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'[OT]: TRAGEDY IN NEW YORK, EASILY PREVENTABLE'
2001\09\12@065647 by Ron Anthony

flavicon
face
Hello All.  A somber day indeed.  Incredible details:  All 4 planes are now
presumed to have been taken over by knife wielding terrorists, approximately
6 men per aircraft.  How did we allow a half-dozen simple steak knives to
become multiplied by such destructive power, effectively turning these few
dollars worth of short range interpersonal weapons (simple knives) into
fuel-laden guided missile that have now changed the world?

Details are now that the terrorists told the captain "If you don't open the
cockpit door we will kill the stewardess we are holding right now".  As
simple policy this proposal must be ignored across the board.  We must NEVER
let the controls to be given to madmen.  At all costs, control of the
aircraft must never fall into enemy hands, and in this case, religeous
psychipaths on their exultant way to "paradise".

Telling the pilots to ignore all demands and leave the cockpit door locked
at all costs would have made this factors of magnitude less both in terms of
lives lost and countless billions of dollars in damage.

The pilot, crew, and passengers of the 4th aircraft are couragous heroes,
apparently mouting a physical challenge to the terrorists and ditching the
plane in a rural area.  All hands lost.  And a smoking hole in the ground.
But, no multiple-thousands of casualities on the ground in the world's
largest and most famous city.  And no "victory" for these madmen to inspire
the next generations of psychopatchs, already well formed -- witness the
children in Palestine dancing in the streets like it's a national holiday.

My friends, it's time to stop playing by gentleman's rules.  The murderer
wins over the pickpocket.  We need to strike pre-emptively in a massive
pro-active campaign to exterminate every last vestige of these irretrievable
madmen from every corner of the globe.

And, as a final note:  Bleeding heart liberals, go the hell home.  You're
USELESS.

Proud and Furious Citizen of the USA

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2001\09\12@070724 by uter van ooijen & floortje hanneman

picon face
> I think the worst tragedy is not the initial
> event, but the aftermath, both direct and also
> consequential.

I think the worst thing that can happen now is that the US launches some
(emotionally justified, to some people at least) massive attack (on the real
culprits, on some bandid group or nation - can such a thing exist? - or on
some innocent bystanders), creating a new set of (widowed, orphaned etc.)
desparate people, who become the next generation of terrorist launching even
worse (emotionally justified, to some - other! - people at least) attacks on
the US (on the military that lauched the attack, on the politicians, or on
innocent bystanders). This is how it has always been in the world (look at
Ireland, Spain, Israel, Yougoslavia, to name a few places). I really hope
that the real bandids are caught, trailed and convicted, but I also - even
more? - hope that no (more) innocent people are hurt. Having the same sex,
color, religion, economic status, etc of the - alledged or real - bandids is
not a crime!

> My friends, it's time to stop playing by gentleman's rules.  The murderer
> wins over the pickpocket.  We need to strike pre-emptively in a massive
> pro-active campaign to exterminate every last vestige of these
irretrievable
> madmen from every corner of the globe.

Wow, big words! I sure don't want to be your friend. I suggest you read
"sentimental agents in the Volleyen empire" (D.Lessing) before using bold
words again. Sticks and stones can break my bones, but it is words that make
people do the really bad things (like hijacking planes).

Wouter

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2001\09\12@071344 by D Lloyd

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face
At who/where are you going to strike? Strike at the wrong people and they
will strike back. Or, there is a possibility that other countries get
involved, escalation occurs and mutual destruction could be on the cards.

It's time to keep a cool head about this and find the *real people*
responsible.....not what media speculation has suggested. Once they are
found then action is justified.

Dan


To: PICLISTspamKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
cc:
From: Ron Anthony <.....ronantKILLspamspam.....OPTONLINE.NET>
Subject: [OT]: TRAGEDY IN NEW YORK, EASILY PREVENTABLE



Hello All.  A somber day indeed.  Incredible details:  All 4 planes are now
presumed to have been taken over by knife wielding terrorists,
approximately
6 men per aircraft.  How did we allow a half-dozen simple steak knives to
become multiplied by such destructive power, effectively turning these few
dollars worth of short range interpersonal weapons (simple knives) into
fuel-laden guided missile that have now changed the world?

Details are now that the terrorists told the captain "If you don't open the
cockpit door we will kill the stewardess we are holding right now".  As
simple policy this proposal must be ignored across the board.  We must
NEVER
let the controls to be given to madmen.  At all costs, control of the
aircraft must never fall into enemy hands, and in this case, religeous
psychipaths on their exultant way to "paradise".

