Searching \ for '[OT]: Re: UL 1998 requirements (moved from [PIC])' in subject line. ()
Make payments with PayPal - it's fast, free and secure! Help us get a faster server
FAQ page: www.piclist.com/techref/microchip/devices.htm?key=pic
Search entire site for: 'Re: UL 1998 requirements (moved from [PIC])'.

Exact match. Not showing close matches.
PICList Thread
'[OT]: Re: UL 1998 requirements (moved from [PIC])'
2002\03\06@193248 by Andrew Warren

flavicon
face
Micro Eng <spam_OUTPICLISTTakeThisOuTspammitvma.mit.edu> wrote:

> isnt UL....just a testing lab, that ensures something is not going
> to burn if if an idiot uses it?  I don't think its a actual
> requirement to sell something.

   Many customers (and most large resellers of consumer products,
   like Walmart and Home Depot in the USA) won't buy a product
   if it's not UL approved, so it often IS an actual requirement.

   Unfortunately, the various UL requirements often overlap, and
   meeting any one of them allows you to label your product "UL
   Approved".  There are any number of products in the marketplace
   which have never been tested by UL, but which carry a prominent
   "UL Approved" label only because the third-party wall transformer
   included with the product is UL approved for basic fire safety.
   If you're buying a product for which UL approval is important, be
   sure to check WHICH standard(s) it meets.

   -Andy

=== Andrew Warren -- .....aiwKILLspamspam@spam@cypress.com
=== Principal Design Engineer
=== Cypress Semiconductor Corporation

--
http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us!
email listservspamKILLspammitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body


2002\03\07@103043 by Micro Eng

picon face
so...is it a way to get around the UL approved if you use a walwart that has
been approved?  UL only is worried about the AC side of things and not what
is the DC?

Then thier is FCC approval...does it apply to consumer things that are not
computers yet have a micro in them?  I heard once that anything under 1MHz
does not need the Class B approval

{Quote hidden}

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList
spamBeGonepiclist-unsubscribe-requestspamBeGonespammitvma.mit.edu


2002\03\07@160633 by Harold M Hallikainen

picon face
On Thu, 7 Mar 2002 08:29:53 -0700 Micro Eng <TakeThisOuTmicro_engEraseMEspamspam_OUTHOTMAIL.COM>
writes:
> so...is it a way to get around the UL approved if you use a walwart
> that has
> been approved?  UL only is worried about the AC side of things and
> not what
> is the DC?

       Powering it with a wall wart makes it easier to get through safety
listings. We're currently using ETL to test to UL standards. Our products
are ETL listed.

>
> Then thier is FCC approval...does it apply to consumer things that
> are not
> computers yet have a micro in them?  I heard once that anything
> under 1MHz
> does not need the Class B approval
>

       There are a few exemptions.  See
http://www.hallikainen.org/cgi-bin/section.pl?section=15.103 . Possibly
the exemption that is easiest to get is for low frequency battery
operated equipment:

   (h) Digital devices in which both the highest frequency generated
and the highest frequency used are less than 1.705 MHz and which do not
operate from the AC power lines or contain
provisions for operation while connected to the AC power lines. Digital
devices that include, or make provision for the use of, battery
eliminators, AC adaptors or battery chargers which permit operation
while charging or that connect to the AC power lines indirectly,
obtaining their power through another device which is connected to the
AC power lines, do not fall under this exemption.


Harold

FCC Rules Online at http://hallikainen.com/FccRules
Lighting control for theatre and television at http://www.dovesystems.com


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
dl.http://www.juno.com/get/web/.

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList
RemoveMEpiclist-unsubscribe-requestspamTakeThisOuTmitvma.mit.edu


2002\03\07@163204 by Chris Loiacono

flavicon
face
Generally, UL standards will state that a device on a non-primary circuit of
less than 42.4V with a current capability of under 8A is basically a
non-problem. Rememberthat UL came about as a means to minimize the risk of
fires by applying standardized safety specs. Hence, we have standard control
voltages that are well below 42.4V today. Wall warts may be ugly, but they
can save many hassles and much expense in the listing or approval process.
The reason for their existance may be another cause-effect thing created by
UL.

Chris

{Quote hidden}

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList
EraseMEpiclist-unsubscribe-requestspammitvma.mit.edu


2002\03\07@163613 by Chris Loiacono

flavicon
face
We're currently using ETL to test to UL standards.
> Our products
> are ETL listed.

