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'[OT]: Inflateable wing aeroplane'
2001\06\23@101651 by Russell McMahon

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NASA prototype.
RC Model only at this stage.



   http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/PAO/X-Press/stories/053101/new_wing.html

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2001\06\23@211858 by Scott Stephens

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Reminds me of the old "Puffer Kite" - a toy kite that you inflated. I wonder
how long it would take to deflate if an angry bird pecked it? Its been known
to happen. I've read an account (somewhere on the net) of a hang glider
pilot that would take bread crumbs to feed the vultures he would play with,
some of which would peck holes in his big, slow bird wings 8^)

Personaly, I prever bats.

Scott

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{Original Message removed}

2001\06\24@151635 by Peter L. Peres

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> inflatable wing

I am quite sure that something with inflatable wings flew. Quite some time
ago. I saw photos (two) in a magazine. I cannot remember the year and the
magazine but it was there. They had a proper report on it.

Peter

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2001\06\24@152657 by goflo

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Peter L. Peres wrote:
> I am quite sure that something with inflatable wings flew. Quite some time
> ago. I saw photos (two) in a magazine. I cannot remember the year and the
> magazine but it was there. They had a proper report on it.

Right. Rogallo-wings, so-called. Been around since the
50's - Maybe earlier. Ballyhooed for re-entry vehicles.

regards, Jack

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2001\06\24@160745 by Dave King

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At 09:23 PM 6/24/01 +0300, you wrote:
> > inflatable wing
>
>I am quite sure that something with inflatable wings flew. Quite some time
>ago. I saw photos (two) in a magazine. I cannot remember the year and the
>magazine but it was there. They had a proper report on it.
>
>Peter

Look for the GoodYear Inflate-O-Plane,  I think this was a WW2 era design.

Dave

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2001\06\25@042457 by Russell McMahon

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I think the main difference is that this uses fully self supporting wings at
about 250 psi whereas early designs had lower pressure (say 20 psi) for
shape but needed strut or cable supports.


     Russell McMahon
_____________________________

> >I am quite sure that something with inflatable wings flew. Quite some
time
> >ago. I saw photos (two) in a magazine. I cannot remember the year and the
> >magazine but it was there. They had a proper report on it.
> >
> >Peter
>
> Look for the GoodYear Inflate-O-Plane,  I think this was a WW2 era design.

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2001\06\25@093918 by James R. Cunningham

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Goodyear flew a couple of experimental airplanes about 40 years ago.  One of
the test pilots has described an interesting time when one of the craft
developed a slow leak while in flight.

Jim

Peter L. Peres wrote:

> > inflatable wing
>
> I am quite sure that something with inflatable wings flew. Quite some time
> ago. I saw photos (two) in a magazine. I cannot remember the year and the
> magazine but it was there. They had a proper report on it.
>
> Peter

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2001\06\25@104156 by spam

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Visions...

Why not go all the way and make inflateable microlight aircraft ?
Built into a standard leather briefcase, a small jet (controlled by a
PIC of course) as power source ?
With a proper wing one could do with about 6Hp. The trick is to
take off,

so how about this:

At the end of the day you go to the roof of the office building. Open
your briefcase, sit in it and fasten your seatbelt. Pull a ripcord and
POOF you are flung into the air, the jet turbine starts and you are
on your way home - tie flapping like the Red Baron's scarf.

I would love to watch the skyline of New York at 5PM....

Kent

On a more serious note - has any of you heard of other people's
experiments with small jets with catalytic combustion ?
I have experimented a little - if you put a fine meshed net in the
burner chamber (platinum coated) the fuel burns at a lower
temperature. This gives higher mass flow, so you can lower the
speed of the air, maintaining the Re number. And since noise is
proportional to V^4 you get a very quiet turbine.


{Quote hidden}

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2001\06\25@120418 by Martin Baker

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I am just starting to read this thread, but you might want to look up the
Intoya Firebird, a one man helicopter powered by Hydrogen peroxide which is
fed to a platinum coated mesh catalyst. No electrical system. Water and
oxygen as the ehaust, high thrust, very cheap to build.

