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'[OT]: SMD plug (was Universal programmer )'
2001\05\29@140036 by James Paul

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All,

Working with SMD devices really isn't all that difficult.  And I
would urge anyone who isn't working with SMD now to at least give
it a try.   The parts are about the same or less cost than the thru
hole counterparts, SMD can really save space, even the PCB layout is
generally simpler (at least in my experience) because there are fewer
thru holes and vias to be concerned with.  All in all, SMD has a lot
to offer the hobbiest.  After all, commercial interests wouldn't use
it if it wasn't less expensive or offer something that the older
technologies didn't offer.

And yes, I know the commercial interests have all the equipment to
make SMD work as easy as pie, but that doesn't mean that a hobbiest
can't take advantage of the technology just because he (she) hasn't
got the specialized equipment to do it on a full scale.

All I'm saying is I believe you are causing unecessary work for
yourself sometimes if you don't use SMD technology.  To be fair
though, if you don't mind working with thru hole stuff, and you
always have enough room to put your parts on a board even though the
size of the board has to be withing such and such limits, by all
means use thru hole.   But if you're like me, and have to put 5
gallons of parts on a 4 gallon board, give SMD a try.

If you do, I'll bet you'll wonder why you didn't try it before.

Just my 2 cents worth.   I'm done now.


                                             Regards,

                                               Jim










On Tue, 29 May 2001, wouter van ooijen & floortje hanneman wrote:

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2001\05\29@144151 by Alan Beeber

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James Paul wrote:
>
>  But if you're like me, and have to put 5
>  gallons of parts on a 4 gallon board, give SMD a try.
>
>  If you do, I'll bet you'll wonder why you didn't try it before.
>
>  Just my 2 cents worth.   I'm done now.
>
>                                               Regards,
>
>                                                 Jim


Any suggestions on how or where to start? Resource
materials?

Alan Beeber

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2001\05\29@150010 by David VanHorn

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>
>Any suggestions on how or where to start? Resource
>materials?

Digi-Key.

I use 1206 parts, because they fit nicely on the bottom of the board,
betwwn pins of 300 mil DIP ICs.

Route with 8 mil track and space.

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2001\05\29@151139 by Mark Newland

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There is good and bad to SMD.  Everything you stated below is true and I also
urge others to do at least SOME smd.  For one main reason, some parts you can
only get in SMD.

On the other hand, when doing a prototype (and I do alot of them as part of my
job), we usually will do the first one useing though hole parts.  We don't even
try to put 5 gallons of parts on a 4 gallon board.  We have no problem useing a
15 gallon board if needed. The use of sockets for the IC's is also nice so we
can replace that IC we keep blowing up 28 times while testing.  After the design
has been tested, THEN we put it all onto the 1/2 gallon board.

James Paul wrote:

{Quote hidden}

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2001\05\29@164541 by James Paul

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Yes,

SMD components can be had from many jobbers.  I usually use Digi-Key
because they are inexpensive, fast, and usually have all catalog
items in stock.

Regarding PCB materials, again several places come to mind.  There
was a thread a few days ago that discussed several PCB houses that
cater to the prototype/pre-production arena.  These boards are good,
relatively quick turn around, and relatively inexpensive.  Another
route is to make your own.  You can get an inexpensive PCB kit at
Radio Shack for about 15.00 USD IIRC.

Try some layouts, buy a few parts, and have at it.  You might try
to make a simple project to begin with.  Say a 3 or 4 LED flasher.
This allows you to surface moune resistors, LED's, and a PIC, all
on the same board.  This will give you experience, and you'll wind
up with something that is useful for bragging rights.   After this,
go on to more sophisticated projects.  Before long, you'll be an
expert.  Believe me, it doesn't take very long to become proficient
at it.

Hope to hear from you in the near future stating that you've built
something using SMD.  If you really want to make it small,  SMD is
the way to go.


                                         Regards,

                                           Jim


On Tue, 29 May 2001, Alan Beeber wrote:

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2001\05\29@165322 by David VanHorn

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Here's a hobby project:

http://www.dvanhorn.org/HH3/

HH3RC2.ZIP is the schematics and PCB layout, all in PDF form.

It's mixed SMD/Thruhole, which has worked well for me over the last 10
years or so.
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2001\05\29@165532 by Dal Wheeler

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Along these lines, has anyone here messed with Flipchip type mounting (die
solder bumps)?  Is it even possible at the hand-build level?  Convection
oven trick?

