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'[OT]: Mirrors'
2001\03\19@135304 by Barry Gershenfeld

picon face
At 09:55 PM 3/18/01 +0300, you wrote:
>>Hey I have been pondering making a transmissive LCD array into an on/off
>>mirror that I could mount into the back window of my car to reflect back
>>the light of the $%^& who has his headlights too high behind me. I had
>>been wondering how to have the mirror dynamically self focus on the
>>driver, now I know. Perhaps I really should have changed the subject to
>>[PIC] after all.
>
>Just place a row of catadiopters on the front collision bar. The 2 inch
>ones used for theodolite survey work will do fine. You don't need to
>orient them, they return the glare where it came from. I also suspect that
>this is not legal so I did not say that you should do this. I.e. don't do
>this.
>
>Peter

Presumably that fancy word means "corner reflector".  I have thought
about doing that ever since I've been driving.  But I figured I would
just reflect the light back to the headlights, not the driver.

(Just tried James' amazing dictionary search.  Not there.  We'll
hafta wait for the "add one yourself" feature.)

Barry

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2001\03\20@124054 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
Them catadiopters (fancy word for multi-corner reflectors) are usually
good to return 95% or more of the incident light. That should make for
some glare if the enemy is close enough. They do not return the beam to
the headlights, because the beam continues to be divergent, so everyone
sees it.

Peter

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'[OT]: Mirrors'
2001\05\20@084724 by Jinx
face picon face
More ramblings from the South Pacific

I was blowing myself kisses in the mirror today, as is my wont,
when I got to wondering why mirrors reflect left to right but not
up to down. I mean, I'm OK with them the way they are, I couldn't
see myself in a house without mirrors (ha ha). I've looked for an
answer but no luck. This "explanation" at How Stuff Works is a
pretty sorry attempt. In fact it dodges the question altogether

http://www.howstuffworks.com/question415.htm

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2001\05\20@090345 by Alexandre Domingos F. Souza

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face
>I was blowing myself kisses in the mirror today, as is my wont,
>when I got to wondering why mirrors reflect left to right but not
>up to down. I mean, I'm OK with them the way they are, I couldn't

       Man...people are geting high here...wow...It remember me "the wastoid quiz" (where the bufalo roam) :oD

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2001\05\20@093258 by Jinx

face picon face
> Man...people are geting high here

It's all this walking around upside-down

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2001\05\20@093315 by Dale Botkin

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On Mon, 21 May 2001, Jinx wrote:

> More ramblings from the South Pacific
>
> I was blowing myself kisses in the mirror today, as is my wont,
> when I got to wondering why mirrors reflect left to right but not
> up to down. I mean, I'm OK with them the way they are, I couldn't
> see myself in a house without mirrors (ha ha). I've looked for an
> answer but no luck. This "explanation" at How Stuff Works is a
> pretty sorry attempt. In fact it dodges the question altogether
>
> http://www.howstuffworks.com/question415.htm

The mirror doesn't reverse anything.  Your point of view is reversed
left-to-right when you look at something in a mirror as compared to
looking at it directly, but the reflection in the mirror isn't reversed.
If you're looking in the mirror, your left side is on your left side and
your right side is on your right side.

Think of this example.  If you're holding up a transparent sheet with
writing on it and looking at it so you can read it, you would have to turn
it around -- reversing it -- to show it to someone coming toward you.
You could still read it just fine in a mirror, though.

Of course this doesn't include concave mirrors.

Dale
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On my desk I have a workstation...

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2001\05\20@101211 by Quentin

flavicon
face
Your mind has a point of reference, and that point is the side to which
gravity pulls you. Same always when you look in a mirror, because you
mind tells you so.
Also you are symmetrical left and right, but not top and bottom. And
your mind tends to compare your image with other persons; it accepts up
and down, but gets confused with what is left and right when you look at
yourself because it wants to compare the image with other persons.

More ramblings: Something that has fascinated me for a long while when I
was a child is that your eyes see all images upside down (lens affect,
etc.) but your brain turns it around. So for a long time I tried to
imagine seeing things as it should be, which it's not, but still is....
AAAaaargh!

Either you guys down under are very bored or very busy. Bored because
you got nothing to do or you are so busy with a project that you need to
post something like this as a break (like I've just done, hehe).

Quentin

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2001\05\20@103713 by Spehro Pefhany

picon face
At 04:11 PM 5/20/01 +0200, you wrote:

>More ramblings: Something that has fascinated me for a long while when I
>was a child is that your eyes see all images upside down (lens affect,
>etc.) but your brain turns it around. So for a long time I tried to
>imagine seeing things as it should be, which it's not, but still is....
>AAAaaargh!

