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PICList Thread
'[OT]: The value of a donation'
2001\04\29@121122 by Roman Black

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face
Bob Ammerman wrote:
>
> Milan pronounced:
>
> <SNIP>
>
> >I allways can offer to help somene with some advice or idea. Maybe to write
> some >oftware (or to send cracked version or crack for commercial
> software...)...The best >stuff we have here is knoweledge....and piracy, of
> course..
>
> >Milan
>
> Please, please, please tell me this was sarcasm.


Bob, I don't want to sound as though I am defending
piracy but really the piclist should be greater than
any one person's social or political views. Even in
Australia where I am, and I consider it to be a wealthy,
lucky country the average wage is pehaps half of the
average wage in the USA, and many technological items
cost much more here. Two or three times as much.

When people like Milan and Alexandre talk about things
like someone giving them a 16F84 makes all the difference
you have to wonder about the things we take for granted.
I order 16F84 in the 100's or 500's. Who cares if I
fry one? But to someone in a country where they earn
many times less than you and things cost many times
more to buy, you must expect a difference in the value
of items and the way they are treated.

So you might think it is right to spend one week's
wages and buy the latest compiler, but if you were
really struggling to feed your family and the new
compiler cost a YEARS wages maybe that would change
your views? I know there have been some strong threads
here about intellectual property, but if some people
are too poor to EVER afford your software does it hurt
you economically if maybe some of them use it without
permission? Maybe this is like a de-facto form
or charity where the rich help the needy anyway.
The world balances out, it always has.

I respect your moral values but I also respect
other people's values and try to remember that
my values are for me. :o)
-Roman

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2001\04\29@130014 by myke predko

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Milan,

I'm disturbed by the request for cracked software (along with many people).
It seems discordant to me to ask for people to both donate and steal.  It is
one thing to appeal for older unused hardware from the owners and it is
another to ask people to break agreements which they have regarding
software.

Rather than asking for cracked software from people on the PICList, why
don't you appeal for legitimate limited use licenses of the software from
the owners?  I would be surprised if you received unconditional rejections
if you were to plead your case to the publishers and ensured that the
software was not distributed beyond the limits to which it was given.

myke
{Original Message removed}

2001\04\29@130648 by Bob Blick

face
flavicon
face
>I respect your moral values but I also respect
>other people's values and try to remember that
>my values are for me. :o)

It's a big world and there is no black and white answer. It's like saying
"killing is bad". That's not always true. How you feel about it(and how the
laws deal with it) vary depending on the conditions. In the US, a rich
person killing a poor person is considered less bad than the other way
around. I won't even get into race when it comes to justice in the US. Most
white people don't think the law treats people differently based on race.
Ask a non-white person the same question sometime.

This leads back to the original topic, "the value of a donation". If you
have no money, an old piece of test equipment has more value. I think we
all can agree with that. Clearly, when it comes to software piracy, there
are lots of opinions :-)

Cheerful regards,

Bob

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2001\04\29@141227 by Sean H. Breheny

face picon face
Hi Bob,

At 10:04 AM 4/29/01 -0700, you wrote:
>It's a big world and there is no black and white answer. It's like saying
>"killing is bad". That's not always true. How you feel about it(and how the
>laws deal with it) vary depending on the conditions. In the US, a rich

Saying that people's opinions and laws on killing vary is a lot different
than saying that the actual moral rightness or wrongness of killing varies.

>person killing a poor person is considered less bad than the other way
>around. I won't even get into race when it comes to justice in the US. Most
>white people don't think the law treats people differently based on race.
>Ask a non-white person the same question sometime.

I haven't seen examples of the "rich person killing a poor person being
considered less bad", except that maybe when a rich person dies it gets
more media coverage, or there is more money to pay to lawyers for "wrongful
death" suits,etc. Is that what you were talking about? I could be wrong, I
just haven't seen many examples that I would describe that way.

I agree on the race issue, though, and it isn't the only example. In almost
any case where what you are saying or doing is unpopular, some of the
police feel more free to mistreat you.


>This leads back to the original topic, "the value of a donation". If you
>have no money, an old piece of test equipment has more value. I think we
>all can agree with that. Clearly, when it comes to software piracy, there
>are lots of opinions :-)

I couldn't agree more with Roman's call to donate. I'm not completely sure
how I feel on the issue of software piracy in poor countries. Certainly,
they have a more legitimate excuse than those who have money. And I almost
buy the argument that it doesn't hurt the company because they couldn't pay
anyway. I'll have to think more about it. But, I don't really care what
people's opinions are about it, I only care if they can express why it is
right or wrong, so that we can discover whether it is right or wrong and
abide by that regardless of what everyone else thinks.


