from my posts, but read again what the quotes say - do
> they say anywhere at all that I consider high school and university to
> be the same thing? NO. Do they say that in the US, you use the term
> "graduate" to refer to high school leavers? YES. So how you get the idea
> that I consider high school and uni to be the same, I don't know - I
> have neither stated, nor implied such an idiotic idea.
>
> Fact: In the US, the word "graduate" is applied to school, college and
> university leavers without distinction.

Hi Frank,

I took it as a putdown of education in the US - and I don't think I am
alone. Are you putting down education in the U.S.? Yes or no?

As far as this whole "leaver" thing, leaving means you did not complete,
and certainly would not graduate. If you complete high school, AND get a
diploma, then you have graduated high school. Graduate from high school,
you have a high school diploma. Graduate from university, you get a
university diploma. If a dog graduates from obedience school, he gets an
obedience school diploma.

Cheerful regards,

Bob

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2003\05\09@201057 by William Chops Westfield

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   However, in the US kids "graduate" from high school.

Not everyone.  A depressing number of people FAIL to graduate from "high
school."  And NO ONE says that graduating from high school results in "a
degree" - at best you get a diploma.  Most people graduate from HS at the
age of 17 or 18, BTW.  Someone said elsewhere school ends at 16?  Ouch,
sort of.  I suppose it all depends on what is expected to come next.

You left out pre-school graduations, too.  My youngest daughter will be
graduating from pre-school next month.  Going into kindergarten next year.


   Hence the distinction in my earlier mail on the 2 million graduates
   produced per year by India, so that those used to US terminology
   clearly understood what I meant by "graduate".

In the US, they'd be distinguished as "college graduates" or "high school
graduates."  It's not like anyone claims equivilence of of a US "HS
graduate" to a "(college or university) graduate" from anywhere else.


   this really is an unimportant issue - let's get back to the subject of
   the Indian graduates who do so well away from their mother country..

Is that what we were talking about?  Russell never confirmed it...

BillW

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2003\05\10@015048 by Frank Collingwood

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Hi William

Yup, and I also never said that HS graduates earn a degree. Like I said, I
made the distinction so that list members in the US knew what I was
referring to when I said graduates.

School systems are different everywhere - Where I grew up, like the US, most
kids finish school at the age of 17 or 18, if they don't drop out. Their
final year was termed the "Matric" year, and a Matric with an exemption
(Matriculation with university exemption) was usually required in order to
enter uni. In the UK, mainstream school ends at about 16, but kids then have
the option to go on and do 'A' levels in order to obtain uni entrance. there
are also a myriad of other post school qualifications too. However, no one
graduated until they finished their uni degree.


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2003\05\10@015112 by Frank Collingwood

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Hi Bob

Not a put down at all - A school leaver is a person who leaves school,
whether or not they have completed the full school curriculum. Like you
said, the word "graduate" in the US is used to apply to anyone (And in the
case of the dog example you gave, anything, LOL - I liked that one!) who
completes a certain curriculum, whereas almost everywhere else it applies
solely to people who complete a course of training at a tertiary education
institution. Hence I wanted to clarify what I meant by the term, as applying
only to university graduates.


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2003\05\10@020738 by William Chops Westfield

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It seems to me that we have a problem where we've effectively eliminated
any number of jobs for people where they need some moderate level of
education.  The sort of job where you might actually use stuff you learn
in high school english, algebra, trig, science, etc.  I mean, there's still
plenty of essentially unskilled labor positions, and there always seesm to
be a shortage of highly skilled people (except when they're being laid off
in droves, of course.)  But jobs like, say, clerical workers, have been
all but eliminated in most places.  So kids look at those college graduates
(with real degrees) working in fast food, and wonder why they should bother.

BillW

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2003\05\10@022632 by Frank Collingwood

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Yup - For example, have a look at a car assembly line in the 60's and today.
Higher output with fewer people. Essentially it's the bean counters and the
shareholders wanting a higher profit margin that drives technology and
automation.

What will happen when there is no longer a need for humans to design or
manufacture anything?

