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'[OT]: Tragedy'
2001\09\12@203930 by Russell McMahon

picon face
>> Sam ... didn't we cheer and celebrate while watching CNN's live
>> coverage of our missiles falling on Baghdad a few short years
>> ago?  What's good for the goose is good for the gander, even
>> though at times we have to be the goose.


> Yeah, and for the most part they were military targets.  Last time I
> checked, the WTC wasn't a military installation.


If cruise missiles can now distinguish between civilian and military targets
and between "innocent: and "guilty" parties then they must have changed to
using PICs in the decision making circuits :-)

In Iraq the government purposefully builds military installations in close
contact with civilian housing etc in order to both discourage attack and to
ensure civilian losses when attacks occur. Civilians are offered "shelter"
in presidential palaces (of which there are many) when attacks are imminent.
You can be fairly certain that, with such policies, attacks on Baghdad would
have resulted in much higher civilian than military fatalities. How you
"reasonably" deal with such policies may be terminally challenging claiming
that civilian fatalities are not occurring or are minimal  is just lying to
ourselves. If we say that we don't care about civilian casualties in such
cases it would at least be more honest.

Many Iraqi citizens fear both the US for what it has done to them and their
leadership for what it continues to do to them. They are encouraged to hate
the US and have reason enough to do so. Even if you were justified in
attempting to kill their leaders and those who (to a variable extent)
willingly support them, the people's hatred for you alone is not, I think,
enough justification for killing them. If we kill people because they hate
us for killing them where will it end?

I condemn absolutely the cowardly actions of September 11th. By any
standards worthy of acknowledgment the attack on the WTC was untenable and
not something which should be countenanced under any circumstances. But to
not understand that to many the WTC, as both a symbol and  a means of
exploitation of the worlds resources by a disproportionate few,  is seen to
be as offensive as any military installation is to hide our heads in the
sand and invite history to repeat itself in due course.

Pretending that what we are doing internationally is invariably upright and
pure and just and that we are all good citizens of the world is a good way
of ensuring that the future will be a worse version of the past.



           Russell McMahon

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2001\09\12@210449 by Jim

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    "If cruise missiles can now distinguish between
     civilian and military targets and between
     "innocent: and "guilty" parties then they
     must have changed to using PICs in the
     decision making circuits :-)"

Military planners decide the targets - then coordinates
are entered into the cruise missile - which indeed *may*
use a PIC (I don't know) ... Cruise missiles are able
to quite literally 'fly' to a target - along a pre-planned
route involving waypoints for turns, different course
routes. Early cruise missiles used inertial nav, later
versions were equipped with GPS.

IIRC - targets such the comm centers (switching,
microwave relay sites) and power generating stations
were the targets in Baghdad ... NOT civilian-occupied
"Trade Centers".

Jim



{Original Message removed}

2001\09\13@015542 by Russell McMahon

picon face
Latest radio news here is that the 4th plane was intended to target Airforce
1.
Whether this is true or can ever be proved is another matter.



       Russell McMahon

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2001\09\13@022551 by Jim

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You didn't see the ABCnews graphic that showed
the plane that hit the Pentagon *actually*
looped around over the capitol and White
House area -

- before it assumed *final approach* in it's crash
into the Pentagon?

The pi-jacker (term just coined ) may have screwed up.

Or maybe he/they had trouble with his/their passengers too?

Jim


{Original Message removed}

2001\09\13@090508 by Bob Barr

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Russell McMahon wrote:
>
>Latest radio news here is that the 4th plane was intended to target
>Airforce
>1.
>Whether this is true or can ever be proved is another matter.
>

At a rough estimate, the time and distance to intercept AF-1 sounds about
right if GWB had returned directly from Florida to Andrews (as he was
probably expected to do).

By that time, however, I would hope that AF-1 would have had fighter escort.


Regards, Bob


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2001\09\13@092610 by Russell McMahon
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> >Latest radio news here is that the 4th plane was intended to target
> >Airforce 1.
> >Whether this is true or can ever be proved is another matter.

