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'[OT]: The Road to Ruination (reposted with OT tag)'
2001\06\23@191028 by michael brown

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Damn it, first I send it to the wrong address and then Outlook strips the OT
from the header when I forward it to the list.  Can't win for losing.

James Newton thoughtfully offered:

>You want this "job" you can have it Bob. I'm sure you will do fine and show
>a much more even and fair hand than I. But are you committed enough to the
>list to do what it takes? Have you spent the time to build an FAQ? Setup
and
>Archive? Host it? Police the list? Bring constant unmarked Off Topics and
>flame wars to almost a dead stop? I could sure use some help, are you
>volunteering?

I tried to stay out of this, but I can no longer resist.

Here we all go down the road to ruin.  It starts with non-retractable
statements like this.  Off list correspondence splattered all over the list
and other grievous claims which are largely imagined.  It will continue with
even more permanent hard feelings and ugly verbiage.  It will end with
shattered friendships and a smaller list with possibly a new admin.  Why? Is
this all necessary?  Has anyone really been wronged here?  I submit that no
one has suffered any real damage.  However, we all shortly will.

I see two groups of people here.  One who somehow thinks that information
that was publicly posted is still some kind of personal possession.  Another
who doesn't really give a damn, but is willing to become heatedly involved
for the cause.  Most of the argument here seems to be over the potential
possibility of something that hasn't even happened yet.  It looks to me like
a scapegoat has already been chosen.

How many people here have taken a piece of code, a technique, or even an
idea that was offered to the list and used it for personal pecuniary
interests?  Who here hasn't begged, borrowed, or stolen something from the
archive, the internet, or even a book and modified it for personal use?  How
many times was credit given or royalty paid for the information?  I would
imagine that the closest anyone came to this was to say, "hey, thanks for
the info, it really got me out of a jam".  Often, I see that this is not
even what occurs as usually the threads end without leaving a clue as to
whether the problem is solved or not.  We all can safely deduce that the
problem was either solved or the guy left because of "insult poisoning".

This list is a cooperative.  Everyone here is in it for one simple reason.
They have a need and this list fulfills that need.  Who here (besides James)
feels that this has been a personal burden on them, and wishes that they had
never partook of it?  Does anyone think that they have put more into the
list than they have received from it?  Everyone here depends upon this list,
simply because where else are you going to find 2000 technical brains to
pick for free?

The bottom line here is that James is in control of the list.  He is the
"supreme entity" in charge.  He is being accused of a "travesty" that hasn't
even been proven.  He says that he has no intention of profiting from the
list, doesn't he deserve the benefit of the doubt until he or someone else
proves otherwise?  Even if he does collect up some stuff and sell it, are we
all to be pissed because we didn't think of it first.


This is not intended to pick a side, but here goes anyway.  Lets go through
some basic facts:

Having had personal experience in this arena, I can attest that managing a
venture such as the piclist is allot more trouble than most of you might
imagine.  Believe me, this is a thankless, time consuming, pain in the ass
job that you don't want to do.  Witness the people whining about the  digest
and the "tragic loss of convenience" that they are currently suffering.
This kind of "job" requires countless hours of upkeep.  Is anyone paying him
for his troubles?

People have posted information to a "Public Forum".  Surely, no one thought
the information was going to remain some kind of "secret" that would never
leak to the outside world.

James has not been proven to have sold anything for a profit.  However, as I
said earlier, many others quite probably have pilfered the archives for
information that was put to use for personal monetary gain.  Sounds like a
case of lets kill the messenger because we don't like the message.

Your e-mail addresses are probably worth far more to James (as saleable
items) than any piece of code contained in the archive.  Has anyone here
been inundated with spam relating to engineering, if so, it sure looks like
it didn't start from here.  Consider yourselves lucky, as not too many
places that have your e-mail address are keeping it a secret.  If you all
will simply read the next privacy statement that you encounter when entering
into a contractual agreement of some kind, you will discover that they are
reserving the full and complete right to gather any and all pieces of
personal, demographic information on you and then offering them up for sale
to the highest bidder (although they call them affiliates so as not to upset
you).  Most privacy statements are simply there to mislead you into a false
sense of security, since they always start off by stating how your private
information will NEVER shown to anyone EXCEPT......................  The
exceptions are both wide and varied.


Does everyone here pursue those other "heinous violators of privacy" that
you encounter in every aspect of dealings with other business entities, with
the same diligence and vengeance that I am seeing here?  I suspect not.

I, for one, would not like to see this list destroyed or permanently damaged
over perceived problems.  I have mined vast amounts of knowledge and
personal experiences from this list, and I suspect that others have too.  I
have really enjoyed the OT threads that have caused much debate and
stimulation of brain cells.  I have not enjoyed this one tiny bit.

