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'[OT]: Is GP fabricating Global Warming evidentiary'
2002\08\22@011612 by Peter Crowcroft

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>Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 16:40:51 GMT
>From: cdb <spam_OUTbodgy1TakeThisOuTspamOPTUSNET.COM.AU>
>Subject: Re: [OT]: Is GP fabricating Global Warming evidentiary material?

>I am one of those not entirely convinced about the Global Warming
>argument,

1. Have you read the official Reports or are you going on newspaper reports
and gut feel and personal prejudices?

For the definitive Reports please go to

http://www.ipcc.ch/

I have spent several hours reading them and they brought me down off the
fence. Unfortunately until the seas actually do start to rise nothing will
be done. And by then it will be too late for some countries.


>Queensland - the only place I've lived where the houses are
>unbearably hot in the Summer and Colder than a certain allegedly
>rainy country of my homeland.

As an Australian it has always amazed me that they build completely
uninsulated houses which, as you say are freezing in winter and hot in
summer. It never fails to bring on arguments when I tell my family huddled
around the fire how the houses and built wrong. And no houses have an
alcove to remove muddy shoes like houses in much of Europe. So people walk
mud all thru the house which someone has to clean up. Here in Hong Kong we
remove our shoes at the doorway. Very civilized.



regards,

Peter Crowcroft
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2002\08\22@071238 by cdb

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I have just re-read what i wrote and realise I need to re-write what
I read!

It is not that I don't accept that mankind is contributing to Global
Warming it is just the ratio between natural and manmade.

The upshot however, is we have nothing to lose by minimising further
emissions.

Double glazing all round for hot countries and triple glazing for
cold for a start.

colin
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2002\08\22@102750 by Jim

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   "It is not that I don't accept that mankind
    is contributing to Global Warming it is
    just the ratio between natural and manmade."

We have been made victims of some VERY bad science.
I don't know why the "Chicken Little syndrome" has hit
us all - but it has.

I would rather cite semthing like this than the loosely
based premises most use in supporting claims of 'global
warming'.

(Of course, we are all free to believe anything we want,
even bad science and lies from those we think are acting
only in atruistic (sp?) roles.)


+ - + - + - + - + - + - + - + - + - + - + - + - + - + -

 Book pins climate change mostly on natural processes

LAWRENCE -- A new book on global climate change states that geological and
oceanic changes have had a larger impact on the world's climate than human
activity.

"The evidence shows that there are constant natural changes in the climate,
and in both directions, from warmer to cooler and from cooler to warmer"
said Lee Gerhard, a geologist at the Kansas Geological Survey based at the
University of Kansas and one of the editors of "Geological Perspectives of
Global Climate Change."


The book was published by the American Association of Petroleum Geologists.
Its editors include Gerhard and William Harrison, also a geologist at the
Kansas Geological Survey based at KU.

The causes behind these changes are more difficult to discern but many of
them are related to changes in earth's atmosphere and geology, according to
the book, a collection of 18 papers written primarily by earth scientists.
Some small-scale changes in climate are driven by factors such as volcanic
activity, solar storms, and ocean currents.

The authors state a much larger factor in climate change, over the millions
of years of geologic time, is the movement of the earth's land masses
through plate tectonics (known more popularly as "continental drift").
Finally, the largest impact may come from such influences as the earth's
distance from the sun or the amount of energy radiating from the sun.

"Human activities, such as increasing the amount of carbon dioxide and
methane in the atmosphere, have very little impact on climate," said
Gerhard. "These other natural processes influence climate far more, even
over human history. Other processes, such as volcanic eruptions, meteor
impacts, and other natural factors, are equally or more important than
humans.

http://www.ur.ku.edu/News/01N/JuneNews/June25/climate.html

RF Jim


{Original Message removed}

2002\08\22@124529 by Brendan Moran

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> I have just re-read what i wrote and realise I need to re-write
> what I read!
>
> It is not that I don't accept that mankind is contributing to
> Global Warming it is just the ratio between natural and manmade.
>
> The upshot however, is we have nothing to lose by minimising
> further emissions.
>
> Double glazing all round for hot countries and triple glazing for
> cold for a start.

That can potentially cause more trouble than it is worth.  It was
tried here (Vancouver, BC) and the result is the "Leaky Condo"
fiasco.  All the new condos were sealed and insulated completely.
The result being that they would never dry out.  Then the mold,
mildew and rot set it, which broke all the seals, and let the rain
pour in.

Sealing out nature is ok, as long as you're careful to let enough in.

