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'[OT]: M$; former [PIC]: Serial Communication'
2000\10\06@020310 by Dr. Imre Bartfai

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As another characterizing part to the puzzle:

they (M$ & co) found a very friendly way to advertise their products:
they made print a full-page ad in one of respected Hungarian economy
journal (like Times or so here) with the following text:

"Illegal use of software can be sentenced up to 8 years of jail. Choose
CLEAN software!
BSA"

Nice, eh?!

Regards,
Imre


On Thu, 5 Oct 2000, Dan Michaels wrote:

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2000\10\06@035837 by Jilles Oldenbeuving

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Here (Netherlands), M$ started even radio-spots to proclaim the same
thing!!!!!
(As if we don't have enough advertiseing allready)


Regards,

Jilles Oldenbeuving
spam_OUTjillesTakeThisOuTspamrendo.dekooi.nl
-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: Dr. Imre Bartfai <.....rootKILLspamspam@spam@PROF.PMMF.HU>
Aan: PICLISTspamKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU <.....PICLISTKILLspamspam.....MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Datum: vrijdag 6 oktober 2000 8:03
Onderwerp: Re: [OT]: M$; former [PIC]: Serial Communication


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2000\10\06@051231 by staff

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Jilles Oldenbeuving wrote:
>
> Here (Netherlands), M$ started even radio-spots to proclaim the same
> thing!!!!!
> (As if we don't have enough advertiseing allready)
>
> Regards,
>
> Jilles Oldenbeuving


Funny, seems that if you have a decent product at a decent price you
don't worry too much about people copying it. However, if you have
a product at a too-high price and use force to try to make people
buy it it probably indicates something. Maybe people are NOT getting
value for money??
-Roman

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2000\10\06@051646 by Martin Hill

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I disagree, I think a lot of people will take something for free rather
than paying, irrespective of price or how good it is.

Martin

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2000\10\06@052724 by staff

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But it's all relative. For instance, I'm still using
win '95, but if I thought Microsoft had produced a decent
read "faster" performing product I would buy the latest version.
As it is, the version I have does everything I need, I still
use some real powerful dos apps for a lot of stuff anyway.
Microsoft should be embarassed that a 10 yr old dos app
performs X times faster AND more reliably. What are we paying
them for anyway? So the new version might be slightly prettier but
makes everything run worse? Brilliant operating system. So they
won't be getting my money anytime soon but Linux(etc) sure might.
-Roman

Martin Hill wrote:
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2000\10\06@055044 by Andy Howard

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: From: "Roman Black" <EraseMEfastvidspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTEZY.NET.AU>

> Jilles Oldenbeuving wrote:
> > Here (Netherlands), M$ started even radio-spots to proclaim the same
> > thing!!!!!
> > (As if we don't have enough advertiseing allready)

> Funny, seems that if you have a decent product at a decent price you
> don't worry too much about people copying it. However, if you have
> a product at a too-high price and use force to try to make people
> buy it it probably indicates something. Maybe people are NOT getting
> value for money??

I recall a speech Bill Gates gave a while back about software piracy in
China.
In the speech he said that 90+ percent (I forget the exact figure) of
application software at the time was pirated copies, but the important thing
was to make sure that it was copies of Microsoft applications and they could
work out how to charge sometime over the next decade.

He always did look a bit further ahead than most.



.

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2000\10\06@065306 by Arthur Brown

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Geid voish maarliagh as bee eh onneragh dy-liooar
(Manx saying translation)
Steal from a thief and it will be honest enough.

regards Art

{Original Message removed}

2000\10\06@065928 by Dr. Imre Bartfai

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I have heard often enough as argument for Microsoft and against Linux,
that something for free could not be good. If people would want to have
all for free, why is it possible to sell (e. g.) Office 2000
vs.StarOffice, which is free!

Imre


On Fri, 6 Oct 2000, Martin Hill wrote:

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2000\10\06@083740 by Dale Botkin

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On Fri, 6 Oct 2000, Dr. Imre Bartfai wrote:

> I have heard often enough as argument for Microsoft and against Linux,
> that something for free could not be good. If people would want to have
> all for free, why is it possible to sell (e. g.) Office 2000
> vs.StarOffice, which is free!