>Cheerful regards,
>
>Bob

Sean

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2001\04\29@143937 by Milan Pavlica (YU7AEC)

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myke predko wrote:

> Milan,
>
> I'm disturbed by the request for cracked software (along with many people).
> It seems discordant to me to ask for people to both donate and steal.  It is
> one thing to appeal for older unused hardware from the owners and it is
> another to ask people to break agreements which they have regarding
> software.

Are you sure that everybody on this list use full registered software? That NO
ONE EVER break licence agreement??? I would not bet on that...
If i keeped my mouth shut, and never say that i use eg. hacked version of
Win,Office etc, anyone never suspect on me.
Again, I HAVEN'T called on piracy, I just told, what is happening here..
I NEVER wrote crack, and I NEVER manually crack any software...
Also, i do not remeber that i ever asked on this list to send me some software
and/or crack...

> Rather than asking for cracked software from people on the PICList, why
> don't you appeal for legitimate limited use licenses of the software from
> the owners?  I would be surprised if you received unconditional rejections
> if you were to plead your case to the publishers and ensured that the
> software was not distributed beyond the limits to which it was given.

Yeah, i dont need to mention, that i have emailed to a LOT of companies (do not
need to mention their names, but they are well-known companies), which are
developing PCB software, compilers, programmers, simulators etc...i got 0 (zero)
answers.No one reanswer me to ask how to help - to get lower price or some other
idea. Simple politic - "don't have money - can't use software..."
And, also, i will ask you how you will act after 10years of isolation, when on
10km from you is war...Normal pay here (my both parents) for ONE month is 70$
!!!!
Claculate how long them (and me) need to work to buy a simple programmer,
compiler or some PCB draft software...
Of course, that $70 is brutto - where is to pay taxes etc...how much i have
cashe lefted?
I dont offer you a piracy - i just told how it work here... "Take-it&shut - or
leave-it"


> myke
> {Original Message removed}
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2001\04\29@150922 by Bill Westfield

face picon face
   I couldn't agree more with Roman's call to donate. I'm not
   completely sure how I feel on the issue of software piracy in
   poor countries. Certainly, they have a more legitimate excuse
   than those who have money. And I almost buy the argument that it
   doesn't hurt the company because they couldn't pay anyway.

I think... What bothers me about using cracked software when you can't
afford the real version is...  There ARE cheaper software alternatives, and
there ARE companies who have "non-comercial" and freeware versions of their
software, and there IS freeware from all sorts of places (of widely varying
quality, of course.)  By using a cracked C compiler instead of JAL freeware
or the free 16F84 version of ??'s C compiler , you are not only failing to
support the vendor of the cracked software, but you are ALSO failing to
support the authors and/or communities of the software that you CAN afford.

The Microsofts of the world can probably survive cracked versions in the
hands of poor software geniuses, but freeware survives ONLY on the basis
of its continued use by a community, and usually on the feedback and
contributions from that community as well.  Cracking microsoft may be
illegal, but failing to support the software that you CAN afford is just
stupid...  I also find it difficult to comprehend why someone "needs" a
cracked microsoft word when we'd probably all be better off if they were
creating plain ascii documents in a micro-emacs clone instead...

BillW

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2001\04\29@151551 by Peter Tiang

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Hi Milan,

   I've got to admire you.

   Given everything that's working against you,
   you're still interested in learning/developing on the PIC.
   Hard to say about the pampered engineers
   that came our way these days.

   I think you'll be successful one day, just
   hang in there.

Regards,
Peter Tiang

==============================================

{Original Message removed}

2001\04\29@151801 by Jim Paul

picon face
To all,

I resepct these views.  I understand where you are coming from.   And I
can see that what you say makes sense.   And it may be justifiable from
the point of view of those people affected.   I won't argue that.  And yes,
these views are pertaining to you.  You are the one who has to live with
them.
But at some point in time, you will change your mind about your point of
view.  I guarantee it.   I'm not here to judge anyone or anything they do.
But I am saying that my views say to me that cracking software for any
reason
is not right.  I will not do it.  And I will not knowingly deal qith anyone
that does.