Apparently if you wear glasses that invert the image so that everything
looks upside-down, after a period of some weeks, your brain will adjust
and you will see things right-side-up again. Or so I have read.

It would be interesting how that would happen, all at once, or
slipping back and forth like trying to focus on one of those 3-D
mosaic posters.

>Either you guys down under are very bored or very busy. Bored because
>you got nothing to do or you are so busy with a project that you need to
>post something like this as a break (like I've just done, hehe).

Have you been peeking at my to-do list?

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2001\05\20@215805 by P.C. Uiterlinden

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Jinx wrote:
>
> More ramblings from the South Pacific
>
> I was blowing myself kisses in the mirror today, as is my wont,
> when I got to wondering why mirrors reflect left to right but not
> up to down.

I  guess a mirror just changes front and back, not left/right
nor up/down. It's like looking back to something that's behind
you on your left side. Turn around and it'll be right of you.

Paul.

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2001\05\20@215826 by Jinx

face picon face
> Apparently if you wear glasses that invert the image so that
> everything looks upside-down, after a period of some weeks,
> your brain will adjust and you will see things right-side-up again.
> Or so I have read.

I've seen an old black/white film of that. Done by some shrinks
in the 50s or 60s. After the experiment it took a similar time for
the experimentees to get back to normal. I think it would take a
stronger constitution than mine to volunteer for that. They also
got them to ride a bicycle with gearing that made the steering
back to front. You turn left, you go right etc

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2001\05\20@215830 by Jinx

face picon face
From: Quentin

> Your mind has a point of reference

I think I've got it now. HSW perhaps didn't really dodge the question
but they could've included a "Mirrors don't reflect top to bottom
because......" sentence.

> More ramblings: Something that has fascinated me for a long
> while when I was a child is that your eyes see all images upside

I saw a documentary once on strange afflictions that some poor
people have. Like negated images, inverted images, inability to
name a colour, and very poor processing of images, which is like
watching just one or two frames of a movie every second. There's
no continuous motion, nasty

> Either you guys down under are very bored or very busy. Bored
> because you got nothing to do or you are so busy with a project
> that you need to post something like this as a break (like I've just
> done, hehe)

Yeah, just a bit of Sunday fun. Just one of those daft questions like
"If rhino horn is such a good aphrodisiac why aren't there more
rhinos ?". Most days I wish I had nothing to do, it's non-stop from go
to whoa

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2001\05\20@220751 by Alexandre Domingos F. Souza

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>I've seen an old black/white film of that. Done by some shrinks
>in the 50s or 60s. After the experiment it took a similar time for
>the experimentees to get back to normal. I think it would take a
>stronger constitution than mine to volunteer for that. They also
>got them to ride a bicycle with gearing that made the steering
>back to front. You turn left, you go right etc

       Just fly a model airplane heads-down, and you will feel the effect :o)

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2001\05\20@230952 by Russell McMahon

picon face
Jinx said

> I was blowing myself kisses in the mirror today, as is my wont,
> when I got to wondering why mirrors reflect left to right but not
> up to down. I mean, I'm OK with them the way they are, I couldn't
> see myself in a house without mirrors (ha ha). I've looked for an
> answer but no luck. This "explanation" at How Stuff Works is a
> pretty sorry attempt. In fact it dodges the question altogether


As others have noted - mirror does nothing and just passes things straight
back as it "sees them" (as you'd hope) - how you interpret this is all in
your mind.

BUT

I have a device sold as a through door viewer (no, you need a hole) to see
people standing outside.

The device is tubular in shape.
There is a "right way up" when mounting this
If you look though this and rotate it 90 degrees the image turns 180
degrees.
Rotate it 180 degrees and the image turns 360 degrees to be right way up
again.
It's an optical image rotator with a gain of 2 times !!!

No amount of lense processing seemed to explain this.
I had to pull it apart to see how it worked.
It's almost obvious once you see how.

Anyone seen this effect?

Would anyone who hasn't seen it before or cheated by pulling one apart care
to venture how it may work?
Be prepared to waste some time and brain power.
A useful education.

:-)



Russell McMahon

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2001\05\21@051119 by Russell McMahon

picon face
Response re Jinx's mischief ...