Ummm...  because I have enough time to go buy and install M$ Office while
waiting for StarOffice to load?

8-)  Just a guess...

Dale
---
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discoveries, is not "Eureka!" (I found it!) but "That's funny ..."
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2000\10\06@090605 by Alan B. Pearce

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>Ummm...  because I have enough time to go buy and install M$ Office while
>waiting for StarOffice to load?

Do you not have magazines with it free on the front cover CD??? Perhaps you are too busy working to support the wife and 3 mistresses to go looking at magazines!! {;-))

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2000\10\06@104647 by Dan Michaels

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Andy Howard wrote:
>
>I recall a speech Bill Gates gave a while back about software piracy in
>China.
>In the speech he said that 90+ percent (I forget the exact figure) of
>application software at the time was pirated copies, but the important thing
>was to make sure that it was copies of Microsoft applications and they could
>work out how to charge sometime over the next decade.
>
>He always did look a bit further ahead than most.
>


Hey, Andy, you have neatly tied together the 2 halves of one of
my favorite Gill Bates jokes ---

"To know the road ahead, ask those coming back" - ancient Chinese
proverb

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2000\10\06@112136 by Severson, Rob

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> He always did look a bit further ahead than most.

One word: 640k

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2000\10\06@114532 by David VanHorn

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At 10:31 AM 10/6/00 -0500, you wrote:
> > He always did look a bit further ahead than most.
>
>One word: 640k

Two serial ports.

Eight interrupts.

Ever notice there's never anyone following him on "the road ahead"?

IMHO, the book cover needs a sticker applied, of a dashboard and hood.

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2000\10\06@115546 by Dan Michaels

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Andy Howard wrote:
>
>I recall a speech Bill Gates gave a while back about software piracy in
>China.
>In the speech he said that 90+ percent (I forget the exact figure) of
>application software at the time was pirated copies, but the important thing
>was to make sure that it was copies of Microsoft applications and they could
>work out how to charge sometime over the next decade.
>
>He always did look a bit further ahead than most.
>


Oh, yeah, here's the other half of my favorite Gill Bates joke ---

"83 Reasons Why Gill Bate's Reign is Over", November 1998 Wired mag

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/6.12/microsoft.html

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2000\10\06@115752 by Bond Peter S-petbond1

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> Ever notice there's never anyone following him on "the road ahead"?

I always took his absence on the back cover to mean that the road ahead went
on with or without him...

> IMHO, the book cover needs a sticker applied, of a dashboard and hood.

A sticker?  Or do you mean a patch?

Peter

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2000\10\06@123946 by Dan Michaels

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Peter Bond wrote:
>> Ever notice there's never anyone following him on "the road ahead"?
>
>I always took his absence on the back cover to mean that the road ahead went
>on with or without him...
>

I always took the fact that "the road ahead" on the covers
appeared to go off into a vacant horizon line, rather than
towards some futuristic metaverse, as having some significance.
Must be an inside joke.

[BTW, I bought my copy of the book - version 1 that left out
all the really good stuff - heavily discounted to "$1.00" at
Waldenbooks. Gotta be a classic sell on eBay oneday - bids???].

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2000\10\06@135159 by Andy Howard

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Severson, Rob" <seversonspamspam_OUTJGED.COM>
To: <@spam@PICLISTKILLspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Friday, October 06, 2000 4:31 PM
Subject: Re: [OT]: M$; former [PIC]: Serial Communication


> > He always did look a bit further ahead than most.
>
> One word: 640k

Nah, that's not one word, that's 327,680 words.

:>



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2000\10\06@141234 by Severson, Rob

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{Quote hidden}

VERY GOOD, Andy! ;-)

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2000\10\06@150043 by Thomas McGahee

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Actually, It would not be a "patch", but a full-blown
upgrade with a price tag to match, and a new name:
"The Road Ahead: M$ 2000" and for those who already own
the original book, "The Road Ahead: M$ 2000 Upgrade Version."

