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'[OT]: Un-frigging-believable'
2003\11\25@235714 by Jinx

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www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=3890864

The front wheels of the handcart are just entering Heck ;-)

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2003\11\26@021656 by Matt Pobursky

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hehehe... you ought to try actually living in the U.S. Seems like the
lawyers and PC police have taken over the country. Can't swing a dead
cat without clubbing a bleeding heart liberal either.

That article doesn't surprise me a bit, sadly. I am starting to think
Oz or NZ might be an attractive place to retire. It seems you guys
still have a sense of humor at least.


On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 17:55:06 +1300, Jinx wrote:
> http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=3890864
>
> The front wheels of the handcart are just entering Heck ;-)
>
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2003\11\26@025301 by David VanHorn

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At 01:15 AM 11/26/2003 -0600, Matt Pobursky wrote:

>hehehe... you ought to try actually living in the U.S. Seems like the
>lawyers and PC police have taken over the country. Can't swing a dead
>cat without clubbing a bleeding heart liberal either.
>
>That article doesn't surprise me a bit, sadly. I am starting to think
>Oz or NZ might be an attractive place to retire. It seems you guys
>still have a sense of humor at least.
>
>
>On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 17:55:06 +1300, Jinx wrote:
>> www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=3890864
>>
>> The front wheels of the handcart are just entering Heck ;-)

We will now use "dominant" and "submissive" on all products.

<VVVBG>

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2003\11\26@030545 by Jake Anderson

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nah, we just whisper quieter ;->

-----Original Message-----
From: pic microcontroller discussion list
[PICLISTspamKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU]On Behalf Of Matt Pobursky
Sent: Wednesday, 26 November 2003 6:16 PM
To: .....PICLISTKILLspamspam.....MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [OT]: Un-frigging-believable


hehehe... you ought to try actually living in the U.S. Seems like the
lawyers and PC police have taken over the country. Can't swing a dead
cat without clubbing a bleeding heart liberal either.

That article doesn't surprise me a bit, sadly. I am starting to think
Oz or NZ might be an attractive place to retire. It seems you guys
still have a sense of humor at least.


On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 17:55:06 +1300, Jinx wrote:
> http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=3890864
>
> The front wheels of the handcart are just entering Heck ;-)
>
> --
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2003\11\26@030753 by Sean Alcorn - PIC Stuff

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On 26 Nov 2003, at 18:50, David VanHorn wrote:

>> That article doesn't surprise me a bit, sadly. I am starting to think
>> Oz or NZ might be an attractive place to retire. It seems you guys
>> still have a sense of humor at least.

I can't speak for NZ, but Australia is marching down the path of the US.

I heard that my state of NSW is second in number of litigations per
capita only to California. Not sure if it's true or not - but I would
not be surprised if it is.

Cheers,

Sean

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2003\11\26@034151 by Luis Moreira

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I think that the only thing to do is to start counter suing alleging that it
caused distress to the head of that department, that people think is a
racist. Is very sad to see that instead of worrying about the real issues
the authorities are wasting there time with this. The funny thing about this
is, that everyone I Know would not care at all about something like this, so
who is marching this forward.

               Luis

{Original Message removed}

2003\11\26@041717 by Peter Moreton

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Wed, 26 Nov 2003 17:55:06 +1300, Jinx wrote:
>> www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=3890864
>>
>> The front wheels of the handcart are just entering Heck ;-)

> We will now use "dominant" and "submissive" on all products.


Maybe the PC police would prefer:

Master = "Node requiring Diversity Training"
Slave = "Assertiveness Challenged Node"

It's all getting a bit scary actually. The same is going on in the UK,
in local government especially. Even big ultra-conservative corporates
(I used to work for JPMorgan, about as conservative as you can get!) are
sending staff on 'Diversity Training', not because they believe in it,
but to preclude law-suits from useless people who ought to be fired, but
hide behind this Diversity/PC nonsense.


Peter Moreton

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2003\11\26@042131 by David VanHorn

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At 08:40 AM 11/26/2003 +0000, Luis Moreira wrote:

>I think that the only thing to do is to start counter suing alleging that it
>caused distress to the head of that department, that people think is a
>racist. Is very sad to see that instead of worrying about the real issues
>the authorities are wasting there time with this. The funny thing about this
>is, that everyone I Know would not care at all about something like this, so
>who is marching this forward.

People who need a real job/life/etc.

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2003\11\26@042754 by Russell McMahon

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> That article doesn't surprise me a bit, sadly. I am starting to think
> Oz or NZ might be an attractive place to retire. It seems you guys
> still have a sense of humor at least.

We are working very hard at making it not so.

       RM

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2003\11\26@043831 by Luis Moreira

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and don't forget easy money.

-----Original Message-----
From: David VanHorn [TakeThisOuTdvanhornEraseMEspamspam_OUTCEDAR.NET]
Sent: 26 November 2003 09:21
To: RemoveMEPICLISTspamTakeThisOuTMITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [OT]: Un-frigging-believable


At 08:40 AM 11/26/2003 +0000, Luis Moreira wrote:

>I think that the only thing to do is to start counter suing alleging that
it
>caused distress to the head of that department, that people think is a
>racist. Is very sad to see that instead of worrying about the real issues
>the authorities are wasting there time with this. The funny thing about
this
>is, that everyone I Know would not care at all about something like this,
so
>who is marching this forward.

People who need a real job/life/etc.

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2003\11\26@044038 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>> www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=3890864
>>
>> The front wheels of the handcart are just entering Heck ;-)

> We will now use "dominant" and "submissive" on all products.

Actually I think we should still mark them just "M" and "S", in-house still
master and slave, if anyone asks then it is "Main" and "Secondary", or
perhaps even "Marks And Spencer" (a large, well thought of department store
in the UK) :))

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2003\11\26@044040 by Russell McMahon

face
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> Wed, 26 Nov 2003 17:55:06 +1300, Jinx wrote:
> >> http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=3890864

> >> The front wheels of the handcart are just entering Heck ;-)

I wonder how that translates into Russian :-) ? (or Spanish (Las ruedas
delanteras del handcart son el heck que entra justo ; -) ) or ....)

Maybe that could have been "The first ice crystals are forming on the Styx"*
:-)


> > We will now use "dominant" and "submissive" on all products.

Howabout

   Master / Servant

Would allow observance of this inanity with some hope of still remembering
what it was each did.
Hopefully the PC brigade won't catch up with the unacceptable evils of
servility for a few decades yet.
JK flip-flops would never again sound quite the same though.



   RM


* "los primeros cristales de hielo están formando en el Styx"

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2003\11\26@050154 by Thys

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I am gonna log a world wide complaint that some companies were made rich due
to efforts made by me and my family members before me and we never were
properly compensated, why else would we still be as poor as we are;=)

Wanna piece of the pie?