Telling the pilots to ignore all demands and leave the cockpit door locked
at all costs would have made this factors of magnitude less both in terms
of
lives lost and countless billions of dollars in damage.

The pilot, crew, and passengers of the 4th aircraft are couragous heroes,
apparently mouting a physical challenge to the terrorists and ditching the
plane in a rural area.  All hands lost.  And a smoking hole in the ground.
But, no multiple-thousands of casualities on the ground in the world's
largest and most famous city.  And no "victory" for these madmen to inspire
the next generations of psychopatchs, already well formed -- witness the
children in Palestine dancing in the streets like it's a national holiday.

My friends, it's time to stop playing by gentleman's rules.  The murderer
wins over the pickpocket.  We need to strike pre-emptively in a massive
pro-active campaign to exterminate every last vestige of these
irretrievable
madmen from every corner of the globe.

And, as a final note:  Bleeding heart liberals, go the hell home.  You're
USELESS.

Proud and Furious Citizen of the USA

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2001\09\12@071800 by Adlam Frank

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I wonder if this forum was created to discuss this topic.  It is called
PICLIST and for a specific reason.

Can we use the correct forums to discuss this topic and not insult each
other?

{Original Message removed}

2001\09\12@072020 by Ron Anthony

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typo errors: in my previous posts, please read "psychipath" and
"psychopatchs" as:

"psychopaths"

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2001\09\12@074128 by Ron Anthony

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face
You are being far too specific.  I couldn't care less who "actually" did
this.  Let me get this straight:  If 20 people total pulled this off, you
want us to get these 20 madmen, and give them life in prison.  And, at
taxpayer expense, give them 3 sqaure meals a day, and warm, dry beds, and
cable television, until they die of old age, with full access to the
prison's health care system?  Even giving all perpetrators the death penalty
is meaningless.  That takes 10 years. And is irrelevant.

We know quite well who the usual suspects are.  It's time to lump them all
together, and call them the "official" list of rogue nations.  We need to
tell them all when any single terrorist incident occurs to US or US allies'
interests, all nations on the list will pay a price by absorbing measured
but nonetheless enormous surgical strikes aimed at their most critical
infrastructure.  And... consequences be DAMNED.  Escalation be DAMNED.  You
want a war of escalation, we WIN.  And, if you escalate, our rate of
escalation will be exponential to yours.

Our official policy to the rogue nations should be: "We fully understand
that you wish to murder every single US citizen and vanquish the Great
Satan.  We have no problem with your thoughts.  Think all you want.  But
should you try to translate your thoughts to reality in this regard, you
will find that the Great Satan is far too powerful to be hurt by you in any
statistically signifigant way.  We can absorb your greatest attack more than
millions-fold.  You haven't the means to detroy us.  And, you will learn
that attacking the Great Satan will be your own undoing, in the most
immediate fashion -- even if it requires our reluctant physical destruction
of your entire country, our reluctant extermination of your entire
population, and our reluctant annexing of your geographical landmass as the
next US state.  We beg you to leave us alone, and be yourselves, by
yourselves, in your own little corner of the world."

Our military might must no longer remain caged.  Reality is that we are the
strongest nation on the face of the Earth.  This is no mistake.  We've
EARNED it.  All democratic semi-rational nations have nothing to fear.  Only
the "official" list of rogue nations will be attacked.



{Original Message removed}

2001\09\12@082130 by Martin Hill

picon face
This is just the sort of attitude we need to maintain long-term world peace.
If in doubt, blow everybody else up until we are the only ones left, cos we
are bigger and more powerful than the rest.  Glad you don't have your finger
on "the button"

Martin

{Original Message removed}

2001\09\12@082747 by D Lloyd

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face
part 1 5978 bytes content-type:text/plain; charset=us-ascii
I see no point in even replying to that.

Dan




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Subject:  Re: [OT]: TRAGEDY IN NEW YORK, EASILY PREVENTABLE

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You are being far too specific.  I couldn't care less who "actually" did
this.  Let me get this straight:  If 20 people total pulled this off, you
want us to get these 20 madmen, and give them life in prison.  And, at
taxpayer expense, give them 3 sqaure meals a day, and warm, dry beds, and
cable television, until they die of old age, with full access to the
prison's health care system?  Even giving all perpetrators the death
penalty
is meaningless.  That takes 10 years. And is irrelevant.

