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'[OT]: September 11th'
2002\09\11@091238 by Russell McMahon

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I'm posting this to two mailing lists. In most other circumstance the
content would be deemed "political" and not suitable fare. A year ago, on
both lists, discussion on this subject was encouraged - I hope on the
anniversary that it is still acceptable. I seek to commiserate and encourage
and not to upset, although I know what I say may be received variably. If I
upset anyone please accept my apologies in advance. (Any really rude
comments probably best sent offlist :-(  ). Clearly I can't speak for all my
countrymen - where I say "we" I believe I speak for the majority.

In the USA about now people will be waking up to the morning of September
11th and the memories of the events of a year ago. Here in NZ we have the
privilege of being almost a whole day ahead - for us September 11 has just
ended. While we are a third of the world away and usually relatively
un-influenced by affairs in the US, those of you in the US may like to know
that today was a special day here as well. A lot more US flags than usual
flew here today, and all at half mast.
Across the country there were special services and gatherings - civilians,
police, firemen and even politicians.  Newspaper headlines and special
reports reminded us of the unforgettable and radio stations and TV covered
the events of a year ago.

While it is hard for us to identify with the losses you suffered we have
some links which make the TV's unbelievable images and year old memories
slightly more real. One of the active heroes on flight 93 was an ex-pat New
Zealander. On local radio a NZ woman who was working in the South tower at
the time told about how she survived, and there are others. As in all such
cases, words do a poor job of conveying our sympathies. While we are almost
half a world away we feel for you in your great loss.

The subsequent US response in Afghanistan, while inevitably less than
perfect, successfully targeted many of those responsible for the death of
the innocent victims in the US. (While it may not have been the primary aim,
it also gave a chance for the brutally oppressed majority in Afghanistan to
be more democratically involved in their own futures. How that will work out
is yet to be seen.)

The great danger in any such tragedy is that the avenger may over-react and
become the oppressor. The risk is greater if the enemy is hard to identify
and widespread. Justice is poorly served if, in redressing the wrong to the
innocent, an even greater number of other innocents suffer. I am sure that
we all hope that the US will grow in strength through these events and
become even more a bastion of freedom and justice.

Our small country has stood with your very much larger one on a number of
occasions in the past where freedom and justice for the innocent required
sacrifice and commitment. We appreciate much of what the US has done for the
world and what it represents. We all have the chance to speak out for
justice and freedom - both our own and that of others. In NZ and the US
these hard-won freedoms are freely available - for other peoples it is often
not so - for too many, deciding to speak against "authority" is liable to be
a fatal choice. I encourage you all to use your freedom to help ensure that
the US learns well from this great tragedy and truly stands for both justice
and freedom both for its own citizens and, where appropriate, for those of
other countries as well.




                            Russell McMahon

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2002\09\11@102101 by Jim

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How much network-TV coverage are you getting down there Russell?

I'm in tears right now, as the names of the fallen are being
read - the husbands and wives of those surviving are in attendance
and are placing wreaths in a circle into what used to be the
bedrock upon which the *World* Trade Center stood ...

RF 'sobbing' Jim

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2002\09\11@103123 by Jim

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part 1 147 bytes content-type:text/plain; (decoded 7bit)

Sorry for the attached graphic - but this is what hits
home for me (child crying over lost parent) ...

RF Jim


part 2 17472 bytes content-type:image/jpeg; (decode)


part 3 131 bytes
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2002\09\12@211418 by Clayton Mellina

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I can't speak for anyone else, but as a US citizen I thank you very much for
your concern.  It says that the whole world has been affected by this
tragedy and it help sooth the horrible pain all of us are feeling.  Thanks

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2002\09\16@032311 by James Newton, webhost

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60,000 people die on the freeways in the US every damn year. That is more US
citizens than died in the entire Viet Nam war.

I'm about sick of hearing about the 3,000 who died on 9/11

Is being hit head-on by a drunk driver any better than being killed by a
terrorist? What about the kids who get to watch their parents bleed to death
from the safety of the child seat in the back?

Pull your head out of the Television induced emotional trip and think about
the hard, cold, facts.

And if you only worry about money, how about the 60,000 cars? Not enough?
How about the earnings and taxes that those 60,000 people will not
contribute to our economy every year for the rest of their lives?

Why care about the WTC? Our friends, neighbors, and family have been dieing
on the roads every year right here in the good old USA.

