Post by thread:[OT]: Old Chips

Three items for the thread; I am looking at some Motorola parts that are in my collection.. no idea what they are, MC791P and MC799P. Date codes of 1970 and 1971 respectively. I am redesigning cards for one customer that are all populated using Motorola MHTL logic, which is Motorola High Threshold DTL logic. The date codes on the parts on the boards in front of me are 1978, but I am sure that these are the legacy order parts, and the product itself was designed when the family was new in early seventies. Thousands of these cards are in service today waiting patiently to be replaced. I dismantled a Honeywell DDP8 mainframe used in a large building HVAC control system. Installed in 1969, we removed it in about 1992. It had paper tape for loading the program. When we killed the power, I opened up the CPU enclosure. I saw the core memory right away, but much to my stunned amazement, the hundreds of little 4x4 plug in cards were populated with 3 to 6 logic parts each that were in a gold plated SMT package. Refer back to the install date. SMT in 1969. I can only make one conjecture; they were getting their investment back from military technology. I have parts marked with RCA, Signetics, Sprague, GE, and other long forgotten trade marks. Only another engineer could coo over such mundane collectibles. Chris~ -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics

> >I have parts marked with RCA, Signetics, Sprague, GE, and other long >forgotten trade marks. Only another engineer could coo over such mundane >collectibles. Chips? I know there are other old-timers on this list, and we didn't need no steenkin chips. Why we walked barefoot to tech school in the snow, it was uphill both ways, etc etc. I was fourteen when the transistor was invented. For the first few years it was a laboratory curiosity. We designed instrumentation with vacuum tubes. Then we got our hands on the first commercially available transistors. My junkbox still has some CK722's and 2N107s. Only last year I retired my bedside clock from the era of 4-banger calcs with tiny red bubble LED displays. I built it with a MOSTEK clock chip, one of the first LSI devices. Anyone remember Poly-Paks? Reg -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.

Reginald Neale wrote: > > > >I have parts marked with RCA, Signetics, Sprague, GE, and other long > >forgotten trade marks. Only another engineer could coo over such mundane > >collectibles. > > Chips? I know there are other old-timers on this list, and we didn't > need no steenkin chips. Why we walked barefoot to tech school in the > snow, it was uphill both ways, etc etc. > > I was fourteen when the transistor was invented. For the first few > years it was a laboratory curiosity. We designed instrumentation with > vacuum tubes. Then we got our hands on the first commercially > available transistors. My junkbox still has some CK722's and 2N107s. > Only last year I retired my bedside clock from the era of 4-banger > calcs with tiny red bubble LED displays. I built it with a MOSTEK > clock chip, one of the first LSI devices. > > Anyone remember Poly-Paks? Remember? I used to be a VERY regular visitor and customer. I liked the attitude in the store. They let me pre-test the stuff I wanted and supplied a drum for the parts I determined were bad. (Which they sent to you mail order folks.) > > > Reg > > -- > http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different > ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details. -- * | __O Thomas C. Sefranek tcsKILLspamcmcorp.com |_-\<,_ Amateur Radio Operator: WA1RHP (*)/ (*) Bicycle mobile on 145.41, 448.625 MHz hamradio.cmcorp.com/inventory/Inventory.html http://www.harvardrepeater.org -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.

> I am looking at some Motorola parts that are in my collection.. no idea > what they are, MC791P and MC799P. Date codes of 1970 and 1971 > respectively. Dual J-K Flip-Flop and dual buffer, respectively. RTL logic, runs on 3.6VDC power. Somewhere around here I have some gold-and-white ceramic DIPs made by Sylvania... anyone remember them? Part numbers like "AAEA2" as I recall. And also some bright blue colored Raytheon CK722's. Brian Aase -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.

You might check out http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2005892644 At 11:45 AM 2/28/02 -0600, you wrote: {Quote hidden}>On Thu, 28 Feb 2002, Jinx wrote: > > > Intel 4004 16-pin DIL, gold/ceramic, old, old, possibly memory > >A 4004? It's the first mcroprocessor, Jinx... wanna sell it? 8-) > >Dale > >-- >http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different >ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details. ---------------------------------------------------- Sign Up for NetZero Platinum Today Only $9.95 per month! http://my.netzero.net/s/signup?r=platinum&refcd=PT97 -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.