I've been working in Germany recently, and there are a lot of unemployed
people about over there. One of my German co-workers explained why - most
kids there who leave school and go into university study engineering,
commerce or law. Thus there are quite a few unemployed engineers, economists
and lawyers around, while a *LOT* of the IT workers in Germany are Brits, as
the UK turns out a lot of computer science graduates, so much so that for
almost every IT job advertised in the UK, the agencies receive in excess of
200 applicants.In my department, the ration of Germans to foreigners was
1:4.

> It seems to me that we have a problem where we've effectively eliminated
> any number of jobs for people where they need some moderate level of
> education.  The sort of job where you might actually use stuff you learn
> in high school english, algebra, trig, science, etc.  I mean, there's
still
> plenty of essentially unskilled labor positions, and there always seesm to
> be a shortage of highly skilled people (except when they're being laid off
> in droves, of course.)  But jobs like, say, clerical workers, have been
> all but eliminated in most places.  So kids look at those college
graduates
> (with real degrees) working in fast food, and wonder why they should
bother.
>
> BillW

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2003\05\10@033635 by Alex Holden

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On Sat, 2003-05-10 at 01:06, William Chops Westfield wrote:
> age of 17 or 18, BTW.  Someone said elsewhere school ends at 16?  Ouch,
> sort of.  I suppose it all depends on what is expected to come next.

Yes, in the UK compulsory education starts at age 5 (though many people,
myself included, go to Nursery or Play school at age 3 and start Infant
or Primary school a year early at 4). The two routes after that are
Primary school for 5 years or Infant school for 2 years and Junior
school for 3 years (I did the latter). After that everybody goes to
Secondary school at age 11 for 5 years, and studies for about 9
different GCSE qualifications in the final 2 years (some of the subjects
are compulsory and some optional). At this point (age 16) you are free
to go straight into (unskilled) work if you want to (many do).

Alternatively you can go to either College or Sixth Form (a Sixth Form
is basically a college that is attached to a secondary school rather
than independent) for two years and either do a vocational qualification
such as a GNVQ or a BTEC National Diploma (I did a BTEC ND in
electronics and microelectronics) or several A levels, which are like
GCSEs but harder. If you did particularly badly at GCSEs you can opt to
do an extra year at sixth form after secondary school to retake some of
the GCSEs you failed. Both vocational qualifications and A levels are
acceptable measures for University entry. Some people might try to tell
you that A levels are somehow "better"- don't believe it, I'm sure I had
much more fun and learnt more practically useful skills on my ND course
than most of my school friends who did A levels, and I didn't have any
trouble at all getting into Uni. The main disadvantage of a vocational
qualification is that it is less useful later on if you change your mind
about your choice of career, although the same can be said of most
degree programs.

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2003\05\10@123916 by Eric Bohlman

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5/9/03 7:08:47 PM, Bob Blick <RemoveMEbobblickspam_OUTspamKILLspamCOVAD.NET> wrote:

>As far as this whole "leaver" thing, leaving means you did not complete,
>and certainly would not graduate. If you complete high school, AND get a
>diploma, then you have graduated high school. Graduate from high school,
>you have a high school diploma. Graduate from university, you get a
>university diploma. If a dog graduates from obedience school, he gets an
>obedience school diploma.

This is a topic that frequently becomes a bone of contention on some Harry Potter groups that I
frequent.

As I understand it, the US is one of the few places in the Western world where students who
complete their course of secondary education receive a diploma/degree/what have you *that's issued
by the school they attended*.  Students in, say, the UK, simply "leave" school when they've
finished their course of study.  Toward the end of that course, they normally take examinations,
administered by some sort of national accrediting body, *not* by the schools they attend, which
result in the award of various qualifications.  These are *not* comparable to admissions tests like
the SAT or ACT; even students who don't plan to continue their education past secondary school take
them.

"Graduation" actually implies receiving a credential from the *school* one attends.  Outside the
US, that normally happens only when one has completed a post-secondary course of study.

The practical implication of all this is that, since the US doesn't have a standardized secondary
curriculum at the national or even state level, the requirements to receive a secondary diploma
vary from school to school.  In the UK, OTOH, the requirements for getting a particular
qualification (say an A-level in a particular subject) are the same for everyone.  Some schools may
do a better or worse job of preparing their students for it, but the requirements don't vary from
school to school.

