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'[OT]: MPLAB IDE 5.7 (16-bit) : MPASM Relocatable c'
2002\10\20@181808 by cdb

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Starting a World Wide Fund to purchase Olin a new Mail reader !

I recommend PocoMail - no problems reading emails here or Pine
perhaps!

Perhaps we could have a new tag [NFOM]: Not For Olin's Mail

Colin
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2002\10\20@184956 by Herbert Graf

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> Starting a World Wide Fund to purchase Olin a new Mail reader !
>
> I recommend PocoMail - no problems reading emails here or Pine
> perhaps!
>
> Perhaps we could have a new tag [NFOM]: Not For Olin's Mail

       What's wrong with the one he's got??

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2002\10\20@185825 by cdb

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It refuses to make allowances for non standard email setups.

I am concerned that if too many emails arrive in non - Olin format
he'll have an apoplectic fit - and that can't be good for him or
anyone. <grin>

colin
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2002\10\20@195921 by Herbert Graf

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> It refuses to make allowances for non standard email setups.
>
> I am concerned that if too many emails arrive in non - Olin format
> he'll have an apoplectic fit - and that can't be good for him or
> anyone. <grin>

       Actually that has nothing to do with his reader, he is just more vocal then
most of us with the annoyances caused by these "non-standard" emails. TTYL

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2002\10\20@230112 by William Chops Westfield

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>> It refuses to make allowances for non standard email setups.

"quoted printable" isn't standard - it's part of the evil microsoft empire's
attempt to take over the world by proliferating crap in such huge volumes
that everyone decides they have to support crap as a standard anyway.  My
mail reader doesn't understand MIME at all ("My mail reader is older than
your mail reader.  Nyah, nyah!"), but my employer seems to automatically
get rid of quoted-printable stuff - it comes with an extra header:

 X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by cisco.com id PAA19835

:-)
BillW

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2002\10\21@024146 by c Scheepers

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Hi there,

I am not sure what the fuss is about , is it because I use Microsoft Software or is it because I did not catch the rule of plain text messages that is obscured somewhere in the unsaid rules you guys have.
If Olin thinks I was arrogant to sent in MIME format I am sorry, cause I thought everybody keeps up with technology and does not stay in the days we worked in DOS. But in anycase thanks for the answer at least someone answered me.


Regards

Nic Scheepers

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2002\10\21@033407 by Nate Duehr

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<Seriously OT E-mail Format RANT MODE ON>

On Mon, 2002-10-21 at 00:47, Nic Scheepers wrote:
> If Olin thinks I was arrogant to sent in MIME format I am sorry, cause I thought everybody keeps up with technology and does not stay in the days we worked in DOS. But in anycase thanks for the answer at least someone answered me.

Interesting point and one I'd love to expound on, you hit one of my pet
peeves!  Don't take this the wrong way, but I want to see if you have
followed your line of reasoning to its logical end.  I don't think it's
so much an unwritten rule of just the PIC-List, but of most mailing
lists to use plain-text format.  And here's why...

Yes, we've moved on from DOS.  In the "old" days of DOS, we had a
standard known as ASCII.  (And before ASCII we had a whole bunch of
really evil standards, but we won't go there right now...)

Later the Unix folks added (before Windows even existed) UUencode for
binary files transferred through 7-bit pipes, among other things, just
to show that MIME's concept of handling binary files isn't exactly a
"new" idea.

Now, you said "I thought everyone keeps up with technology".  I'd argue
that we all probably *DO* keep up with technology -- far more than the
average group of folks.  Olin probably included.

If there is a technology benefit to MIME encoding or HTML e-mail, can
you explain the benefit that your specific public (ASCII text) posting
to a mailing list gained from being MIME-encoded quoted-printable that
made our understanding of your message typed in all ASCII characters
better?

Your claim that "we've all moved on" so-to-speak, is only valid if there
was a NEED to move on.

If you can argue that point convincingly (since that's your defense here
in your last message that doesn't even have carriage returns or
line-feeds in it at appropriate places... thanks to your "advanced" mail
program, it would appear)... maybe I would be convinced and won over to
the dark side.