> At a rough estimate, the time and distance to intercept AF-1 sounds about
> right if GWB had returned directly from Florida to Andrews (as he was
> probably expected to do).
>
> By that time, however, I would hope that AF-1 would have had fighter
escort.


I'm told, but don't know if true, that AF1 always has a fighter escort when
in "serious mode" and that it is equipped with chaff and flares and also its
own missiles. (The latter, if present,  are certainly not visible but it
would not be hard to do this if desired).  Given that it has just on
supersonic capability it would be a hard target to catch with any other
airliner - even before you got to its friends and its teeth. It didn't SEEM
to have fighters when it turned up here but our boys could have been lurking
nearby and the threat here would be extremely minimal.

I'm glad that we never found out the true target of the 4th plane but sad
for the folks who died making it so. I hope you will all give them some
special form of recognition in due course. Won't help them of course but
will make their families and their countrymen stand a little taller.



               Russell McMahon

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2001\09\13@101629 by Thomas McGahee

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My thanks to those PIC List members that sent condolences
to me on the occassion of the deaths of several of my
friends in the collapse of the World Trade Center towers.

This morning instead of having our usual homeroom period,
we assembled all of the students here at Don Bosco Technical
High School (where I teach) in the gymnasium. We began
with a reading from the Gospel of Matthew 5:38 where Jesus
exhorts His followers:

"You have learnt how it was said: 'An eye for an eye and a
tooth for a tooth.' But I say to you: offer the wicked man no
resistance. On the contrary, if anyone hits you on the right
cheek, offer him the other as well. If a man takes you to
law and would have your tunic, let him have your cloak as well.
And if anyone orders you to go one mile, go with him two miles.
Give to anyone who asks, and if anyone wants to borrow, do not
turn away.

"You have learnt how it was said: 'you must love your neighbor
and hate your enemy.' But I say this to you: love your
enemies, and pray for those who persecute you. In this way
you will be sons of your Father in heaven, for He causes His
sun to rise on bad men as well as good, and His rain to fall
on honest and dishonest men alike. For if you love those who
love you, what right have you to claim any credit? Even the
tax collectors do as much, do they not? And if you save your
greetings for your brothers, are you doing anything exceptional?
Even the pagans do as much, do they not? You must therefore
be perfect, just as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Tough words, and ones that I am sure many will choose to ignore,
but the only kind of words that can ever truly bring an end
to the cycle of violence.

Fr. Thomas McGahee

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2001\09\13@102143 by Stephen Webb

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> I'm told, but don't know if true, that AF1 always has a fighter escort when
> in "serious mode" and that it is equipped with chaff and flares and also its

Don't know if this is true,  but a friend said he thought this was the
first time AF1 had escorts while in US airspace.

Also, the news reported that AF1 was a target, and indicated that it would
have been hit on the runway after/during landing, not while in flight.

-Steve

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2001\09\13@125307 by Ron Anthony

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Thomas, your are a fool.  Your philosophy is lost on people who commit acts
such as we've witnessed.  You'll never run out of cheecks to turn, always
hoping the enemy will see promise in your infinite will to suffer, and have
a change of heart.  Unfortunately, you and all those who aspouse your drivel
will be physically dead before then.  Right now it is YOU who are part of
the problem.  All your good intentions are corrupted by your failure to
realize reality for what it is.  THANKS FOR NOTHING SIR.  You contribute
NOTHING.

{Original Message removed}

2001\09\13@125809 by Dan Michaels

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At 08:04 PM 9/12/01 -0500, you wrote:
.......
>
>IIRC - targets such the comm centers (switching,
>microwave relay sites) and power generating stations
>were the targets in Baghdad ... NOT civilian-occupied
>"Trade Centers".
.......


Try this scenario - a small band of 100 terrorists from
a dozen different countries get together and plan the attack.
Afterwards, they disband [into groups of 8-10] and go back to
their homes for 6 months. Question is, where you gonna send
the cruise missiles?

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2001\09\13@130906 by Jim

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  "Try this scenario - a small band of ..."

Where did this come from? WE, or at least I
was discussing what we initially took out in
Baghdad - when the implication -I think- was that
we had targetted civilian targets, which was
not the case.