M

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2001\06\25@121618 by David VanHorn

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At 09:00 AM 6/25/01 -0700, Martin Baker wrote:
>I am just starting to read this thread, but you might want to look up the
>Intoya Firebird, a one man helicopter powered by Hydrogen peroxide which is
>fed to a platinum coated mesh catalyst. No electrical system. Water and
>oxygen as the ehaust, high thrust, very cheap to build.

In case of a crash, did they mention that concentrated peroxide dissolves
skin quite nicely?

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2001\06\25@122920 by Dale Botkin

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On Mon, 25 Jun 2001, David VanHorn wrote:

> At 09:00 AM 6/25/01 -0700, Martin Baker wrote:
> >I am just starting to read this thread, but you might want to look up the
> >Intoya Firebird, a one man helicopter powered by Hydrogen peroxide which is
> >fed to a platinum coated mesh catalyst. No electrical system. Water and
> >oxygen as the ehaust, high thrust, very cheap to build.
>
> In case of a crash, did they mention that concentrated peroxide dissolves
> skin quite nicely?

I think any propellant used in aviation will do a number on you after a
crash.  I had occasion to be in a Cessna 172 when, immediately after
takeoff, the aircraft decided that it really, really wanted to do a steep
banked climbing right turn.  Steep like a snap roll.  As the pilot (thank
God I was not the one flying that day) fought to try to keep it airborne,
I contemplated the effects of the 80 or so gallons of 110 octane avgas
directly overhead.  I did not find it to be a terribly comforting thought
considering the lack of soft or flat places to land ahead of us.

Turned out to be a poorly wired autopilot disengage button on the yoke.
The moral of the story: Always ask if the aircraft has recently had
avionics work done.  If it's just come out of the shop rent something
else.

Dale
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2001\06\25@132201 by goflo

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ames R. Cunningham wrote:
>
> Rogallos are not inflatable.

This one was.

>Rogallo designed a wing supported by a longitudinal
> center spar and two leading edge spars usually having an interior angle of 127
> degrees or thereabouts.  Camber is developed by the pressure jump between the
> upper and lower surface, but it is not internally inflated.

Sounds right. This thing was more parachute than airplane.
Have also seen inflatable motorized hang-gliders, more or
less. Darwin Award stuff, IMHO...

regards, Jack

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2001\06\25@133248 by Octavio P Nogueira

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Do you have any link?

Friendly Regards

Octavio Nogueira
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2001\06\25@134318 by Kevin Olalde

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Try:

http://www.intora-firebird.com/intro.htm

Octavio P Nogueira wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> {Original Message removed}

2001\06\25@141212 by Quentin

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Listen up!
You guys should stop posting me OT topics like this. I am trying to do
some serious work here and you keep on interfering my train of thought
with web pages like this, causing me to go check it out and then I start
thinking about other things.
So please stop sending me posts like this.

;-)
Octavio, a couple of weeks ago the discussion about H2O2 rockets was on
the list with links. search the archives for more info.

Quentin

Kevin Olalde wrote:
>
> Try:
>
> http://www.intora-firebird.com/intro.htm
>

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2001\06\25@151419 by Dave King

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At 11:14 AM 6/25/01 -0500, you wrote:
>At 09:00 AM 6/25/01 -0700, Martin Baker wrote:
>>I am just starting to read this thread, but you might want to look up the
>>Intoya Firebird, a one man helicopter powered by Hydrogen peroxide which is
>>fed to a platinum coated mesh catalyst. No electrical system. Water and
>>oxygen as the ehaust, high thrust, very cheap to build.
>
>In case of a crash, did they mention that concentrated peroxide dissolves
>skin quite nicely?
>
>--
>Dave's Engineering Page: http://www.dvanhorn.org

Some of us on the list even worked on the prototype "Firebird" in Texas
and survived...... ;-]


Dave

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2001\06\26@165455 by Peter L. Peres

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> I am just starting to read this thread, but you might want to look up
> the Intoya Firebird, a one man helicopter powered by Hydrogen peroxide
> which is fed to a platinum coated mesh catalyst. No electrical system.
> Water and oxygen as the ehaust, high thrust, very cheap to build.