As a user of a very nice mail program that doesn't do any weird things
with my text without my knowledge, other than proper line-wrapping while
I type because I'm too lazy to remember what it was like to hit RETURN
when the little mechanical bell rang, I'm interested.  (I'm using Ximian
Evolution on a RedHat Linux 8.0 desktop environment, right now...)

Otherwise, how it comes across when someone posts in anything other than
good old boring ASCII to a public forum, is that you're requesting or
asking (some say forcing) those of us with perfectly good e-mail
programs to upgrade to perfectly BAD e-mail programs.  Programs that are
documented by other professionals to have had literally thousands of
security and scripting engine bugs, the resulting security holes, and
other nasty things -- all because you couldn't be bothered to hit the
check-box that says "send e-mail in plain-text format" built into it...
which you should already know ALL e-mail users can use and read properly
if you truly understand technology issues.

When was the last time you saw an e-mail virus spread by the use of a
Unix mail user agent or MUA (or e-mail client program if you prefer)?

It literally happens to hundreds of thousands of people a day on
"advanced software" Windows clients.  In fact, a whole industry has come
up to fight this "problem" that didn't exist before e-mail clients could
execute arbitrary code.

I have personally NEVER seen this so-called "advanced feature" EVER
exploited for a GOOD use yet.  Has anyone reading along ever run any
software inside an e-mail client that did something useful that ActiveX
or any of the other "automatic virus distribution system" hooks (as I
call them) allowed?  I'd be interested to hear about it.  Seriously.

These are just my thoughts on a pet peeve of mine.  ASCII works,
whatever happened to the KISS principal?  I'm a computer pro like many
on the list, and never bought into the whole "hey it must be better
because it's new" crap the industry spews forth...

E-mail and mailing lists worked for over a decade without MIME
"quoted-printable" format... just because it's in all of a particular
company's products doesn't mean a) it was a good idea, or b) that it's
better technology.  If that's your argument... defend it.  I want to
hear it.

MIME and HTML are definitely useful in many situations, but not public
mailing lists, in my opinion.

If you'd like to continue your argument and give a reason why it's so
much better from a technological standpoint to communicate your message
to us via a public forum in this format, fire away... I'm interested if
you really meant what you said about it being better technology.

If it was your knee-jerk reaction ("it *must* be better!  It's newer!"),
consider yourself scolded... you should know better than to be a
technology sheep, especially if you work in the industry.

If you don't work in the industry -- pull the wool off the eyes, my
friend, and stop drinking the Kool-Aid the Marketing Department hands
out regularly, and pick the right technology for the right situation --
just like in other areas of life.  You don't set your blender to wake
yourself up in the morning... (hmmm... maybe the Marketing folks could
find a way to sell that idea... must send them a note... boy would that
thing make a nice racket on the nightstand...).

ASCII is the way to go on public postings unless you know the audience
all has a specific mail program that can read whatever format-du-jour
your mail program defaults to... like at work where the IT Department
has probably standardized on Outlook and then spent $50K a year or more
out of money your company could use for other things in virus protection
tools... (sigh...)... and usually because the Exec's chose to use
Exchange/Outlook *for* the IT pros... not because they IT pros
necessarily wanted to use it.  (GRIN)

</E-mail Format RANT MODE OFF>

Nate

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2002\10\21@033618 by Russell McMahon

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[Was gonna make this Offlist, but, what the heck ...]

Nic (probably didn't really) say

   <DIV><BR></DIV>Hi there,<BR><BR>I am not sure what the fuss is about ,
is it
   because I use Microsoft Software or is it because I did not catch the
rule of
   plain text messages that is obscured somewhere in the unsaid rules you
guys
   have. <BR><BR>,

I didn't see the rest of this exchange but the following may be useful.

Olin is the self appointed keeper of propriety here (somewhat akin to the
role of the bald eagle on "The Muppet Show".) It's a terrible job to have
but someone's got to do it - if he does we don't have to and we can sit back
and criticise instead :-) . He is more often than not correct in the points
he raises but more often than not he also finds rather obnoxious ways to put
his opinions on such matters. He also happens to be a really knowledgeable
and helpful and all round useful guy and he fits inside the range of normal
on this list and we accept him as he is and love him and feel warm and fuzzy
about him (as we do about all the family here) while constantly also trying
to soften his more extreme behaviours and chip off some of the rough edges
:-)

The rules are actually written ones - although you are not liable to be shot
for transgressing them occasionally - just mauled by Olin :-). They are
listed somewhere on the PICList website probably under netiquette or
similar. The rules are there for a reason although how necessary the reason
is varies by person and circumstance. This lists serves around 2000 people
and has 100 +/- messages a day. That's a large amount of bandwidth. (I
personally am quite happy with HTML. I'm less happy about character sets
that don't behave at this end the way they did at the sender's end. I
personally also dislike efforts by M$oft to take over the world, but that's
a minor issue.)  - but there is a wide range of software in use here by
people with many operating systems, many different means of connection
(cable/dialup, faaaast/56k/slower/much slower / much much ...). Some people
have strict limits on the amount of email they are allowed to accumulate in
their mailboxes. Some people are unable (or unwilling) to avail themselves
of M$oft's largess, free browsers and dearer and dearer O/Ss. If you are one
of the people who have a non HTML browser on a non M$oft O/s, with a dial up
very very slow connection and a minimal mailbox allotment then the PICList
could be one of the most resource expensive lists you could subscribe to.
HTML alone makes a factor of two difference at least and sometimes many
times that. If the result of people sending HTML is not only extra bandwidth
but messages that read like this -

   <DIV>Subject: Re: [OT]: MPLAB IDE 5.7 (16-bit) : MPASM Relocatable
   code</DIV></DIV>
   <DIV><BR></DIV>Hi there,<BR><BR>I am not sure what the fuss is about ,
is it
   because I use Microsoft Software or is it because I did not catch the
rule of
   plain text messages that is obscured somewhere in the unsaid rules you
guys
   have. <BR><BR>If Olin thinks I was arrogant to sent in MIME format I am
sorry,
   cause I thought everybody keeps up with technology and does not stay in
the days
   we worked in DOS. But in anycase thanks for the answer at least someone
answered
   me.<BR><BR><BR>Regards<BR><BR>Nic Scheepers<BR><BR>--<BR><A

then you may be able to understand their annoyance.

Plain text IS the international mailing list standard that we can be certain
that (almost) everyone can handle. (Those with Baudot teleprinters are out
of luck).

Apart from that, keeping up with the latest technology is something many of
the people here do like to do but in their chosen areas. Being forced to do
it in unnecessary areas, as M$oft would like them to, tends to be resisted
by a number of the free spirited souls here.

       <:-)>

       <STRONG> Russell McMahon </STRONG>

       </:-)>

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2002\10\21@043953 by c Scheepers

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Geez,

I am feeling so dirty for making a mistake like that. I am very new to this and did not realise first  of all that MIME was on when I sent this e-mail, and as you saw I changed it to text as soon as I got the mail from Olin.
Please forgive me to be a asshole and get over with it.
By the way I use Linux and windows depending on the job I am doing. No need to kill MSoft for doing a brilliant job in certain areas and lacking in others, that is when I use Linux.

:-)

{Original Message removed}

2002\10\21@050411 by James Caska

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Flaming really is one of the more unprofessional aspects to this list. I
think it really discourages people from contributing. Sure point out when
something is not done the way the list would prefer but strong flaming? Who
does that benefit?

James

{Original Message removed}

2002\10\21@052522 by Roman Black

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Nic Scheepers wrote:
>
> I am feeling so dirty for making a mistake like that.
> I am very new to this and did not realise first  of all
> that MIME was on when I sent this e-mail, and as you
> saw I changed it to text as soon as I got the mail from Olin.

Hi Nic, first, WELCOME to the list! :o)
Sorry that your first posts here have met with
criticism of your actions. We ALL make mistakes,
I try to make them daily. ;o)

> Please forgive me to be a asshole and get over with it.

I don't think anyone believes you are an asshole.

Plain text is *best* for a plain text mailing list.
If I could make one more suggestion, it would be to
ask if you can use line wrapping or carriage breaks
so we don't have to scroll to the right to read your
text lines that are (still) 3 pages wide on my browser.
To quote your paragraphs here I had to manually insert
cariage breaks and add > signs in front of each line,
which is a pain and may stop some people bothering to
reply to your posts. :o)

> No need to kill MSoft for doing a brilliant
> job in certain areas and lacking in others,

Ha ha! <joke> I think there are MANY needs to kill M$!