Please feel free to flame me if I have, again, stepped on any toes.  I will
give them all the consideration they so richly deserve.

Michael Brown
Instant Net Solutions
http://www.KillerPCs.net

"In the land of the blind, he who has one eye is king"

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different
ways.  See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.


2001\06\23@203748 by Dave Dilatush

picon face
michael brown <spam_OUTn5qmgTakeThisOuTspamAMSAT.ORG> wrote...

>How many people here have taken a piece of code, a technique, or even an
>idea that was offered to the list and used it for personal pecuniary
>interests?

I'm not disagreeing with anything you posted; I'm just a little
surprised at this rhetorical question as well as this ongoing "tempest
in a teapot" which prompted it.  Why is commercial use an issue here?

Is it not true that many- if not most- of the people who seek
information or assistance here on the Piclist are doing so in the
course of their work?  Sure, there are a number of hobbyists and
students who participate in this forum just for fun; but I've assumed
from the beginning that most of the requests for help come from people
who **ARE** going to use the requested information for "personal
pecuniary interests" as will, probably, many others who subscribe to
the list.

Isn't that what the Piclist is for?  Or is the material here somehow
restricted to "hobby use only", or to satisfy idle intellectual
curiosity?

I assume that when I answer someone's question here, the person
seeking the answer may very well profit financially from that
information, one way or another; and others might, too.  Nothing wrong
with that.

[snip]

>The bottom line here is that James is in control of the list.  He is the
>"supreme entity" in charge.  He is being accused of a "travesty" that hasn't
>even been proven.

I REALLY hope James isn't letting this business ruin his weekend.  As
far as I can see, he's doing a fine job.  Plain fact is, you can't
please everyone, and it's foolish to even try.

>Your e-mail addresses are probably worth far more to James (as saleable
>items) than any piece of code contained in the archive.  Has anyone here
>been inundated with spam relating to engineering...

Nope.  Three months on the Piclist, and nary a piece of
engineering-related spam.  Nada.

But I have noticed a recent flurry of extremely annoying "PROVEN WAYS
TO ENLARGE YOUR PENIS!" e-mails lately...

>I, for one, would not like to see this list destroyed or permanently damaged
>over perceived problems.

I wouldn't worry about it; I'm sure the list has weathered much worse
than this.  Those who are satisfied with its operation will stay, and
those who are not will go.

Cheers,

Dave

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different
ways.  See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.


2001\06\24@005318 by Jeff DeMaagd

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----- Original Message -----
From: Dave Dilatush <.....dilatushKILLspamspam@spam@HOME.COM>

> >The bottom line here is that James is in control of the list.  He is the
> >"supreme entity" in charge.  He is being accused of a "travesty" that
hasn't
> >even been proven.
>
> I REALLY hope James isn't letting this business ruin his weekend.  As
> far as I can see, he's doing a fine job.  Plain fact is, you can't
> please everyone, and it's foolish to even try.

Agreed, my message to the admin(s):  I appreciate your work and think you're
doing a great job.

> >I, for one, would not like to see this list destroyed or permanently
damaged
> >over perceived problems.
>
> I wouldn't worry about it; I'm sure the list has weathered much worse
> than this.  Those who are satisfied with its operation will stay, and
> those who are not will go.

I'm happy.  I'm staying.

Regarding the commercial use remarks, I generally avoid the list as a
resource when regarding commercial work but for private hobby projects it's
a great resource, although I haven't needed to ask many questions if at all.

Jeff

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2001\06\25@093715 by Lawrence Lile

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What?  You don't post work related stuff here?  Bring it on, dude!  A week
does not go by that I don't ask a question releated to my work.   Go ahead
and do the same!  That harder the problem the better!

I did electronics as a hobby for 15 years, then it got out of hand so bad I
had to start charging for it, and when the smoke cleared, it was my job.
Job? Hobby?  What's the Diff?

The PICLIST can beat the answers from ANY of the email tech support outfits
that I have the pleasure of doing business with.  I have done experiments
with the likes of CCS, Microchip, and so on, posting the same question here
and to their tech support department.  The PICLIST can often answer a
question in 15 minutes or less, usually with three different ways of solving
the problem (or more), and all of them useful, and some with better jokes.
Usually the first response I get from a tech support department is off on a
tangent, and I have to re-focus their efforts to get a good answer.

I could look at this as a big timewaster.  But the times this community have
come through for me with help on tough problems make every minute I spend
telling newbies about the best way to etch PC boards or how to hold parts in
a board while soldering them (or whatever simple subject) worth it.

-- Lawrence Lile

{Original Message removed}

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