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2003\05\10@133230 by Peter Barick

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Dear Frank (prior Anonymous),

Seems to be a largely semantic issue here. First try not to be so
defensive as I and others were/are trying to help clear up what appeared
to be a queer concept adduced by you, namely:
". Do they say that in the US, you use the term "graduate" to refer to
high school leavers? YES."

I must ask again, what is your factual source of that??

In my last reply I gave the basis of my credential to respond and
challenge, which you belittled in subsequent post. And now I'll state
more directly that the above quote is Poppycock, to use a Brit
expression which you surely grasp.  ;-)

I'll repeat: In the U.S., "Degrees to Graduates." Period!

Again, speaking as a U.S. educator of higher Ed, there is a concept of
student leaving university/college (before completion) for tracking
purposes and these are sometimes ref'd to as "stop outs," "drop outs,"
as the case may apply -- never "graduates."

I hope the above helps clarify. As an aside I will bring this rather
apparent ambiguity to the attention of my peers when in discussions
about external perceptions of U.S. Ed.

Cheers, ol' chap,

Peter
---------------------------------------------------------
>>> EraseMEfrankspamspamspamBeGoneCOLLINGWOOD.ME.UK 05/09/03 06:49PM >>>
Hi Bob

Not at all, and having attended both, I am well aware that high school
is
not unversity. However, in the US kids "graduate" from high school. I
am not
implying any link betwwen high school and universtiy at all, merely
stating
that fact that in very few countries outside the US are the words
"graduate"
and "high school" linked in any way at all. Hence the distinction in
my
earlier mail on the 2 million graduates produced per year by India, so
that
those used to US terminology clearly understood what I meant by
"graduate".

Now you qoute from my posts, but read again what the quotes say - do
they
say anywhere at all that I consider high school and university to be
the
same thing? NO. Do they say that in the US, you use the term "graduate"
to
refer to high school leavers? YES. So how you get the idea that I
consider
high school and uni to be the same, I don't know - I have neither
stated,
nor implied such an idiotic idea.

[clip to end]

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2003\05\10@143633 by John Hansen

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And just to muddy the waters further . . .

Both of my kids have the diplomas they received when they graduated from
kindergarten and when on to the first grade!

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2003\05\10@195256 by Frank Collingwood

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So Peter, are you trying to say that you did not "graduate" from HS? An
interesting concept, as other posters from the US have stated clearly that
kids even "graduate" from kindergarten in the US. So your assertion that
"degrees only to graduates" means that, in your opinion, Johns kids should
now have degrees, as they are graduates? And BillW's kids? Are you trying to
deny that you refer to kids who have successfully completed high school as
graduates? So, to use a Brit turn of phrase (Please don't assume things, the
.uk address means nothing, I'm not in the UK), your assertion of "degrees to
graduates" is poppycock , otherwise the dog in Bob's example would have a
degree.

You missed my point entirely, and are missing it again - so one last time,
so maybe you understand.........In the US, you use the term "graduate" very
loosely - as Bob has pointed out, even dogs  "graduate" from obedience
school. In most of the rest of the world, the term "graduate" is applied
only to people who have completed a course of education at a tertiary
education institution. Because the term "graduate" is so ambiguous in the
US, I was trying to make my meaning clear.

Yes, it is mainly a question of semantics - Everywhere where I have lived,
school leavers are those who successfully finished their high school
program. Drop outs are those who have fallen by the wayside. Graduates are
those who have completed a degree or similar. As other posters have pointed
out, in the US, leaver and drop-out mean the same thing, one can graduate
from kindergarten, junior school, high school, college, university or dog
obedience school. With your insistence on "degrees to graduates", you're
effectively saying that all of the above are awarded degrees?

Oh, by the way, I have also *NEVER* implied that degrees are awarded to
non-graduates......

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2003\05\11@011645 by William Chops Westfield

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Of course, the whole discussion is a bit ... accademic.  Look back in the
logs for the job search discussion for lots of discussion about how even
something like a "real" EE degree doesn't say very much about anyones
abilities to perform any particular real job.

BillW

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2003\05\12@085127 by John Ferrell

face picon face
Is anyone taking this thread serious?