We know quite well who the usual suspects are.  It's time to lump them all
together, and call them the "official" list of rogue nations.  We need to
tell them all when any single terrorist incident occurs to US or US allies'
interests, all nations on the list will pay a price by absorbing measured
but nonetheless enormous surgical strikes aimed at their most critical
infrastructure.  And... consequences be DAMNED.  Escalation be DAMNED.  You
want a war of escalation, we WIN.  And, if you escalate, our rate of
escalation will be exponential to yours.

Our official policy to the rogue nations should be: "We fully understand
that you wish to murder every single US citizen and vanquish the Great
Satan.  We have no problem with your thoughts.  Think all you want.  But
should you try to translate your thoughts to reality in this regard, you
will find that the Great Satan is far too powerful to be hurt by you in any
statistically signifigant way.  We can absorb your greatest attack more
than
millions-fold.  You haven't the means to detroy us.  And, you will learn
that attacking the Great Satan will be your own undoing, in the most
immediate fashion -- even if it requires our reluctant physical destruction
of your entire country, our reluctant extermination of your entire
population, and our reluctant annexing of your geographical landmass as the
next US state.  We beg you to leave us alone, and be yourselves, by
yourselves, in your own little corner of the world."

Our military might must no longer remain caged.  Reality is that we are the
strongest nation on the face of the Earth.  This is no mistake.  We've
EARNED it.  All democratic semi-rational nations have nothing to fear.
Only
the "official" list of rogue nations will be attacked.



{Original Message removed}
part 2 165 bytes content-type:application/octet-stream; (decode)

part 3 136 bytes
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2001\09\12@090844 by Russell McMahon

picon face
Ah well - James says it's OK so ...


I am a friend of the US, approve of its higher ideals, (while dismayed by
some of its deeds)  and much saddened by the events of the last few days.
For this reason I disagree with what Ron when he says -

> My friends, it's time to stop playing by gentleman's rules.  The murderer
> wins over the pickpocket.  We need to strike pre-emptively in a massive
> pro-active campaign to exterminate every last vestige of these
irretrievable
> madmen from every corner of the globe.

Alas, this is how the terrorists will win.
This plays directly into their hands.

Democracy and freedom DEMAND that you make it more possible for your enemy
to hurt you than it is for you to hurt them. When a free country starts
resorting to the tactics of their enemies then they have started down the
path to becoming that which they fight against. And ALL democracies do it.
None stand exempt. The freedoms which we all value so highly are in part won
by dark and untenable deeds worked on our behalves.

The challenge to stay free and democratic on behalf of the citizens of the
whole world is a worthy one and not one worth throwing away for the sake of
a few thosand - maybe even tens of thousands - innocents. As hard as that
may feel. Be strong - yes. But if we want eg China to be like the US 30
years from now and not the other way around then concepts such as "stop
playing by gentleman's rules.", "pre-emptive strike"  and "pro-active
campaign" must be shunned. Removing "every last vestige" is not only
impossible but will both guarantee the deaths of a significant number of
innocent people elsewhere and also provide more justification for the
Eastern countries to (often justifiably) hate the US still more.

> And, as a final note:  Bleeding heart liberals, go the hell home.  You're
> USELESS.

This is not, I think, bleeding heart liberalism. This is (I think) a desire
to protect what you (including Ron) value most. Play by the declared rules
of the system that you wish to preserve, even if it handicaps you unfairly,
or descend little by maybe-not-so-little into a repressive fascist state.


> Proud and Furious Citizen of the USA

       Lover of all the people of the world



Russell McMahon

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2001\09\12@090851 by Russell McMahon

picon face
Oh dear.

> We know quite well who the usual suspects are.  It's time to lump them all
> together, and call them the "official" list of rogue nations.  We need to
> tell them all when any single terrorist incident occurs to US or US
allies'
> interests, all nations on the list will pay a price by absorbing measured
> but nonetheless enormous surgical strikes aimed at their most critical
> infrastructure.  And... consequences be DAMNED.  Escalation be DAMNED.
You
> want a war of escalation, we WIN.  And, if you escalate, our rate of
> escalation will be exponential to yours.

I share your pain as well as I can from half a world away and no personal
imvolvement -
BUT

Do this and YOU lose big time.
So much for "bring me your ..."
So much for "land of the free and ..."
So much for "we hold these truths to be self evident ..".
This is substantially worse than what these cowards have presently done to
the US.
Deciding to arbitarily kill and maim innocents who will on average have had
nothing whatsoever to do with the evil being avenged is right out there in
Stalin and Pol Pot and Nazi holocaust territory.- the wreaking of revenge on
whoever we wish because we can.
The damage we would do ourselves would be enormous.