Jim

{Original Message removed}

2001\09\13@134013 by Lawrence Lile

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A mosque was firebombed in Texas, and yesterday another mosque in Dallas had
the windows shot out.  This was just a side note buried deep into an
article, hardly mentioned.  Apparently somebody is taking an eye for an eye
seriously, since they are too blind to see how damaging such actions are.
Arab-Americans are all living in fear, first the tragedy and then bigotted
retributions from racists.

--Lawrence



{Original Message removed}

2001\09\13@143117 by John Ferrell

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This is an example of what we must carefully avoid. This is the intended
result of the attack to lead us to fall into infighting.

Consider my niece. She married a Pakistani. Their son Shaw was born in
America, went to school in America, works (and pays taxes ) in America. And
he wears a US Marine uniform. Be careful of who you condemn! There is no
such thing as a typical "American"!

John Ferrell
6241 Phillippi Rd
Julian NC 27283
Phone: (336)685-9606
Dixie Competition Products
NSRCA 479 AMA 4190  W8CCW
"My Competition is Not My Enemy"



{Original Message removed}

2001\09\13@143133 by jamesnewton

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Mr. Anthony has been removed from the PICList.

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{Original Message removed}

2001\09\13@144657 by John Ferrell

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face
You asked:
Question is, where you gonna send
the cruise missiles?

The answer:
The missiles will follow them home. Those who harbor & comfort them will
become targets as well. There is no time limit. We are still punishing
Nazi's for war crimes and there is no safe haven and there is no statute of
limitations. The acts of terrorism have been defined as attacks against the
civilized world and will be dealt with war crimes. As war crimes, due
process is a whole lot faster.

Our infrastructure must not be hurt too bad. My dog just informed me that
the order I placed with DigiKey on Monday is on the back porch.




John Ferrell
6241 Phillippi Rd
Julian NC 27283
Phone: (336)685-9606
Dixie Competition Products
NSRCA 479 AMA 4190  W8CCW
"My Competition is Not My Enemy"



{Original Message removed}

2001\09\13@145059 by Byron A Jeff

face picon face
On Thu, Sep 13, 2001 at 11:27:21AM -0700, James Newton. Admin 3 wrote:
> Mr. Anthony has been removed from the PICList.

James,

This may be a hasty decision. While I abhor and condemn Mr. Anthony's words
I think that he should be allowed to vent here as others have in the last few
days.

If you meditate on Fr. Thomas' words for a minute, you may realize that
in order to turn the other cheek, that you have to allow dialog with those
that you do not agree with.

I cannot speak for Ron, but I feel real anger and real pain in his words.
It seems that he's trying to vent that anger. Maybe we should be open enough
to allow him to do that.

Think and bit and maybe you'll rethink your decision.

And Fr. Thomas, I am deeply sorry and saddened by your, and indirectly all of
our, loss.

BAJ
>
> ---
> James Newton, Admin #3 RemoveMEjamesnewtonTakeThisOuTspampiclist.com
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> {Original Message removed}

2001\09\13@153109 by jamesnewton

face picon face
No, I appreciate your being willing to follow Fr. McGahee's advice (on his
behalf <GRIN>) and turn HIS other cheek, but...

John Stuart Mill, _On Liberty_
"The liberty of the individual must be thus far limited; he must not make a
nuisance of himself to other people." -

???
"Your right to swing your arm stops where my nose begins"

Eleanor Roosevelt
"Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds
discuss people."

Lazarus Long (Robert A. Heinlein)
"Never appeal to a man's better nature. He may not have one. Invoking his
self-interest gives you more leverage."

and others from
http://www.piclist.com/quotes

My personal favorite from that page... although I'm not sure it applies
here... is
Doctor Who, Face of Evil
"The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of
altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their
views... which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the
facts that needs altering."

I think I differ from the good father as well as Mr Anthony, but my
difference has a reason that I can express....