The upgrade version would come with just the cover overlay
and no instructions on how to apply the upgrade. But there
*would* be a number you could call to get phone support... at
a price, of course. Each upgrade cover overlay would come with
a certificate of authenticity and a mail-in registration card.

Fr. Tom McGahee

{Original Message removed}

2000\10\06@152752 by Severson, Rob

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> The upgrade version would come with just the cover overlay
> and no instructions on how to apply the upgrade. But there
> *would* be a number you could call to get phone support... at
> a price, of course. Each upgrade cover overlay would come with
> a certificate of authenticity and a mail-in registration card.

I hate to tell you this, but all of the previous text would not be
compatible with the cover.

You will need to replace the cover on the book at least once per day.

Also you will need to increase your brain mass by several pounds/kilograms,
but you will read the book slower.

And you will become prone to peeing in garage drains.  ;-)

-Rob

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2000\10\06@162128 by Dan Michaels

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Tom McGahee wrote:
>Actually, It would not be a "patch", but a full-blown
>upgrade with a price tag to match, and a new name:
>"The Road Ahead: M$ 2000" and for those who already own
>the original book, "The Road Ahead: M$ 2000 Upgrade Version."
>
>The upgrade version would come with just the cover overlay
>and no instructions on how to apply the upgrade. But there
>*would* be a number you could call to get phone support... at
>a price, of course. Each upgrade cover overlay would come with
>a certificate of authenticity and a mail-in registration card.
>

How long is the average wait on hold for call-in support?

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2000\10\06@162748 by Thomas McGahee

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Well, Rob, you are the expert in such things, so I will defer
to your increased brain mass in this matter.

Fr. Tom McGahee

{Original Message removed}

2000\10\06@163416 by Thomas McGahee

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The time on hold depends on whether or not you live in Redmond.
Your position in the phone wait line is calculated based on
the reciprocal of the inverse square root of the distance between you and them.
The longer the long distance call, the longer the wait. This is
calculated dynamically in surreal time, so that as soon as anyone
closer makes a phone call, *you* get bumped to the end of the line.

Fr. Tom McGahee

{Original Message removed}

2000\10\06@165250 by jamesnewton

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You guys do realize that all the hard working engineers on the list are
scrambling to turn off the [OT]: channel right now don't you?

<GRIN>

I love treads that manage to combine Microsoft and peeing in storm
drains....

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2000\10\06@170910 by Dale Botkin

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On Fri, 6 Oct 2000, Alan B. Pearce wrote:

> >Ummm...  because I have enough time to go buy and install M$ Office while
> >waiting for StarOffice to load?
>
> Do you not have magazines with it free on the front cover CD???
> Perhaps you are too busy working to support the wife and 3 mistresses
> to go looking at magazines!! {;-))

That's one wife, five kids...  I have StarOffice on several machines, but
it's pathetically slow.  On my dual-processor Ultra2 it takes several
times as long to load SO as it does to load Word or whatever on a P-II/500
laptop.

Another year or two and maybe it will be as good...  for the moment, I'll
stick with Office on the NT machine just because it's there, it's paid
for, and it's faster.

Dale
---
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discoveries, is not "Eureka!" (I found it!) but "That's funny ..."
               -- Isaac Asimov

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2000\10\06@172619 by Dale Botkin

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On Fri, 6 Oct 2000, David VanHorn wrote:

> At 10:31 AM 10/6/00 -0500, you wrote:
> > > He always did look a bit further ahead than most.
> >
> >One word: 640k
>
> Two serial ports.
>
> Eight interrupts.

To be fair, not one of these items is a fault of the OS, nor were any of
them Bill's idea.  These were all detils of the original IBM design for
the PC.  In fact, the original Rev.1 design had a theoretical 640K
physical address limit, but I don't think it could actually accomodate
more than 512K (which was an unthinkable amount of memory then).

Neither Gates nor Microsloth had anything to do with the hardware design
of the PC, he just ported the OS to it.  I'm not a fan of Bill or M$, but
I don't try to blame natural disasters or the PC hardware platform on
them, either.