> Our official policy to the rogue nations should be: "We fully understand
> that you wish to murder every single US citizen and vanquish the Great
> Satan.  We have no problem with your thoughts.  Think all you want.  But
> should you try to translate your thoughts to reality in this regard, you
> will find that the Great Satan is far too powerful to be hurt by you in
any
> statistically signifigant way.  We can absorb your greatest attack more
than
> millions-fold.

But it's not true. A small nuke in a large city upsets the balance
immensely.
Anthrax or Prion diseases equally so.And these may well not be rogue
NATIONS. Despite what the terrorism experts are saying this could have been
done by anyone with a will and a quite modest budget (and twenty odd people
willing to die for the cause :-( ).

>You haven't the means to detroy us.  And, you will learn
> that attacking the Great Satan will be your own undoing, in the most
> immediate fashion -- even if it requires our reluctant physical
destruction
> of your entire country,

But the country may not "belong" to the miscreant. And there will ALWAYS be
innocents involved and these will ALWAYS be in the vast majority. Unless you
start counting the thoughts of the innocents as enough to condemn them,
despite what you say above.

>our reluctant extermination of your entire

overwhelmingly innocent

> population, and our reluctant annexing of your geographical landmass as
the
> next US state.  We beg you to leave us alone, and be yourselves, by
> yourselves, in your own little corner of the world."

The average citizen of eg Iraq may (not without some cause) hate the US
greatly but they are not guilty by your stated standards of the actions of
their leaders.

> Our military might must no longer remain caged.  Reality is that we are
the
> strongest nation on the face of the Earth.  This is no mistake.  We've
> EARNED it.  All democratic semi-rational nations have nothing to fear.
Only
> the "official" list of rogue nations will be attacked.

It's a "nice" dream but the reality is different.
The US depends on freedom of access to the markets of the world.
No man, or nation, is an island complete unto itself.
To live on the productive capaity of the world the US must enmseh itself
with the world market place - which is farirl\y probably part of what this
was all about.
Set yourself up as the new international Stalins and the guerilla warfare
will cripple your international commerce.

Justice ? - sure.
Something more than 10 life sentences each? - very probably.
Nuking (or functional equivalent) women and children who already fear you
even more than they hate you? - not unless yuou want to become
unrecognisable from your enemy.

Convinced you? - of course not !
But think about it anyway.

And I hope that those responsible are found quickly and brought to justice
in a manner which makes sense to all concerned.


regards


                   Russell McMahon


>
>
>
> {Original Message removed}

2001\09\12@092731 by James Newton. Admin 3

face picon face
I had to open my big fat mouth...
<SAD GRIN>

Please don't be sucked in by that unnecessary shot at Liberals. There is no
point, as Mr. Lloyd says, in replying to that.

And are we really so incompetent that we have to resort to mass violence to
solve our problems? If so, then I'm sure we will....

...it just makes it a bit hard for some of us to continue finding joy in
life.

James Newton, PICList Admin #3
EraseMEjamesnewtonspampiclist.com
1-619-652-0593 phone
http://www.piclist.com

{Original Message removed}

2001\09\12@125614 by Dan Michaels

flavicon
face
Martin Hill wrote:
........
>This is just the sort of attitude we need to maintain long-term world peace.
>If in doubt, blow everybody else up until we are the only ones left, cos we
>are bigger and more powerful than the rest.  Glad you don't have your finger
>on "the button"
>


Amen to this, Martin. At a time like this, let us hope that cooler
heads prevail.

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2001\09\13@144907 by John Ferrell

flavicon
face
We are off topic here, it should not be too much of an inconvenience.
Blowing off steam can only improve our aim.

John Ferrell
6241 Phillippi Rd
Julian NC 27283
Phone: (336)685-9606
Dixie Competition Products
NSRCA 479 AMA 4190  W8CCW
"My Competition is Not My Enemy"



----- Original Message -----
From: "Adlam Frank" <RemoveMEFADLAMspam_OUTspamKILLspamPETECH.AC.ZA>
To: <RemoveMEPICLISTTakeThisOuTspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 7:10 AM
Subject: Re: [OT]: TRAGEDY IN NEW YORK, EASILY PREVENTABLE


> I wonder if this forum was created to discuss this topic.  It is called
> PICLIST and for a specific reason.
>
> Can we use the correct forums to discuss this topic and not insult each
> other?
>
> {Original Message removed}

2001\09\14@015821 by Phil

flavicon
face
And we don't want you as a friend either, because the only people
you're a friend to are these terrorist!!
Phil
{Original Message removed}

2001\09\14@030912 by David Huisman

flavicon
face
It is always hard to make a personal view known without offending someone,
as we all
have our view of what is right and wrong. But, as this appears to be an open
forum
where we are free to express our views... here are mine.