...I'm not a nice enough person to care whether or not "turning the other
cheek" is the "right" thing to do or not and I for DAMN sure don't like
being slapped. On the other hand, I like results and I REALLY DON'T LIKE
WAR. Wasting brains is bad. And history shows that just turning the other
cheek (or ignoring the turning of your neighbors cheek) teaches the bully to
get a set of brass knuckles so he can keep hitting without bruising his
hand, but blowing up the mad "president-for-life's" family while not hurting
(in fact aiding) the rest of the populace results in peace.


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{Original Message removed}

2001\09\13@154357 by Dan Michaels

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I hope you're getting your steam off, because you are definitely
over the top here, young man.

Normally this type of comment is not considered acceptable on
piclist -------> [James?]


Ron Anthony wrote:
>Thomas, your are a fool.  Your philosophy is lost on people who commit acts
>such as we've witnessed.  You'll never run out of cheecks to turn, always
>hoping the enemy will see promise in your infinite will to suffer, and have
>a change of heart.  Unfortunately, you and all those who aspouse your drivel
>will be physically dead before then.  Right now it is YOU who are part of
>the problem.  All your good intentions are corrupted by your failure to
>realize reality for what it is.  THANKS FOR NOTHING SIR.  You contribute
>NOTHING.
>
>{Original Message removed}

2001\09\13@155842 by Dan Michaels

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Oops - I must have blanked out the more appropriate stuff.

Whatever, point was, the guerillas disappear into the bushes,
leave the country, go home, lie low for 6 months or 3 years.
They have probably already done so. There is no standing army,
no front lines, etc, etc. They wait years to do things. 1993
the truck bomb, 2001 the airplanes. Do you think they are gonna
sit there while the marines come in after the bombers hit after
the cruise missiles strike? Right.



At 12:07 PM 9/13/01 -0500, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>{Original Message removed}

2001\09\13@163240 by John Ferrell

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A sobering thought.
I will voluntarily take my emotions off list at this time. If anyone wishes
to air their feelings with direct e-mail I will attempt to respond.
Disruption of normal business is part of the attack's objectives and I
intend to do my part to deny that objective.


John Ferrell
6241 Phillippi Rd
Julian NC 27283
Phone: (336)685-9606
Dixie Competition Products
NSRCA 479 AMA 4190  W8CCW
"My Competition is Not My Enemy"



----- Original Message -----
From: "James Newton. Admin 3" <TakeThisOuTjamesnewtonEraseMEspamspam_OUTPICLIST.COM>
To: <RemoveMEPICLISTspamTakeThisOuTMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2001 2:27 PM
Subject: Re: [OT]: Tragedy


> Mr. Anthony has been removed from the PICList.
>
> ---
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> {Original Message removed}

2001\09\14@012216 by Jinx

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> Stay tuned - this thing isn't over yet. They "apparently"
> arrested 2 more crews of terrorists trying to get onto
> planes to going out tonight. Apparently, their flights
> were cancelled 2 days ago before leaving the ground.

On a minor note, some 55yo knob-end from Papatoetoe
in Auckland was arrested and charged with communicating
false information, breach of the peace and actions likely
to endanger safety after he loudly exclaimed "don't touch
the bomb in my bag" as he boarded a plane in Auckland
this morning

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2001\09\14@013443 by Paul Hutchinson

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> Tough words, and ones that I am sure many will choose to ignore,
> but the only kind of words that can ever truly bring an end
> to the cycle of violence.

I couldn't agree more!

Fr. Thomas, thank you very much for the post.

And James, thank you for removing Ron.
I have no objection to his expressing an opinion but, his rudeness in
expressing it as a personal attack on Fr. Thomas, was inexcusable.

Paul Hutchinson

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2001\09\14@035331 by Roman Black

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Phil wrote:
>
> What a ignorant moron this idoit must be!!!
> Phil
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Justin Fielding" <EraseMEJFieldingspamTVTRAVELSHOP.LTD.UK>
> To: <RemoveMEPICLISTEraseMEspamEraseMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 2:24 AM
> Subject: Re: Tragedy
>
> > BTW my posts are not saying that the civilian loss in New York is
> > acceptable, it's not, but I can see why it has happened in the way that
> > America acts in International affairs.  The pentagon was however a valid
> > target.
> >
> > Justin Fielding


Phil, are you referring to Justin's paragraph
here, that you included with your post?
Why do you think he is a moron? I am certainly not
a moron and everything in his statement seems
valid and sensible.