T

{Original Message removed}

2003\11\26@061822 by Dennis Crawley

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In Spanish the word Master is bad translated as "Maestro" instead of "Amo"
or "Seqor". Maestro is a Teacher, so the real meaning came innadvertily
soft. In argentine slang, young people, (or in informal chat), call "Master"
to who is a winner,...(a future looser, in fact)

That's the good of my country. We produce 30 psycologist a year against 4
engineers. So we are more equiped to understand reallity, acept it, and
change its meaning than transform it. :)

Going back to the concept:
Does the HDD set it as Master, actually "gives" orders or commands to the
Slave?
Isn't the HDD controller who command both?

I think scsi priority is a better nomenclature.




{Original Message removed}

2003\11\26@073217 by Hazelwood Lyle

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face
We went through the same problem a few years back with industrial robots.
When two robots are run from a single controller, the "lead-follow" relationship
was made clear by labeling the robots "Master" and "Slave". This has been
unacceptable practice for about five years now.

This was hardly offensive compared to:
The six axes of the robot have been identified as "S,L,U,R,B,T". These letters
often come up on error screens. The earlier 4 axis models did not have the "R" or "B" axes, this made for an embarrassing bit of name calling when the remaining 4 letters were displayed.


Lyle

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Jinx [RemoveMEjoecolquittTakeThisOuTspamspamCLEAR.NET.NZ]
>
>http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=3890864
>
>The front wheels of the handcart are just entering Heck ;-)

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2003\11\26@073840 by Jake Anderson

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I dunno its just words. Dont you americans have a thing for free speach and
free press and all that jazz?

You guys seem almost as sensitive as the germans are about their history and
that is still living memory.


{Original Message removed}

2003\11\26@082940 by Spehro Pefhany

picon face
At 02:50 AM 11/26/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>At 01:15 AM 11/26/2003 -0600, Matt Pobursky wrote:
>
> >hehehe... you ought to try actually living in the U.S. Seems like the
> >lawyers and PC police have taken over the country. Can't swing a dead
> >cat without clubbing a bleeding heart liberal either.
> >
> >That article doesn't surprise me a bit, sadly. I am starting to think
> >Oz or NZ might be an attractive place to retire. It seems you guys
> >still have a sense of humor at least.
> >
> >
> >On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 17:55:06 +1300, Jinx wrote:
> >> www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=3890864
> >>
> >> The front wheels of the handcart are just entering Heck ;-)
>
>We will now use "dominant" and "submissive" on all products.
>
><VVVBG>

I think that a "don't ask, don't tell" policy on cable gender preferences
is in order.

Best regards,

Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..."            "The Journey is the reward"
RemoveMEspeffKILLspamspaminterlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com

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2003\11\26@091544 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>I think that a "don't ask, don't tell" policy on
>cable gender preferences is in order.

<sigh> I guess we better not tell them that there are hermaphrodite
connectors as well ;)

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2003\11\26@095542 by Scott Fraser

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At 08:55 PM 11/25/03, Jinx wrote:
>http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=3890864
>
>The front wheels of the handcart are just entering Heck ;-)


for those in the US, maybe we can go to the Hillary and Bill
combination.  With Hillary replacing master

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2003\11\26@095752 by Bob Barr

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On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 04:21:19 -0500, David VanHorn wrote:

>At 08:40 AM 11/26/2003 +0000, Luis Moreira wrote:
>
>>I think that the only thing to do is to start counter suing alleging that it
>>caused distress to the head of that department, that people think is a
>>racist. Is very sad to see that instead of worrying about the real issues
>>the authorities are wasting there time with this. The funny thing about this
>>is, that everyone I Know would not care at all about something like this, so
>>who is marching this forward.
>
>People who need a real job/life/etc.

Always remember the old saying:

If you're not part of the solution, there's good money to be made in
exacerbating the problem.


Regards, Bob

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2003\11\26@101005 by Keith L. Kovala

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> Always remember the old saying:
>
> If you're not part of the solution, there's good money to be
> made in exacerbating the problem.
>

This will always stick in my mind after missing the largest opportunity to
prey on people's ignorance and fears during the whole Y2K thing.  I could
have made a mint had I not had any morals, or didn't tell people about the
truth of it's scope (or lack there of).

Anyways, this whole Master / Slave debate is something I mentioned years
ago.  Someone will someday come forward saying it's oppressive.  Where are
these people's backbones?  I think criteria for immigration into the U.S.
should be bring your backbone.  If you forgot it, go back and get it, or
turn tail and don't come back.

Keith L. Kovala
@spam@klk@spam@spamspam_OUTrenderedelement.com

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2003\11\26@105122 by William Chops Westfield

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I think I've seen a complaint agains "male" and "female" as
applied to connectors, but maybe it was just a discussion...

BillW

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2003\11\26@115018 by Herbert Graf

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> http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=3890864
>
> The front wheels of the handcart are just entering Heck ;-)

       Wow, another example of PC going TOO FAR. What's next? Renaming the
offspring of chickens since "chicks" offends "some" people? It's just sad
that people are this stupid. TTYL

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2003\11\26@115225 by Mike Hord

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I think we're okay here- most of the people dumb enough to make
a big issue about this are also never likely to crack a computer case
or look at a uP datasheet.

Mike H.

>http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=3890864
>
>The front wheels of the handcart are just entering Heck ;-)
>
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2003\11\26@125702 by Chuck Hellebuyck

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Maybe we should call them "government" and "taxpayer", the meaning is
the same.

> >{Original Message removed}

2003\11\26@134901 by Mark Jones

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The NEW WORLD ORDER is everywhere :-)

----- Original Message -----
From: Russell McMahon <.....apptechspamRemoveMEPARADISE.NET.NZ>
To: <RemoveMEPICLISTspamspamBeGoneMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2003 3:17 AM
Subject: Re: [OT]: Un-frigging-believable


{Quote hidden}

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2003\11\26@145335 by Jinx

face picon face
BTW, a friend of mine thought it so un-frigging-believable he
thought it to be urban myth. He checked. Apparently true

More details and commentary

http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/outrage/master.asp

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2003\11\26@145751 by Bob Blick

face
flavicon
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Chuck Hellebuyck said:
> Maybe we should call them "government" and "taxpayer", the meaning is
> the same.
>

Or perhaps "administrator" and "administrative assistant" ?

Cheers,

Bob

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2003\11\26@150415 by Keith L. Kovala

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If we're going to get rid of Master and Slave because of the APPARENT
connotation, then shall we also get rid of MasterCard?  Is it not asserting
itself over others by use of the term Master?

This has just gone too far!  My suggestion, the vendors should just quit
dealing with L.A. County and see how they like it when none of their
equipment works and/or can't get replacements!

