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'[OT]: Old Chips'
2002\02\27@234401 by Chris Eddy

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Three items for the thread;

I am looking at some Motorola parts that are in my collection.. no idea
what they are, MC791P and MC799P. Date codes of 1970 and 1971
respectively.

I am redesigning cards for one customer that are all populated using
Motorola MHTL logic, which is Motorola High Threshold DTL logic. The
date codes on the parts on the boards in front of me are 1978, but I am
sure that these are the legacy order parts, and the product itself was
designed when the family was new in early seventies. Thousands of these
cards are in service today waiting patiently to be replaced.

I dismantled a Honeywell DDP8 mainframe used in a large building HVAC
control system. Installed in 1969, we removed it in about 1992. It had
paper tape for loading the program. When we killed the power, I opened
up the CPU enclosure. I saw the core memory right away, but much to my
stunned amazement, the hundreds of little 4x4 plug in cards were
populated with 3 to 6 logic parts each that were in a gold plated SMT
package. Refer back to the install date. SMT in 1969. I can only make
one conjecture; they were getting their investment back from military
technology.

I have parts marked with RCA, Signetics, Sprague, GE, and other long
forgotten trade marks. Only another engineer could coo over such mundane
collectibles.

Chris~

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2002\02\28@005122 by Jinx

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Intel 4004 16-pin DIL, gold/ceramic, old, old, possibly memory

Raytheon RC3302, 74 03 - no idea what they are

MC4006, 74 10, still in its SIlicon Valley bag (SV begat VSI
begat Avnet). I'll get around to using it one day

Whole pile of boards from '70 with only germanium transistors
and diodes, no ICs at all

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2002\02\28@011906 by David Koski

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On Thu, 28 Feb 2002 18:05:11 +1300
Jinx <spam_OUTjoecolquittTakeThisOuTspamCLEAR.NET.NZ> wrote:

> Intel 4004 16-pin DIL, gold/ceramic, old, old, possibly memory

4004 was first of a series of microprocessors: 4004, 8008, 8080, 8086, etc.

http://www.intel.com/intel/intelis/museum/exhibit/hist_micro/hof/4004.htm

David Koski
.....davidKILLspamspam@spam@KosmosIsland.com

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2002\02\28@014946 by Reginald Neale

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>
>I have parts marked with RCA, Signetics, Sprague, GE, and other long
>forgotten trade marks. Only another engineer could coo over such mundane
>collectibles.


Chips? I know there are other old-timers on this list, and we didn't
need no steenkin chips. Why we walked barefoot to tech school in the
snow, it was uphill both ways, etc etc.

I was fourteen when the transistor was invented. For the first few
years it was a laboratory curiosity. We designed instrumentation with
vacuum tubes. Then we got our hands on the first commercially
available transistors. My junkbox still has some CK722's and 2N107s.
Only last year I retired my bedside clock from the era of 4-banger
calcs with tiny red bubble LED displays. I built it with a MOSTEK
clock chip, one of the first LSI devices.

Anyone remember Poly-Paks?

Reg

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2002\02\28@023031 by Jinx
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> 4004 was first of a series of microprocessors

Aw cool, 1971. Someone in the US at that time was
Squinting away in a clean room making that chip while
I was probably having my first.....er, never mind

Is there a 4004 SIG ? (kidding)

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2002\02\28@051942 by Thomas C. Sefranek

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Reginald Neale wrote:

> >
> >I have parts marked with RCA, Signetics, Sprague, GE, and other long
> >forgotten trade marks. Only another engineer could coo over such mundane
> >collectibles.
>
> Chips? I know there are other old-timers on this list, and we didn't
> need no steenkin chips. Why we walked barefoot to tech school in the
> snow, it was uphill both ways, etc etc.
>
> I was fourteen when the transistor was invented. For the first few
> years it was a laboratory curiosity. We designed instrumentation with
> vacuum tubes. Then we got our hands on the first commercially
> available transistors. My junkbox still has some CK722's and 2N107s.
> Only last year I retired my bedside clock from the era of 4-banger
> calcs with tiny red bubble LED displays. I built it with a MOSTEK
> clock chip, one of the first LSI devices.
>
> Anyone remember Poly-Paks?

Remember?

I used to be a VERY regular visitor and customer.
I liked the attitude in the store.
They let me pre-test the stuff I wanted and supplied a drum for the parts
I determined were bad.  (Which they sent to you mail order folks.)


>
>
> Reg
>
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2002\02\28@100059 by Mark Skeels

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> My junkbox still has some CK722's and 2N107s.

When I was a kid, my uncle gave me a book from Raytheon with DYI projects
using the CK722. He alkso gave me a handful of these transistors.

I sure wish I still had that stuff!

Mark

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2002\02\28@105733 by Brian Aase

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> I am looking at some Motorola parts that are in my collection.. no idea
> what they are, MC791P and MC799P. Date codes of 1970 and 1971
> respectively.

Dual J-K Flip-Flop and dual buffer, respectively.
RTL logic, runs on 3.6VDC power.

Somewhere around here I have some gold-and-white ceramic DIPs
made by Sylvania... anyone remember them? Part numbers like "AAEA2"
as I recall.  And also some bright blue colored Raytheon CK722's.

Brian Aase

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2002\02\28@124651 by Dale Botkin

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On Thu, 28 Feb 2002, Jinx wrote:

> Intel 4004 16-pin DIL, gold/ceramic, old, old, possibly memory

A 4004?  It's the first mcroprocessor, Jinx...  wanna sell it? 8-)

Dale

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2002\02\28@145851 by Sean H. Breheny

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You might check out

http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2005892644

At 11:45 AM 2/28/02 -0600, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

----------------------------------------------------
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2002\02\28@170903 by Jinx

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> A 4004?  It's the first microprocessor, Jinx...  wanna sell it? 8-)

You can have a free look. Just you though. Everyone else
donation in the hat please. Oh, I see someone's kicked
it off already. Cheers

http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/joecolquitt/i4004.html

Quick snap of one embedded in a button with crushed
opal, ready for insertion into a swamp kauri paperweight.
Well I didn't know did I. Thought they just old pretty memory

First uP eh ? Not like me to mess with history, I usually
confine my activities to messing up the present and, time
permitting, the future

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2002\02\28@192027 by Harold M Hallikainen

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On Thu, 28 Feb 2002 07:44:31 -0800 Brian Aase <.....res0qrqrKILLspamspam.....VERIZON.NET>
writes:
> > I am looking at some Motorola parts that are in my collection.. no
> idea
> > what they are, MC791P and MC799P. Date codes of 1970 and 1971
> > respectively.
>
> Dual J-K Flip-Flop and dual buffer, respectively.
> RTL logic, runs on 3.6VDC power.
>

       I've still got my big brown Motorola Microelectronics Databook from
1969. Let's see... the table of contents lists: ANALOG: operational
amplifiers, sense amplifiers (remember what they were sensing?) and
differential comparators, high frequency circuits (IF and RF amplifiers,
oscillators, etc.), low frequency circuits,
multipliers/modulators/detectors, regulators, microwave devices, special
purpose circuits, and consumer products. In DIGITAL, they list ECL, HTL,
TTL, DTL, RTL, MOS, memories, and complex arrays. The only memory chip in
the book is the XC170/XC171 128 bit ROM.

       Things have changed...

Harold

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2002\02\28@192045 by Harold M Hallikainen

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On Thu, 28 Feb 2002 05:16:02 -0500 "Thomas C. Sefranek" <EraseMEtcsspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTCMCORP.COM>
writes:
> Reginald Neale wrote:
>
> > >
> > >I have parts marked with RCA, Signetics, Sprague, GE, and other
> long
> > >forgotten trade marks. Only another engineer could coo over such
> mundane
> > >collectibles.
> >

       Some of those names are coming back! Fairchild is back. Signetics now
looks like it's in Korea. Sprague became Allegro...


> > I was fourteen when the transistor was invented. For the first few
> > years it was a laboratory curiosity. We designed instrumentation
> with
> > vacuum tubes. Then we got our hands on the first commercially
> > available transistors. My junkbox still has some CK722's and
> 2N107s.

       The invention of the transistor beat me by a couple years. My high
school electronics classes were all vacuum tube based. I remember my
first transistor project, a small AM transmitter using the 2N107. It was
from Popular Electronics magazine.

> > Only last year I retired my bedside clock from the era of 4-banger
> > calcs with tiny red bubble LED displays. I built it with a MOSTEK
> > clock chip, one of the first LSI devices.
> >

       My HP35 calculator with the little LEDs is still running. I got it in
1972...


> > Anyone remember Poly-Paks?
>


       We used to say Poly-Pak parts were "guaranteed not to unravel," but that
was about it.

       I've just read a couple books on electronics during that period. The
first is "Dealers of Lightning: Xerox Parc and the Dawn of the Computer
Age" (http://isbn.nu/0887309895) about the Xerox PARC. The second is
"Spinoff" by Charlie Sporck (http://isbn.nu/0970748108) .