America HAS often acted in international affairs in
a way that would cause some sectors of the world to
hate the US. Fact.

The Pentagon was a valid target. Fact. If any group
believes it's at war with the US then the Pentagon
is a very valid target.

I am curious why Justin's post has caused such
anger??
-Roman

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2001\09\14@065640 by Peter L. Peres

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> Whatever, point was, the guerillas disappear into the bushes,
> leave the country, go home, lie low for 6 months or 3 years.
> They have probably already done so. There is no standing army,
> no front lines, etc, etc. They wait years to do things.

However they have names and faces, they teach others, and they learn from
others who also have names and faces. The technology is sufficiently
developed to go after them *forever*. Nowadays even a cave dwelling animal
can be routed and trapped at will assuming that the hunters want that.
They can take him or her alive or not, as required.

I do not believe that a/c carriers and jet fighters are required for this.
Afaik so far, all occupying armies known in history eventually lost face
and lost the land they held. Armies are made for fighting other armies,
not ruling and policing. There remains the problem of making the leaders
see the point. Look at Iraq. Tons of bombs, general condamnation, and
nothing changes. It takes something else than war to change and rule a
country.

I also do not believe that bringing terrorists to court is a solution.
They do not speak that language and cases were recorded (and still are)
where they simply hold the court in disdain and make fun of it. Maybe a
review of those medieval methods that did work is in order. I do not like
this but I want to travel safely. And you.

With regard to flight safety, maybe a good move would be to *permit* all
persons with suitable training (which could be all sane males above a
certain age) to carry properly secured but not disabled guns and weapons
on airplanes and all public transportation. Assuming that any terrorists
would be a minority (otherwise they would simply commandeer or steal or
just charter an a/c on the ground), this would give others a very good
chance to fight back. This and a completely separate flight deck (with a
doorless pressurized wall and their own exit door) might change the
picture wrt. safe flight imho. There is no real reason for a door to be
there in the first place imho.

Do you realize that the WTC events could be repeated by a chartered
Learjet or even a venerable DC3 anywhere in the world anytime on a smaller
scale ? And that the passengers could load any amount of crates marked
'geological survey equipment - handle with care' beforehead ? And fly over
the city or reservoir dam or whatever of their choice ? It's anyone's
guess what would be in the crates.

I think that the record of firearms-related violence recorded in countries
that have their citizens carry arms all the time (like Switzerland and
maybe also Israel) is particularly low. Tens of thousands carry loaded,
secured, weapons daily on buses and trains and nothing ever happens. They
keep them under their bed at home or in a cupboard (in Switzerland) and
accidents commited by children etc. only happen once in ten years or so -
with thousands of the guns around. Think about this. I am not a gun nut
and I do not own a gun but I think that it is good as it is. I had a
problem getting used to the idea of 17 year olds carrying M16's with two
full magazines while walking with their girl/boyfriends on the seafront
among 100's of other people but I quickly got used to it.

I think that this issue is controversial but prohibiting knifes on
planes is about as good as prohibition was imho, in that no-one will have
a knife, excepting those who do want to have a knife, and guess who that
might be.

I believe that if even one of the courageous people who attacked the
hijackers on that plane would have had a handgun the outcome could have
been different. After the WTC and Pentagon events I believe that every
male at least who is boarding an a/c would seriously consider training on
the gun and buying and keeping one for that purpose alone. Read some on
militias and how they came to be and you will see what I mean.

One must also consider air patrols. Afaik intercepting a plane on final
ballistic trajectory is extremely hard. Since the attacking plane is in a
dive and has no need to recover it can come at an angle and a speed that
cannot be matched by almost anything, certainly not by a following plane.
Even if hit it may stay on trajectory long enough to hit a target. Even a
slow DC3 could outrun a F16 to the kamikaze target is the former is low
and close and the latter at 30000ft. It simply takes too much time to move
into position and fire even assuming that the first shot hits home and
downs the aircraft. Afaik big jets take much more than one hit to disable
them.