Keith L. Kovala
@spam@klkRemoveMEspamEraseMErenderedelement.com

> {Original Message removed}

2003\11\26@154611 by Andrew Warren

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Jinx <EraseMEPICLISTspam@spam@mitvma.mit.edu> wrote:

> www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=3
> 8908 64 [which described the City of Los Angeles's recent email to
> its computer-equipment suppliers asking them to avoid using the
> term "Master/Slave" in product descriptions]

   I'm surprised by the piclist's response (Lawrence Lile's
   excepted) to this.

   If your spouse told you, "There's this thing you do that bothers
   me; I'd be happier if you stopped," I don't think many of you
   would respond with, "Your feelings are stupid; I'm going to keep
   doing it because you really shouldn't be bothered by it."

   Or, hmm... Engineers ARE stereotypically unskilled at social
   interaction; maybe the stereotype is accurate and most of you
   WOULD say that to your husband or wife.

   In any case, telling your CUSTOMERS that you're going to ignore
   their feelings because they're illogical/stupid/liberal/PC/etc is
   just bad business.  If you can make a customer happier by doing
   something as simple as changing two words, why wouldn't you?  It
   doesn't matter AT ALL whether you think the request is logical
   or necessary.

   Besides, Master/Slave can usually be replaced without loss of
   meaning, and in fact, the replacement can often be MORE
   meaningful.  PC hard disk drives, for instance, are more
   accurately described as Primary/Secondary than Master/Slave,
   right?

   -Andy

=== Andrew Warren -- @spam@aiwspam_OUTspam.....cypress.com
=== Principal Design Engineer
=== Cypress Semiconductor Corporation
===
=== Opinions expressed above do not
=== necessarily represent those of
=== Cypress Semiconductor Corporation

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2003\11\26@160309 by John J. McDonough

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Andrew Warren" <aiwspamBeGonespamCYPRESS.COM>
Subject: Re: [OT]: Un-frigging-believable


> If you can make a customer happier by doing something
> as simple as changing two words, why wouldn't you?

I have to agree with this, pretty strongly in fact.

>  Besides, Master/Slave can usually be replaced without loss of
>  meaning, and in fact, the replacement can often be MORE
>  meaningful.  PC hard disk drives, for instance, are more
>  accurately described as Primary/Secondary than Master/Slave,
>  right?

Unfortunately, no.  The implication you are making here is that my secondary
drive, which contains my hard earned data, is somehow less important than my
primary drive, which contains stupid Windows which I can reinstall
(relatively) easily.  The drives aren't primary or secondary, they simply
play different roles in the communication.

Changes to terms like that can't be made lightly.  To change the terms in
all places they are used without introducing more ambiguity would require
making each change carefully (i.e. differently) or simply changing to
something relatively meaningless in the context.  So changing to
government/taxpayer would be a lot less risky than primary/secondary.  (I
actually like Hilary/Bill better, but the customer in this case would simply
come unglued).

72/73 de WB8RCR    http://www.qsl.net/wb8rcr
didileydadidah     QRP-L #1446 Code Warriors #35

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2003\11\26@162426 by Mauricio Jancic

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>>    I'm surprised by the piclist's response (Lawrence Lile's
>>    excepted) to this.
>>
>>    If your spouse told you, "There's this thing you do that bothers
>>    me; I'd be happier if you stopped," I don't think many of you
>>    would respond with, "Your feelings are stupid; I'm going to keep
>>    doing it because you really shouldn't be bothered by it."

       I know (altough womens never stop surprising us) that my will
never make a stupid request to me. I think that "master / slave"
terminology is something that should bother anyone. This is a stryctly
technical term and should not be intrepreted as a "discriminatory" word.
If a customer makes a request wich is really stupid I state to him that
that request has no sense and there is no reason to aply it. If he
continues with that idea, I do as he request, but only for him, not for
the rest of my customers...

Best regards

Mauricio

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2003\11\26@164744 by Jinx

face picon face
>  In any case, telling your CUSTOMERS that you're going to ignore
>  their feelings because they're illogical/stupid/liberal/PC/etc is
>  just bad business.

Of course, I'd change whatever they wanted. They're paying the bills,
they can have whatever labels they want, whatever colour, whatever
shape. Even little smiley faces dotting the I's too, and I'll curtsey, bow
and doff my cap on delivery no matter how nuts I think they are. And I've
had the occassional customer who's a sandwich short of a picnic, like
we all have

But on on the personal side, I think people get upset because it's often
a small vocal pissy minority with ill-founded "issues". For example
feminists who objected to "manual", even though the "man" content
has nothing to do with "male". Paging Dr Phil, paging Dr Phil

Slavery wasn't and isn't exclusively white-on-black. Does that person
have an active role in trying to stamp out current African / Middle
Eastern black-on-black, European white-on-white, or Asian slavery ?
Do they campaign against oppressive regimes ? If they can get such
a bug up their *ss about a label maybe they should. And maybe look
into their own roots. How much public atonement could we expect
from this person if they found out that their ancestors practised slavery ?
Probably not much at all. I think some people just enjoy wallowing in
poor-me-poor-me-look-what-they-did self-pity

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2003\11\26@170446 by D. Jay Newman

flavicon
face
> >  In any case, telling your CUSTOMERS that you're going to ignore
> >  their feelings because they're illogical/stupid/liberal/PC/etc is
> >  just bad business.
>
> Of course, I'd change whatever they wanted. They're paying the bills,
> they can have whatever labels they want, whatever colour, whatever
> shape. Even little smiley faces dotting the I's too, and I'll curtsey, bow
> and doff my cap on delivery no matter how nuts I think they are. And I've
> had the occassional customer who's a sandwich short of a picnic, like
> we all have

Agreed.

However, Master/Slave describes certain things *very* well. In the SPI
protocol, the master *owns* the bus.

Perhaps Server/Client could be used.

But given the speed in which the US (including engineers) have jumped
on the Metric system (even though the US has been officially metric for
many years now), I don't expect such terms to change quickly.

> But on on the personal side, I think people get upset because it's often
> a small vocal pissy minority with ill-founded "issues". For example
> feminists who objected to "manual", even though the "man" content
> has nothing to do with "male". Paging Dr Phil, paging Dr Phil

From the initial article, it was a single person who was offended.

At some point people need to get real. Some of the terms we use are
pretty invasive in an industry. And there are some things I *won't*
change even though some people are offended by it. I try to be sensitive
to people's feelings, but we all have to realize that other people
may have different beliefs and have different reactions to the same thing.
--
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2003\11\26@170859 by Tony Nixon

flavicon
picon face
Maybe I can sue and counter sue myself adfinitum. I'd make millions...

Regards

Tony

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2003\11\26@174653 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> Perhaps Server/Client could be used.