If anyone, on this list or otherwise, disagrees with this and doesn't want
to deal
with me, that's your perogitive.  This is a free list and many of us live in
a free country.
But my stance still stands.

I'm done now.   I'll sign off.


Regards,


Jim
{Original Message removed}

2001\04\29@151805 by uter van ooijen & floortje hanneman

picon face
> Of course, that $70 is brutto - where is to pay taxes etc...how much i
have
> cashe lefted?

I have some sympathy for your viewpoint, I would guess that this level of
cost-per-hour leaves you in a unique position to either
- write realy good software (using free tools), sell it for a very low
price, and put all those $$$-hungry companies out of business
- roam the internet to find and identify the realy good free software and
use that, never needing the $$$-companies SW (and make a good index page
about the SW you selected)
Yet this seldom seems to happen. Why?
Wouter

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2001\04\29@162030 by Milan Pavlica (YU7AEC)

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Jim Paul wrote:

> To all,
>
> I resepct these views.  I understand where you are coming from.   And I
> can see that what you say makes sense.   And it may be justifiable from
> the point of view of those people affected.   I won't argue that.  And yes,
> these views are pertaining to you.  You are the one who has to live with
> them.
> But at some point in time, you will change your mind about your point of
> view.  I guarantee it.

Sure, when i will have money i guarantee that I WILL pay for usage of software.!

I never say that i DO NOT want to pay for it...

{Quote hidden}

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2001\04\29@162033 by Milan Pavlica (YU7AEC)

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wouter van ooijen & floortje hanneman wrote:

{Quote hidden}

I haved same idea..
With one my friend, we start to develop PCB&SCH software which have looked
like on ACCEL EDA, but with option "stoled" from Protel, OrCAD etc...
We was at half of project, when on my comp, where was source codes, sudenlly,
on my harddrive, i got some "nice" viruse, and BOOM - whole that partition
for programin were blown...
Then, was end of vacation, school start again, and we havent much time...but
now, when i finish admission for faculty and get pass all those exams, i will
be free from july to october, and we have again idea to write that
software...
And guess what - we dealed to that software to be FREE!!!!!!
Free for download, and if u want it on CD with printed manual, a few $$
I think that on that way, there will be easier to do some PCB &SCH design...
Hope that we will finish it...not only stay on idea...
Milan

> Wouter
>
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2001\04\29@165355 by Alexandre Domingos F. Souza

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>So you might think it is right to spend one week's
>wages and buy the latest compiler, but if you were
>really struggling to feed your family and the new
>compiler cost a YEARS wages maybe that would change
>your views? I know there have been some strong threads
>here about intellectual property, but if some people
>are too poor to EVER afford your software does it hurt

       I do agree with you, Roman. I've bought almost every piece of software that I use. The pieces I haven't, are because of the HIGH price, and the unflexibility of the author in getting money payments (I don't have an international credit card). And just for the knowing of it, let me tell you all that a Picstart here in Brazil (yes, not the pro) costs about 2 months of my work. (except landlord payment). Now you see in what situation we are.

       So good that now we have **free** software to use. I'm using easytrax for almost 8 years. Almost all my software is free, and I don't use linux only because I have no patience to fiddle with it. For a while.

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2001\04\29@175042 by James Newton

face picon face
What he said... Nicely put Bill.

I can see both sides of the issue and the only positive outcome I see is
that open source projects can benefit us all through the participation of
brilliant minds in all parts of the world.

But, again, the internet doesn't do "physical" very well, so I join in
urging people to help out with chips, programmers, etc.. when possible. I
know that when I have sent hardware to the 3rd world to support a good mind,
I have been rewarded many times over.

James Newton, PICList Admin #3
.....jamesnewtonKILLspamspam.....piclist.com
1-619-652-0593 phone
http://www.piclist.com

{Original Message removed}

2001\04\29@180031 by James Newton

face picon face
Please let me know what I can do to support your development. I know of only
one other open source project which is at
http://sourceforge.net/projects/qscad/ Pure Tcl/Tk EDA Package. Schematic
capture through to PCB layout. Has Part editor as well as editor for
Schematic and PCB Decals.

At some point in the future, I'm going to sponsor an adapter design contest
for an SMD uP and one  the requirements will be that the design use an open
source tool.

Let me know if I'm missing one.