       While looking for the second, I ran across
http://www.national.com/company/pressroom/history.html .

       Fun reading! Also, I have STARTED scanning broadcast equipment history
at http://www.hallikainen.org/history/equipment/ . So far this week I've
received about 20 pounds of stuff to scan from people in the broadcast
industry.

Harold



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2002\02\28@192418 by Dale Botkin

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On Thu, 28 Feb 2002, Harold M Hallikainen wrote:

> sense amplifiers (remember what they were sensing?)

Usually magnetics, often core memory, wasn't it?

Dale

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2002\02\28@192806 by Rick C.

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Hey Harold. Remember the old BPI stuff? I still have tons of RTL still in
blister packs from the good 'ole days.
Rick

Harold M Hallikainen wrote:

{Quote hidden}

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2002\02\28@211318 by Rick Sherman

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Does anybody have a copy of the original datasheet for
the Signetics "Write Only Memory"?  These came out in
about 1972.

Scanned copies can be seen here:
http://ganssle.com/misc/wom.html

Rick

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2002\02\28@214702 by Jim

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Specifically, they read the voltage pulse produced on
the 'Z' wire which caused by the 'intersection' of the
1/2 currents on the X and Y wires during a magnetic
core memory read cycle ...

The 'summed' (intersected) current at a particular 'core'
(little magnetic donut core) caused the donut to possibly
change states and a voltage to *possibly* be generated
thereby allowing the 'data bit' to be read out ... after
reading that bit (if it were, say, a 1) it had to be
"written" back in ...

I remember the first MCCR (memory control and current reg
cards) I worked on - part of a "TIPI" computer (Tactical
Interpretation of Photo Information) manufactured by TI
for a defense app ...

Jim

{Original Message removed}

2002\02\28@223041 by michael brown

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> > Intel 4004 16-pin DIL, gold/ceramic, old, old, possibly memory
>
> A 4004?  It's the first mcroprocessor, Jinx...  wanna sell it? 8-)

I know it's supposed to be the first micro, but what did we use to fly to
the moon in 1969?  The astronauts had a portable "micro" computer for doing
burn calculations amongst other functions that were no small task.  How did
they do it without a microprocessor?  You don't suppose the govt holds out
on the really good technology do you?  ;-D

michael brown

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2002\02\28@235053 by Vern Jones

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They used Motorola based ecl chips in a small onboard computer.

Vern


michael brown wrote:
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'[OT]: Old Chips'
2002\03\01@010504 by Rick C.
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I think I have it. I'll look for it.
Rick

Rick Sherman wrote:

{Quote hidden}

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2002\03\01@051835 by steve

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> > I know it's supposed to be the first micro, but what did we use
to
> > fly to the moon in 1969?  The astronauts had a portable "micro"
> > computer for doing burn calculations amongst other functions
that
> > were no small task.  How did they do it without a
microprocessor?
> > You don't suppose the govt holds out on the really good
technology
> > do you?  ;-D


> They used Motorola based ecl chips in a small onboard computer.

Sorry to be picky but they were Fairchild Micrologic (RTL) chips
each with 2 3-input NOR gates. There were 120 per logic module
and 24 logic modules in the Block 2 AGC (the type that went to the
moon). It took about 1 cubic foot and weighed 70lb.

If you only use flash micros because erasing is too much hassle,
these guys wrote a program and sent it away to be knitted into
rope core. Data memory was read once - reading it destroyed it so
it had to be written back after each read. Program memory (ROM)
was about 37k 16 bit words and data (RAM) 2k words. In that they
had an executive and waitlist (simple RTOS) and an interpreter. A
machine level add took 35us and an interpreted add took 660us.
The interpreter could do a vector cross product in 5ms.

In my book, what the guys at MIT achieved by building a computer
at transistor level and getting men safely there and back again
makes them unsung heroes of the space program.


Steve.


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TLA Microsystems Ltd         Microcontroller Specialists
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2002\03\01@064307 by Alan B. Pearce

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>Does anybody have a copy of the original datasheet for
>the Signetics "Write Only Memory"?  These came out in
>about 1972.

>Scanned copies can be seen here:
>http://ganssle.com/misc/wom.html

I guess those on this list who have been discussing the doings, or otherwise
of contract customers will be adding the last characteristic curve to all
contract negotiations - selling price for normal customers, and slow paying
customers.