You have to remember historical perspective, too.  In '84 my boss bought a
machine with *TWO* floppy drives, 128K and graphics on a green monitor.
Cost him about $2500 with a printer and DOS 1.0, and it was awesome, way
ahead of anything else you could buy -- which is to say, Apple ][+ or 64K
CP/M machines.  Besides -- you're bitching about only two serial ports and
640K of RAM on the PICLIST???  You got a bigger PIC than that??  8-)

Dale
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discoveries, is not "Eureka!" (I found it!) but "That's funny ..."
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2000\10\06@173009 by Severson, Rob

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Are "hard working engineers" and "drain pee'ers" necessarily exclusive?



(I'll stop now.)

> {Original Message removed}

2000\10\06@180228 by Bob Ammerman

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----- Original Message -----
From: David VanHorn <dvanhornEraseMEspam.....CEDAR.NET>
To: <EraseMEPICLISTspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Friday, October 06, 2000 11:44 AM
Subject: Re: [OT]: M$; former [PIC]: Serial Communication


> At 10:31 AM 10/6/00 -0500, you wrote:
> > > He always did look a bit further ahead than most.
> >
> >One word: 640k
>
> Two serial ports.
>
> Eight interrupts.

Don't blame Bill for these. They were the results of IBM's engineering, and
were quite reasonable at the time.

Remember, there were many 'personal' computers about that time - the PC is
the one that survived. Avoiding the above limitations would have made it
more expensive, and thus less likely to succeed. We'd all be dealing, for
example, with Zenith Z100 clones, which had similar limitations.

Bob Ammerman
RAm Systems
(contract development of high performance, high function, low-level
software)

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2000\10\06@180435 by David VanHorn

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>
>To be fair, not one of these items is a fault of the OS, nor were any of
>them Bill's idea.  These were all detils of the original IBM design for
>the PC.  In fact, the original Rev.1 design had a theoretical 640K
>physical address limit, but I don't think it could actually accomodate
>more than 512K (which was an unthinkable amount of memory then).

I guess I implied that it was (which it wasn't), but I would argue that it
is now.

Who else could have forced the move to a platform that actually works?


>You have to remember historical perspective, too.  In '84 my boss bought a
>machine with *TWO* floppy drives, 128K and graphics on a green monitor.
>Cost him about $2500 with a printer and DOS 1.0, and it was awesome, way
>ahead of anything else you could buy -- which is to say, Apple ][+ or 64K
>CP/M machines.  Besides -- you're bitching about only two serial ports and
>640K of RAM on the PICLIST???  You got a bigger PIC than that??  8-)

<soapbox>

At that time, I had a dual system Z-80 machine running ZCPR, with a pair of
serial ports on one machine, and four on the other. Both machines
interfaced to a single HD through a multi-initiator SCSI BIOS that took up
all of 8k.
(It's not called Small Computer System Interface for nothing..)

This is what I ran my BBS on, while I was also using the machine
(multi-tasking, multi-user)

BTW, multi-initiator is part of the ANSI spec for SCSI, and you can't buy a
SCSI implementation for the PC that supports it at any price.  There's also
the original W95 implementation of SCSI, where microsoft just decided to
not implement logical unit numbers.. (Folks, if it's an ANSI spec, then
it's not a Chinese menu. You implement it all, or you can't claim to adhere
to the spec. IMHO, every PC implementation of SCSI I've ever seen,
including adaptec, is basically "some wierd thing we thought up that sort
of acts like SCSI".)

</soapbox>

I've got an AVR supporting eight serial ports full duplex at 4800 with
settable hardware or Xon/Xoff handshaking, plus it's uart at 115200, while
it does 7200 vector math operations every second.. No external ram.

Roughly 200,000 ints/sec, and it's not even breathing hard yet.

I've done 300k in another system, but it wasn't so complicated.

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2000\10\06@231046 by Harold Hallikainen

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On Fri, 6 Oct 2000 10:31:44 -0500 "Severson, Rob" <RemoveMEseversonEraseMEspamEraseMEJGED.COM>
writes:
> > He always did look a bit further ahead than most.
>
> One word: 640k
>
>

       Since the processors of that time only supported a 1 megabyte memory map
and they had to draw the RAM/ROM line somewhere, is not 640K a reasonable
place to put it?