Why aren't we hunting down Firestone and drunk drivers? How much do you want
our government to spend on keeping terrorists out? Want to guess what the
current federal funding for R&D on alternatives to the daily commute is? It
would save more lives to put the $$$ in to an infrastructure for
telecommuting.

In any case, if our government would take the supreme courts ruling to heart
and separate church from state, the ridicules bias we show for Israel might
come to an end and we could stop pissing off all the Arab states. That would
do more to keep out the terrorists than any amount of boarder checking...

Hell, we've been trying to stop the Mexicans from coming over for years and
we have NO success at that. Its a big country with a lot of borders and a
good mix of people from all over. That is part of our strength.

Level the playing field between Arab and Israeli peoples and get back to
working on our own problems. Stop crying over some pabulum from the media.
Use your head.

Ok... I got it all out... I feel better now. Guess I shouldn't send this
email to the entire list, but I think there are some good points in it.
Maybe it will do some good for people to read it. Buck up, be proud, correct
the problems, keep a level head and MOVE ON.


---
James Newton

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2002\09\16@050051 by electronic.services

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Here, here...

James Newton, webhost wrote:

{Quote hidden}

Nino.
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2002\09\16@050922 by Scott Stephens

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From: James Newton, webhost <jamesnewtonspamKILLspamPICLIST.COM>
Subject: Re: [OT]: September 11th


>60,000 people die on the freeways in the US every damn year. That is more
US
>citizens than died in the entire Viet Nam war.
>
>I'm about sick of hearing about the 3,000 who died on 9/11
>
>Is being hit head-on by a drunk driver any better than being killed by a
>terrorist? What about the kids who get to watch their parents bleed to
death
>from the safety of the child seat in the back?

That is a poor comparison. Cars are a necessary evil. I am sure one day
(should we survive, God willing) computers will control them, and our
grandchildren will see us as barbaric for controlling them and eating
animals with brains. Its fun being a barbarian 8^)
Lets enjoy it while we can.

But Al-Qaeda & Co. is a serious problem. The worst of which is the excuse it
gives the feds to oppress us with debt and oppressive laws. The Democrats
tax and spend. The Republicans borrow and spend. And they both are creating
and Orwellian police state, which will facilitate the taxation-to-tolerance
of the public, discrimination and a feudal class system.

It does get irritating to hear about multi-million dollar settlements for
those killed at the WTC, while those at African embassy and OKC don't get
near as much. A grunt soldier is worth what, $20K ? And the soldier chooses
to risk his life (by enlisting), not just happen to be at the wrong place at
the wrong time! And why shouldn't the government compensate victims of other
crimes? Because the aristocracy is powerfull and can get what it wants. The
strong tax as they will, the weak pay what we must!

And the feds bailing out sick, dying airlines, insurance companies, and
anyone else that can bribe their congress-hoar. That is a big problem with
our gummint. They exploit the public, extorting taxes for the benefit of an
influential aristocracy. In the most raw, cynical terms, they are profiteers
off human misery, like drug dealers. The feds run lotteries and divert
funds, they do the same with tobacco settlement cash - less than 10% goes to
Hollywood for silly anti-smoking adds that are really campaign contribution
kick-backs, none goes to those sick and dying of cancer and emphasema.
Likewise with alcohol. The feds use catastrophy as an excuse to grab our
money and freedom, and squander on a bureaucratic aristocracy that kicks
some back.

Recently I saw a 'thank-you America' commercial from NY. So my hatred for
our Ivy - League eastern elite aristocracy in NY and DC has been temporarily
damped, until the next outrage. At least they say they are greatful.

>Why aren't we hunting down Firestone and drunk drivers? How much do you
want
>our government to spend on keeping terrorists out?

The unstable middle east needs fixing. Attacking Iraq and turning into a
Japan-like Democracy in the middle east would be a good thing. A successful
democracy might shame and foment activism in Saudi Arabia and Egypt, where
the hijackers come from, and where the Islamist aristocracy bribes the
oppressed fundamentalists to direct their angst at the west. To hit
Al-Qada's wallet, you have to hit the Saudis.

We are hated for whatever we do. If we do business with Iraq, we are blamed
for subsidizing human rights offenses and oppression, prospering a Hitler
like dictator and enriching his armory. If we impose sanctions, we are
blamed for provoking Saddam to starve his people. So why don't we just get
blamed for kicking his ass and nation building, and fix them good, like we
did Japan?