> A 4004? It's the first microprocessor, Jinx... wanna sell it? 8-) You can have a free look. Just you though. Everyone else donation in the hat please. Oh, I see someone's kicked it off already. Cheers http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/joecolquitt/i4004.html Quick snap of one embedded in a button with crushed opal, ready for insertion into a swamp kauri paperweight. Well I didn't know did I. Thought they just old pretty memory First uP eh ? Not like me to mess with history, I usually confine my activities to messing up the present and, time permitting, the future -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.

On Thu, 28 Feb 2002 07:44:31 -0800 Brian Aase <.....res0qrqrKILLspam.....VERIZON.NET> writes: > > I am looking at some Motorola parts that are in my collection.. no > idea > > what they are, MC791P and MC799P. Date codes of 1970 and 1971 > > respectively. > > Dual J-K Flip-Flop and dual buffer, respectively. > RTL logic, runs on 3.6VDC power. > I've still got my big brown Motorola Microelectronics Databook from 1969. Let's see... the table of contents lists: ANALOG: operational amplifiers, sense amplifiers (remember what they were sensing?) and differential comparators, high frequency circuits (IF and RF amplifiers, oscillators, etc.), low frequency circuits, multipliers/modulators/detectors, regulators, microwave devices, special purpose circuits, and consumer products. In DIGITAL, they list ECL, HTL, TTL, DTL, RTL, MOS, memories, and complex arrays. The only memory chip in the book is the XC170/XC171 128 bit ROM. Things have changed... Harold FCC Rules Online at http://hallikainen.com/FccRules Lighting control for theatre and television at http://www.dovesystems.com ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: dl.http://www.juno.com/get/web/. -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.

On Thu, 28 Feb 2002 05:16:02 -0500 "Thomas C. Sefranek" <EraseMEtcsspam_OUTTakeThisOuTCMCORP.COM> writes: > Reginald Neale wrote: > > > > > > >I have parts marked with RCA, Signetics, Sprague, GE, and other > long > > >forgotten trade marks. Only another engineer could coo over such > mundane > > >collectibles. > > Some of those names are coming back! Fairchild is back. Signetics now looks like it's in Korea. Sprague became Allegro... > > I was fourteen when the transistor was invented. For the first few > > years it was a laboratory curiosity. We designed instrumentation > with > > vacuum tubes. Then we got our hands on the first commercially > > available transistors. My junkbox still has some CK722's and > 2N107s. The invention of the transistor beat me by a couple years. My high school electronics classes were all vacuum tube based. I remember my first transistor project, a small AM transmitter using the 2N107. It was from Popular Electronics magazine. > > Only last year I retired my bedside clock from the era of 4-banger > > calcs with tiny red bubble LED displays. I built it with a MOSTEK > > clock chip, one of the first LSI devices. > > My HP35 calculator with the little LEDs is still running. I got it in 1972... > > Anyone remember Poly-Paks? > We used to say Poly-Pak parts were "guaranteed not to unravel," but that was about it. I've just read a couple books on electronics during that period. The first is "Dealers of Lightning: Xerox Parc and the Dawn of the Computer Age" (http://isbn.nu/0887309895) about the Xerox PARC. The second is "Spinoff" by Charlie Sporck (http://isbn.nu/0970748108) . While looking for the second, I ran across http://www.national.com/company/pressroom/history.html . Fun reading! Also, I have STARTED scanning broadcast equipment history at http://www.hallikainen.org/history/equipment/ . So far this week I've received about 20 pounds of stuff to scan from people in the broadcast industry. Harold FCC Rules Online at http://hallikainen.com/FccRules Lighting control for theatre and television at http://www.dovesystems.com ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: dl.http://www.juno.com/get/web/. -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.

Hey Harold. Remember the old BPI stuff? I still have tons of RTL still in blister packs from the good 'ole days. Rick Harold M Hallikainen wrote: {Quote hidden}> On Thu, 28 Feb 2002 07:44:31 -0800 Brian Aase <res0qrqrspam_OUTVERIZON.NET> > writes: > > > I am looking at some Motorola parts that are in my collection.. no > > idea > > > what they are, MC791P and MC799P. Date codes of 1970 and 1971 > > > respectively. > > > > Dual J-K Flip-Flop and dual buffer, respectively. > > RTL logic, runs on 3.6VDC power. > > > > I've still got my big brown Motorola Microelectronics Databook from > 1969. Let's see... the table of contents lists: ANALOG: operational > amplifiers, sense amplifiers (remember what they were sensing?) and > differential comparators, high frequency circuits (IF and RF amplifiers, > oscillators, etc.), low frequency circuits, > multipliers/modulators/detectors, regulators, microwave devices, special > purpose circuits, and consumer products. In DIGITAL, they list ECL, HTL, > TTL, DTL, RTL, MOS, memories, and complex arrays. The only memory chip in > the book is the XC170/XC171 128 bit ROM. > > Things have changed... > > Harold > > FCC Rules Online at http://hallikainen.com/FccRules > Lighting control for theatre and television at http://www.dovesystems.com > > ________________________________________________________________ > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! > Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: > dl.http://www.juno.com/get/web/. > > -- > http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different > ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details. -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.