Peter

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2001\09\14@084133 by Benjamin Bromilow

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From: Ron Anthony <RemoveMEronantspam_OUTspamKILLspamOPTONLINE.NET>

> Right now it is YOU who are part of  the problem.  All your good
intentions > are corrupted by your failure to

So when we find who did it, do you really think they'll say they did it
because we where too understanding and treated them too well? Don't be
facile. They did this not because they are "psycho" or "mad" but because
they feel strongly about something. So strongly that they are prepared to
pay with their life and the lives of others. They feel for whatever reason
that the US has wronged them.
Can you honestly say that kicking arse (or whatever you favour) will make
their hatred and the hatred of their children any less? Wake up and get
real. If you want civility in the world you have to lead by example.

> realize reality for what it is.  THANKS FOR NOTHING SIR.  You contribute
NOTHING.

No. He contributes everything. This man lost collegues and friends in the
WTC tragedy and yet he still has the foresight to see the only possibly way
forward. I think your sense of right and wrong is shown by the fact that you
are prepared to attack someone who has just suffered such a tragic loss.
Your lack of compasion is astounding.

Ben

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2001\09\14@093542 by Dale Botkin

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On Fri, 14 Sep 2001, Roman Black wrote:

> The Pentagon was a valid target. Fact. If any group
> believes it's at war with the US then the Pentagon
> is a very valid target.
>
> I am curious why Justin's post has caused such
> anger??

Roman, perhaps you missed the news -- the Pentagon was attacked using a
civilian airliner full of innocent noncombatants.  There *is* no valid
target for such a "weapon".  That attack also coincided with other
attacks, using similarly loaded civilian airliners, on nonmilitary
targets.  These attacks brought about the loss of thouands of innocent
lives.  That's why we're so angry.

Dale
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Hallo, this is Linus Torvalds and I pronounce Linux as Leennuks.
Hallo, this is Bill Gates and I pronounce 'crap' as 'Windows'.

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2001\09\14@104528 by Nick Taylor

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Excellent post Peter!

"Peter L. Peres" wrote:
>
> However they have names and faces, they teach others, and they learn from
> others who also have names and faces. The technology is sufficiently
> developed to go after them *forever*. Nowadays even a cave dwelling animal
> can be routed and trapped at will assuming that the hunters want that.
> They can take him or her alive or not, as required.

Going after them *forever* is exactly what I fear most!  If we take that
approach the US will turn into another Israel ... and eventually all of
the western world will live in daily fear of terrorist attacks.  I have
12 and 13 year old sons, and that is not the world that I want them to
inherit.
>
> I do not believe that a/c carriers and jet fighters are required for this.
> Afaik so far, all occupying armies known in history eventually lost face
> and lost the land they held. Armies are made for fighting other armies,
> not ruling and policing. There remains the problem of making the leaders
> see the point. Look at Iraq. Tons of bombs, general condamnation, and
> nothing changes. It takes something else than war to change and rule a
> country.

You're correct about invading armies ... most especially true when the
defenders have a religious fervor.  America and the Soviets paid huge
prices and gained nothing in Viet Nam and Afghanistan.
>
> I also do not believe that bringing terrorists to court is a solution.
> They do not speak that language and cases were recorded (and still are)
> where they simply hold the court in disdain and make fun of it. Maybe a
> review of those medieval methods that did work is in order. I do not like
> this but I want to travel safely. And you.

Bring them to court of killing them in place also is not a solution.  It
only give them an immediate free pass to their heavenly rewards, makes
them into martyrs, and gives others further incentive to follow in their
footsteps ... and the conflict does continue *forever*.

As I see it, our only option is too make the price of terrorism so high
as to be unthinkable.  Short of using nuclear weapons the only way that
will make terrorism's price unthinkable is carpet bombing (ala operation
Arc Light) of one or more major cities in each and every country that
supports terrorism ... an extremely drastic step, but the only one
that will stop future terrorist.