Yeah, great! I can never remember which is the client and which the
server! IIRC the classic client/server architecture has the client side
(user interaface) running on (for instance) an X-Windows server :)

Wouter van Ooijen

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2003\11\26@180807 by David VanHorn

flavicon
face
>
>Slavery wasn't and isn't exclusively white-on-black.


One point that's frequently glossed over, is the buyers in africa were primarily white, but the sellers were frequently black..

Anyway, I think we're nearing the moderation limit in this direction. :)

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2003\11\26@181014 by David VanHorn

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At 09:06 AM 11/27/2003 +1100, Tony Nixon wrote:

>Maybe I can sue and counter sue myself adfinitum. I'd make millions...

The lawyers would, anyway.

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2003\11\26@184625 by Jake Anderson

flavicon
face
the IDE system already has a Primary and Secondary Channel. IE my data drive
is my Primary Master drive (doze boots off my spiffy 15000RPM X15 *drool*).

Thing is its just a word. At what point are astronomers no longer allowed to
call the night sky "black". Or a Whiteout in fog. "The black depths of
space" "A Black day for us all"
where do you draw the line??

If my girlfriend asked me to leave the toilet seat down I would. If she
asked me not to Moo when talking about her mother..... well yeah I'd
probably do that too. If she asked me to edit thousands of pages of
documentation and re-tool production lines just because somebody is overly
sensitive I wouldn't.

{Original Message removed}

2003\11\26@185037 by Herbert Graf

flavicon
face
> -----Original Message-----
> From: pic microcontroller discussion list
> [RemoveMEPICLISTEraseMEspamKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU]On Behalf Of Keith L. Kovala
> Sent: November 26, 2003 15:03
> To: spamBeGonePICLISTspam_OUTspamRemoveMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Subject: Re: [OT]: Un-frigging-believable
>
>
> If we're going to get rid of Master and Slave because of the APPARENT
> connotation, then shall we also get rid of MasterCard?  Is it not
> asserting
> itself over others by use of the term Master?
>
> This has just gone too far!  My suggestion, the vendors should just quit
> dealing with L.A. County and see how they like it when none of their
> equipment works and/or can't get replacements!

       I prefer something a colleage of mine suggested: sell both. The "normal"
equipment labeled master/slave is normal price, the "modified" version is
more, say 1.1 times the "normal" price. If anyone asks for the "reason" just
say that there was work done to do the conversion, and you deserve to be
compensated. TTYL



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2003\11\26@185242 by Herbert Graf

flavicon
face
> -----Original Message-----
> From: pic microcontroller discussion list
> [PICLISTspam@spam@MITVMA.MIT.EDU]On Behalf Of Andrew Warren
> Sent: November 26, 2003 15:50
> To: EraseMEPICLISTRemoveMEspamSTOPspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Subject: Re: [OT]: Un-frigging-believable
>
>
> Jinx <RemoveMEPICLISTKILLspamspamTakeThisOuTmitvma.mit.edu> wrote:
>
> > www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=3
> > 8908 64 [which described the City of Los Angeles's recent email to
> > its computer-equipment suppliers asking them to avoid using the
> > term "Master/Slave" in product descriptions]
>
>     I'm surprised by the piclist's response (Lawrence Lile's
>     excepted) to this.

       Our reaction to this isn't due to just this occurrence, it's the "trend" to
PC everything out there. If you let this slip, where does it end? It's a
very slippery slope, and, in my opinion, this one is too far down that
slope. TTYL


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2003\11\26@185450 by Herbert Graf

flavicon
face
> > Perhaps Server/Client could be used.
>
> Yeah, great! I can never remember which is the client and which the
> server! IIRC the classic client/server architecture has the client side
> (user interaface) running on (for instance) an X-Windows server :)
>
> Wouter van Ooijen

       Yes, that one bit be pretty badly when I was first starting with Unix. TTYL

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2003\11\26@185903 by Bob Blick

face
flavicon
face
Herbert Graf said:

>         I prefer something a colleage of mine suggested: sell both. The
> "normal"
> equipment labeled master/slave is normal price, the "modified" version
> is more, say 1.1 times the "normal" price.

Yes, have a "normal" one that has drives labeled master/slave and a
"queer" one with dominant/submissive drives :-)

Cheerful regards,

Bob

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2003\11\26@190931 by David VanHorn

flavicon
face
You know... I'm really offended that the air I'm breathing is "Used air".
Isn't there someone I can sue for forcing me to breathe this second rate, virus riddled junk?

:)

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2003\11\26@190932 by Herbert Graf

flavicon
face
> Herbert Graf said:
>
> >         I prefer something a colleage of mine suggested: sell both. The
> > "normal"
> > equipment labeled master/slave is normal price, the "modified" version
> > is more, say 1.1 times the "normal" price.
>
> Yes, have a "normal" one that has drives labeled master/slave and a
> "queer" one with dominant/submissive drives :-)
>
> Cheerful regards,
>
> Bob

       I'm not sure what you are trying to say with this. Please explain.

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2003\11\26@192007 by Mike Hord

picon face
I think it's more of a comment on our surprise that anyone would
be offended by this.

For example, I myself am very proud of the Germanic heritage of
my mother's family and associate myself strongly with those roots,
but I'm not offended by people outright badmouthing Germany
for its actions, past or present.  Nor do I get upset about people
making sterotypes about young white males.

I (and I think many engineers) tend to view language as a simple
tool for communicating abstract ideas, and the usage of it to
convey a concept can be no more offensive to me than, say, the
sight of someone opening a beer bottle with pliers or prying open
a plastic electronics case with a screwdriver.  With that viewpoint,
it's difficult to understand someone objecting to the use of the
terms "master" and "slave", since they are just words which, in
many cases, succinctly and correctly explain the concept at hand.

My problem with it is that it seems to be a symptom that people
in the US these days *look* for things to be offended by, and
the legal community seems altogether too happy to profit by
attacking hapless souls who didn't consider every possible impact
of every word they use on every person who could possibly see
it.  It seems to me that people look for excuses to cause problems,
and this reduces the seriousness with which actual and legitimate
cases of offensive behavior are viewed.

Mike H.

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2003\11\26@192628 by Jinx

face picon face
> One point that's frequently glossed over, is the buyers in
> africa were primarily white, but the sellers were frequently black..

That issue as a specific one, some folk just don't like the facts
getting in the way of a b* good and seemingly pointless bleat

> Anyway, I think we're nearing the moderation limit in this direction. :)

A pity "moderation" isn't more generally observed "out there" eh ?

Being a squeaky wheel can pay off, but it's a risky tactic

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2003\11\26@204733 by Vern Jones

flavicon
face
No more FM Radios, cell phones or other communications receivers, the FM
receivers have "Discriminators" and "Ratio Detectors" ratio may be
mispronounced to infer some other meaning.