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList
RemoveMEpiclist-unsubscribe-requestEraseMEspamEraseMEmitvma.mit.edu


2002\03\07@165945 by Chris Loiacono

flavicon
face
Ah, ETL, a real trap....
About a year ago ETL was all over the news (or vice-versa) because their
widespred corruption was exposed in several high-profile cases. They
typically charge fees that are about 1/2 of what UL testing costs, but many
of their labs were found to be nowhere near the US standards for "NRTL's"
They also could not produce a document trail that showed that many of their
tests were ever performed at all. Repeat customers were found to  have been
given much less stringent testing at lower cost. I investigated a
competitor's ETL listings also, and found them allowing the makers to
display their marking on horrfyingly dangerous equipment that had never been
tested- because a product name was used that was similar to an altogether
different listed product. If not for the politics of the day, they would
have lost their US national recognition last year. Oddly enough, ETL was
owned by an overseas company, and it's primary market was US.

IMHO, they are a really sloppy conglomeration of budget test houses, and
theyhave shown me that are overly laxed when it comes to testing products
that impact their bottom line.
There may be some ETL facilities that are more professional, so I can't
apply this to every location.

I have also tested them by sending several identical requests for quotes,
and received completely different responses regarding cost and the list of
required tests.

It seemed to me at the time that they must have all the people who were ever
discharged by UL for incompetence working for them.

This is a real concern, because US law is such now that no primary powered
equipment can be sold in the US unless it is either listed or approved by a
Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratory. I believe ANSI sets up the
standards for the Lab Certs.
If the law were inforced, we'd lose many, many products instantly. If the
Labs were made to maintain real qualifications, we'd lose 1/2 of the
capacity to test these products.


We're currently using ETL to test to UL standards.
> Our products
> are ETL listed.

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList
RemoveMEpiclist-unsubscribe-requestspam_OUTspamKILLspammitvma.mit.edu


2002\03\07@180044 by Bob Blick

face picon face
On Thu, 7 Mar 2002, Harold M Hallikainen wrote:
>         There are a few exemptions.  See
> http://www.hallikainen.org/cgi-bin/section.pl?section=15.103 . Possibly
> the exemption that is easiest to get is for low frequency battery
> operated equipment:
>
>     (h) Digital devices in which both the highest frequency generated
> and the highest frequency used are less than 1.705 MHz and which do not
> operate from the AC power lines or contain

It's funny, I think there must be some more exemptions, because I look at
these toys, made in great volumes, none of which have any FCC approval. Is
Hasbro thumbing their nose at the FCC with this BIO-BUG toy, which has a
cpu running off a 4MHZ crystal? Perhaps they made a special payment to
Colin Powell's son and don't need FCC approval, or are there other sets of
exemptions?

Best regards,

Bob

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList
RemoveMEpiclist-unsubscribe-requestTakeThisOuTspamspammitvma.mit.edu


2002\03\07@194109 by Harold M Hallikainen

picon face
       Because of this, I use wall warts a lot. But, lots of customers don't
like them. It SEEMS that a wall wart manufacturer should make a "panel
mount wall wart." It would be just like a regular wall wart (unregulated
DC output), but instead of having a plug to fit the outlet in a
particular country, it would have an IEC connector and a couple mounting
screws so we could mount it behind the panel of our equipment. It'd have
three output wires (DC+, DC-, and protective earth). We could just stick
this in our equipment and sail through safety testing...

Harold


On Thu, 7 Mar 2002 16:32:06 -0500 Chris Loiacono <EraseMEchrisspamspamspamBeGoneMAIL2ASI.COM>
writes:
{Quote hidden}

FCC Rules Online at http://hallikainen.com/FccRules
Lighting control for theatre and television at http://www.dovesystems.com


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
dl.http://www.juno.com/get/web/.

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList
RemoveMEpiclist-unsubscribe-requestKILLspamspammitvma.mit.edu


2002\03\07@194119 by Harold M Hallikainen

picon face
    I don't want to get into too much ETL bashing here, but I am also
encouraging our company to go elsewhere. They tested one of our products
to the wrong safety standard. They then tested another to the wrong EMI
standard (for Europe). They're supposed to be the standards experts (so I
don't have to try to figure this all out).
       I've learned a LOT by reading news:sci.engr.compliance , but I'd sure
like the lab to know more than I do! Getting
an accurate report out of them was also a challenge.
       I visited the lab for our EMI tests and think their facilities and
staff were good at completing a specified test. The problem was WHICH
test. I don't have all the EMI standards memorized, but I think they
tested some of our stuff to CISPR22 (or maybe 20, it's for ITE) while it
should have been done to CISPR15 (luminaires and associated equipment).
Turns out the lab we were using didn't have the equipment for CISPR15.


Harold


On Thu, 7 Mar 2002 16:58:49 -0500 Chris Loiacono <chrisSTOPspamspamspam_OUTMAIL2ASI.COM>
writes:
{Quote hidden}

FCC Rules Online at http://hallikainen.com/FccRules
Lighting control for theatre and television at http://www.dovesystems.com


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
dl.http://www.juno.com/get/web/.

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList
KILLspampiclist-unsubscribe-requestspamBeGonespammitvma.mit.edu


2002\03\07@201246 by Chris Loiacono

flavicon
face
Uh huh...
I had more than a strong feeling that I wasn't alone with the bad
experiences.
....'nuff said in the complaint dept., though...
I think the best thing to do today is to find the most appropriate ISO/ANSI
harmonized standard and pay the lab of your choice to certify your
compliance.
Next, tell the huge corporate customer that you think UL, ETL, et al is a
big joke, and that you have actually designed and produced your product in
compliance with a real standard that is not based on graft. It takes guts,
but I was able to pull this one off a couple of times in recent years. If
they really are up front as a customer, they may check with their corporate
attorney, who will tell them that what you offered is at least as good as
UL/ETL in the case of an accident or injury related lawsuit.
back in the days when I couldn't afford to think about paying a lab, I still
was able to make a living by buying a copy of each appropriate standard,
then documenting every last detail of my designs with references to the
related paragraph headings in the standard.

I have made my share of mistakes, but in 20 years of doing this in an
industry that combines paper, lots of electricity, heat and flammable
chemicals, I have had one close call that consisted of a little smoke(15+yrs
ago), no fires, no related injuries, and have never been hauled into a
single lawsuit.

btw, they tell me that are quite a number of NRTL's out there aside from UL
& ETL....

...and thanks for sharing the enlightening link.

Chris

{Quote hidden}

http://www.dovesystems.com


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
dl.http://www.juno.com/get/web/.

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList
spamBeGonepiclist-unsubscribe-requestspamKILLspammitvma.mit.edu

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList
.....piclist-unsubscribe-requestspam_OUTspammitvma.mit.edu


2002\03\08@034728 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
>        Because of this, I use wall warts a lot. But, lots of customers
>don't like them. It SEEMS that a wall wart manufacturer should make a
>"panel mount wall wart." It would be just like a regular wall wart
>(unregulated DC output), but instead of having a plug to fit the outlet
>in a particular country, it would have an IEC connector and a couple
>mounting screws so we could mount it behind the panel of our equipment.
>It'd have three output wires (DC+, DC-, and protective earth). We could
>just stick this in our equipment and sail through safety testing...
>
>Harold

Aren't many modular SMPSUs shipped like that ? Things like PC PSUs and
such ? They have a UL listing and a mains power female connector (and
sometimes a builtin power switch). You have to mount them inside (or bolt
on) your equipment and voila. Or almost ?

Peter

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic:
[PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads


2002\03\08@115344 by Harold M Hallikainen

picon face
On Fri, 8 Mar 2002 10:37:00 +0200 "Peter L. Peres" <TakeThisOuTplp.....spamTakeThisOuTACTCOM.CO.IL>
writes:
>
> Aren't many modular SMPSUs shipped like that ? Things like PC PSUs
> and
> such ? They have a UL listing and a mains power female connector
> (and
> sometimes a builtin power switch). You have to mount them inside (or
> bolt
> on) your equipment and voila. Or almost ?
>
> Peter


       I think they are, but switchers are quite a bit more money. We're
getting a 12V 500mA wall wart for about $3. Switchers seems to start in
the $10 to $20 area...

Harold


FCC Rules Online at http://hallikainen.com/FccRules
Lighting control for theatre and television at http://www.dovesystems.com


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
dl.http://www.juno.com/get/web/.

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic:
[PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads


2002\03\08@123027 by Chris Loiacono

flavicon
face
I know the folks that were the first to commercialize hugh VGA/LED
billboard signs. Their biggest design headache was power. The best choice to
get them to market in needed timeframe was to buy skids full of PC PS's for
each sign. Again, already listed, ready to go...

{Quote hidden}

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic:
[PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads


More... (looser matching)
- Last day of these posts
- In 2002 , 2003 only
- Today
- New search...