James Newton, PICList Admin #3
EraseMEjamesnewtonspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTpiclist.com
1-619-652-0593 phone
http://www.piclist.com

{Original Message removed}

2001\04\29@204755 by Andy N1YEW

picon face
I agree also because I dont have a job and most software companies charge
too much.  It might take me a year to get enough money to buy windows(~100
bucks).  Needless to say I download most of my stuff at a friends who has
cable.

Andy
PS: Anyone want to employ me?  Email me for a resume if you are interested
because I know a lot of languages and OSes.
{Original Message removed}

2001\04\29@225647 by myke predko

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face
Milan,

> > I'm disturbed by the request for cracked software (along with many
people).
> > It seems discordant to me to ask for people to both donate and steal.
It is
> > one thing to appeal for older unused hardware from the owners and it is
> > another to ask people to break agreements which they have regarding
> > software.
>
> Are you sure that everybody on this list use full registered software?
That NO
> ONE EVER break licence agreement??? I would not bet on that...
> If i keeped my mouth shut, and never say that i use eg. hacked version of
> Win,Office etc, anyone never suspect on me.
> Again, I HAVEN'T called on piracy, I just told, what is happening here..
> I NEVER wrote crack, and I NEVER manually crack any software...
> Also, i do not remeber that i ever asked on this list to send me some
software
> and/or crack...

Maybe I misinterpreted the comment or misattributed to you: "Maybe to write
some software (or to send cracked version or crack for commercial
software...).".  If I did I apologize.

If I didn't, please explain what you meant.

> > Rather than asking for cracked software from people on the PICList, why
> > don't you appeal for legitimate limited use licenses of the software
from
> > the owners?  I would be surprised if you received unconditional
rejections
> > if you were to plead your case to the publishers and ensured that the
> > software was not distributed beyond the limits to which it was given.
>
> Yeah, i dont need to mention, that i have emailed to a LOT of companies
(do not
> need to mention their names, but they are well-known companies), which are
> developing PCB software, compilers, programmers, simulators etc...i got 0
(zero)
> answers.

Actually, I think you *do* need to mention this.

> No one reanswer me to ask how to help - to get lower price or some other
> idea. Simple politic - "don't have money - can't use software..."

Who were the companies?  I would appreciate it if you would publish the
companies, your emails to them and their
replies.  Maybe I'm completely off base on what I'm saying below.

> And, also, i will ask you how you will act after 10years of isolation,
when on
> 10km from you is war...Normal pay here (my both parents) for ONE month is
70$
> !!!!
> Claculate how long them (and me) need to work to buy a simple programmer,
> compiler or some PCB draft software...
> Of course, that $70 is brutto - where is to pay taxes etc...how much i
have
> cashe lefted?
> I dont offer you a piracy - i just told how it work here...
"Take-it&shut - or
> leave-it"

I feel like I've walked into a trap with this one.

The issue of whether or not anybody on the list is using software illegally
is not an issue in this discussion.   Along with this, I don't think its
possible to rationally discuss what a "have not" country is entitled to.

The issue is whether or not it is appropriate to request/offer cracked
software.

Personally, I am a firm believer that anybody who creates something has the
right to specify under what conditions that material is distributed.  If a
company/author will only distribute an application at exorbitant prices then
I don't see any problem with it - I'm sure they most could legitimately
argue that their costs are based on making a specific profit for overhead,
investor dividends and whatever.

Having said this, I do not see any reason why it would be inappropriate
emailing them asking for help, setting up a page accusing them of gouging
poor countries or even petitioning a national government to negotiate
changes in how the application is distributed in certain parts of the world.
A great example of the latter is South Africa demanding (and getting) lower
cost AIDs medications.

You may not appreciate it, or downplay it because the conditions aren't as
desperate as what you are living in, but the people working in the big, rich
software companies are writing code for the same reasons you are; to feed
their families and make their lives nicer.  It's as simple as that.

Having said this, I think there are a lot of different ways to work with
them and end up with everyone happy and, ultimately, prosperous.

myke

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2001\04\30@103159 by Mohamed Eldesoky

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About the Microsoft and Word
There are some alternatives like Star Office from Sun which is completely
free.

Mohamed Eldesoky
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Life is to try.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
{Original Message removed}

2001\04\30@161234 by Bruce Cannon

picon face
Setting aside the intellectual property issues for a moment and looking at
the underlying message of the original post, I know for a FACT that people
on this list would be happy to send their old tools to other people on this
list in need.