No more Masters Degrees from UCLA.

What else can we outlaw here in California, maybe good sense.

How many other industrial terms might be considered "off key" or
whatever else someone tries to infer from some term.

Vern

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2003\11\26@205147 by Robert Rolf

picon face
Tony Nixon wrote:
>
> Maybe I can sue and counter sue myself adfinitum. I'd make millions...
>

No the LAWYERS would make the millions. You'd get squat, as in most
lawsuits.

R

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2003\11\26@210637 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face
On Wednesday, Nov 26, 2003, at 15:56 US/Pacific, Bob Blick wrote:
>
> Yes, have a "normal" one that has drives labeled master/slave and a
> "queer" one with dominant/submissive drives :-)
>

Are EIDE drives ACTUALLY master/slave anymore?  I've noticed that
things work just fine if I plug only a drive configured as "slave" in
my secondary IDE controller, for instance...  Perhaps the functionality
changed long before
the request for terminology changes.

BillW

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2003\11\26@211225 by Roy Ward

flavicon
face
On Thursday 27 November 2003 13:07, you wrote:
> You know... I'm really offended that the air I'm breathing is "Used air".
> Isn't there someone I can sue for forcing me to breathe this second rate,
> virus riddled junk?
>
> :)

I don't think so ... after all you can stop breathing it any time you like ;-)

Roy Ward

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2003\11\26@211433 by James Nick Sears

picon face
>  I'm surprised by the piclist's response (Lawrence Lile's
>     excepted) to this.

Surprised by the fact that perople are confused/in disbelief/outraged that
an entire industry is being accused of discrimination for its proper use of
the english language?  From Webster's:

Main Entry: 1mas7ter
Pronunciation: 'mas-t&r
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English magister & Old French maistre,
both from Latin magister; akin to Latin magnus large -- more at MUCH
Date: before 12th century
1 a (1) : a male teacher (2) : a person holding an academic degree higher
than a bachelor's but lower than a doctor's b often capitalized : a revered
religious leader c : a worker or artisan qualified to teach apprentices d
(1) : an artist, performer, or player of consummate skill (2) : a great
figure of the past (as in science or art) whose work serves as a model or
ideal
2 a : one having authority over another : RULER, GOVERNOR b : one that
conquers or masters : VICTOR, SUPERIOR <in this young, obscure challenger
the champion found his master> c : a person licensed to command a merchant
ship d (1) : one having control (2) : an owner especially of a slave or
animal e : the employer especially of a servant f (1) dialect : HUSBAND (2)
: the male head of a household
3 a (1) archaic : MR. (2) : a youth or boy too young to be called mister --
used as a title b : the eldest son of a Scottish viscount or baron
4 a : a presiding officer in an institution or society (as a college) b :
any of several officers of court appointed to assist (as by hearing and
reporting) a judge
5 a : a master mechanism or device b : an original from which copies can be
made; especially : a master phonograph record or magnetic tape
- mas7ter7ship  /-"ship/ noun


Main Entry: 1slave
Pronunciation: 'slAv
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English sclave, from Old French or Medieval Latin; Old
French esclave, from Medieval Latin sclavus, from Sclavus Slavic; from the
frequent enslavement of Slavs in central Europe
Date: 14th century
1 : a person held in servitude as the chattel of another
2 : one that is completely subservient to a dominating influence
3 : a device (as the printer of a computer) that is directly responsive to
another
4 : DRUDGE, TOILER
- slave adjective


Call it what you will, but the fact of the matter is that one device finds
itself "directly responsive" to the orders of another.  Note that while
electronic devices are mentioned, the only group of people mentioned is the
one associated with the origin of the word, the Slavs.  This isn't just a
trade name like SMBus or DirectX - this has become part of the
widely-accepted definition of the word.  Any word or words that truly
describe this relationship will be but synonyms for master and slave.  In my
eyes a word can only be discriminatory or offensive for the idea it
represents, so do we have to reengineer all systems such that every device
has an equal right to life, liberty, and pursuit of bus ownership?  I don't
see another way to find a way to accurately relabel things in such a way
that is completely unoffensive.

>
>     If your spouse told you, "There's this thing you do that bothers
>     me; I'd be happier if you stopped," I don't think many of you
>     would respond with, "Your feelings are stupid; I'm going to keep
>     doing it because you really shouldn't be bothered by it."
>

If it was something as inane as this then you'd better believe I would.  I
would put it more sensitively than that of course, but it is important to
call bs when you smell poo.  People don't love doormats.  They use them.

>     Or, hmm... Engineers ARE stereotypically unskilled at social
>     interaction; maybe the stereotype is accurate and most of you
>     WOULD say that to your husband or wife.

Engineers are also stereotypically spineless weenies.  Anyone who jumps
simply because someone else says "jump" is preciselly that.

>
>     In any case, telling your CUSTOMERS that you're going to ignore
>     their feelings because they're illogical/stupid/liberal/PC/etc is
>     just bad business.  If you can make a customer happier by doing
>     something as simple as changing two words, why wouldn't you?  It
>     doesn't matter AT ALL whether you think the request is logical
>     or necessary.

True, but we aren't responding to our customers.  We are responding to our
colleagues.  Besides, there is a point where beyond which, if a customer is
consistently irrational in such a way that causes needless cost and
confusion, it may be more profitable to find other, more rational customers.
I'm not really specifically talking about changing a few letters on
silkscreen here but instead, the general jump when you hear jump attitude.
Maybe you do change the words, especially for a large account, but I'd be
surprised and frightened if people DIDN'T respond this way.  I have never
owned and will never own a slave.  I am not a discriminatory person,
racially or otherwise.  As such I do not like the idea of being accused of
being one for something as innocuous as this.  I also do not like taxpayers'
money and peoples' time and efforts being misdirected toward righting (and
thereby acknowledging and justifying) nonexistent wrongs.  I also believe
that there is a large core of intelligent people with money to spend that
feel the same way.  To these people, caving to a faddish request such as
this is a sign of incompetence, lack of confidence, and ultimately weakness,
none of which are attractive qualities when considering placing one's trust
in another.  What if interest in this issue passes quickly (as I presume it
will) and your company is one of only a few in the industry that have
disowned the standard (as I presume it would be).  Won't this create
unnecessary confusion and make your product less attractive to potential
customers?

>     Besides, Master/Slave can usually be replaced without loss of
>     meaning, and in fact, the replacement can often be MORE
>     meaningful.  PC hard disk drives, for instance, are more
>     accurately described as Primary/Secondary than Master/Slave,
>     right?

Then we have Primary Primary, Primary Secondary, Secondary Primary, and
Secondary Secondary.  Rather confusing and might cause a few problems when
people connect HDs, no?