M$ doing a *brilliant* job in these areas:
* criminally destroying competition
* forcing people to buy their products
* forcing new PCs to be sold with windows installed
* fooling most of the population
* making mega bucks

M$ doing a *lousy* job in these areas:
* software

;o)
-Roman

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2002\10\21@060713 by Mike Singer

picon face
Nic Scheepers wrote:
> Geez,
> I am feeling so dirty for making a mistake like that.
> I am very new to this and did not realise first of all
> that MIME was on when I sent this e-mail, and as
> you saw I changed it to text as soon as I got the
> mail from Olin.
>
> Please forgive me to be a asshole and get over with it.
>
> By the way I use Linux and windows depending on
> the job I am doing. No need to kill MSoft for doing
> a brilliant job in certain areas and lacking in others,
> that is when I use Linux.

 Nic,
Do not "feel so dirty". Olin loves to "olinize" slightly
new list members. This is the way he is. He is a great
man and he is more then smart  enough to understand
that there is no sense to teach every new member
not to use " quoted-printable". He was told that some
mailers, Outlook 2002 for example, do not have option
to choose "Content-Transfer-Encoding:" with some
charsets. Have look at my message:
[PIC]: Quoted printable encoding (Was: Frequency
measurement)
It takes only few seconds to edit manually  "quoted-
printable" message under his Outlook Express, much
less the he spent complaining of it.
Take his complains as advanced jokes and keep on
smiling.
By the way, your reply and this message are also in
quoted-printable encoding uncomfortable to his OE.

Mike.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------
Knowledge Base Articles
OL2002: How Outlook Applies Encoding to Plain Text Messages
Q278134
------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------
The information in this article applies to:
Microsoft Outlook 2002
------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------
IMPORTANT: This article contains information about editing the registry.
Before you edit the registry, make sure you understand how to restore it
if a problem occurs. For information about how to do this, view the
"Restoring the Registry" Help topic in Regedit.exe or the "Restoring a
Registry Key" Help topic in Regedt32.exe.

SUMMARY
This article describes the logic that Outlook 2002 uses to determine
what type of encoding to apply to plain text message bodies that are
sent to the Internet (among the Base 64, Quoted-Printable, and No
Encoding options).

MORE INFORMATION

Background
Microsoft Outlook 2000 configured for Internet Mail Only (IMO) provides
you with an option to choose which encoding format to apply to all
messages that are sent to the Internet. In Outlook 2000 configured for
Corporate or Workgroup (CW), you do not have such an option, and the
transport chooses which encoding to use. Each language version of
Microsoft Office 2000 has a different default setting for situations in
which Outlook can control the encoding (for example, when Exchange is
not the server). In the English-language version of Office 2000, the
default is set to not encode the text at all because English text does
not contain 8-bit characters. However, in the Japanese-language version,
the default is set to encode by using Base 64 encoding because Japanese
text closely resembles binary data, and the most compact encoding for
binary data is Base 64.

Outlook 2002 does not expose the encoding choice as an option. If you
use Exchange, the information store uses its own logic to determine
encoding and ignores any setting that you might set in Outlook.
Encode Intelligently
Outlook 2002 encodes each plain text body part for which Outlook creates
Multipurpose Internet Mail Extensions (MIME) by using the same algorithm
that Exchange servers use to send plain text to the Internet. In
general, if 25 percent or more of the message is comprised of 8-bit
characters, Outlook uses Base 64 encoding, otherwise Outlook uses
Quoted-Printable encoding.

For additional information about encoding issues with Exchange servers,
click the article number below to view the article in the Microsoft
Knowledge Base:
Q184718 XADM: Text Attachments Modified for Internet Mail
Overriding Encoding Type with a Registry Key
Under certain circumstances, you can use a registry setting to force the
encoding type. Only advanced users who need to force the encoding type
should use this setting.

Whether or not Outlook honors this registry setting depends on what
software creates MIME on the user's behalf; when Outlook uses Exchange
to send the message, Outlook does not honor this registry setting.

WARNING: Using Registry Editor incorrectly can cause serious problems
that may require you to reinstall your operating system. Microsoft
cannot guarantee that problems resulting from the incorrect use of
Registry Editor can be solved. Use Registry Editor at your own risk.

For information about how to edit the registry, view the "Changing Keys
and Values" Help topic in Registry Editor (Regedit.exe) or the "Add and
Delete Information in the Registry" and "Edit Registry Data" Help topics
in Regedt32.exe. Note that you should back up the registry before you
edit it. If you are running Windows NT or Windows 2000, you should also
update your Emergency Repair Disk (ERD).

If the following registry key exists and contains a DWORD value that is
named InternetMailTextEncoding, and that value contains data of 0, 1, 2,
or 3, Outlook honors this registry setting:
HEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Microsoft\Office\10.0\Outlook\Options\Mail
Outlook acts based on this registry key and value pair as follows:
If the value data is 0, Outlook is set to Encode Intelligently.

If the value data is 1, Outlook uses Quoted-Printable encoding.

If the value data is 2, Outlook uses Base 64 encoding.

If the value data is 3, Outlook uses no encoding and leaves 8-bit
characters as 8-bit characters.

Additional query words:

Keywords :
Issue type : kbinfo
Technology : kbOutlookSearch kbOutlook2002Search kbZNotKeyword3

Last Reviewed: May 26, 2001

------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------
Send feedback to Microsoft
C 2002 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

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2002\10\21@063238 by cdb

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Good Grief,

There I was hoping to have just a slight humorous and witty dig at
the Olin attack on the poor man,- and one person seemed to take me
seriously and a thread follows.

I suspect that Olin doesn't subscribe to OT so it's all largely
academic.

Don't ever let me in the diplomatic service Armaggedon would surely
follow.

Luckily my email client doesn't seem to care what the format is -
it's all readable.

colin
--
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2002\10\21@064311 by James Caska

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Actually, I think Olin can handle himself... I was concerned for the other
chap.

JC

-----Original Message-----
From: pic microcontroller discussion list
[.....PICLISTKILLspamspam.....MITVMA.MIT.EDU]On Behalf Of cdb
Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 6:32 AM
To: EraseMEPICLISTspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTMITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [OT]: MPLAB IDE 5.7 (16-bit) : MPASM Relocatable code


Good Grief,

There I was hoping to have just a slight humorous and witty dig at
the Olin attack on the poor man,- and one person seemed to take me
seriously and a thread follows.

I suspect that Olin doesn't subscribe to OT so it's all largely
academic.

Don't ever let me in the diplomatic service Armaggedon would surely
follow.

Luckily my email client doesn't seem to care what the format is -
it's all readable.

colin
--
cdb, bodgy1spamspam_OUToptusnet.com.au on 21/10/2002

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2002\10\21@065141 by c Scheepers

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Hi there,

Please bare with me , I am sorting out the encoding problem as soon as I can. But do not worry about me leaving cause I was rapped on the fingers a bit. I am a big guy and can take it with a smile. I am getting much too much valuable information here too just now turn my back on you guys for a small little thing:-)

I am preparing to do my first submission of a piece of code which I am very proud of and which I could not have easily done without piclist.
So please have a laugh with me about this!



{Original Message removed}

2002\10\21@070010 by James Caska

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Ok Good, so all is well (probably always was) :-)

-----Original Message-----
From: pic microcontroller discussion list
[@spam@PICLISTKILLspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU]On Behalf Of Nic Scheepers
Sent: Monday, October 21, 2002 8:58 PM
To: KILLspamPICLISTKILLspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [OT]: MPLAB IDE 5.7 (16-bit) : MPASM Relocatable code


Hi there,

Please bare with me , I am sorting out the encoding problem as soon as I
can. But do not worry about me leaving cause I was rapped on the fingers a
bit. I am a big guy and can take it with a smile. I am getting much too much
valuable information here too just now turn my back on you guys for a small
little thing:-)

I am preparing to do my first submission of a piece of code which I am very
proud of and which I could not have easily done without piclist.

So please have a laugh with me about this!