Maybe some clever person could even organize/formalize some sort of format
to facilitate exchange?  In any event, there are a lot of smart people out
there who need tools, there's a lot of unused tools sitting on shelves and
even getting tossed.  I, for example, have untold thousands of dollars in
useless (to me) software (last version of Office or a compiler), hardware
(earlier programmer, emulator), and books (electronics, programming, PC) in
my lab.  And I assume that I might be less obsolescence-endowed than more
experienced technologists.

Helping them would help us too, I'm convinced of that (but don't think the
debate of that question is really PICLIST material).  At any rate it sure
wouldn't cost much.

Bruce Cannon
Silicon Crucible
(510) 787-6870
1228 Ceres ST Crockett CA 94525

Remember: electronics is changing your world...for good!

> {Original Message removed}

2001\04\30@165712 by jamesnewton

face picon face
If someone would take the time to write a little ASP page (VBScript,
JScript, or even PerlScript) or .exe (Cgi-bin with source) with an MDB or
SQL or whatever database for registering old hardware and provide a function
for people to specify what countries they are willing to donate into or
collect requests for that hardware and forward the requests to the owner, I
would be happy to host it on piclist.com. I'll add it to my todo list, but
it will be down the ways a bit.

---
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jamesnewtonspamspam_OUTpiclist.com 1-619-652-0593
PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com or .org

{Original Message removed}

2001\04\30@184350 by Alexandre Domingos F. Souza

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>Setting aside the intellectual property issues for a moment and looking at
>the underlying message of the original post, I know for a FACT that people
>on this list would be happy to send their old tools to other people on this
>list in need.

       Great!

>even getting tossed.  I, for example, have untold thousands of dollars in
>useless (to me) software (last version of Office or a compiler), hardware
>(earlier programmer, emulator), and books (electronics, programming, PC) in

       Do you have an emulator/ICD for MCS-51 laying around there??? :o))) These are HARD to come by in Brazil...

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2001\04\30@190045 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
> Yet this seldom seems to happen. Why?
> Wouter

I've been thinking about these alternatives and others and about why some
people never seem to take them. I think that the reason is the same as for
chronic poverty, lack of freedom etc. There is something there that is
wrong inside. Something essential, like people thinking in ways that lead
to those disasters. There has to be a reason why a homeless person in the
'west' is more wealthy than a working family in other places. I think that
a good start would be to define 'wealth' *at the same time* as defining
your position towards it. I.e. don't speak 'in general', think about
yourself, what you think and say is 'good' and what you want to have
*right now* or in the near future (perhaps by necessity). Try to see where
you would be living if most people would actually want the same thing as
you (self-hypocrisy does not work, neither do utopias, and you can only
lie to yourself for as long as you can physically bear it). I'm very
curious to see the outcome ;-). I know it was interesting to see my own
thoughts on this. I'd have to live in the west of the USA in the late
1800's ;-).

Peter

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2001\04\30@192950 by Alexandre Domingos F. Souza

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>chronic poverty, lack of freedom etc. There is something there that is
>wrong inside. Something essential, like people thinking in ways that lead
>to those disasters. There has to be a reason why a homeless person in the
>'west' is more wealthy than a working family in other places. I think that

       Yep, there is. It's called **education** and **development**. People in Brazil isn't poor only because they don't have money. People in USA can live with almost any deccent work! If you are a "wise" man (e.g.: got any education), you can get a broken TV on the trash, and fix it. Or at least, learn to fix it. The state and the "open mindness" of the people makes him able of it. In Brazil, you will rarely find an old B&W picture, forget an old television :o) I hope you understand what I say: "the west" people are more educated and live in a more developed (state, place, people, market, culture, et al) than us, Brazilians.

       People born almost equal - there is no noticiable diference between newborn babies, unless it has some chronical deffect. But the quality of education and values they get on their house, is what bring him to be a good or a bad one. And the place that he/she lives, define the educational level (note two variables here: QUALITY and LEVEL of education) of the being. These togheter bring a better or a worse people. What do you thing of a people that grows hearing musics like "a little slap doesn't hurt" with a dancer slapping her big buttocks or something like "I'm a tiger, I'll launch you onto the bad, and will put you LOTS of pressure". Dunno if you can understand in english, but in portuguese, this is the kind of music that defines all the girls as bitches, and the innocent people likes to sing it!!! :oPPP

{Quote hidden}

       AAahhh, this is a very interesting talk. My life changed when I changed my views of "wealth" and "goodliving", and now, even being a poor man (e.g.: Low income, no own house, no car, only a bicycle :o)) I feel myself happy!!! It's because now I can

       1 - Learn
       2 - Develop my abilities
       3 - Plan the future
       4 - Do something that WILL bring me money in a future (one day comes after the other...)