I think that today in America, just like in the rest of the world, there are
much more important issues that deserve governments' and employees' time.
Let us not forget on this eve, the eve of the day of thanks giving, Michael,
Kobe, and Paris.

Nick

{Quote hidden}

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2003\11\26@212302 by Herbert Graf

flavicon
face
> Are EIDE drives ACTUALLY master/slave anymore?  I've noticed that
> things work just fine if I plug only a drive configured as "slave" in
> my secondary IDE controller, for instance...  Perhaps the functionality
> changed long before
> the request for terminology changes.

       The functionality is still there, however most controllers these days will
enumerate any device on the bus, therefore having a slave but no master is
an excepted situation. TTYL

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2003\11\26@213546 by Tony Nixon

flavicon
picon face
Robert Rolf wrote:
>
> Tony Nixon wrote:
> >
> > Maybe I can sue and counter sue myself adfinitum. I'd make millions...
> >
>
> No the LAWYERS would make the millions. You'd get squat, as in most
> lawsuits.
>

What if one lawyer sues another who then counter sues and then spreads
to others. Maybe this would be an infinite loop and they would all
disappear into a black hole :-)

I must be bored...

Tony

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2003\11\26@215723 by Mike Hord

picon face
Whoops!  Careful with that "Q" word, Bob...

Mike H.

(PS- If you don't detect the tongue-in-cheek nature of this e-mail,
let me make it plain:  I'm kidding!)

{Quote hidden}

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2003\11\26@215930 by Mike Hord

picon face
>What else can we outlaw here in California, maybe good sense.

No smoking in bars, and soon, no talking and no drinking!

Mike H.

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2003\11\26@215935 by Jim Korman

flavicon
face
James Nick Sears wrote:

{Quote hidden}

Nice work, but it won't do any good. Remember the Washington D.C. staffer
who got canned for using "niggardly "; In a proper context too, as I recall.

Jim


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2003\11\26@220550 by Robert Ussery

flavicon
face
>-----Original Message-----
>From: pic microcontroller discussion list [TakeThisOuTPICLISTRemoveMEspam@spam@mitvma.mit.edu]
>On Behalf Of Mike Hord
>Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2003 7:57 PM
>To: EraseMEPICLISTRemoveMEspammitvma.mit.edu
>Subject: Re: [PICLIST] [OT]: Un-frigging-believable
>
>>What else can we outlaw here in California, maybe good sense.
>
>No smoking in bars, and soon, no talking and no drinking!
>
>Mike H.
[Robert Ussery]

I agree totally. Anything said in a bar clearly isn't worth hearing, and
drinking can only lead to irresponsible behavior. I think it's up to the
right-thinking citizens of California to lead the nation in cleansing our
society from this potentially dangerous and unhealthy behavior.

(Sounds almost rational after the tobacco lawsuits... Yipes!)

- Robert

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2003\11\26@225610 by Tom

flavicon
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You laugh now, Tony, but the scenario you described actually happened once
- there's even a video of it. It's called "Road Lawyers" and has been
cleverly disguised as taking place in the not-to-distant future wherein
there's no one else to sue so the lawyers have to sue each other.  Total
breakdown of society!

Look for it at a lesser-quality video rental store near you soon.

At 01:33 PM 11/27/2003 +1100, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2003\11\26@231931 by David W.S. King

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> >>What else can we outlaw here in California, maybe good sense.
> >
> >No smoking in bars, and soon, no talking and no drinking!
> >
> >Mike H.
> [Robert Ussery]

You do realize oxygen is corrosive and can cause problems
in high enough concentrations such as fire....

So if Kaleefornea outlawed o2 thn they would prevent all
sorts of disaters such as forest fires and laywers....

Dave

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2003\11\26@233007 by Jinx

face picon face
> How many other industrial terms might be considered "off key" or
> whatever else someone tries to infer from some term.

Hmm, seeing as I'm fed up with this LCD for the moment.......

Spade connectors - don't even go there girlfriend
White noise
Pink noise
Jacks (where's the Jills ?)
"dummy" values (very insensitive)
Chokes (too aggressive)
Suppressors (smacks of censorship)
super, hyper, ultra (not fair on underachievers)
Nothing shall ever be "mounted"

And let's get those "hoes" out of the garden

No more "rim shots" for drummers, just plain offensive
No more "wide receiver"
No more........

Oh god, that LCD's suddenly got interesting again

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2003\11\27@004000 by Johnathan Corgan

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Jinx wrote:

>>How many other industrial terms might be considered "off key" or
>>whatever else someone tries to infer from some term.
>>
>>
>
>Hmm, seeing as I'm fed up with this LCD for the moment.......
>
>
>
You forgot standard plumber's nipples:

http://www.plumbingsupply.com/nipplebox.html

-Johnathan

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2003\11\27@032914 by Luis Moreira

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Hi Andrew
I completely disagree with You. this is the problem with this PC stupidity,
When I use this term is not in any way related to any discriminating action
from my part and as such people should not take it that way !!!
I am Portuguese and I live in the UK for almost 7 years and My experience
is: if you stop people from using certain words and expressions it will not
make the people that actually believe in that stop doing so, and it will
make life harder for you and in a way make your relationship with the rest
of the people around you very difficult. I meet a few people that are
racist, but I meet many more people that are just brilliant and when we are
talking and joking around they call me a Portuguese bastard, bloody
foreigner and such, and yes if I wanted I could probably go around suing
everyone in the company but what kind of stupid life that would be ?
the problem with this PC stupidity is the fact that they are stopping people
from saying it but not making an effort to educate people not to think it,
and with that it's just making people resent it even more.
As an example, in the town I live a lady as some pet pigs, and she loves
them, so much so that she had some porcelain little pigs on her windows. it
was funny to just pass by her house, because she had so many of all colours
and sizes in the window, it was kind of a landmark. a year ago a Muslim
family moved to the house in front had problems with pigs and the council
took the lady to court to force her to remove the pigs of the window ( PC
police strikes again).
What this episode achieved was, as the lady never meant any offence, as she
always had the little pigs in the window was to make her and her friends and
everybody that knows about this resentful, including me. In life I found
that you can not be this cut and dry or the world will go nowhere, we will
all get bog down in this mindless stupidity.
best regards
               Luis


{Original Message removed}

2003\11\27@040723 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>>  Besides, Master/Slave can usually be replaced without loss of
>>  meaning, and in fact, the replacement can often be MORE
>>  meaningful.  PC hard disk drives, for instance, are more
>>  accurately described as Primary/Secondary than Master/Slave,
>>  right?
>
>Unfortunately, no.  The implication you are making here is that my
secondary
>drive, which contains my hard earned data, is somehow less important than
my

No there is a definite master/slave relationship between ATA drives. You
cannot run a secondary drive without a primary drive.