Specifically, they read the voltage pulse produced on the 'Z' wire which caused by the 'intersection' of the 1/2 currents on the X and Y wires during a magnetic core memory read cycle ... The 'summed' (intersected) current at a particular 'core' (little magnetic donut core) caused the donut to possibly change states and a voltage to *possibly* be generated thereby allowing the 'data bit' to be read out ... after reading that bit (if it were, say, a 1) it had to be "written" back in ... I remember the first MCCR (memory control and current reg cards) I worked on - part of a "TIPI" computer (Tactical Interpretation of Photo Information) manufactured by TI for a defense app ... Jim {Original Message removed}

> > Intel 4004 16-pin DIL, gold/ceramic, old, old, possibly memory > > A 4004? It's the first mcroprocessor, Jinx... wanna sell it? 8-) I know it's supposed to be the first micro, but what did we use to fly to the moon in 1969? The astronauts had a portable "micro" computer for doing burn calculations amongst other functions that were no small task. How did they do it without a microprocessor? You don't suppose the govt holds out on the really good technology do you? ;-D michael brown -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.

They used Motorola based ecl chips in a small onboard computer. Vern michael brown wrote: {Quote hidden}> > > > Intel 4004 16-pin DIL, gold/ceramic, old, old, possibly memory > > > > A 4004? It's the first mcroprocessor, Jinx... wanna sell it? 8-) > > I know it's supposed to be the first micro, but what did we use to fly to > the moon in 1969? The astronauts had a portable "micro" computer for doing > burn calculations amongst other functions that were no small task. How did > they do it without a microprocessor? You don't suppose the govt holds out > on the really good technology do you? ;-D > > michael brown > > -- > http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different > ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details. -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.

I think I have it. I'll look for it. Rick Rick Sherman wrote: {Quote hidden}> Does anybody have a copy of the original datasheet for > the Signetics "Write Only Memory"? These came out in > about 1972. > > Scanned copies can be seen here: > http://ganssle.com/misc/wom.html > > Rick > > -- > http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different > ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details. -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email @spam@listservKILLspammitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

> > I know it's supposed to be the first micro, but what did we use to > > fly to the moon in 1969? The astronauts had a portable "micro" > > computer for doing burn calculations amongst other functions that > > were no small task. How did they do it without a microprocessor? > > You don't suppose the govt holds out on the really good technology > > do you? ;-D > They used Motorola based ecl chips in a small onboard computer. Sorry to be picky but they were Fairchild Micrologic (RTL) chips each with 2 3-input NOR gates. There were 120 per logic module and 24 logic modules in the Block 2 AGC (the type that went to the moon). It took about 1 cubic foot and weighed 70lb. If you only use flash micros because erasing is too much hassle, these guys wrote a program and sent it away to be knitted into rope core. Data memory was read once - reading it destroyed it so it had to be written back after each read. Program memory (ROM) was about 37k 16 bit words and data (RAM) 2k words. In that they had an executive and waitlist (simple RTOS) and an interpreter. A machine level add took 35us and an interpreted add took 660us. The interpreter could do a vector cross product in 5ms. In my book, what the guys at MIT achieved by building a computer at transistor level and getting men safely there and back again makes them unsung heroes of the space program. Steve. ====================================================== Steve Baldwin Electronic Product Design TLA Microsystems Ltd Microcontroller Specialists PO Box 15-680, New Lynn http://www.tla.co.nz Auckland, New Zealand ph +64 9 820-2221 email: KILLspamstevebKILLspamtla.co.nz fax +64 9 820-1929 ====================================================== -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email RemoveMElistservTakeThisOuTmitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

>Does anybody have a copy of the original datasheet for >the Signetics "Write Only Memory"? These came out in >about 1972. >Scanned copies can be seen here: >http://ganssle.com/misc/wom.html I guess those on this list who have been discussing the doings, or otherwise of contract customers will be adding the last characteristic curve to all contract negotiations - selling price for normal customers, and slow paying customers. -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email spamBeGonelistservspamBeGonemitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