The word 'graduate' seems to originate in Latin and implies measurement.

The only entities in my life that have been concerned with verifying
graduation have been educational institutions. The most emphatic were
"Graduate Schools" who were verifying 30 year old records.

The most impressive hiring policy I ever encountered was at a telephone
company.... The first thing they examined was your attendance record. They
figured they could use you somewhere if you were willing to come to work
reliably.

My personal observation is that mankind seems to get smarter in spite of the
government systems rather than because of them.
Of course, that assumes we can survive those government climates!

John Ferrell
6241 Phillippi Rd
Julian NC 27283
Phone: (336)685-9606
spamBeGonejohnferrellspamKILLspamearthlink.net
Dixie Competition Products
NSRCA 479 AMA 4190  W8CCW
"My Competition is Not My Enemy"

{Original Message removed}

2003\05\12@133508 by Peter Barick

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face
After the weekend I see Frank is still yammering so ...

>>> .....frankspam_OUTspamCOLLINGWOOD.ME.UK 05/10/03 06:40PM >>>

>Johns kids should now have degrees, as they are graduates?
>And BillW's kids? Are you trying to deny that you refer ...

Mostly ridiculous, Frank. Look, this issue has been expanded by others.
I take no
solace with that. My frame of reference was/is U.S. schools of Higher
Educ.
If you and others want to expand it to "dogs" then have at it Frank,
others. "Arrf!"

> to use a Brit turn of phrase (Please don't assume things, the
>.uk address means nothing, I'm not in the UK)
Ah, but I *was* to assume name from that very header. &%$@! Cherry
well.
Possibly a pseudonym was used. Headers are used by some that way. And
sometimes a contraction may spell out something other, say
"mary@abc...,"
where it really belongs to Marvin Ary. You get the point. Not so
queer.
Looking at my header, about the only thing for certain is from an EDU

>You missed my point entirely ... In the US, you use the term
"graduate" very
loosely ... even dogs  "graduate" from obedience school.
That frivoulous, MOST understand it. I sure it was used as an extreeme
case.

>In most of the rest of the world, the term "graduate" is applied
>only to people who have completed a course of education at a tertiary
>education institution.
OK, now I better see your perspective. And by "tertiary," meaning
"third level,"
this implies higher educ, such as college or university. Got it, ol'
chap.

Further, another post elucidated this point: "Leaving school" for say,
Brits. Applied
here in the U.S. may largely mean a "drop out," for one who does not
complete, as
it is the institution that awards the degree, hence Graduation. Seems
elsewhere
degrees are awarded on the basis of a national testing body, passing
such awards
one a degree. So far, okay, Frank?

Let me ask Frank's opinion of degrees and graduation being a
national/regional
function or, as in the U.S., being done at the institutional level. A
preference there,
and why? I've only know the one system. I'm also aware (of levels of
funding, types
of outcomes by further Educ enrolls.) of disparities between various
state/city
districts and even local differences within some large cities.

The point being that curriculum levels differ, as do community tastes,
it's not all the same.
Some would balk at that, but they should also consider that national
tests for entering
post secondary school are administered and so, I expect, all schools
have to address
appropriate curriculum to meet those enterance norms. Hope this helps.

>Because the term "graduate" is so ambiguous in the US,
> I was trying to make my meaning clear.

Sorry, I seemed to have missed the "clarity" in all that.

>Yes, it is mainly a question of semantics - Everywhere where I have
lived,
>school leavers are those who successfully finished their high school
>program. Drop outs are those who have fallen by the wayside.

OK, but "leavers" is not a widely - or accepted - used term for HS
grads. It connotes
one Not successfully completing (tests too) a program, as doing so
would denote "Graduation."
And really, why should it be otherwise when one can say "graduate" or
"drop out, flunk out"
and cover the whole class. Here "leavers" is NOT in common usage,
certainly.
But that's ok if You choose otherwise, as long as clarified - some
place.  ;-)

>Graduates are those who have completed a degree or similar.
Okay.

> in the US, leaver and drop-out mean the same thing

Sorry, Frank, wrong.

>one can graduate from kindergarten, junior school, high school,
college, university or dog
>obedience school.

