Post by thread:[OT]: SMD plug (was Universal programmer )

All, Working with SMD devices really isn't all that difficult. And I would urge anyone who isn't working with SMD now to at least give it a try. The parts are about the same or less cost than the thru hole counterparts, SMD can really save space, even the PCB layout is generally simpler (at least in my experience) because there are fewer thru holes and vias to be concerned with. All in all, SMD has a lot to offer the hobbiest. After all, commercial interests wouldn't use it if it wasn't less expensive or offer something that the older technologies didn't offer. And yes, I know the commercial interests have all the equipment to make SMD work as easy as pie, but that doesn't mean that a hobbiest can't take advantage of the technology just because he (she) hasn't got the specialized equipment to do it on a full scale. All I'm saying is I believe you are causing unecessary work for yourself sometimes if you don't use SMD technology. To be fair though, if you don't mind working with thru hole stuff, and you always have enough room to put your parts on a board even though the size of the board has to be withing such and such limits, by all means use thru hole. But if you're like me, and have to put 5 gallons of parts on a 4 gallon board, give SMD a try. If you do, I'll bet you'll wonder why you didn't try it before. Just my 2 cents worth. I'm done now. Regards, Jim On Tue, 29 May 2001, wouter van ooijen & floortje hanneman wrote: {Quote hidden}> > > You haven't ever heard of OTP and SMD Pics? Lucky I have. ;-) > > Yes, but I am a hobbyist with typical hybbist level tools (mainly > protoboards), so I use no SMD. For the JW's ICSP has no advantage (for me) > and I don't do large series, so for the occasional OTP I use the PicStart. > > Wouter > > -- > http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different > ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details. spam_OUTjimTakeThisOuTjpes.com -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.

James Paul wrote: > > But if you're like me, and have to put 5 > gallons of parts on a 4 gallon board, give SMD a try. > > If you do, I'll bet you'll wonder why you didn't try it before. > > Just my 2 cents worth. I'm done now. > > Regards, > > Jim Any suggestions on how or where to start? Resource materials? Alan Beeber -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.

> >Any suggestions on how or where to start? Resource >materials? Digi-Key. I use 1206 parts, because they fit nicely on the bottom of the board, betwwn pins of 300 mil DIP ICs. Route with 8 mil track and space. -- Dave's Engineering Page: http://www.dvanhorn.org I would have a link to FINDU here in my signature line, but due to the inability of sysadmins at TELOCITY to differentiate a signature line from the text of an email, I am forbidden to have it. -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.

There is good and bad to SMD. Everything you stated below is true and I also urge others to do at least SOME smd. For one main reason, some parts you can only get in SMD. On the other hand, when doing a prototype (and I do alot of them as part of my job), we usually will do the first one useing though hole parts. We don't even try to put 5 gallons of parts on a 4 gallon board. We have no problem useing a 15 gallon board if needed. The use of sockets for the IC's is also nice so we can replace that IC we keep blowing up 28 times while testing. After the design has been tested, THEN we put it all onto the 1/2 gallon board. James Paul wrote: {Quote hidden}> All, > > Working with SMD devices really isn't all that difficult. And I > would urge anyone who isn't working with SMD now to at least give > it a try. The parts are about the same or less cost than the thru > hole counterparts, SMD can really save space, even the PCB layout is > generally simpler (at least in my experience) because there are fewer > thru holes and vias to be concerned with. All in all, SMD has a lot > to offer the hobbiest. After all, commercial interests wouldn't use > it if it wasn't less expensive or offer something that the older > technologies didn't offer. > > And yes, I know the commercial interests have all the equipment to > make SMD work as easy as pie, but that doesn't mean that a hobbiest > can't take advantage of the technology just because he (she) hasn't > got the specialized equipment to do it on a full scale. > > All I'm saying is I believe you are causing unecessary work for > yourself sometimes if you don't use SMD technology. To be fair > though, if you don't mind working with thru hole stuff, and you > always have enough room to put your parts on a board even though the > size of the board has to be withing such and such limits, by all > means use thru hole. But if you're like me, and have to put 5 > gallons of parts on a 4 gallon board, give SMD a try. > > If you do, I'll bet you'll wonder why you didn't try it before. > > Just my 2 cents worth. I'm done now. > > Regards, > > Jim > > On Tue, 29 May 2001, wouter van ooijen & floortje hanneman wrote: > > > > > > You haven't ever heard of OTP and SMD Pics? Lucky I have. ;-) > > > > Yes, but I am a hobbyist with typical hybbist level tools (mainly > > protoboards), so I use no SMD. For the JW's ICSP has no advantage (for me) > > and I don't do large series, so for the occasional OTP I use the PicStart. > > > > Wouter > > > > -- > > http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different > > ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details. > > .....jimKILLspam@spam@jpes.com > > -- > http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different > ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details. -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.

Yes, SMD components can be had from many jobbers. I usually use Digi-Key because they are inexpensive, fast, and usually have all catalog items in stock. Regarding PCB materials, again several places come to mind. There was a thread a few days ago that discussed several PCB houses that cater to the prototype/pre-production arena. These boards are good, relatively quick turn around, and relatively inexpensive. Another route is to make your own. You can get an inexpensive PCB kit at Radio Shack for about 15.00 USD IIRC. Try some layouts, buy a few parts, and have at it. You might try to make a simple project to begin with. Say a 3 or 4 LED flasher. This allows you to surface moune resistors, LED's, and a PIC, all on the same board. This will give you experience, and you'll wind up with something that is useful for bragging rights. After this, go on to more sophisticated projects. Before long, you'll be an expert. Believe me, it doesn't take very long to become proficient at it. Hope to hear from you in the near future stating that you've built something using SMD. If you really want to make it small, SMD is the way to go. Regards, Jim On Tue, 29 May 2001, Alan Beeber wrote: {Quote hidden}> > James Paul wrote: > > > > But if you're like me, and have to put 5 > > gallons of parts on a 4 gallon board, give SMD a try. > > > > If you do, I'll bet you'll wonder why you didn't try it before. > > > > Just my 2 cents worth. I'm done now. > > > > Regards, > > > > Jim > > > Any suggestions on how or where to start? Resource > materials? > > Alan Beeber > > -- > http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different > ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details. jimKILLspamjpes.com -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.

Here's a hobby project: http://www.dvanhorn.org/HH3/ HH3RC2.ZIP is the schematics and PCB layout, all in PDF form. It's mixed SMD/Thruhole, which has worked well for me over the last 10 years or so. -- Dave's Engineering Page: http://www.dvanhorn.org I would have a link to FINDU here in my signature line, but due to the inability of sysadmins at TELOCITY to differentiate a signature line from the text of an email, I am forbidden to have it. -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.

Along these lines, has anyone here messed with Flipchip type mounting (die solder bumps)? Is it even possible at the hand-build level? Convection oven trick? {Original Message removed}

Mark, I understand what you say, and I don't have any arguments with it. It makes a lot of sense, and I've been there..done that too. but..... I too build many prototypes, and test fixtures and setups, but I build mine the way the finished product is going to be built. This is done for two reasons. One, this way, we can test the system and be reasonably sure that the production systems will act the same as the prototype functionally and electrically. Second, this way, we have the board layout done and can perfect it at the same time. Now, before I get a thousand people asking "How can you be sure which variable is causing a problem, (if indeed there is one), and/or which one should you (or do you need to) tweak to fix or improve it?" It's not that difficult really. Because most of the new systems that I prototype are really variations on older systems that have been proven already. And these systems have been characterized to the point, that we know just about what will happen in any contingency. SO, using this information, and with the deductive reasoning available here, we can pretty much tell which is which. Granted, this isn't always the case, but 99 time out of a hundred, this is the case. Anyway, just to let you know, I usually build mine SMD right out of the gate for the reasons just stated. It saves me a step in the long run. Of course, if you're designing systems that are totally and completely new, then your route would probably be the best way to go. Regards, Jim On Tue, 29 May 2001, Mark Newland wrote: {Quote hidden}> > There is good and bad to SMD. Everything you stated below is true and I also > urge others to do at least SOME smd. For one main reason, some parts you can > only get in SMD. > > On the other hand, when doing a prototype (and I do alot of them as part of my > job), we usually will do the first one useing though hole parts. We don't even > try to put 5 gallons of parts on a 4 gallon board. We have no problem useing a > 15 gallon board if needed. The use of sockets for the IC's is also nice so we > can replace that IC we keep blowing up 28 times while testing. After the design > has been tested, THEN we put it all onto the 1/2 gallon board. > > James Paul wrote: > > > All, > > > > Working with SMD devices really isn't all that difficult. And I > > would urge anyone who isn't working with SMD now to at least give > > it a try. The parts are about the same or less cost than the thru > > hole counterparts, SMD can really save space, even the PCB layout is > > generally simpler (at least in my experience) because there are fewer > > thru holes and vias to be concerned with. All in all, SMD has a lot > > to offer the hobbiest. After all, commercial interests wouldn't use > > it if it wasn't less expensive or offer something that the older > > technologies didn't offer. > > > > And yes, I know the commercial interests have all the equipment to > > make SMD work as easy as pie, but that doesn't mean that a hobbiest > > can't take advantage of the technology just because he (she) hasn't > > got the specialized equipment to do it on a full scale. > > > > All I'm saying is I believe you are causing unecessary work for > > yourself sometimes if you don't use SMD technology. To be fair > > though, if you don't mind working with thru hole stuff, and you > > always have enough room to put your parts on a board even though the > > size of the board has to be withing such and such limits, by all > > means use thru hole. But if you're like me, and have to put 5 > > gallons of parts on a 4 gallon board, give SMD a try. > > > > If you do, I'll bet you'll wonder why you didn't try it before. > > > > Just my 2 cents worth. I'm done now. > > > > Regards, > > > > Jim > > > > On Tue, 29 May 2001, wouter van ooijen & floortje hanneman wrote: > > > > > > > > > You haven't ever heard of OTP and SMD Pics? Lucky I have. ;-) > > > > > > Yes, but I am a hobbyist with typical hybbist level tools (mainly > > > protoboards), so I use no SMD. For the JW's ICSP has no advantage (for me) > > > and I don't do large series, so for the occasional OTP I use the PicStart. > > > > > > Wouter > > > > > > -- > > > http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different > > > ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details. > > > > .....jimKILLspam.....jpes.com > > > > -- > > http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different > > ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details. > > -- > http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different > ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details. EraseMEjimspam_OUTTakeThisOuTjpes.com -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.

It may be possible, but even I don't have that much patience. Regards, Jim On Tue, 29 May 2001, Dal Wheeler wrote: > > Along these lines, has anyone here messed with Flipchip type mounting (die > solder bumps)? Is it even possible at the hand-build level? Convection > oven trick? > > {Original Message removed}

At 02:50 PM 5/29/01 -0600, Dal Wheeler wrote: >Along these lines, has anyone here messed with Flipchip type mounting (die >solder bumps)? Is it even possible at the hand-build level? Convection >oven trick? Possible yes, but not friendly for debugging. You need the pads all tinned, but not plated and airknifed. Once you remove a part, you'll have difficulty putting another on. I'd stay away from that except where it can't be avoided. -- Dave's Engineering Page: http://www.dvanhorn.org I would have a link to FINDU here in my signature line, but due to the inability of sysadmins at TELOCITY to differentiate a signature line from the text of an email, I am forbidden to have it. -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.

James Paul wrote: > It's not that difficult really. Because most of the new systems > that I prototype are really variations on older systems that have > been proven already. Done it this way many times. > Anyway, just to let you know, I usually build mine SMD right out of > the gate for the reasons just stated. It saves me a step in the > long run. Of course, if you're designing systems that are totally > and completely new, then your route would probably be the best way > to go. This is usually the case -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.

Flipchip? You talking Ball Grid Array (BGA's) Dal Wheeler wrote: > Along these lines, has anyone here messed with Flipchip type mounting (die > solder bumps)? Is it even possible at the hand-build level? Convection > oven trick? > > {Original Message removed}

A little different than BGA I think -- http://www.flipchip.com They refer to it as wafer bumping. I'm surprised to hear some positives on hand building experience though. Thats pretty wild. > Flipchip? You talking Ball Grid Array (BGA's) > > Dal Wheeler wrote: > > > Along these lines, has anyone here messed with Flipchip type mounting (die > > solder bumps)? Is it even possible at the hand-build level? Convection > > oven trick? -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.

part 0 44 bytes his is a multi-part message in MIME format. part 1 1115 bytes content-type:text/plain; charset=us-ascii (decoded 7bit) I've soldered a few of the Dallas iButtons DS2401X1 (CSP: chip scale package) parts to circuit boards and I have to tell you...this job is best left to machines. The parts are smaller than 0402 resistors! When prototyping, it's much easier to use larger packages such as an 8-pin TSOC or the TO-92 equivalents. Check out the photo. (if the list server will allow it to be attached.) Ron Dal Wheeler wrote: {Quote hidden}> A little different than BGA I think -- http://www.flipchip.com > They refer to it as wafer bumping. I'm surprised to hear some positives on > hand building experience though. Thats pretty wild. > > > Flipchip? You talking Ball Grid Array (BGA's) > > > > Dal Wheeler wrote: > > > > > Along these lines, has anyone here messed with Flipchip type mounting > (die > > > solder bumps)? Is it even possible at the hand-build level? Convection > > > oven trick? > > -- > http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different > ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details. part 2 1997 bytes content-type:image/jpeg; (decode) part 3 131 bytes -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.

>Check out the photo. (if the list server will allow it to be attached.) Lend me a microscope? -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.

> Along these lines, has anyone here messed with Flipchip type mounting > (die solder bumps)? Is it even possible at the hand-build level? > Convection oven trick? Yes, I. No, hot air tool with wide head. Temperature profile and flux qty. are critical. Peter -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList piclist-unsubscribe-requestspam_OUTmitvma.mit.edu