From: "Ian H Young" <comaidEraseMEspam.....intercoast.com.au>
To: "Russell McMahon" <EraseMEapptechspamclear.net.nz>
Sent: Monday, 21 May 2001 20:35
Subject: Re: [OT]: Mirrors


> Russell
> 1. Mirror: This is an interesting concept.  A mirror laterally inverts but
not
> vertically.  The Physics and geometry are obvious but getting ones mind
around
> it is difficult.  The following are my attempts:
> a) Face away from the mirror and turn to face it.  You have turned on a
> vertical axis and the mirror laterally inverts.  Again face away from the
> mirror and turn to face it around a horizontal axis (I suggest this as a
> thought experiment rather that a literal). You will notice you are
vertically
> inverted in the mirror.
> b) Repeat the exercise lying horizontally.  The same applies.
> I think the problem with our thought process is that we equate the
arbitrary
> left and right which changes when we turn around or look at a person from
> behind with the reality of up and down. The mirror does not reverse
up/down or
> laterally but it does reverse the dimension normal to the mirror.  Look
into a
> mirror while facing north.  The image's head points up, feet down and the
hand
> with the wedding ring points west but the nose points south.
>
> 2 Your peephole: I have no idea your peephole design but I suspect it
contains
> a mirror.  Rotating a mirror through an angle A, appears to rotate the
image
> through 2A.
>
> Could this be a physical explanation of electron spin of 1/2.  The
electron has
> to turn around twice to turn through 360 deg.  Does this mean an electron
is
> only a mirror image of something.  I have often suspected modern
theoretical
> physics is a trick with mirrors.  Maybe the Bible is right onto it "Now we
see
> but a poor reflection" 1 Corinthians 13:12 or even Plato with his
reflected
> shadows on the wall of his cave.
>
> If  you think I am writing a load of b-------, don't forget you asked for
it!
>
> Regards
>
> Ian Young

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2001\05\21@082556 by Bob Ammerman

picon face
It is going to have a prism in it. This will show the double-angle response
described.

Bob Ammerman
RAm Systems
(contract development of high performance, high function, low-level
software)

{Original Message removed}

2001\05\21@091327 by Russell McMahon

picon face
> > I have a device sold as a through door viewer (no, you need a hole) to
see
> > people standing outside.
> >
> > The device is tubular in shape.
> > There is a "right way up" when mounting this
> > If you look though this and rotate it 90 degrees the image turns 180
> > degrees.
> > Rotate it 180 degrees and the image turns 360 degrees to be right way up
> > again.
> > It's an optical image rotator with a gain of 2 times !!!

> It is going to have a prism in it. This will show the double-angle
response
> described.
> Bob Ammerman

Yes! - give the man a virtual cigar.
In fact two prisms side by side and some lenses, although I would have to
sit down and work out the arrangement as memory fails.
Someone suggested a possible similarity with the electron 1/2 spin
situatuion and I had also thought of this similarity.
I have no idea wherther there is in fact a physical analog of the electron
situation but the two have superficially similar properties. (An electron
must rotate twice to achieve one physical rotation - hmmm - I know that's
not well put - anyone want to improve on that?). In the case of my viewer
the image rotates twice (720 degrees) if you rotate the viewer body 360
degrees. Mindblowing on first encounter.

RM

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2001\05\21@095138 by James R. Cunningham

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face
A friend of mine once inadvertantly  took off in a plane that had had the
aileron controls reversed.  He said it was highly entertaining till he
figured out what had happened.

Jim

Jinx wrote:

> They also
> got them to ride a bicycle with gearing that made the steering
> back to front. You turn left, you go right etc

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2001\05\21@110051 by Dale Botkin

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On Mon, 21 May 2001, James R. Cunningham wrote:

> A friend of mine once inadvertantly  took off in a plane that had had the
> aileron controls reversed.  He said it was highly entertaining till he
> figured out what had happened.
>
> Jim

He was exceedingly lucky to have survived, and was obviously not making a
crosswind takeoff.  I assume he's learned how to pre-flight an aircraft
now...

Dale
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2001\05\21@152344 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
> why

It results from the law of reflection and the fact that your eyes are side
by side and not on top of each other (martians anyone ?). By inverse ray
tracing from each eye one at a time to what you are looking at you will
see what I mean. If your eyes would be on top of each other the mirror
would not 'mirror' L/R but top/down (in your opinion). Prove this by
turning your head 90 degrees (horizontal). The mirroring turns with your
head q.e.d. If you would have more than 2 eyes I suspect that you would
avoid looking into mirrors to avoid headaches (what does a 3-eyed being
see when looking in a mirror, assuming its eyes are at the points of a
triangle ?).

Peter

PS: What exactly do you do just before you have these questions showing up
if I may ask ? ;-)

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2001\05\21@152413 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
You can make a mirror that reflects an image *without* reversing anything.
It is made by forming millions of tiny catadiopters (the improved version
of two mirrors at 90 degrees and looking into the V) on a surface. It also
has the property that you can see yourself in it even if you move around
(in a normal mirror your reflection moves away from you and there is only
a small range where you can see yourself). This is quite unnerving when
you first do it (you see yourself staring at you as you move around).