-----Original Message-----
From: James Caska [RemoveMEcaskaTakeThisOuTspamVIRTUALBREADBOARD.COM]
Sent: 21 October 2002 12:44
To: spamBeGonePICLISTspamBeGonespamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [OT]: MPLAB IDE 5.7 (16-bit) : MPASM Relocatable code


Actually, I think Olin can handle himself... I was concerned for the other
chap.

JC

-----Original Message-----
From: pic microcontroller discussion list
[TakeThisOuTPICLISTEraseMEspamspam_OUTMITVMA.MIT.EDU]On Behalf Of cdb
Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 6:32 AM
To: RemoveMEPICLISTspamTakeThisOuTMITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [OT]: MPLAB IDE 5.7 (16-bit) : MPASM Relocatable code


Good Grief,

There I was hoping to have just a slight humorous and witty dig at
the Olin attack on the poor man,- and one person seemed to take me
seriously and a thread follows.

I suspect that Olin doesn't subscribe to OT so it's all largely
academic.

Don't ever let me in the diplomatic service Armaggedon would surely
follow.

Luckily my email client doesn't seem to care what the format is -
it's all readable.

colin
--
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2002\10\21@103108 by Herbert Graf

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> Ha ha! <joke> I think there are MANY needs to kill M$!
>
> M$ doing a *brilliant* job in these areas:
> * criminally destroying competition
> * forcing people to buy their products
> * forcing new PCs to be sold with windows installed
> * fooling most of the population
> * making mega bucks
>
> M$ doing a *lousy* job in these areas:
> * software

       Hehe, reminds me of a few years ago when Mickeysoft visited my university
during "Career Days".
       I was standing at the ATI booth (which was very crowded), the Mickeysoft
booth was right beside (and also had a large crowd). All of a sudden this
cheery lady from Mickeysoft walked up to me, introduced herself and asked
whether I was interested in pursuing a position at Mickeysoft. Not being in
the best of moods I answered honestly with one word: nope. The look on her
face was just hilarious, it was like she just realized I was an evil sinner
and God was going to strike me down. She mumbled something and walked away.
Because of that I didn't get a light making, sound making bouncing ball from
their booth, what a loss... :) TTYL

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2002\10\21@123420 by Dale Botkin

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face
On Mon, 21 Oct 2002, Nic Scheepers wrote:

> Please bare with me , I am sorting out the encoding problem as soon as I can. But do not worry about me leaving cause I was rapped on the fingers a bit. I am a big guy and can take it with a smile. I am getting much too much valuable information here too just now turn my back on you guys for a small little thing:-)

Now, about that line wrap thing...  8-)

Dale

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2002\10\21@130048 by rey R Fischman

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Show this to your plastic surgeon:

The treatment isn't "mine" it was described by a dermatologist about 2 years
ago and is in the medical literature

The treatment consists of triamcinolone 40mg/cc and fluorouracil 50mg/cc
mixed 50/50 and injected
into the superficial layers of keloid--I personally use triamcinolone 80/cc
(made by decanting 5cc of clear fluid from a 10 cc bottle of 40 mg/cc) -- it
works better, I have not had any complications from this but it doesn't mean
you won't.  I limit each treatment to 2cc total per month maximum for fear
of systemic effects from meds.

wait 2-3 months for effect before reinjecting into any areas that still
aren't flat--full effect takes 3 months (steroid effect for first month, 5fu
effect starts at 2 months).

I have been using it for two years
It seems all keloids respond, problem is that parts of them will
start to get red and itchy every 3-6 months and require injections to
prevent their regrowth

It will depigment black skin

Jeffrey R Fischman, MD
{Original Message removed}

2002\10\22@004911 by Jinx

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> for transgressing them occasionally - just mauled by Olin :-)

Well, you can't spell Olin without "lion" ;-)

Spare a thought for my nephew though - using my favourite anagram
site (which I didn't need for olin = lion btw, I took a stab at it) for a
crossword

http://www.wordsmith.org/anagram/index.html

I discovered that my 14yo nephew, Cameron Pepperell, has "call
me porn peeper" for an anagram, of which he is highly delighted
and wants on a business card. Mother is not impressed but boys
will be boys

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