There are other situations where the terms master and slave are probably
misnomers, but for so much stuff this is exactly the relationship that
exists between two pieces of equipment, and for that reason the terms would
have to be "politically correct" The video equipment described in the
original news item sounds like this would be the correct use of the term, as
it sounds like duplicating equipment, or multimaster recording equipment,
such as used in police interviews. In these cases there is a definite M-S
relationship because one piece of equipment commands the other piece.

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2003\11\27@043044 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
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> Maybe I can sue and counter sue myself adfinitum. I'd make millions...

Only if you are also a lawyer.

       RM

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2003\11\27@043045 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
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> If we're going to get rid of Master and Slave because of the APPARENT
> connotation, then shall we also get rid of MasterCard?  Is it not
asserting
> itself over others by use of the term Master?

Toyota (I think it is) make a van named a "Masterace"*. I would have though
they would have learnt by now :-)


       RM


* Maybe there's a space in there somewhere :-).

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2003\11\27@043045 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
> You know... I'm really offended that the air I'm breathing is "Used air".
> Isn't there someone I can sue for forcing me to breathe this second rate,
virus riddled junk?

Think yourself lucky, honoured  or blessed (or some mix) depending on your
perspective.
EVERY breath you take you breathe in molecules once exhaled by Jesus
Christ*. Also Julius Caesar, Plato and some tens of millions of other
people. I'm not sure how far back you have to go before you can assert this
with certainty but after 2000 years you're easily there.

Now, about the water you drink ... :-)



       RM


* If anyone wants the calculations on this ask offlist and I'll send you a
copy of a sci-fact piece I wrote some years ago.

________________________

"............ If our assumptions are valid, in every breath we take we
breath in billions of molecules which have already been breathed by each of
Jesus Christ, Julius Caesar, Plato, ..... you name it. Some of these
molecules will become part of us for life, others will be breathed out,
never to return, on the next breath. Simply by breathing I share a part of
every historic character who ever breathed before me.

Such a stunning result suggests a recheck of both the calculations and the
assumptions. I have checked the calculations several times - I largely leave
it to you to satisfy yourself that the assumptions are valid - many
mechanisms for reduction of the results suggest themselves but none seem
likely to reverse the conclusion. I have outlined a few below and would
welcome any suggestions which promise to effect the result significantly.
......................
"

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2003\11\27@050444 by Jinx

face picon face
> Maybe I can sue and counter sue myself adfinitum. I'd
> make millions...

Don't forget to appeal

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2003\11\27@064144 by Jonathan Johnson

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AMEN!

-----Original Message-----
From: pic microcontroller discussion list
[spamPICLISTspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU]On Behalf Of Jinx
Sent: Thursday, 27 November 2003 8:45 AM
To: PICLISTSTOPspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [OT]: Un-frigging-believable


>  In any case, telling your CUSTOMERS that you're going to ignore
>  their feelings because they're illogical/stupid/liberal/PC/etc is
>  just bad business.

Of course, I'd change whatever they wanted. They're paying the bills,
they can have whatever labels they want, whatever colour, whatever
shape. Even little smiley faces dotting the I's too, and I'll curtsey, bow
and doff my cap on delivery no matter how nuts I think they are. And I've
had the occassional customer who's a sandwich short of a picnic, like
we all have

But on on the personal side, I think people get upset because it's often
a small vocal pissy minority with ill-founded "issues". For example
feminists who objected to "manual", even though the "man" content
has nothing to do with "male". Paging Dr Phil, paging Dr Phil

Slavery wasn't and isn't exclusively white-on-black. Does that person
have an active role in trying to stamp out current African / Middle
Eastern black-on-black, European white-on-white, or Asian slavery ?
Do they campaign against oppressive regimes ? If they can get such
a bug up their *ss about a label maybe they should. And maybe look
into their own roots. How much public atonement could we expect
from this person if they found out that their ancestors practised slavery ?
Probably not much at all. I think some people just enjoy wallowing in
poor-me-poor-me-look-what-they-did self-pity

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2003\11\27@073832 by Mike

picon face
On 27 Nov 2003 at 21:47, Russell McMahon wrote:


> > You know... I'm really offended that the air I'm breathing is "Used air".
> > Isn't there someone I can sue for forcing me to breathe this second rate,
> virus riddled junk?
>
> Think yourself lucky, honoured  or blessed (or some mix) depending on your
> perspective.
> EVERY breath you take you breathe in molecules once exhaled by Jesus
> Christ*. Also Julius Caesar, Plato and some tens of millions of other
> people. I'm not sure how far back you have to go before you can assert this
> with certainty but after 2000 years you're easily there.
>
> Now, about the water you drink ... :-)
>
IIRC, the PICList FAQ states that they don't want to see religious messages, so if
you want to mention Jesus, Ceasar,  and Plato, I think you have to include Aristotle
to kinda balance it all out :-)

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2003\11\27@074416 by Mike

picon face
On 27 Nov 2003 at 21:30, Russell McMahon wrote:

> > If we're going to get rid of Master and Slave because of the APPARENT
> > connotation, then shall we also get rid of MasterCard?  Is it not
> asserting
> > itself over others by use of the term Master?
>
> Toyota (I think it is) make a van named a "Masterace"*. I would have though
> they would have learnt by now :-)

Their English is vely poor. They meant MasterAce, maybe.

I can't friggin' believe some wanker on Fox news just reported on this crap without
opining. He just mentioned that a complaint was filed at that affirmative anal action
office and that it was suggested that we call them primary and secondary, which as
you all've heard by now, is the nomenclature for the controllers, not the drives.

phooey and plbht.

BRs,
Mike
{Quote hidden}

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2003\11\27@085639 by Herbert Graf

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face
> >Unfortunately, no.  The implication you are making here is that my
> secondary
> >drive, which contains my hard earned data, is somehow less important than
> my
>
> No there is a definite master/slave relationship between ATA drives. You
> cannot run a secondary drive without a primary drive.

       Actually you can. I often run devices set to slave on my secondary channel
without any master device, and it works fine. There is nothing in the spec
to prevent this, selection of the slave device is just a single bit in one
of the registers you write to. TTYL

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2003\11\27@085849 by Herbert Graf

flavicon
face
> Jinx wrote:
>
> >>How many other industrial terms might be considered "off key" or
> >>whatever else someone tries to infer from some term.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >Hmm, seeing as I'm fed up with this LCD for the moment.......
> >
> >
> >
> You forgot standard plumber's nipples:
>
> http://www.plumbingsupply.com/nipplebox.html

       What about caulking? Sounds like another "offensive" word... TTYL



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2003\11\27@162757 by Jonathan Johnson

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And there goes flashing......lotta roof linings going to leak.

and what about carpentry.....butt joins certainly have some....implications?