       And in the future I will

       5 - Be able to save and buy a small house
       5 - Be able to save and buy an used car.

       The secret? Think low, and think farther. Every step you get, is one more step you can add to your list. The list never grow too much, and you can acomplish your goals, a little by little, and someday you "get there".

       But note that everything said here is in "this way" because

       1 - I had a good education at my home
       2 - I had a good education in the basics
       3 - I learned to be an honest and correct man
       4 - I learned to disguise sh*t of quality things

       So, **I learned**, things that not all Brazilians are able to get, even at home.

       Well, too much of sociology for a PIC list, let's go back to the 14-bit chat :o)

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2001\04\30@225646 by Douglas Wood

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To add to this discussion, perhaps instead of simply listing every piece of
used equipment or software one might have, maybe those in need could create
a list of requested materials. I, too, have a near fortune in shelfware and
a storage locker full of old(er), unused computer (dare I say it?) "junk".
However, rather than having to search a big list (or lists) of available
stuff, maybe we could work it the other way round: tell us what you need or
would like and we'll see if we have anything that fits the bill. That's kind
of how the PICLIST works anyway: Someone in need of help will ask and us of
the "List" respond.

Douglas Wood
Software Engineer
spamBeGonedbwoodspamBeGonespamkc.rr.com

Home of the EPICIS Development System for the PIC and SX
http://epicis.piclist.com

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2001\04\30@231403 by Bill Westfield

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Not to rain on anyone's parade, but if "we" are really going to organize
"thosands of dollars in "useless" software, hardware, and documentation,
I'd sorta rather see it go to technical programs at schools and such than
"random" individuals that happen to be on PICLIST.

Postage is a problem - even shipping things within the US can run larger
amounts of "real money" than the equipment is worth.  International shipping
ought to be even worse.

one-at-a-time and rather minor contributions are fine, of course...

BillW

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2001\04\30@233600 by Jose S. Samonte Jr.

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Thank you sir Douglas! =)
Sir, do you have a good PIC programmer, which you don't use anymore?

Douglas Wood <dbwoodEraseMEspam.....KC.RR.COM> wrote:
To add to this discussion, perhaps instead of simply listing every piece of
used equipment or software one might have, maybe those in need could create
a list of requested materials. I, too, have a near fortune in shelfware and
a storage locker full of old(er), unused computer (dare I say it?) "junk".
However, rather than having to search a big list (or lists) of available
stuff, maybe we could work it the other way round: tell us what you need or
would like and we'll see if we have anything that fits the bill. That's kind
of how the PICLIST works anyway: Someone in need of help will ask and us of
the "List" respond.

Douglas Wood
Software Engineer
EraseMEdbwoodspamkc.rr.com

Home of the EPICIS Development System for the PIC and SX
http://epicis.piclist.com

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2001\04\30@233613 by Alexandre Domingos F. Souza

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>To add to this discussion, perhaps instead of simply listing every piece of
>used equipment or software one might have, maybe those in need could create
>a list of requested materials. I, too, have a near fortune in shelfware and
>a storage locker full of old(er), unused computer (dare I say it?) "junk".
>However, rather than having to search a big list (or lists) of available
>stuff, maybe we could work it the other way round: tell us what you need or
>would like and we'll see if we have anything that fits the bill. That's kind
>of how the PICLIST works anyway: Someone in need of help will ask and us of
>the "List" respond.

       I already said, I'm crazy for an ICD, for PIC or MCS-51 :o)))

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'[OT]: The value of a donation'
2001\05\01@053731 by Peter Tiang
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Not to mention that you'll most likely hit a
big problems with foreign Custom & Excise.

I once shipped an USB MCU emulator into
Malaysia (not exactly 3rd world but...)
and had a hard time convincing the Custom
officers that this is a programming tool
and should be only taxed 15% instead of
the ridiculous 40% tax for "assembled PCB".

They are so thick... or at least pretend to
be thick in order to solicit bribes, which I
would never offer.

So, I would say think carefully before going
on a Salvation Army style charity program.
Make sure the shipper and "shipee" understands
the rules & regulations regarding importing
"goods" from another country.

Cheers,
Peter Tiang

===================================================

{Original Message removed}

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