These are not in the same class. I don't see the point except for
hyperbole.  :-))

> With your insistence on "degrees to graduates", you're
>effectively saying that all of the above are awarded degrees?

Yes for college abd Univ's.

>Oh, by the way, I have also *NEVER* implied that degrees are awarded
to
>non-graduates......

Okay, kool, Frank. Whatever. But let's keep a good spirit about this.

[clip prior content to end]

Peter, who hopes this is finished!

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2003\05\12@144826 by Peter Barick

flavicon
face
[This is a repeat with better formatting.]

After the weekend I see Frank is still yammering so ...

>>> TakeThisOuTfrank.....spamTakeThisOuTCOLLINGWOOD.ME.UK 05/10/03 06:40PM >>>

>Johns kids should now have degrees, as they are graduates?
>And BillW's kids? Are you trying to deny that you refer ...

Mostly ridiculous, Frank. Look, this issue has been expanded by others.
I take no solace with that. My frame of reference was/is U.S. schools of
Higher Educ. If you and others want to expand it to "dogs" then have at
it Frank, others. "Arrf!"

> to use a Brit turn of phrase (Please don't assume things, the
>.uk address means nothing, I'm not in the UK)
Ah, but I *was* to assume name from that very header. &%$@! Cherry
well. Possibly a pseudonym was used. Headers are used by some that way.
And sometimes a contraction may spell out something other, say
"mary@abc...," where it really belongs to Marvin Ary. You get the point.
Not so queer. Looking at my header, about the only thing for certain is
from an place of education.

>You missed my point entirely ... In the US, you use the term
"graduate" very
>loosely ... even dogs  "graduate" from obedience school.

That frivoulous, MOST understand it. I sure it was used as an extreeme
case.

>In most of the rest of the world, the term "graduate" is applied
>only to people who have completed a course of education at a tertiary
>education institution.

OK, now I better see your perspective. And by "tertiary," meaning
"third level," this implies higher educ, such as college or university.
Got it, ol' chap.

Further, another post elucidated this point: "Leaving school" for say,
Brits. Applied here in the U.S. may largely mean a "drop out," for one
who does not complete, as it is the institution that awards the degree,
hence Graduation. Seems elsewhere degrees are awarded on the basis of a
national testing body, passing such awards one a degree. So far, okay,
Frank?

Let me ask Frank's opinion of degrees and graduation being a
national/regional function or, as in the U.S., being done at the
institutional level. A preference there, and why? I've only know the one
system. I'm also aware (of levels of funding, types of outcomes by
further Educ enrolls.) of disparities between various state/city
districts and even local differences within some large cities.

The point being that curriculum levels differ, as do community tastes,
it's not all the same. Some would balk at that, but they should also
consider that national tests for entering post secondary school are
administered and so, I expect, all schools have to address appropriate
curriculum to meet those enterance norms. Hope this helps.

>Because the term "graduate" is so ambiguous in the US,
> I was trying to make my meaning clear.

Sorry, I seemed to have missed the "clarity" in all that.

>Yes, it is mainly a question of semantics - Everywhere where I have
lived,
>school leavers are those who successfully finished their high school
>program. Drop outs are those who have fallen by the wayside.

OK, but "leavers" is not a widely - or accepted - used term for HS
grads. It connotes one Not successfully completing (tests  too) a
program, as doing so would denote "Graduation." And really, why should
it be otherwise when one can say "graduate" or "drop out, flunk out" and
cover the whole class. Here "leavers" is NOT in common usage, certainly.
But that's ok if You choose otherwise, as long as clarified -- some
place.  ;-)

>Graduates are those who have completed a degree or similar.
Okay.

> in the US, leaver and drop-out mean the same thing

Sorry, Frank, wrong.

>one can graduate from kindergarten, junior school, high school,
college, university or dog
>obedience school.

These are not in the same class. I don't see the point except for
hyperbole.  :-))

> With your insistence on "degrees to graduates", you're
>effectively saying that all of the above are awarded degrees?

Yes for college and Univ's.

>Oh, by the way, I have also *NEVER* implied that degrees are awarded
to
>non-graduates......

Okay, kool, Frank. Whatever. But let's keep a good spirit about this.

[clip prior content to end]

Peter, who hopes this is finished!

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