Harold



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2000\10\07@002501 by David VanHorn

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>
>         Since the processors of that time only supported a 1 megabyte
> memory map
>and they had to draw the RAM/ROM line somewhere, is not 640K a reasonable
>place to put it?

Sure, but structuring the whole system around the idea that this limit
would never change was pretty silly.

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2000\10\07@023443 by Chris Carr

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> BTW, multi-initiator is part of the ANSI spec for SCSI, and you can't buy
a
> SCSI implementation for the PC that supports it at any price.  There's
also
> the original W95 implementation of SCSI, where microsoft just decided to
> not implement logical unit numbers.. (Folks, if it's an ANSI spec, then
> it's not a Chinese menu. You implement it all, or you can't claim to
adhere
> to the spec. IMHO, every PC implementation of SCSI I've ever seen,
> including adaptec, is basically "some wierd thing we thought up that sort
> of acts like SCSI".)
>
Another example of a standard M$ practice (or should that be M$ Standards
practice).
1. Announce you are going to conform to a Standard
2. Partially implement the Standard
3. Add "Enhancements" to the Standard
4. Announce that the M$ Standard has been adopted by so many people that it
is now The Standard.

Chris

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2000\10\07@080843 by Bob Ammerman

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----- Original Message -----
From: David VanHorn <EraseMEdvanhornspamspamspamBeGoneCEDAR.NET>
To: <RemoveMEPICLISTKILLspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2000 12:01 AM
Subject: Re: [OT]: M$; former [PIC]: Serial Communication


> >
> >         Since the processors of that time only supported a 1 megabyte
> > memory map
> >and they had to draw the RAM/ROM line somewhere, is not 640K a reasonable
> >place to put it?
>
> Sure, but structuring the whole system around the idea that this limit
> would never change was pretty silly.

Actually, the 'whole system' wasn't structured that way.

In fact, there were products that would extend the _contiguous_ usable
memory beyond the 640K line, and 'well-behaved' programs would work just
fine with it. V Communications, the maker of sourcer, created one, IIRC.

The real problem that prevented programs from easily moving up to 286
protected mode was segment register arithmetic and similar things. OTOH,
M$'s own 16-bit Fortran, for example, managed to be _very_ portable to
16-bit protected mode by dealing with segment arithmetic in an intelligent
manner.

Bob Ammerman
RAm Systems
(contract development of high performance, high function, low-level
software)

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2000\10\07@122621 by David VanHorn

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>
>Another example of a standard M$ practice (or should that be M$ Standards
>practice).
>1. Announce you are going to conform to a Standard
>2. Partially implement the Standard
>3. Add "Enhancements" to the Standard
>4. Announce that the M$ Standard has been adopted by so many people that it
>is now The Standard.

Especially if the "enhancements" are only useful with other MS software.

Anyone remember how we were all going to be using java in microcontrollers?

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2000\10\07@155017 by Bob Ammerman

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----- Original Message -----
From: David VanHorn <KILLspamdvanhornspamBeGonespamCEDAR.NET>
To: <EraseMEPICLISTspamEraseMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2000 12:25 PM
Subject: Re: [OT]: M$; former [PIC]: Serial Communication


> >
> >Another example of a standard M$ practice (or should that be M$ Standards
> >practice).
> >1. Announce you are going to conform to a Standard
> >2. Partially implement the Standard
> >3. Add "Enhancements" to the Standard
> >4. Announce that the M$ Standard has been adopted by so many people that
it
> >is now The Standard.
>
> Especially if the "enhancements" are only useful with other MS software.
>

And double especially if the "enchancements" result in non-interoperability
with non-MS software.

Bob Ammerman
RAm Systems
(contract development of high performance, high function, low-level
software)

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2000\10\08@013949 by Blars Blarson

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face
In article <spamBeGonePine.LNX.4.10.10010061256320.826-100000spamKILLspamprof.pmmf.hu> you write:
>I have heard often enough as argument for Microsoft and against Linux,
>that something for free could not be good. If people would want to have
>all for free, why is it possible to sell (e. g.) Office 2000
>vs.StarOffice, which is free!