Uhh. I don't know much about hydrogen peroxide except that in high
concentration it is about as nice as LOX, only more touchy. I also know
about the Walther cycle steam turbine which used peroxide+catalyst to
generate oxygen and steam and then burned fuel in the oxygen to make
more superheated steam which then drove a turbine. Does that helicopter
burn the oxygen ? And where do you buy 80% peroxide ? Not at the pharmacy
I guess.

Is there a reference on the Intoya Firebird ?

Peter

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2001\06\26@171732 by goflo

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Peter L. Peres wrote:

> Uhh. I don't know much about hydrogen peroxide except that in high
> concentration it is about as nice as LOX, only more touchy. I also know
> about the Walther cycle steam turbine which used peroxide+catalyst to
> generate oxygen and steam and then burned fuel in the oxygen to make
> more superheated steam which then drove a turbine.

I gather there has been a renewal of interest in such schemes
for underwater propulsion systems. More hang time than diesel
electrics, potentially very quiet, much cheaper than nukes.

Jack

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2001\06\27@030412 by Russell McMahon

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> > I am just starting to read this thread, but you might want to look up
> > the Intoya Firebird, a one man helicopter powered by Hydrogen peroxide
> > which is fed to a platinum coated mesh catalyst. No electrical system.
> > Water and oxygen as the ehaust, high thrust, very cheap to build.
>
> Uhh. I don't know much about hydrogen peroxide except that in high
> concentration it is about as nice as LOX, only more touchy. I also know
> about the Walther cycle steam turbine which used peroxide+catalyst to
> generate oxygen and steam and then burned fuel in the oxygen to make
> more superheated steam which then drove a turbine. Does that helicopter
> burn the oxygen ? And where do you buy 80% peroxide ? Not at the pharmacy
> I guess.


This is definitely in the "don't try this at home without lots more
information" class but -
You can buy 50% peroxide fairly easily in most cases. This is relatively
easily able to be concentrated to 80 to 90% by simple low cost techniques.
HP has its handling problems and you can kill yourself with it if you don't
try not to.

Silver coated screens are the traditional catalyst and for this the HP is
limited to 85% concentration as temperature of decomposition relates to
concentration and the screens melt above this. Using other catalysts you can
use eg 98% HP and people do. As a monopropellant rocket fuel it is not
marvellous (Isp under 200) but it is one of the more maneagable
comopropellants all things considered. Project Mercury used it for thrusters
but they went to Hydrazine thrusters from Gemini on.

The first Me163 rocket plane used a Walther HP engine. The later version
used HP plus a multicomponent fuel to increase power (Isp) substantially.

John Carmack of Doom/Quake fame is running a team who are developing an HP
powered manned vertical takeoff and landing "rocket ship".


           Russell McMahon

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2001\06\27@113332 by Martin Baker

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At 01:51 PM 6/27/01 +1200, you wrote:

>This is definitely in the "don't try this at home without lots more
>information" class but -
>You can buy 50% peroxide fairly easily in most cases. This is relatively
>easily able to be concentrated to 80 to 90% by simple low cost techniques.
>HP has its handling problems and you can kill yourself with it if you don't
>try not to.
Since HP generates no pollution and can be stored in certain conditions
without risk of combustion, it is one of the more manageable oxidizers. I
think that many people miss the point that it is not where it can be bought
that matters, but that in can be made at point of use fairly easily.
Imagine if your fueling stations for a hybrid motor vehicle generated their
own fuel, thereby eliminating the need for tanker trucks?

An example might be an aircraft style radial engine, with the braking
function driving boith a generator and an air compressor to pressurize the
H2O2 tank? The exhaust would be water and O2, which if captured could be
fed intop the system for regenerating the H2O2. The catalyst is the big
hangup here, but there are other catalysts...some derviative of reaney
nickel with a touch of carbon might work....

Just a thought experiment, but ait is definitely a box worth thinking
outside of, considering our dependence on vehicular transport... imagine if
you will a rocket powered bicycle.... hee hee...:>

Martin




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