Hey, this is a good intelligence test ! Animals should attack the thing or
run away from it. Also some humans ;-). The remaining ones are
intelligent.

Peter

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2001\05\21@183741 by Jinx

face picon face
> PS: What exactly do you do just before you have these questions
> showing up if I may ask ? ;-)

Shape-shifting reptilian aliens in the White House, Masonic funny
handshakes, why Sandra Bullock is a star, what really happens in
the inner sanctum of the Antipodean en suite - questions best left
to the check-out tabloids

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2001\05\21@183755 by Jinx

face picon face
From: Steve Baldwin

> > They also got them to
> > ride a bicycle with gearing that made the steering back to front. You
> > turn left, you go right etc
>
> There was a hot-rod event here a few years ago where one of the
> competitions was an obstacle course using the vehicle provided.
> This was a Morris 1100 (a small, front wheel drive English car from
> the 60's affectionately referred to as a 'land-crab') except that there
> were two that looked identical - one standard (which set the time to
> beat) and one that had the steering reversed by turning the rack
> upside-down and the pedals had been moved to the passenger side.
> Since the passenger didn't know the steering was reversed and
> controlled the speed .......
>
> The event was held at a racetrack with lots of armco, concrete
> walls and hay bails. Don't try this at home. (But if you do, it's very
> entertaining.)
>
> Steve.

I think I've seen people driving cars like this out on the roads :)

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2001\05\21@183800 by Jinx

face picon face
> Hey, this is a good intelligence test ! Animals should attack the thing
> or run away from it. Also some humans ;-). The remaining ones are
> intelligent.
>
> Peter

There was a two-part documentary on TVNZ a few weeks ago trying
to work out which is the smartest animal (primates excluded). The
NZ kea parrot came out on top. Apart from it's ability to solve problems
it's also one of the very few animals that isn't fooled its own reflection.
The ones under test performed a little dance and lifted wings and legs
just to see the reflection do it too, very comical. They were on to it, no
doubt

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2001\05\21@193326 by Tom Messenger

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At 10:34 AM 5/22/01 +1200, you wrote:
>There was a two-part documentary on TVNZ a few weeks ago trying
>to work out which is the smartest animal (primates excluded). The
>NZ kea parrot came out on top. Apart from it's ability to solve problems
>it's also one of the very few animals that isn't fooled its own reflection.


Actually, they are not alone in this trait. Lawyers also qualify mainly
because they have no reflection.

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2001\05\21@205522 by Chris Cox

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What would a 3 eyed being see when NOT looking into a mirror???!!! It
all depends on the mapping of the optical/neuronal endpoints in some
"brain" or whatever the 3 eyed being has to comprehend photon
stimulation of said neurons. From birth the 3 eyed being would be
imprinting a 3 eyed world, along with it's mirror reflections, on it's
brain, however different from the mammalian brain that may be. It was
mentioned that a study was done to turn the view upside down for some
volunteers. This was done at a university and the students wore this
device continuously or eye mask when sleeping. After a short time, 2-3
weeks as stated, they perceived the new upside down world as normal and
functioned quite normally. When they took the gear off, it was upside
down again... It would be very interesting to do cat scans before,
during and after to see what activity the brain is doing during the
transition both ways...


"Peter L. Peres" wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2001\05\21@215355 by Bill Westfield

face picon face
Did you know that you can't see your eyes move in a mirror?

BillW

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2001\05\22@021938 by Russell McMahon

picon face
> > PS: What exactly do you do just before you have these questions
> > showing up if I may ask ? ;-)
>
> Shape-shifting reptilian aliens in the White House, Masonic funny
> handshakes, why Sandra Bullock is a star, what really happens in
> the inner sanctum of the Antipodean en suite - questions best left
> to the check-out tabloids

No mirrors involved, but I'm convinced that Tiger Woods is an alien (no, not
that sort, I'm sure he's a US citizen).
Look at his scores in a multi game match. Look at where he is in the order
after say 3 games.(Typically he can be down around 25th at some stages).
Plot his progress through the field. Watch what happens next. See how he
suddenly starts to rise through the ranks coming from 7 strokes behind to 4
ahead. See him gain 4 strokes in 5 holes over the person (who happens to be
a New Zealander) who was 7 strokes ahead of him the day before.

Now think about what results he would be getting if he played like this from
1st tee off instead of after waiting for 3 games to start his run. Work out
his score.