Regards,
 -NIck T.

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2001\09\14@111244 by Nick Taylor

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Benjamin Bromilow wrote:
>
> Can you honestly say that kicking arse (or whatever you favour) will make
> their hatred and the hatred of their children any less? Wake up and get
> real. If you want civility in the world you have to lead by example.

I heartily agree with you on one point Ben.  The US, the UK, and others
need to apologize for our past exploitation of third world countries ...
and start treating them as equals.  But, just leading by example is not
enough to prevent terrorist attacks.

As horrible as it was, Hiroshima and Nagasaki showed the world that a
nuclear world war is unthinkable.  We must show the world that terrorist
attacks are also unthinkable.  How?  By destroying the infrastructure
of all nations that support or promote terrorism.  Halfway measures will
not work.  We've learned that with the help of Saddam Hussein.  Invasion
will not work.  We learned that in Viet Nam and Afghanistan (I hope).
Mass destruction and loss of life will work ... as we learned in 1945.

Let us pray that Mr. Bush, Mr. Blair, and the rest of the western
world will make choices that lead to a world that is free of the fear
of terrorism.

  -Nick T.

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2001\09\14@120253 by Dan Michaels

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At 02:43 PM 9/13/01 -0400, you wrote:
>You asked:
>Question is, where you gonna send
> the cruise missiles?
>
>The answer:
>The missiles will follow them home. Those who harbor & comfort them will
>become targets as well.
..........

>John Ferrell
>6241 Phillippi Rd
>Julian NC 27283


John,

I have it on good authority there is a small cell of 6 or 8
terrorists living in Julian, NC.

The cruise missiles are scheduled to come in at noon today. Easy
target. People sitting in cafes and going to the grocery store.

Now do you understand? [doubtful]



>>
>> Try this scenario - a small band of 100 terrorists from
>> a dozen different countries get together and plan the attack.
>> Afterwards, they disband [into groups of 8-10] and go back to
>> their homes for 6 months. Question is, where you gonna send
>> the cruise missiles?
>>

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2001\09\14@121745 by Roman Black

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Dale Botkin wrote:
>
> On Fri, 14 Sep 2001, Roman Black wrote:
>
> > The Pentagon was a valid target. Fact. If any group
> > believes it's at war with the US then the Pentagon
> > is a very valid target.
> >
> > I am curious why Justin's post has caused such
> > anger??
>
> Roman, perhaps you missed the news -- the Pentagon was attacked using a
> civilian airliner full of innocent noncombatants.  There *is* no valid
> target for such a "weapon".  That attack also coincided with other
> attacks, using similarly loaded civilian airliners, on nonmilitary
> targets.  These attacks brought about the loss of thouands of innocent
> lives.  That's why we're so angry.


Dale, yes I did see the news. I also comdemn the
terrorists actions and feel some of the emotion
that the US citizens must be feeling. :o(

But the level of emotion doesn't affect the validity
of the target. If some psycho person believes himself
to be at war with the USA the Pentagon is a valid
target. It's an excellent target. It's a sensible
target. Please let's not let a rational and sane
Piclist dissolve into heated emotional discussion
and personal attacks. I thought Justin's posts
were reasonably appropriate (he didn't swear or
attack anyone) he simply dared to express his views
on the matter. What was dismaying was the amount
of personal flame he received for some fairly tame
words. At no point did Justin say he liked, or agreed
with, or supported the terrorists.

We already see the terrorist's actions turning
piclisters against each other, it would be a shame
if a loss of freedom of speech follows.
-Roman

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2001\09\14@134705 by Dan Michaels

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Peter Peres wrote:

>> Whatever, point was, the guerillas disappear into the bushes,
>> leave the country, go home, lie low for 6 months or 3 years.
>> They have probably already done so. There is no standing army,
>> no front lines, etc, etc. They wait years to do things.
>
>However they have names and faces, they teach others, and they learn from
>others who also have names and faces. The technology is sufficiently
>developed to go after them *forever*. Nowadays even a cave dwelling animal
>can be routed and trapped at will assuming that the hunters want that.
>They can take him or her alive or not, as required.
...........
>


Peter, you took this somewhat out of context.