{Original Message removed}

2003\11\27@164913 by David VanHorn

flavicon
face
At 08:31 AM 11/28/2003 +1100, Jonathan Johnson wrote:

>And there goes flashing......lotta roof linings going to leak.
>
>and what about carpentry.....butt joins certainly have some....implications?

Not to mention Tongue and Groove, and how am I going to get a Mill Bastard file?

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2003\11\27@181711 by Jonathan Johnson

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face
......I could get in a lot of trouble if I tell the missus I have to get in
some womans manhole to give proper service....:-^


My brother is a builder and he has on his business cards"....for the perfect
erection every time"
He gets some....interesting calls

{Original Message removed}

2003\11\27@182750 by David VanHorn

flavicon
face
At 10:20 AM 11/28/2003 +1100, Jonathan Johnson wrote:

>......I could get in a lot of trouble if I tell the missus I have to get in
>some womans manhole to give proper service....:-^
>
>
>My brother is a builder and he has on his business cards"....for the perfect
>erection every time"
>He gets some....interesting calls

If you were trying to build a Marx Generator, you'd be very concerned about getting fast, and long lasting erections.  :)  A stable erection process is also a good thing.
http://www.vk2zay.net/marx.html

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2003\11\27@183827 by Colin Constant

picon face
>From: Jonathan Johnson <RemoveMEouteredgespamBeGonespamspamSMARTCHAT.NET.AU>
>
>And there goes flashing......lotta roof linings going to leak.
>
>and what about carpentry.....butt joins certainly have
>some....implications?

You do know what that spiral crease between the strands of a rope is
properly called, don't you?

Colin

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2003\11\27@184829 by Jonathan Johnson

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face
Wouldnt be something along the lines of getting your hands around some
cleavage on the weekend would it? ......rock climbing and abseiling are
great sports :-)

or am I mistaken?

{Original Message removed}

2003\11\27@185659 by Liam O'Hagan

flavicon
face
unfortunately, most climbing ropes are of a kern-mantle construction, with
many inner cores covered by an outer sheath (!!) and hence no cleavage in
sight....


> {Original Message removed}

2003\11\27@190319 by Jinx

face picon face
> Wouldnt be something along the lines of getting your hands
> around some cleavage on the weekend would it? ......rock
> climbing and abseiling are great sports :-)


> > You do know what that spiral crease between the strands of a
> > rope is properly called, don't you?

OK, after 10 minutes with Google I think I'm done with knots and
nautical terms

What a pity I'm too busy to follow up on the +rope +cleavage
results  Maybe later eh ? ;-)

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2003\11\27@192224 by Jonathan Johnson

flavicon
face
speaking of such, I was actually after a website with instructions on how to
weave/plait/knot the 4,5,6+ strand/cord knots(?) I ended up getting lost in
the mass of non useful links, I used to have the website saved for offline
veiwing but after a crash I lost it and have had no luck digging it out of
the masses again. Does anyone onlist know of a method or site that describes
it?

they end up looking somewhat like a  dimensional celtic knot.

cheers,

Jonathan

{Original Message removed}

2003\11\27@192637 by Jonathan Johnson

flavicon
face
but what is the crease called? and that REALLY doesnt change what I
wrote...:-)

-----Original Message-----
From: pic microcontroller discussion list
[.....PICLISTRemoveMEspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU]On Behalf Of Liam O'Hagan
Sent: Friday, 28 November 2003 10:59 AM
To: KILLspamPICLISTspamTakeThisOuTMITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [OT]: Un-frigging-believable


unfortunately, most climbing ropes are of a kern-mantle construction, with
many inner cores covered by an outer sheath (!!) and hence no cleavage in
sight....


{Quote hidden}

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2003\11\28@004456 by Andrew Warren

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Luis Moreira <spamPICLIST@spam@spamSTOPspammitvma.mit.edu> wrote:

> I completely disagree with You.

   I doubt it, Luis.  I think you disagree with the City of Los
   Angeles's decision to send that email to its suppliers.

   Go back and read the message I posted.  I said nothing about whether
   the City's request was logical or reasonable; I only said that if
   you're in business, it's your job to satisfy your customers'
   desires. Do you disagree with that?

   Maybe you do, in which case I wish you the best of luck in whatever
   it is that you're planning to do instead of being successful.

> When I use this term is not in any way related to any discriminating
> action from my part and as such people should not take it that way !!!

   Yes, OF COURSE you don't mean anything offensive when you label
   devices "master" and "slave".  People shouldn't assume that you do,
   and in fact, I'm pretty sure people DON'T assume that you do.

   The feeling, I think -- and I really don't want to argue whether this
   is reasonable or not; I'm just explaining it, not defending it -- is
   that some words are offensive on their face; people can be made
   uncomfortable by them even if no offense was intended by the person
   speaking them.  A child shouting obscenities in public, for example,
   will make people uncomfortable even if that child is clearly too
   young to know what the words mean.

> the problem with this PC stupidity is the fact that they are stopping
> people from saying it but not making an effort to educate people not
> to think it

   Good point.  I agree with you that more needs to be done.

   -Andy

=== Andrew Warren
===
=== Opinions expressed above are not necessarily
=== those of Cypress Semiconductor Corporation

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2003\11\28@025427 by Luis Moreira

flavicon
face
Hi Andrew
I misunderstood your point, and I apologise. I though you were defending
this PC crap, but I agree with you that if the customer wants it and by
changing it you will keep the customer or even be able to charge extra for
it then give him what he wants.
Regards
               Luis

{Original Message removed}

2003\11\28@110951 by juan garofalo

flavicon
face
We've loaded him with a lot of taxes
And rules and codes but there's something funny;
In spite of the way his burden waxes
The son-of-a-gun is making money!


Whenever he's given a boost to trade
We've taken an extra tribute off it,
But still the villain is undismayed,
The son-of-a-gun has shown a Profit!


We grind out daily a brand new grist
Of regulations by Profs. And scholars,
But the Rugged Individualist
Is still producing some surplus dollars!


We've frowned on personal, private gains,
As most immoral, and due for censure,
But the son-of-a-gun with Business Brains
Continues risking some new adventure!


In spite of Planners and New Deal sages
With Communistical dreams and yearnings,
This Capitalistic guy pays wages,
And Some of his stocks and bonds show earnings!


We've moved the bases, and changed the lines,
And altered the rules for every inning,
With added penalties, doubled fines,
But the son-of-a-gun insists on winning!


It's anti-social to fail to fail,
It makes our wonderful schemes look funny;
Rush the Traitor at once to jail,
For the son-of-a-gun is making money!.


About the Author: Berton Braley (1882 -1966) was an America's poet who
expressed the benevolent American sense of life through rhyme and verse. His
poems romanticize the heroic, great, and industrious in man.

http://www.capmag.com

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