The European inbred aristocracy should understand if the price of gas hits
$3/gallon, US SUV driving gun-toting red-neck crusader cowboys are going to
be holy-pissed, and the boleshevic soccer-moms will be voting for boleshevic
Democrats who promise them everything Marx, Lenin and Stalin promised his
usefull idiots. It is definitely not in Europes best interest to see fat,
dumb and happy American suffer a drastic, destabilizing change in standard
of living. The liberal media has selfishly, foolishly corrupted and dumbed
us down for decades. Who knows what horrors might occur? Do foolish
Europeans think weak, corrupt American politicians wont do what it takes to
maintain stability? They wont be crying for Europe! Telling us that BS about
America using more than its fair-share of resources! If it wasn't for
American technology, the world wouldn't have the technology and civil
infrastructure that requires all the energy we helped develop!

But an NBC assault on Israel might provoke a nuke retaliation on Bagdad. We
would be blamed, expected to pick up the bill, and universaly hated and
blamed for the carnage by trying to be the worlds cop. But if we are not the
worlds cop, and Saddam threatens Kuwait, Saudis, Israel and threatens to
nuke all who oppose him then what? We are blamed for being too wimpy to
violate the UN mandate and depose Saddam in Desert Storm.

This is why we need good people in government, people who are the best we
can get and can be trusted to do what is in the best interests of humanity,
not their popularity and poll ratings, not inbred 3rd generation Ivy -
League corrupt corporate hoars. Was Hitler right about the master race? Can
anyone tell me how many generations of Bushs, Gores, Kennedys, et. have
attended Ivy League schools, to become Americas ruling aristocracy? It must
be because they are the best and brightest, right? It can't be because Ivy
League schools are full of prejudiced, discriminating, oppressive corrupt
fascist snobs, can it?

Our media doesn't want us to have good government. They want us to have
sick, corrupt government. How is it the media crucifies Trafficant for
shaking down a few hundred grand in chump change, while the Democrats and
Republicans get millions for writing a damn book or giving a speech
(Hillary, Daschle, Gingrich, et.), get million dollar revolving-door jobs in
industry, get 100's of millions for 'campaign contribution' bribes which are
kicked back to the FCC regulated media for adds, et. Because Trafficant was
an individual that challenged the FBI and IRS. Can you say selective
prosecution? The Democrats and Republicans are mobs that twist the letter of
the law for the spirit of greed.

I hope Rumsfeld can save our ass. I hope God (not Mammon!) will hear some of
their prayers.

>In any case, if our government would take the supreme courts ruling to
heart
>and separate church from state, the ridicules bias we show for Israel might
>come to an end and we could stop pissing off all the Arab states. That
would
>do more to keep out the terrorists than any amount of boarder checking...

Do you understand the Islamist fundamentalist mindset? Fundamentalists
believe they are the unique choosen people of God, whom they have a monopoly
on. They must operate from a premise of devine revelation that inculcates
self-deception, excuse generation. For heathen to prosper is like a gold
ring in a pig's snout, it is an insult to God. Their governments oppress
them, but they are moraly obligated to hate the heathen more than their
aristocracy, and the clergy is bribed to help them. Kind of like Patricia
Ireland and NOW. Clinton can rape and abuse all the women he wants, but the
boleshevic religion of liberals and feminists will always demand they hate
the mote in the eyes of conservatives more than the beam in their own. BTW
has any 'journalist' ever asked Hillary Clinton if she asked Bill Clinton if
and how many women he was alleged to have raped (Broadrick, et.)? Anyways,
totalitarian systems and sick fundamentalism has a bit in common - they rely
on brainwashed self deception and a devil to react against. Islamists have
their devil to rally their troops to Jihad - US. And our government has its
devil to rally its sheeple in to its pens.

See you in the gulag.

Scott

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2002\09\16@065151 by Morgan Olsson

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Good points James.

Also what bothers me a little is why our western media, alse here in Europe, keep rambleing about 11/9, Israel, and balkan.  While there are often Big ugly wars and problems in Africa for example which we normally don´t hear about in normal "news" channels.

And the environmental bomb is ticking, plenty issues there.  Power supply through oil, uranium, coal is soon (100/200yrs) emptied.  IT toys get much attention but simple things like heat pumps that really can save people money and environment som epeople know almost nothing about.