Along with the preceding lines, it was to illustrate that going
in to rout the terrorists where they "were" 2 months ago using
overwhelming force is probably unrealistic. They probably went
into hiding even before last tuesday.

Likewise, carpet bombing innocent populations where terrorists
may be residing is completely foolish, and will only make the
situation worse.

The US govt is working on solutions and telling everyone to stay
calm in the meantime. We should let them do their job, and hope
they do it well.

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2001\09\14@140307 by jamesnewton

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We also put a lot into rebuilding Japan and Germany (and Italy?) after WWII
(having learned from WWI that oppressing the conquered nation would lead to
a consuming hatred and another war). I think the bombing of Kaquadafi's
(sp?) palace is a better lesson of how to stop it. Don't hurt the people,
just teach the leader a lesson.

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2001\09\14@211053 by Dale Botkin

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On Sat, 15 Sep 2001, Roman Black wrote:

> But the level of emotion doesn't affect the validity
> of the target. If some psycho person believes himself
> to be at war with the USA the Pentagon is a valid
> target. It's an excellent target. It's a sensible
> target.

I still maintain:  There *is* no appropriate target for an airliner full
of civilians.  Period, no matter who you are, no matter what your beliefs,
no matter how desperate you think your condition may be.  That was my
point.

Dale
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2001\09\15@112735 by Reginald Neale

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> >Question is, where you gonna send
> > the cruise missiles?
> >
> >The answer:
> >The missiles will follow them home. Those who harbor & comfort them will
> >become targets as well.



>I have it on good authority there is a small cell of 6 or 8
>terrorists living in (your neighborhood).
>
>The cruise missiles are scheduled to come in at noon today. Easy
>target. People sitting in cafes and going to the grocery store.
>
>Now do you understand? [doubtful]


  Confucius say: When wisdom is needed, force is of little use.

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2001\09\17@020852 by Herbert Graf

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{Quote hidden}

       True, the Pentagon IS a "valid" target, IN WARTIME!! It is NOT a valid
target when you are suing a plane full of innocent cilivlians. I think that
is the point.

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2001\09\17@110709 by Nick Taylor

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Herbert Graf wrote:
>
> True, the Pentagon IS a "valid" target, IN WARTIME!! It is NOT a valid
> target when you are suing a plane full of innocent cilivlians. I think
> that is the point.

A third world country that feels the need to fight a super power there
is no other course of action that to employ guerrilla tactics which
include terrorism.  As I said in a previous post, this is a new type
of war (for us).  Just as in Viet Nam we used the snipers and ambush
attacks which we had deplored in WW2, we must adapt ... and adopt new
tactics which fit the situation.  The WW1 air war a "gentleman's war",
but we now live in a different world and our old rules of conduct no
longer apply ... either to our enemies or to us.

 -Nick T.

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2001\09\17@204827 by Brandon Fosdick

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"James Newton. Admin 3" wrote:
> ???
> "Your right to swing your arm stops where my nose begins"

I think Winsten Churchill said that. I seem to rember discussing it in a
high school class on ethics or something. I also think the quote was
closer to, "A man's right to swing his fist ends where another man's
nose begins", and I may be really reaching here, but I think it was said
while he inspected a city that had been bombarded by V2's.

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2001\09\17@225255 by Russell McMahon

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> "James Newton. Admin 3" wrote:
> > ???
> > "Your right to swing your arm stops where my nose begins"
>
> I think Winsten Churchill said that. I seem to rember discussing it in a
> high school class on ethics or something. I also think the quote was
> closer to, "A man's right to swing his fist ends where another man's
> nose begins", and I may be really reaching here, but I think it was said
> while he inspected a city that had been bombarded by V2's.

Apparently it was -

       Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes

       "The right to swing my fist ends where the other man's nose begins."

       http://www.sodabob.com/Constitution/otherquotes.asp


And many more goodish quotes (somewhat) related to the US Bill of Rights


RM

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