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2002\03\01@092824 by Dale Botkin

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On Thu, 28 Feb 2002, Jim wrote:

> Specifically, they read the voltage pulse produced on
> the 'Z' wire which caused by the 'intersection' of the
> 1/2 currents on the X and Y wires during a magnetic
> core memory read cycle ...

Yes, in fact I still have some buffer core fom an old IBM 2821.  It's
4-wire, IIRC - X, Y, SENSE and INHIBIT, faster than 3-wire.  Sense amps
were also used in tape drives, but I don't remember whether there was any
common ground between core and tape as far as parts go.

Dale

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2002\03\01@110744 by Michael Vinson

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Rick Sherman wrote:
>Does anybody have a copy of the original datasheet for
>the Signetics "Write Only Memory"?  These came out in
>about 1972.
>
>Scanned copies can be seen here:
>http://ganssle.com/misc/wom.html

A classic!!! One of my favorite lines: "All inputs and outputs are
directly TTL compatible when proper interfacing circuitry is
employed." I love it.

Michael V

Thank you for reading my little posting.



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2002\03\01@125801 by Herbert Graf

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Anybody know if more info on those computers is available? Schematics even?
I'd think something so old would be public domain, perhaps not? Thanks, TTYL

> {Original Message removed}

2002\03\01@205017 by Harold M Hallikainen

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On Thu, 28 Feb 2002 18:23:15 -0600 Dale Botkin <daleEraseMEspam.....BOTKIN.ORG> writes:
> On Thu, 28 Feb 2002, Harold M Hallikainen wrote:
>
> > sense amplifiers (remember what they were sensing?)
>
> Usually magnetics, often core memory, wasn't it?
>
> Dale


       That's how I remember it! The first class I ever taught was assembly
language programming on the PDP-8... with a bunch of core memory!

Harold


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2002\03\01@223706 by Dale Botkin

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On Thu, 28 Feb 2002, Harold M Hallikainen wrote:

> On Thu, 28 Feb 2002 18:23:15 -0600 Dale Botkin <RemoveMEdaleEraseMEspamEraseMEBOTKIN.ORG> writes:
> > On Thu, 28 Feb 2002, Harold M Hallikainen wrote:
> >
> > > sense amplifiers (remember what they were sensing?)
> >
> > Usually magnetics, often core memory, wasn't it?
>
>         That's how I remember it! The first class I ever taught was assembly
> language programming on the PDP-8... with a bunch of core memory!

I say "usually" because I know they were also used in tape and disk
drives, back when such things were built from pieces parts instead of
monolithic chips.

Dale

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2002\03\04@125211 by Harold M Hallikainen

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On Thu, 28 Feb 2002 19:29:45 -0500 "Rick C." <RemoveMErixyTakeThisOuTspamspamVISUALLINK.COM>
writes:
> Hey Harold. Remember the old BPI stuff? I still have tons of RTL
> still in
> blister packs from the good 'ole days.
> Rick
>

       The AR2000 was quite a machine! A ton of small scale integration (all
wire wrapped) with shift register memory. As long as the shift register
stayed in sync of the address counter, all was well (and, I never
actually did see it get out of sync). As I recall, the AR2000 had a
binary counter that kept track of which address of the shift register
memory was visible at any particular time. A binary comparator would
latch that data out as it flew by, or drop in new data if we were going a
write to that location. Again, if I recall correctly, the Control Design
unit got rid of the binary comparator by always watching for zero to
latch or write. It then varied the relationship between the counter and
the shift register to read or write different locations in the shift
register. It was quite an interesting technique... all before the
availability of large solid state RAM. Both systems could handle 2000
"events". Each event consisted of a function code (1 digit) followed by 3
digits of source. I think it was all BCD, so each location had four
digits or 16 bits. So, there were 16 2,000 bit shift registers spinning
around. And it worked! Both these systems had subroutine calls (which we
used to play music sweeps from tape). I don't recall how they stored the
return address. There may have been a single return address latch so you
could not nest subroutine calls. Another interesting subroutine technique
(apparently before the idea of a stack) was used in the PDP-8. If you did
a CALL to some address, it stored the return address in the location you
CALLED, then bumped the program counter and started executing from the
second address in the subroutine. A RETURN instruction was actually an
indirect jump. You'd do an indirect jump back to the first location in
the subroutine. The return address would be pulled from there and loaded
into the program counter, returning you to where you were. This allowed
for nested subroutines, but did not allow recursion. And this was all
small scale integration. Maybe TTL, probably RTL and DTL.
       Again, stuff's changed...

Harold

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