Now we just have to decide which star system he comes from.

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2001\05\22@154544 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
> There was a two-part documentary on TVNZ a few weeks ago trying to
> work out which is the smartest animal (primates excluded). The NZ kea
> parrot came out on top. Apart from it's ability to solve problems it's
> also one of the very few animals that isn't fooled its own reflection.
> The ones under test performed a little dance and lifted wings and legs
> just to see the reflection do it too, very comical. They were on to
> it, no doubt

I think that most animals can cope with their own reflections quite fine.
Think of the waterhole ? This is surely not something new to most of them.

What they probably cannot cope with is a catadiopter. It will stare back
at them from wherever they look into it (within the aperture of the
device). You have to try this to understand what I mean.

Peter

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2001\05\22@221930 by Alexandre Domingos F. Souza

flavicon
face
>> PS: What exactly do you do just before you have these questions
>> showing up if I may ask ? ;-)
>
>Shape-shifting reptilian aliens in the White House

       Never saw one? Man, they ARE funny! Or do you think Chelsea was ugly that way because her mother also is ugly?

> Masonic funny handshakes

       Ué, are they different from normal handshakes? Maybe a loss/add of an ACK and a NACK? X-on/X-off anyone??? :o)

> why Sandra Bullock is a star

       Because she is B E A U T I F U L. Period.

> what really happens in the inner sanctum of the Antipodean en suite

       Ué, what everyone does. Begin with An.. and ends with SEX. :o)

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2001\05\22@224405 by David VanHorn

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At 11:24 PM 5/22/01 -0300, Alexandre Domingos F. Souza wrote:
> >> PS: What exactly do you do just before you have these questions
> >> showing up if I may ask ? ;-)
> >
> >Shape-shifting reptilian aliens in the White House

I'd vote shape-shifting reptillian, given a choice.

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2001\05\22@224611 by michael brown

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter L. Peres" <TakeThisOuTplpKILLspamspamspamACTCOM.CO.IL>
To: <.....PICLISTspamRemoveMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2001 2:07 PM
Subject: Re: [OT]: Mirrors


{Quote hidden}

My experience with cats and dogs seems to indicate that the reflections
scent seems to be (at least as if not) more important than the visual.
Since the animal in the mirror has no scent, they tend to quickly learn to
ignore it.  I don't think that they recognize the reflection as their own.

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2001\05\22@233427 by Jinx

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>Shape-shifting reptilian aliens in the White House

       Never saw one? Man, they ARE funny!

http://www.davidicke.com

He's a tabloid reporter so it must all be true :0))))  Perhaps they
came to our Solar Sytem on that bus found on the Moon

http://www.reptilianagenda.com

and goodness golly gosh even the Royals aren't what they seem

http://www.reptilianagenda.com/research/r112299b.html

I know the Queen Mum is 100+ but she isn't THAT bad-looking

You almost feel some empathy for con men, people make it so
easy for them

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2001\05\22@233445 by Jinx

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> > >Shape-shifting reptilian aliens in the White House
>
> I'd vote shape-shifting reptillian, given a choice.

Maybe you did, maybe you did

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2001\05\23@053937 by Jinx
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> I think that most animals can cope with their own reflections quite
> fine. Think of the waterhole ? This is surely not something new to
> most of them.

Certainly true of reflections in water but many animals, being territorial,
must see a vertical reflection in a mirror as an intruder and attack. This
was demonstrated with a variety of fish, birds and mammals. I expect
after not getting a response from the reflection for a while they'd ignore
it,
like birds do a scarecrow. Keas and octopi are genuinely curious and
seem to react intelligently to their reflection for some time

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2001\05\23@061040 by Roman Black

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michael brown wrote:

> > What they probably cannot cope with is a catadiopter. It will stare back
> > at them from wherever they look into it (within the aperture of the
> > device). You have to try this to understand what I mean.
> >
> > Peter
> My experience with cats and dogs seems to indicate that the reflections
> scent seems to be (at least as if not) more important than the visual.
> Since the animal in the mirror has no scent, they tend to quickly learn to
> ignore it.  I don't think that they recognize the reflection as their own.


I have had a few cats, both male and female. The
males are MUCH smarter (try explaining that difference
to a feminist), and the females generally think the
cat in the mirror is another cat and attack it or
scratch at the mirror like it's an opening. They
do this for the rest of their lives!

The males check-out themselves in the mirror, look
behind their ears, etc, then decide it's a waste
of time and never bother with the mirror again. I'm
not sure why the huge intellect difference exists
between male and female cats but it is so obvious
in many ways.
-Roman

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