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'[OT]: Retirement home for monkeys'
2002\10\11@003127 by Scott Stephens

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God bless America, because we are so kind to the animals we exploit. If only
our corporations were so kind to their employees, and our government were so
kind to the victims of agent orange and the gulf war syndrome. But if the
victims were paid, there wouldn't be enough for the lawyers hired to fight
them in court.

Scott

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NEWS FROM THE LIBERTARIAN PARTY
2600 Virginia Avenue, NW, Suite 100
Washington DC 20037
World Wide Web: http://www.LP.org
===============================
For release: October 10, 2002
===============================
For additional information:
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Phone: (202) 333-0008 Ext. 222
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Why is federal health agency funding
a "Club Med" for monkeys? Libertarians ask

WASHINGTON, DC -- A plan by the National Institutes of Health to spend
$24 million on a retirement facility for chimpanzees shows why America
needs a separation of science and state, Libertarians say.

"This Club Med for monkeys illustrates how easy it is for government
bureaucrats to go bananas with other people's money," said Libertarian
Party Communications Director George Getz. "Amazingly, these chimps
will get better treatment in their golden years than the chump
taxpayer."

In an effort to house 800 chimpanzees that have been "retired" after
being used in medical experiments, the National Institutes of Health
has created Chimp Haven, an animal sanctuary in Louisiana. The total
cost to taxpayers: $24 million over 10 years, or $30,000 per
chimpanzee.

Organizers say the 200-acre, forested facility   complete with fences
and moats that encircle grassy areas   is designed to provide a
"stimulating and responsive environment essential for chimpanzee
development and rehabilitation."

But Libertarians say the plan proves that even relatively non-
controversial programs such as medical research need to be taken out of
the hands of government.

"Who would have imagined that an agency created to find cures for
cancer, AIDS and other debilitating diseases would end up building a
$24 million monkey house?" Getz asked. "Any private research
organization that pulled a stunt like this could be punished
immediately by donors. But it's a lot harder to withhold funding for a
government program, because the 'donors' are taxpayers who don't have a
choice."

The solution is to separate science and state, and let individual
Americans decide which projects are worthy of funding, Libertarians
say.

"With private donors in charge, perhaps the monkeys used in
experiments would be given to a zoo, purchased by a private animal
sanctuary or even adopted by an animal-rights organization," Getz
said. "And if donors wanted to build a Taj Mahal for monkeys, they
could do it with their money, not yours."

Unfortunately, the government's urge to monkey around with tax money
isn't limited to  studying primates, Libertarians point out.  For
example, over the past two years the federal government has spent:

*  $750,000 for grasshopper research in Alaska.

*  $2 million to house a worm collection at the Smithsonian museum in
Washington, DC.

*  $400,000 to study manure management at the National Swine Research
Center in Iowa.

*  $4.2 million for a shrimp aquiculture research project in six
states.

*  $400,000 for the Montana Sheep Institute.

It's time to put an end to such baboondoggles, once and for all, Getz
said.

As for the monkey retirement center: "Let's retire the politicians who
signed off on the NIH's $27 billion budget. Lock them away in Chimp
Haven, where they'll be unable to continue their gorilla war against
the taxpayer."



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2002\10\11@085106 by Jim

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 "If only our corporations were so kind ..."

Fortunately Scott, you (if you reside here) are *free* to start
your own - if you were so inclined ...

RF Jim


{Original Message removed}

2002\10\11@104937 by Ed Edmondson

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Well, all I can say is that a million lawyers at the bottom of the ocean is
but a good start.

Ed

Dr. Ed Edmondson, P.hD.,
1410 West 11th Street
Apt. 6
Alamosa, Colorado 81101-3375
Phone: 719-587-0130
Fax: 719-589-4970
E-mail: .....ee0035jrKILLspamspam@spam@aol.com

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2002\10\11@154652 by Mike Singer

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Scott Stephens wrote:
{Quote hidden}

Can anybody tell me what is the price of common to
all mankind spiritual values?
What material damage would society suffer off the
economy on propaganda of the spiritual values?
Giving chimpanzees due for their part in contribution
to science teaches people  to return good for good.
What is the price of human lives, saved due to results
of medical experiments on chimpanzees? Much more
then $24 million.

Mike.

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2002\10\11@160724 by Bob Blick

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> NEWS FROM THE LIBERTARIAN PARTY

Gee, I didn't think they believed in anything new :)

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2002\10\11@163715 by Dale Botkin

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On Fri, 11 Oct 2002, Mike Singer wrote:

>  Giving chimpanzees due for their part in contribution
> to science teaches people  to return good for good.

So ship the little beggars off somewhere they can live in peace and
happiness.  I suggest South America or Borneo or somewhere else chimps are
native.  If that's too tough on them, the country is full of zoos.

>  What is the price of human lives, saved due to results of medical
> experiments on chimpanzees? Much more then $24 million.

And how many more human lives could be better off (or saved) with that $24
million, properly used?