If the mission of these extremists is to dominate the world with their
religion and
no other beliefs will be tolerated then I see no solution until either one
side or the
other is wiped out.

There does not seem to be anything that can be negotiated if these people
see the
western world as the "great satan", they will always be striving to destroy
us.

If it is a matter of us or them, then my vote is for us.

I think sometimes we must fight to retain the freedom that has been
established and the
culture and lifestyle that has so far developed. I understand our western
culture is far
from perfect and that there are hardships and injustices in various parts of
the world.

If it is a matter of land rights, treatment of human beings, famine etc I
can see these
have solutions that can and should be worked through. I would love to see
all people on
earth share the same privileges and have equal opportunity.

I notice that western nations generally tolerate almost all forms of
religious and cultural
beliefs whereas places such as Afghanistan provide the death sentence for
people "preaching"
another religion.

Can humans live together with understanding and tolerance ? Here in
Australia I work side by
side with jews, greeks, italians, asians, middle eastern etc etc and I have
not personally
witnessed any form of prejudice or intolerance to their beliefs.

I am not prepared to be assimilated by their culture and am certainly
prepared to fight
for what has so far been achieved in the development of the western world.

Though I am only 1 person and wonder how I can support the continuance of
the growth
and development of our culture, there are some things that I can do. One of
these is to
ensure I do not supply product to countries that are known to support
terrorist groups.

Best Regards

David Huisman


{Original Message removed}

2001\09\14@060918 by James Newton. Admin 3

face picon face
"Phil" is no longer a member of the PICList.

James Newton, PICList Admin #3
EraseMEjamesnewtonspamspamspamBeGonepiclist.com
1-619-652-0593 phone
http://www.piclist.com

{Original Message removed}

2001\09\14@063734 by Benjamin Bromilow

flavicon
face
From: James Newton. Admin 3 <RemoveMEjamesnewtonKILLspamspamPICLIST.COM>
To: <PICLISTSTOPspamspamspam_OUTMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 2:25 PM
Subject: Re: [OT]: TRAGEDY IN NEW YORK, EASILY PREVENTABLE

> And are we really so incompetent that we have to resort to mass violence
to
> solve our problems? If so, then I'm sure we will....


"Violence is the last resort of the ignorant":  Isaac Asimov.
Please note the implicit emphasis on the 1st, 4th, 5th and 8th words.
Think about it.

We need to think about why this has happened, remembering that the above
quotation can apply to both "sides" in this (though I hate that word).

I do, however, find the Afghan response of "we'll release him for trial if
you give us evidence" rather false. It's up to the courts to decide if there
is enough evidence. If there is no evidence then he'll get let off and come
back "home". We need to persuade the Afghans of this point. If they still
refuse to hand him over- and that's assuming we've decided that it is 'him',
then we need to decide whether we want to show the world our international
"ignorance". Violence is an acceptance of failure.

Violence is also a very very strong signal that someone believes
unbelievable change is necessary. Don't forget that they are prepared to
change the state of their existance (ie living to dead) to make this change.
We need to look at why they (and other people) feel this way. Do they have
realistic grievances? Marking them as "mad" does nothing to solve the
problem. For whatever reason, these people felt that it was worth
sacrificing their own lives and those of thousands of innocent people to
create change. Someone is marked as mad if we cannot UNDERSTAND why they
think the way that they think. However, if they looked back at us, how would
they see us.....

The images of Tuesday have left me with a furious anger inside and a
palpable physical sense of sickness but if we respond in a violent
irrational manner, then the hijakers have won. We need to use the
international horror at the above events to force a change in the world.

We need to remove hatred from the world, not more mothers, fathers,
daughters and sons. If we give in to hatred then we (ie the world
population) loose. Can anyone say that through the use of violence we can
irradicate evil without inducing hatred within others or within ourselves.

We need to concentrate on the horror of violence and the evil of hatred and
remove them from our world not increase them.

Pray for peace and understanding thoughout the world.
THEN GO OUT AND MAKE IT HAPPEN. LEAD BY EXAMPLE.

Ben

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