In general, I much prefer Linux and Unix to anything microsoft puts
out.  However, in this particular case, Word is closer to a usable
product than the Star Office WYSHSVRTWYG* word processor.  Note that
Star Office is not open source, so the user base can't fix the
problems.


* What you see has some vague relation to what you get
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2000\10\08@023008 by Harold Hallikainen

picon face
       Speaking of Star Office, can anyone suggest a good user manual on it?
I'm tired of stumbling around...

Harold

On Sat, 7 Oct 2000 22:37:30 -0700 Blars Blarson <TakeThisOuTblarsonKILLspamspamspamBLARS.ORG>
writes:
{Quote hidden}

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2000\10\08@171020 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
>Anyone remember how we were all going to be using java in
>microcontrollers?

If you use some P-code byte code threaded system (like a Stamp ?) then you
can pretend that you are using Java. Just don't ever call it Forth or
someone will sue you.

Peter

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2000\10\08@171811 by Dan Michaels

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Peter Peres wrote:
>>Anyone remember how we were all going to be using java in
>>microcontrollers?
>
>If you use some P-code byte code threaded system (like a Stamp ?) then you
>can pretend that you are using Java. Just don't ever call it Forth or
>someone will sue you.
>


Naww, I think all those old Forth guys are long dead.

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2000\10\08@202421 by Chris Carr

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> Peter Peres wrote:
> >>Anyone remember how we were all going to be using java in
> >>microcontrollers?
> >
> >If you use some P-code byte code threaded system (like a Stamp ?) then
you
> >can pretend that you are using Java. Just don't ever call it Forth or
> >someone will sue you.
> >
>
Dan Michaels wrote
>
> Naww, I think all those old Forth guys are long dead.
>
So that accounts for my pale complection and feeling like death
warmed up when I wake up in front of the computers on a
morning. Here's me thinking it was the Alkaholic Bevradges from
the knight before.

Radqars
Chris

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2000\10\08@204325 by Bob Ammerman

picon face
----- Original Message -----
From: Dan Michaels <EraseMEoricomspam@spam@USWEST.NET>
To: <@spam@PICLISTspam_OUTspam.....MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2000 5:18 PM
Subject: Re: [OT]: M$; former [PIC]: Serial Communication


> Peter Peres wrote:
> >>Anyone remember how we were all going to be using java in
> >>microcontrollers?
> >
> >If you use some P-code byte code threaded system (like a Stamp ?) then
you
> >can pretend that you are using Java. Just don't ever call it Forth or
> >someone will sue you.
> >
>
>
> Naww, I think all those old Forth guys are long dead.

I'm not dead yet! (homage to Monty Python, of course)

Or perhaps, after Mark Twain: The reports of my demise are greatly
exaggerated.

Bob Ammerman
RAm Systems
(contract development of high performance, high function, low-level
software)

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>
>

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2000\10\09@060929 by Dr. Imre Bartfai

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face
Sun has announced the StarOffice 6.0 becomes GPL. BTW, I personally use
LyX only. But I'm also teacher and we teach SO, due to costs.

Regards,
Imre

On Sat, 7 Oct 2000, Blars Blarson wrote:

{Quote hidden}

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2000\10\09@113002 by Miguel Angel Heredia Moreno

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At 10:37 p.m. 07/10/00 -0700, you wrote:
>In article <.....Pine.LNX.4.10.10010061256320.826-100000STOPspamspam@spam@prof.pmmf.hu> you write:
> >I have heard often enough as argument for Microsoft and against Linux,
> >that something for free could not be good. If people would want to have
> >all for free, why is it possible to sell (e. g.) Office 2000
> >vs.StarOffice, which is free!
>
>In general, I much prefer Linux and Unix to anything microsoft puts
>out.  However, in this particular case, Word is closer to a usable
>product than the Star Office WYSHSVRTWYG* word processor.  Note that


Wao, thats a new one :)   What you see  HSVRT  what you get ?

Can anybody tell me whats those stand for ?


{Quote hidden}

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2000\10\09@125552 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>Can anybody tell me whats those stand for ?

that is why he had an asterisk to the bottom of his message. You repeated the explanation in your message.

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