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2002\10\11@185754 by David Minkler

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Dale Botkin wrote:
>
> On Fri, 11 Oct 2002, Mike Singer wrote:
> >  What is the price of human lives, saved due to results of medical
> > experiments on chimpanzees? Much more then $24 million.
>
> And how many more human lives could be better off (or saved) with that $24
> million, properly used?
>

At a minimum, 24 (he did say properly used, we could always waste the
money).  At a maximum ... who knows?  It costs (farm price) $22 to feed
a human for a year.  Used to combat the most common cause of death in
children and infants (dehydration from diarrhea), even less.

Best regards,

Dave

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2002\10\11@191243 by Bob Blick

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> > And how many more human lives could be better off (or saved) with that $24
> > million, properly used?

It's not like the chimpanzees are being given any money. There are a lot
of people receiving benefit from the money. Think of it as another type of
zoo or museum, receiving public funds. There are people getting jobs out
of this.

Libertarians (the original poster was quoting a Libertarian propaganda
feed) only care about reducing government to the point where everyone is
living in an unsafe world without healthcare, but "no taxes".  And better
keep your gun loaded, and close at hand.

-Bob

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2002\10\11@195720 by Dale Botkin

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On Fri, 11 Oct 2002, Bob Blick wrote:

> Libertarians (the original poster was quoting a Libertarian propaganda
> feed) only care about reducing government to the point where everyone is
> living in an unsafe world without healthcare, but "no taxes".  And better
> keep your gun loaded, and close at hand.

Three outta four in some parts -- all but the "no taxes" thing.  They're
gaining ground without even getting elected.

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2002\10\11@200135 by Scott Stephens

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From: Mike Singer <mikespamKILLspamPOLUOSTROV.NET>
Subject: Re: [OT]: Retirement home for monkeys


> Can anybody tell me what is the price of common to
>all mankind spiritual values?

Spirtual values - love (motive to live and be aware), and objective truth
and justice are the organizing principles of intelligent life, so obviously
they can't be assigned a price. That is like asking how much would you sell
the rope you would be hung with, or how much you would sell all of your
blood for. Sane people will only sell their souls for causes which they
love, causes that their identity is bound up in, and in doing so they
identify with a much greater, transcendent life and life force. 'He is no
fool, he that purchases that which cannot be bought with that which he
cannot keep'! Fools sell their souls for transient pleasure and diversions,
which they find are shallow, shallow as the identities and character they
grow into.

> What material damage would society suffer off the
>economy on propaganda of the spiritual values?

When humans are sick and dying, building a Taj Mahal for apes is evil.
Government and academia is sick and inbred in that they believe their own
lies, they see a cloistered, myopic, self created and self-decieving
reality. They have lost touch with reality. Or perhaps the bureaucracy is so
corrupt and inefficient that they all know what they are doing is damn
ridiculous, but they are unable to help themselves, being too mechanical and
too cynical. They are money and power addicts in need of a 12 - step
program.

> What is the price of human lives, saved due to results
>of medical experiments on chimpanzees? Much more
>then $24 million.

The idea behind sacrificing animals to science is for the greater good of
man. The money is better spent fixing the problems the animals are
sacrificed for. Can't you see that? The money should be spent to fix the
reason that is causing us to sacrifice them. This wisdom must be too high
for some!

Scott

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2002\10\11@201608 by Scott Stephens

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From: Bob Blick <.....bblickKILLspamspam.....SONIC.NET>
Subject: Re: [OT]: Retirement home for monkeys


>> > And how many more human lives could be better off (or saved) with that
$24
>> > million, properly used?
>
>It's not like the chimpanzees are being given any money. There are a lot
>of people receiving benefit from the money. Think of it as another type of
>zoo or museum, receiving public funds. There are people getting jobs out
>of this.

Someone once defended Motorola getting a big tax write-off for their failed
cellular plant here in Libertyville (Ha! what a name for a village in the
Peoples Republic of Illinois!). Yes, Motorola can gamble a billion dollars,
and we tax payers eat the loss for the rich and influencial Galvin family,
and all their brown-nosed sycophants and bribed politicians! Keep people
employed at Motorola making phones nobody will buy, or in this case, keeping
alive maimed medical experiment survivors.

My point is why not just take our tax money and build a pyramid. Some
spectacular work of art, to impress future generations. Surely our tax
revenue could be better spent on other public projects? But then again, with
people sick and dying, shouldn't that money be better spent elsewhere? And
who will choose how and where to spend OUR money? Politicians that are
bribed by greedy corporations, or blackmailed by those bribing them as our
great senator Toricelli was? Isn't this the point of a 'free' market?

Lets keep our own money and spend it the where our heart is! America's
founders were afraid our republic would come to this - a true democracy
where two wolves and a sheep vote on who will be eaten for lunch, where the
mob decides who will be victimized for the 'greater good'!

>Libertarians (the original poster was quoting a Libertarian propaganda
>feed) only care about reducing government to the point where everyone is
>living in an unsafe world without healthcare, but "no taxes".  And better
>keep your gun loaded, and close at hand.