- --Brendan

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2002\08\22@202134 by Peter L. Peres

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On Thu, 22 Aug 2002, cdb wrote:

>I have just re-read what i wrote and realise I need to re-write what
>I read!
>
>It is not that I don't accept that mankind is contributing to Global
>Warming it is just the ratio between natural and manmade.
>
>The upshot however, is we have nothing to lose by minimising further
>emissions.

Are you very rich ?

>Double glazing all round for hot countries and triple glazing for
>cold for a start.

The other way round. Heating is more efficient than cooling.

Peter

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2002\08\22@202155 by Peter L. Peres

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On Thu, 22 Aug 2002, Jim wrote:

>    "It is not that I don't accept that mankind
>     is contributing to Global Warming it is
>     just the ratio between natural and manmade."
>
>We have been made victims of some VERY bad science.
>I don't know why the "Chicken Little syndrome" has hit
>us all - but it has.

>I would rather cite semthing like this than the loosely
>based premises most use in supporting claims of 'global
>warming'.

>(Of course, we are all free to believe anything we want,
>even bad science and lies from those we think are acting
>only in atruistic (sp?) roles.)

They are altruistically getting themselves (re) elected and financed
mostly. You have to admit that having GW as a campaign platform beats
having a campaign platform based on the well known fact that the earth is
a flat disk. After all billions of people thought that for thousands of
years, all over this planet, no ? They couldn't all be wrong, no ? They
were so right they burned a couple of people on the stake (sp?)  because
they had stupid delusions about earth not being a flat disk. Remember that
whatever the mob *thinks* is right, is right. And don't stand in its way
when you think different or you'll be run over. Or worse.

Peter

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2002\08\22@215920 by Russell McMahon

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> ............... based on the well known fact that the earth is
> a flat disk. After all billions of people thought that for thousands of
> years, all over this planet, no ?

No. Or at least, not essentially so.
The knowledge that the earth was a sphere and the proof of it and the
measurement of the size was made well before Christ's time. And the
measurement was reasonably accurate. Refusal to apply available knowledge
for reasons of special interest was, as it often is now, a major part of the
problem.



       RM

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2002\08\23@075307 by Gwynne Reddick

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On Thu, 22 Aug 2002 09:26:51 -0500, Jim wrote:

>The book was published by the American Association of Petroleum
>Geologists.

On the same day as "Smoking can increase your life span by 150 years"
published by the Philip Morris Department of Life Sciences :)

It's also interesting to note that the UK's most vociferous and
outspoken GM critic, Lord Melchet (ex head of UK Greenpeace, famously
arrested and charged with trashing UK GM field trials) is also one of
Europe's largest Organic farmers. As of January this year, he has
joined Burson-Marsteller's Corporate Social Responsibility (CSR) unit
- a Monsanto PR firm...

And, despite it's reputation as a giant multi-national corporation,
Monsanto's annual turnover is around 10 times smaller than the UK
supermarket chain Tesco.

I'll lay my cards on the table, I spent 8 months working on a GM
documentary called Modified Truth. I'm broadly pro GM (I've visited
the hospitals in Africa where they try to cope with a quarter to half
million children going blind from vitamin A deficiency each year -
half of them will die within twelve months of going blind), but more
importantly, I'm vehemently opposed to anything placed before the
public that clouds an informed debate, whether that be bad science,
hooky statistics, or media hysteria.

Gwynne

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2002\08\23@080841 by Gwynne Reddick

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Beggar, I meant to chuck these into the mix:

http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2000/ast20oct_1.htm

www.usatoday.com/news/healthscience/science/climate/2001-11-25-
atlantic-circulation.htm

www.usatoday.com/news/healthscience/science/climate/2002-02-03-
tree-rings.htm

www.usatoday.com/news/healthscience/science/climate/2001-11-16-
ocean-warming-solar-cycle.htm

www.usatoday.com/news/science/climate/2001-10-04-sw-climate-his
tory.htm

http://www.usatoday.com/weather/wnatgrn.htm

http://www.giss.nasa.gov/research/paleo/pliocene/

Gwynne

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2002\08\23@121034 by Brendan Moran

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> > ............... based on the well known fact that the earth is
> > a flat disk. After all billions of people thought that for thousands of
> > years, all over this planet, no ?
>
> No. Or at least, not essentially so.
> The knowledge that the earth was a sphere and the proof of it and the
> measurement of the size was made well before Christ's time. And the
> measurement was reasonably accurate. Refusal to apply available knowledge
> for reasons of special interest was, as it often is now, a major part of
the
> problem.