And the west, especially US, consumes plenty of oil, for which we support some "terrorist" states with an ugly lot of money...

But of course it is much more easy to isolate a small happening where we can feel sorry for ourselves so we do not need to think big.  -Like if it has never been possible to fly an airplane into anything, whatever it is,  before, anytime??

Terrorism is easy to make.  Only protection is to not make enemies, but that i feel US is getting real good at... :/  (UN issues, Environmental, Trade, ...)

/Morgan

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2002\09\16@080825 by Mike Singer

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James Newton, webhost wrote:

> 60,000 people die on the freeways in the US every damn year.
> That is more US citizens than died in the entire Viet Nam war.
>
> I'm about sick of hearing about the 3,000 who died on 9/11
>
> Is being hit head-on by a drunk driver any better than being
> killed by a terrorist?

A sort of provocation to force List members express their
attitude, in my opinion. I'm sure you don't think so.
Well, let's go.
All the mess is not about 3,000 (or >6000, as I was told) who
died on 9/11. The point is that US government can not guarantee
global security to  US citizens any more. To minimize the
danger of "being hit head-on by a drunk driver"  one could
choose an appropriate style of life, road, auto, speed etc.
To minimize the danger of global terror one could do nothing.
Do you hear our Ukrainian communists screaming of 200
nuclear war-heads were lost when USSR crashed?
Are not them enough to surpass all the numbers of road
deaths for all years of the US and Europe history?

Mike.

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2002\09\16@082016 by Dale Botkin

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While the discussion might be interesting, there are several far more
apropriate forums than the PICList in which to discuss it.  Please don't
contribute to the noise level by continuing this.  Everyone's got opinions
on the subject.

Thanks.

Dale
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2002\09\16@102232 by Jim

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Significantly OT .. plse read and adhere to the rules
regarding appropriate topics ...

RF Jim


----- Original Message -----
From: "James Newton, webhost" <.....jamesnewtonKILLspamspam.....PICLIST.COM>
To: <EraseMEPICLISTspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Monday, September 16, 2002 2:21 AM
Subject: Re: [OT]: September 11th


> source= http://www.piclist.com/postbot.asp?id=piclist\2002\09\11\103123a
>
> 60,000 people die on the freeways in the US every damn year. That is more
US
> citizens than died in the entire Viet Nam war.
>
> I'm about sick of [ ... ]

<snip>

>
>
> ---
> James Newton
>

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2002\09\16@102441 by Jim

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 "And the environmental bomb is ticking,"

Overblown and without solid proof (actually, this
is more indicative of how successful the fear-monger
have been at getting THEIR message of fear our out
rather than those who have actual factual data).

RF Jim

----- Original Message -----
From: "Morgan Olsson" <morgans.rtspamspam_OUTTELIA.COM>
To: <@spam@PICLISTKILLspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Monday, September 16, 2002 6:49 AM
Subject: Re: [OT]: September 11th


<snip>

And the environmental bomb is ticking, plenty issues there.

/Morgan

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2002\09\16@113332 by Russell McMahon

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> Significantly OT .. plse read and adhere to the rules
> regarding appropriate topics ...

James WROTE the rules. Occasionally, for his hard work and forbearance on
behalf of us all he gets to break them too. I'm sure he'll remove himself
from the list for a day or two as compensation if he feels he's doing it too
often :-)



       Russell McMahon

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2002\09\16@115119 by Jim

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Did you *not* see the irony in my post ("Knock knock -
hello McFly!" (from the movie "Back to the Future"))?

BTW, writing the rules, of course, in no way entitles one
to 'break them' (unless one happens to also be king) ...

RF Jim

{Original Message removed}

2002\09\17@005744 by Leandro

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Hi James Newton

What a words, finally someone that speak with their mind, and
not with the propaganda & media brainwashing stuff.

you say it all.

I think that all that kind of problems will stop when we & they
put appart ANY religious believes, from BOTH sides.

Don't destroy the world trying to impose a religious believe
as the only right one; If any, the time & science will tell us
the truth.

Leo

At 04:21 16/09/02, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2002\09\17@010422 by Russell McMahon

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> BTW, writing the rules, of course, in no way entitles one
> to 'break them' (unless one happens to also be king) ...

QED :-)

       RM

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