{Original Message removed}

2001\05\29@170210 by James Paul

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Mark,

I understand what you say, and I don't have any arguments with it.
It makes a lot of sense, and I've been there..done that too.

but.....
I too build many prototypes,  and test fixtures and setups, but I
build mine the way the finished product is going to be built.  This
is done for two reasons.   One, this way, we can test the system and
be reasonably sure that the production systems will act the same as
the prototype functionally and electrically.   Second, this way, we
have the board layout done and can perfect it at the same time.

Now, before I get a thousand people asking "How can you be sure
which variable is causing a problem, (if indeed there is one),
and/or which one should you (or do you need to) tweak to fix or
improve it?"

It's not that difficult really.  Because most of the new systems
that I prototype are really variations on older systems that have
been proven already.   And these systems have been characterized to
the point, that we know just about what will happen in any
contingency.    SO, using this information, and with the deductive
reasoning available here, we can pretty much tell which is which.
Granted, this isn't always the case, but 99 time out of a hundred,
this is the case.

Anyway, just to let you know, I usually build mine SMD right out of
the gate for the reasons just stated.  It saves me a step in the
long run.   Of course, if you're designing systems that are totally
and completely new, then your route would probably be the best way
to go.

                                           Regards,

                                             Jim



On Tue, 29 May 2001, Mark Newland wrote:

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2001\05\29@170410 by James Paul

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It may be possible, but even I don't have that much patience.


                                    Regards,

                                      Jim








On Tue, 29 May 2001, Dal Wheeler wrote:

>
> Along these lines, has anyone here messed with Flipchip type mounting (die
> solder bumps)?  Is it even possible at the hand-build level?  Convection
> oven trick?
>
> {Original Message removed}

2001\05\29@171638 by David VanHorn

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At 02:50 PM 5/29/01 -0600, Dal Wheeler wrote:
>Along these lines, has anyone here messed with Flipchip type mounting (die
>solder bumps)?  Is it even possible at the hand-build level?  Convection
>oven trick?

Possible yes, but not friendly for debugging.
You need the pads all tinned, but not plated and airknifed.
Once you remove a part, you'll have difficulty putting another on.

I'd stay away from that except where it can't be avoided.

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2001\05\29@172305 by Mark Newland

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James Paul wrote:

>   It's not that difficult really.  Because most of the new systems
>  that I prototype are really variations on older systems that have
>  been proven already.

Done it this way many times.

> Anyway, just to let you know, I usually build mine SMD right out of
>  the gate for the reasons just stated.  It saves me a step in the
>  long run.   Of course, if you're designing systems that are totally
>  and completely new, then your route would probably be the best way
>  to go.

This is usually the case

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2001\05\29@172454 by Mark Newland

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Flipchip?  You talking Ball Grid Array (BGA's)

Dal Wheeler wrote:

> Along these lines, has anyone here messed with Flipchip type mounting (die
> solder bumps)?  Is it even possible at the hand-build level?  Convection
> oven trick?
>
> {Original Message removed}

2001\05\29@183804 by Dal Wheeler

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A little different than BGA I think -- http://www.flipchip.com
They refer to it as wafer bumping.  I'm surprised to hear some positives on
hand building experience though.  Thats pretty wild.

> Flipchip?  You talking Ball Grid Array (BGA's)
>
> Dal Wheeler wrote:
>
> > Along these lines, has anyone here messed with Flipchip type mounting
(die
> > solder bumps)?  Is it even possible at the hand-build level?  Convection
> > oven trick?

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2001\05\29@205923 by Ron Wilder

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part 0 44 bytes
his is a multi-part message in MIME format.
part 1 1115 bytes content-type:text/plain; charset=us-ascii (decoded 7bit)

I've soldered a few of the Dallas iButtons DS2401X1 (CSP: chip scale package)
parts to circuit boards and I have to tell you...this job is best left to
machines.  The parts are smaller than 0402 resistors! When prototyping, it's
much easier to use larger packages such as an 8-pin TSOC or the TO-92
equivalents.
Check out the photo. (if the list server will allow it to be attached.)
Ron

Dal Wheeler wrote:

{Quote hidden}


part 2 1997 bytes content-type:image/jpeg; (decode)


part 3 131 bytes
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2001\05\29@215316 by Alexandre Domingos F. Souza

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>Check out the photo. (if the list server will allow it to be attached.)

       Lend me a microscope?

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2001\05\31@131213 by Peter L. Peres

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> Along these lines, has anyone here messed with Flipchip type mounting
> (die solder bumps)?  Is it even possible at the hand-build level?
> Convection oven trick?

Yes, I. No, hot air tool with wide head. Temperature profile and flux qty.
are critical.

Peter

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