I've never heard of this before.  I am intrigued.  Could you elaborate on
when, where, etc., this knowledge first came to be please?

--Brendan

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2002\08\23@123747 by Giles Honeycutt

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From the topics, I see most are taking on this list is that we are
introducing additional energy into our ecosystem.  Some from emissions into
the air, some from the heat and energy released by using Earth's stored
energy.
If we ever do get a understanding of the effects this is making, how about a
pro-active approach.
Lets say putting reflective surface on land.  This would radiate the heat
that would have gone into the earth back into space.  On the other hand,
does a solar cell stay cool?  What is the cooling effect of plants?  How
efficient is a leaf for converting the suns energy into hydrocarbons?.
Would a piece of green plastic produce the same heating effect from the suns
energy?

Best regards,
Giles

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2002\08\23@131527 by Jim

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  "If we ever do get a understanding of
   the effects this is making, how about
   a pro-active approach."

The evidence, to date doesn't support the hypothesis
(warming).

Work needs to be done on reconciling the land-station
data (prone to ERROR introduced by humans owing to both
methology AND changed physical aspects of thier location)
with that data taken by *two - count 'em: *****two*****
other (not insignificant!!!!!!!) sources.

Until progress is made on this reconciliation this is an
exercise in gum-flapping ...

It is a sad day indeed when scientific community bases so
monumental a decision on such *BAD* basic inforamation
as tainted land-station temperature datasets.

It's sadder situation indeed that smart, intelligent,
discerning technical-types would glibby accept the
pronouncements of others (espscially governments!!!) with
out checking the basic *facts* upon which those monumental
pronouncements were, and are, being made.

So be it - over the cliff we go, lemmings all ...

"RF" Jim



{Original Message removed}

2002\08\23@201156 by Russell McMahon

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> > The knowledge that the earth was a sphere and the proof of it and the
> > measurement of the size was made well before Christ's time. And the
> > measurement was reasonably accurate.

> I've never heard of this before.  I am intrigued.  Could you elaborate on
> when, where, etc., this knowledge first came to be please?

In about 200 BC Eratosthenes determined the earth's circumference. He noted
that at Alexandria (essentially on the equator) the sun shone vertically
down a well at mid-day but that at Syene (now Aswan) the angle on the same
day of the year was about 7 degrees. By measuring the distance between he
was able to calculate the size of the full circle.

Eratosthenes was the director of THE Library in Alexandria - the pre-eminent
repository of knowledge in the world at that time, so he had the best
available resources available and quite possibly drew on the thinking of his
underlings (which is often enough how Science tends to work.)
Notwithstanding, the available information was there for the thinking
thinker to think about.

       http://www.phys-astro.sonoma.edu/observatory/eratosthenes/

Eratosthenes result was about 6% wrong. It has been suggested (I don't know
on what basis) that the method he used was really to measure the distance to
the horizon from a suitably high point and calculate the size of the earth
accordingly. Such a method would give an error of about 6% if atmospheric
refraction was not taken into account. While he did have one of the highest
man-made landmarks available (the famed Alexandrian light-house - one of the
7 wonders of the world) )

       http://ce.eng.usf.edu/pharos/wonders/pharos.html

It used fire by night and a mirror by day. The reflected rays from its
mirror could be seen from 35 miles out to sea in daylight.

The chances that this was the true method used for the circumference
calculation seems less likely as it is argued that the accuracy measurement
of horizon distance  is difficult. That said, a counter argument can be made
from the ability to easily detect or not detect the mirror reflections at a
distance - the cutoff point IS the horizon if the light is bright enough.

Other people anywhere could have performed similar calculations using
suitably high natural features. It may be interesting to try this without
use of modern resources.


           Russell McMahon

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2002\08\24@015538 by Peter L. Peres

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On Fri, 23 Aug 2002, Russell McMahon wrote:

>> ............... based on the well known fact that the earth is
>> a flat disk. After all billions of people thought that for thousands of
>> years, all over this planet, no ?
>
>No. Or at least, not essentially so.
>The knowledge that the earth was a sphere and the proof of it and the
>measurement of the size was made well before Christ's time. And the
>measurement was reasonably accurate. Refusal to apply available knowledge
>for reasons of special interest was, as it often is now, a major part of the
>problem.

Oh, but finding the truth is no reason for not dropping it and forgetting
it and go looking for it elsewhere.

Peter

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