If the government was over 70% Libertarian, I would become a Democrat to
maintain a sane balance. For instance, here in Illinois you are required to
have car insurance, or enough money in a bank account to pay for damage you
may do with your vehicle. There is no reason why social security couldn't
work the same way, with you choosing what (FDIC insured) account YOU invest
YOUR money in. Instead, we get the government spending social security
funds, putting IOU's in the trust fund, doing what they would allow no
corporation to do. The governments accounting is not merely attrocious, it
is treason. Just plain treason!

I like Libertarians because there is no alternative, there really is no
alternative anyways. Democrats and Republicans are two sides of the same
corrupt coin. The green party wants to take money from the
military-industrial complex, double it and waste it in the academia-lawyer
complex. I don't look at absolute ideals, but the direction things are
headed. Can you understand that from control system theory? It is better not
to vote than psychologicaly reinforce the behavior of a Republican or
Democrat that plays a game of "heads I win, tails you lose" with our wallet.
Punish Democrats by voting for a greeny, or punishing Republicans by voting
for a Libertarian.

We're probably better off just running off, getting drunk and burying our
collective heads in the sand of some beach till the system punishes itself
and learns common sense. There is no learning common sense without
accoutability. The government holds corporate accountants responsible. Who
holds our government accountable? Not corporate journalists, the media
whores!

Scott

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2002\10\11@223505 by Russell McMahon

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> > Libertarians (the original poster was quoting a Libertarian propaganda
> > feed) only care about reducing government to the point where everyone is
> > living in an unsafe world without healthcare, but "no taxes".  And
better
> > keep your gun loaded, and close at hand.

I recall a definition I saw somewhere long ago -

"A Libertarian is a person who desires a strong Police force to protect them
from their slaves."

IMO, Libertarians views are often reasonable enough if each person could
live and act without influencing or being influenced by all others. As soon
as one interacts with other people liberty and rights needs be tempered by
the  liberty and rights of others and their system crumbles.

cf Donne's obvious but salutary "No man is an island complete unto
himself".If we could find a suitable island to send all the Libertarians to
maybe they would be happy ? :-)




           RM

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2002\10\11@225621 by Matt Pobursky

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Please folks... if you're going to slag Libertarians (the Libertarian
party and their beliefs as they exist in the United States) -- at least
be informed. So far everything that's been put forward here about
Libertarians is pretty far from reality.

http://www.lp.org/issues/

"Libertarians believe the answer to America's political problems is the
same commitment to freedom that earned America its greatness: a free-
market economy and the abundance and prosperity it brings; a dedication
to civil liberties and personal freedom that marks this country above
all others; and a foreign policy of non-intervention, peace, and free
trade as prescribed by America's founders."

(Source: The Libertarian Party: A Short History, 2000)

Matt Pobursky
Maximum Performance Systems

On Sat, 12 Oct 2002 16:28:59 +1300, Russell McMahon wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2002\10\11@232604 by Scott Stephens

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From: Russell McMahon <EraseMEapptechspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTPARADISE.NET.NZ>
Subject: Re: [OT]: Retirement home for monkeys


>I recall a definition I saw somewhere long ago -
>
>"A Libertarian is a person who desires a strong Police force to protect
them
>from their slaves."

An ideal Libertarian culture would stop slave traffic. Libertarians do not
initiate
violence, slavery is enforced by perpetual initiation of violence.

>IMO, Libertarians views are often reasonable enough if each person could
>live and act without influencing or being influenced by all others. As soon
>as one interacts with other people liberty and rights needs be tempered by
>the  liberty and rights of others and their system crumbles.

I have the same problem with Libertarianism. From a distance you don't
notice such subtlties, it appears to be consistant. But when you examine
individual relationships, it gets blurry.

Since socialist America with its command economy is so far from Libertarian
principles, the political model is most sensible, especialy in light of
alternatives.

>If we could find a suitable island to send all the Libertarians to
>maybe they would be happy ? :-)

I think it use to be called "America".

Scott

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2002\10\12@010601 by Mike Singer

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Matt Pobursky wrote:
> http://www.lp.org/issues/
> "Libertarians believe the answer to America's political problems is
the
> same commitment to freedom that earned America its greatness: a free-
> market economy and the abundance and prosperity it brings; a
dedication
> to civil liberties and personal freedom that marks this country above
> all others; ...

"uber alles" in other words.

Mike.

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2002\10\12@083547 by Roman Black

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Bob Blick wrote:
>
> Libertarians (the original poster was quoting a Libertarian propaganda
> feed)


Isn't it funny how a political party you DON'T
agree with has "propaganda"?? Do you refer to your
own political party's information as "propaganda"??
<grin>
-Roman

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2002\10\12@084426 by Dale Botkin

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On Sat, 12 Oct 2002, Roman Black wrote:

> Do you refer to your own political party's information as
> "propaganda"??

Absolutely.  That's what it is.

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2002\10\13@014336 by Peter L. Peres

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On Sat, 12 Oct 2002, Roman Black wrote:

*>Bob Blick wrote:
*>>
*>> Libertarians (the original poster was quoting a Libertarian propaganda
*>> feed)
*>
*>Isn't it funny how a political party you DON'T
*>agree with has "propaganda"?? Do you refer to your
*>own political party's information as "propaganda"??

No, disinformation. <nogrin>

Peter

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