On Thu, 28 Feb 2002, Jim wrote: > Specifically, they read the voltage pulse produced on > the 'Z' wire which caused by the 'intersection' of the > 1/2 currents on the X and Y wires during a magnetic > core memory read cycle ... Yes, in fact I still have some buffer core fom an old IBM 2821. It's 4-wire, IIRC - X, Y, SENSE and INHIBIT, faster than 3-wire. Sense amps were also used in tape drives, but I don't remember whether there was any common ground between core and tape as far as parts go. Dale -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email TakeThisOuTlistservEraseMEspam_OUTmitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

Rick Sherman wrote: >Does anybody have a copy of the original datasheet for >the Signetics "Write Only Memory"? These came out in >about 1972. > >Scanned copies can be seen here: >http://ganssle.com/misc/wom.html A classic!!! One of my favorite lines: "All inputs and outputs are directly TTL compatible when proper interfacing circuitry is employed." I love it. Michael V Thank you for reading my little posting. _________________________________________________________________ Join the world s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email RemoveMElistservTakeThisOuTmitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

On Thu, 28 Feb 2002 18:23:15 -0600 Dale Botkin <daleEraseME.....BOTKIN.ORG> writes: > On Thu, 28 Feb 2002, Harold M Hallikainen wrote: > > > sense amplifiers (remember what they were sensing?) > > Usually magnetics, often core memory, wasn't it? > > Dale That's how I remember it! The first class I ever taught was assembly language programming on the PDP-8... with a bunch of core memory! Harold FCC Rules Online at http://hallikainen.com/FccRules Lighting control for theatre and television at http://www.dovesystems.com ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: dl.http://www.juno.com/get/web/. -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email EraseMElistservmitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

On Thu, 28 Feb 2002, Harold M Hallikainen wrote: > On Thu, 28 Feb 2002 18:23:15 -0600 Dale Botkin <RemoveMEdaleEraseMEEraseMEBOTKIN.ORG> writes: > > On Thu, 28 Feb 2002, Harold M Hallikainen wrote: > > > > > sense amplifiers (remember what they were sensing?) > > > > Usually magnetics, often core memory, wasn't it? > > That's how I remember it! The first class I ever taught was assembly > language programming on the PDP-8... with a bunch of core memory! I say "usually" because I know they were also used in tape and disk drives, back when such things were built from pieces parts instead of monolithic chips. Dale -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email RemoveMElistservspam_OUTKILLspammitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

On Thu, 28 Feb 2002 19:29:45 -0500 "Rick C." <RemoveMErixyTakeThisOuTspamVISUALLINK.COM> writes: > Hey Harold. Remember the old BPI stuff? I still have tons of RTL > still in > blister packs from the good 'ole days. > Rick > The AR2000 was quite a machine! A ton of small scale integration (all wire wrapped) with shift register memory. As long as the shift register stayed in sync of the address counter, all was well (and, I never actually did see it get out of sync). As I recall, the AR2000 had a binary counter that kept track of which address of the shift register memory was visible at any particular time. A binary comparator would latch that data out as it flew by, or drop in new data if we were going a write to that location. Again, if I recall correctly, the Control Design unit got rid of the binary comparator by always watching for zero to latch or write. It then varied the relationship between the counter and the shift register to read or write different locations in the shift register. It was quite an interesting technique... all before the availability of large solid state RAM. Both systems could handle 2000 "events". Each event consisted of a function code (1 digit) followed by 3 digits of source. I think it was all BCD, so each location had four digits or 16 bits. So, there were 16 2,000 bit shift registers spinning around. And it worked! Both these systems had subroutine calls (which we used to play music sweeps from tape). I don't recall how they stored the return address. There may have been a single return address latch so you could not nest subroutine calls. Another interesting subroutine technique (apparently before the idea of a stack) was used in the PDP-8. If you did a CALL to some address, it stored the return address in the location you CALLED, then bumped the program counter and started executing from the second address in the subroutine. A RETURN instruction was actually an indirect jump. You'd do an indirect jump back to the first location in the subroutine. The return address would be pulled from there and loaded into the program counter, returning you to where you were. This allowed for nested subroutines, but did not allow recursion. And this was all small scale integration. Maybe TTL, probably RTL and DTL. Again, stuff's changed... Harold FCC Rules Online at http://hallikainen.com/FccRules Lighting control for theatre and television at http://www.dovesystems.com ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: dl.http://www.juno.com/get/web/. -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics