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'[OT]: Other Microcontrollers'
2002\07\21@104837 by Shawn Mulligan

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I'm interested in knowing what microcontrollers group members use when they
are not using PICs -- specifically in low-power or high-temperature (>=150C)
applications. I've used the MSP430 for low-power applications up to 125C and
the PIC 16F877 for higher-temperature circuits. And in reference to
high-temperature design, what part of the design fails first at the
temperature rises -- I have observed the oscillator and external serial
flash to be the first to go. Thanks.

-Shawn


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2002\07\21@122307 by Tal Dayan

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Just curious, what kind of applications are you developing ?

Oil drilling probes ?

Or just parking meters for Arizona. ;-)

Tal

> {Original Message removed}

2002\07\21@130411 by Spehro Pefhany

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At 09:21 AM 7/21/02 -0700, you wrote:
>Just curious, what kind of applications are you developing ?
>
>Oil drilling probes ?

Honeywell has some 8051s that are spec'd to operate over 200'C.
Especially for down-hole telemetry stuff.
A bit pricey ($1K or so, IIRC), and the specs suffer. I try to
keep the temperature low by any means available, but in a hole in
the ground it is not possible. Other micros? 8051s, 68HC05/8 and
MSP430F. Over 125'C you are getting into specialist territory.
It might even make sense to qualify them yourself if the app is
non-critical.

>Or just parking meters for Arizona. ;-)

Haha. ;-) The ones in Toronto have a solar panel and cellular phone
antenna on them (there are only a couple per block and you print out
a ticket* to place on the dash). They take credit and debit cards, and
so far, seem very reliable compared to the electronic individual meters.
I guess they "phone home" when they are full of money, as well as to
validate credit cards and call for help if they are being attacked(?).

* The tickets have advertising (eg. city-wide pizza places) printed on
the back, so I suspect they actually make money on the paper they use.

Best regards,

Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..."            "The Journey is the reward"
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2002\07\21@144741 by M. Adam Davis

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I wonder how they'll ever remake cool hand luke if these go up everywhere?

-Adam

Spehro Pefhany wrote:

{Quote hidden}

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2002\07\21@184533 by Shawn Mulligan

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Tal wrote:

>Just curious, what kind of applications are you developing ?
>
>Oil drilling probes ?
>
>Or just parking meters for Arizona. ;-)
>
You're right, most of our work involves down-hole drilling applications. I
know that Honeywell/Motorola offer high-temp microcontrollers, but they are
extremely pricey. I have done lots of heat testing with TI and Microchip
parts and I was interested in hearing if anyone else had done testing with
low-cost MPUs. I've also done some playing with Atmel flash and it's gone to
about 125-130C.

-Shawn

P.S.: It's pretty hot in Calgary this summer, but not quite Arizona.

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2002\07\21@223317 by Bill & Pookie

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The automotive industry must use high heat chips.

Bill

----- Original Message -----
From: "Shawn Mulligan" <mulliganshawnspamKILLspamHOTMAIL.COM>
To: <.....PICLISTKILLspamspam.....MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2002 3:43 PM
Subject: Re: [OT]: Other Microcontrollers


> Tal wrote:
>
> >Just curious, what kind of applications are you
developing ?
> >
> >Oil drilling probes ?
> >
> >Or just parking meters for Arizona. ;-)
> >
> You're right, most of our work involves
down-hole drilling applications. I
> know that Honeywell/Motorola offer high-temp
microcontrollers, but they are
> extremely pricey. I have done lots of heat
testing with TI and Microchip
> parts and I was interested in hearing if anyone
else had done testing with
> low-cost MPUs. I've also done some playing with
Atmel flash and it's gone to
> about 125-130C.
>
> -Shawn
>
> P.S.: It's pretty hot in Calgary this summer,
but not quite Arizona.
>
>
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2002\07\21@225434 by Spehro Pefhany

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At 07:37 PM 7/21/02 -0700, you wrote:
>The automotive industry must use high heat chips.

Typically spec'd over the -40 to 125'C temperature range.

Best regards,

Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..."            "The Journey is the reward"
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2002\07\21@231350 by Jim

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  " The automotive industry must use high heat chips."

Bill, the CPU module in my '86 Chevrolet Caprice enjoyed
a nice comfortable ride inside the passenger compartment!

It was behind the right side kick panel ...

I popped it open - don't remember now what the CPU chip was
but the "big boy" on board was in a 40 pin package (ceramic
or plastic I can't recall).


RF Jim


----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill & Pookie" <williamcornutt111spamspam_OUTATTBI.COM>
To: <@spam@PICLISTKILLspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2002 9:37 PM
Subject: Re: [OT]: Other Microcontrollers


> The automotive industry must use high heat chips.
>
> Bill
>

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2002\07\21@231801 by Archmage

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Could you use active cooling and a insolated box to protect the chips ???


----- Original Message -----
From: "Spehro Pefhany" <KILLspamspeffKILLspamspamINTERLOG.COM>
To: <RemoveMEPICLISTTakeThisOuTspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2002 11:09 PM
Subject: Re: [OT]: Other Microcontrollers


> At 07:37 PM 7/21/02 -0700, you wrote:
> >The automotive industry must use high heat chips.
>
> Typically spec'd over the -40 to 125'C temperature range.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..."            "The Journey is the
reward"
> spamBeGonespeffspamBeGonespaminterlog.com             Info for manufacturers:
http://www.trexon.com
> Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:
http://www.speff.com
> 9/11 United we Stand
>
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2002\07\22@093721 by M. Adam Davis

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Modern active cooling is a simple heat pump - take heat from A, move it
to B.

I imagine that taking the heat from the hole and moving to the top of
the hole, while possible, is likely not practical, and sending the stuff
down in an ice pack (or liquid N) probably increases the weight for only
a little benefit (ie, it's going to be in the hole long enough to boil
off several gallons of liquid N if you want to gather any meaningful data)

There is a right way, and an ugly kludge.  It's very likely that the
right way is sending down equipment that can handle the stresses placed
on it, rather than making the environment fit the equipment (at which
point you probably lose much of the value of the data gathered down
there anyway)

-Adam

Archmage wrote:

>Could you use active cooling and a insolated box to protect the chips ???
>
>
>{Original Message removed}

2002\07\22@103202 by Dave Tweed

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"M. Adam Davis" <TakeThisOuTadampicEraseMEspamspam_OUTUBASICS.COM> wrote:
> Modern active cooling is a simple heat pump - take heat from A, move it
> to B.
>
> I imagine that taking the heat from the hole and moving to the top of
> the hole, while possible, is likely not practical, ...

Why not? All you need is a Peltier Junction array (or a stack of them)
that is capable of keeping a tiny insulated box containing the active
chips below their maximum rated temperature, while outputting the heat
into the drilling slurry stream at something higher than *its*
temperature. No moving parts; should work indefinitely as long as
there's sufficient electricity to run it.

> There is a right way, and an ugly kludge.  It's very likely that the
> right way is sending down equipment that can handle the stresses placed
> on it, rather than making the environment fit the equipment (at which
> point you probably lose much of the value of the data gathered down
> there anyway)

Good attitude, but you need to take a top-down view. If you can create
an enclosure that can withstand the enviroment while providing a more
component-friendly environment inside, then you don't need to qualify
every chip, wire and solder joint inside the box for the harsher
environment.

-- Dave Tweed

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2002\07\22@104221 by M. Adam Davis

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I can see that.  The components wouldn't generate much heat (if designed
carefully they would emit very little heat).

Put them inside an insulated container with a stack of peltiers...

Then you'd only have to find out the differential each peltier could
handle, it's current consumption at that differential, and the total
difference between the two temperatures.

Getting the heat transferred off the last peltier would be the trick -
is a heat sink going to manage it, or is it going to get fouled?

-Adam

Dave Tweed wrote:

{Quote hidden}

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2002\07\22@114733 by Herbert Graf

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>    " The automotive industry must use high heat chips."
>
> Bill, the CPU module in my '86 Chevrolet Caprice enjoyed
> a nice comfortable ride inside the passenger compartment!
>
> It was behind the right side kick panel ...
>
> I popped it open - don't remember now what the CPU chip was
> but the "big boy" on board was in a 40 pin package (ceramic
> or plastic I can't recall).

       In most GMs (don't know other companies) the ECM (or "computer") is located
exactly where you describe, on the firewall just above the passengers feet.
It is usually based on a Motorolla MCU, 6800 series IIRC. Later models use
Intel, I think. TTYL

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2002\07\22@123531 by mike

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Remember that peltiers are not very efficient and will generate a lot
of heat themselves. This is why when you stack them you need
progressively more elements per layer.

Also for hi-temp apps, remember that standard peltiers use low
melting-point solders in their construction, which will limit their
operating range. Wouldn't surprise me if they wouldn't stand much more
temp than most ICs.
On Mon, 22 Jul 2002 10:41:43 -0400, you wrote:

{Quote hidden}

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2002\07\22@125406 by Peter L. Peres

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Since flash is not so heat resistant why not use OTP or better CERDIP
EPROM based PICs with no onboard A/D or other analog devices and with
external clock from a heat-rated can oscillator (or diy). Once upon a time
I made some tests and I came to the conclusion that one can make parts
work a little beyond the rated temperature by tampering with the supply
voltage. The main effects of temperature are to shift the leakage and
thresholds (increases with CMOS) and decrease the gain. Thus higher
voltage and shifted IO logic levels should work for CMOS, with a derated
(?) clock. My experiments were with NMOS parts where things behave
differently. I suspect that a CERDIP 16C54A/XT (I still have those) could
be run at 150deg C with 500kHz clock at 5.5V or so. The chips may have to
be reprogrammed every half a year or so since the EPROM is also erased
faster when hot.

Peter

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2002\07\22@140105 by shawnmulligan

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I appreciate your advice. The flash in this instance is used for external
data logging so OTP wouldn't be helpful. The heat-rated can oscillator
approach is something I will experiment with, as well as varying supply
voltage and clock frequency. Firstly, I will experiment with voltage levels,
going from 3.3V parts to 5.0V. Thank you again.

Further, some people have suggested elaborate cooling stategies; however,
unfortunately in the down-hole drilling business everything is powered by
lithium batteries and power consumption is a real limiting concern.

-Shawn
{Original Message removed}

2002\07\22@140325 by shawnmulligan

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You really are limited in many ways. You have to accept the stresses of the
environment -- pressure, temperature, vibration, space limitations, power
sources, etc.

-Shawn

{Quote hidden}

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2002\07\22@145321 by Peter L. Peres

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On Mon, 22 Jul 2002, shawnmulligan wrote:

>I appreciate your advice. The flash in this instance is used for external
>data logging so OTP wouldn't be helpful. The heat-rated can oscillator
>approach is something I will experiment with, as well as varying supply
>voltage and clock frequency. Firstly, I will experiment with voltage levels,
>going from 3.3V parts to 5.0V. Thank you again.

I think that those fram parts (ferro-electric ram) are rated for high
temperature. If I understand well the fram cell will stay the way it was
programmed until the Curie temperature is reached. This may be high enough
for you to try it out even if it is out of spec.

Peter

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2002\07\22@164650 by shawnmulligan

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Peter,
I'm new to the engineering world so your direction is particularily helpful.
I'll admit, I wasn't familiar with FRAM but have downloaded some technical
information from Ramtron and will review it tonight after work. Thanks
again.

-Shawn
{Original Message removed}

2002\07\22@193111 by Michael Rigby-Jones

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> -----Original Message-----
> From: M. Adam Davis [SMTP:EraseMEadampicspamUBASICS.COM]
> Sent: Monday, July 22, 2002 3:42 PM
> To:   RemoveMEPICLISTEraseMEspamEraseMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Subject:      Re: [OT]: Other Microcontrollers
>
> I can see that.  The components wouldn't generate much heat (if designed
> carefully they would emit very little heat).
>
>
Think about what would control the TEC's.  They need amps of current to pump
heat if working near their maximum delta T.  A linear system will give off
considerable heat, a switching system is likely to give noise problems.

It's possible you could get away without any form of temperature control,
just apply enough voltage accross the TEC's for the worst case, but you
would have to be very carefull that the cold sides didn't get cold enough to
damage the circuit when the unit is operating at temperatures condierably
lower than it's maximum.

TEC's are interesting and occaisionaly usefull engineering solutions, but
their disadvantages can often outweigh any benefits.

Regards

Mike

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2002\07\23@071903 by Michael Rigby-Jones

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> -----Original Message-----
> From: M. Adam Davis [SMTP:RemoveMEadampicspam_OUTspamKILLspamUBASICS.COM]
> Sent: Monday, July 22, 2002 3:42 PM
> To:   RemoveMEPICLISTTakeThisOuTspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Subject:      Re: [OT]: Other Microcontrollers
>
> I can see that.  The components wouldn't generate much heat (if designed
> carefully they would emit very little heat).
>
>
Think about what would control the TEC's.  They need amps of current to pump
heat if working near their maximum delta T.  A linear system will give off
considerable heat, a switching system is likely to give noise problems.

It's possible you could get away without any form of temperature control,
just apply enough voltage accross the TEC's for the worst case, but you
would have to be very carefull that the cold sides didn't get cold enough to
damage the circuit when the unit is operating at temperatures condierably
lower than it's maximum.

TEC's are interesting and occaisionaly usefull engineering solutions, but
their disadvantages can often outweigh any benefits.

Regards

Mike

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