Searching \ for '[OT]: How many women in PicList ?' in subject line. ()
Make payments with PayPal - it's fast, free and secure! Help us get a faster server
FAQ page: www.piclist.com/techref/microchip/devices.htm?key=pic
Search entire site for: 'How many women in PicList ?'.

Exact match. Not showing close matches.
PICList Thread
'[OT]: How many women in PicList ?'
2002\09\18@171408 by Joan Ilari

flavicon
face
Hi !

Just for the sake of curiosity :
Does somebody knows how many women are there in PicList ?
According to the statistics each year there are more and
more women studying engineering, but I hardly can see a few
as PicList posters. Any explanation ? Is it a matter of not
identifying women names ?

BTW : Joan is John in catalan (my mother tongue) ;-)

  Joan Ilari

  Barcelona (Spain)    Tel. +34 93 431 96 39
  spam_OUTjoanTakeThisOuTspamilari.org

================================================================
... I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships
on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter
in the dark near Tannhauser Gate. All those moments will be
lost in time, like tears in rain ... Time to die ...

                                   -Blade Runner -
================================================================

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList
.....piclist-unsubscribe-requestKILLspamspam@spam@mitvma.mit.edu


2002\09\18@173026 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
On Wed, 18 Sep 2002, Joan Ilari wrote:

*>Does somebody knows how many women are there in PicList ?

Yeah, now that we're getting self-censored and pically correct it's time
for a sex-and-age check.  All those under 18 duck now.

Peter

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList
piclist-unsubscribe-requestspamKILLspammitvma.mit.edu


2002\09\18@173436 by eronica Merryfield

flavicon
face
Well, there is me :)
I studied electronics to degree level. In my year of 120, there were 5
females - that was 10 yeas back.
I know work in embedded software and a team leader, providing technical
consultancy to licensees of our OS for mobile handsets, porting this to
thier hardware. I am moving to a silicon technology company soon to do a
more marketing, business development role but still technical and low level.
I guess there just aren't many of us in this sector.
--
Veronica Merryfield, somewhere in Cambridgeshire, UK
"The best things in life aren't things"




{Original Message removed}

2002\09\18@175138 by Sid Weaver

picon face
In a message dated 09/18/2002 17:31:29 Eastern Daylight Time,
.....plpKILLspamspam.....ACTCOM.CO.IL writes:


> Yeah, now that we're getting self-censored and pically correct it's time
> for a sex-and-age check.  All those under 18 duck now.
>

That had a rather masochistic tang to it.

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList
EraseMEpiclist-unsubscribe-requestspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTmitvma.mit.edu


2002\09\18@221125 by Katinka Mills

flavicon
face
I guess this is where I stand up ;o)

Trained to Tech Level (Digital and Radio / TV servicing)

Part way through an Advanced Diploma (soon to start a Degree in EE)

But paper does not count IMHO what counts is experiance and knowledge, I
work as an EE, and I get contracts as an EE, The customer does not care
about a bit of paper as long as the job does what he wants and is completed
to high level.

Most Women seem to be moving to Marketing and becomming FAE's, I have worked
subcontract in many places and I was the only Woman EE :o( Where I am doing
my Advanced Diploma in EE we have about 40 out of 2000 Women studdying. Most
sadley to say will give up when they get into the real world and find the
bias and BS we have to put up with. It is not a race, and we should all be
on an equal playing field.

Regards,

Kat.

**********************************************
K.A.Q. Electronics.
Electronic and Software Engineering.
Perth, Western Australia.
Ph +61 (0) 419 923 731
**********************************************

{Quote hidden}

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.389 / Virus Database: 220 - Release Date: 16/09/2002

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList
RemoveMEpiclist-unsubscribe-requestTakeThisOuTspammitvma.mit.edu


2002\09\19@183000 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
On Wed, 18 Sep 2002, Sid Weaver wrote:

*>> Yeah, now that we're getting self-censored and pically correct it's time
*>> for a sex-and-age check.  All those under 18 duck now.
*>
*>That had a rather masochistic tang to it.

Which part of it ? I am way beyond 18. The pically correct refers to
posting wrt pics (unlike this post f.ex.). Self-censorship regards
avoiding certain posts that are Frowned Upon. Sex and age checks were and
are common in chat groups where one wishes to know who is behind those
funny handles from time to time.

Peter

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic:
[PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads


2002\09\19@184652 by Sid Weaver

picon face
In a message dated 09/19/2002 18:31:08 Eastern Daylight Time,
spamBeGoneplpspamBeGonespamACTCOM.CO.IL writes:


> Which part of it ? I am way beyond 18. The pically correct refers to
> posting wrt pics (unlike this post f.ex.). Self-censorship regards
> avoiding certain posts that are Frowned Upon. Sex and age checks were and
> are common in chat groups where one wishes to know who is behind those
> funny handles from time to time.
>
> Peter
>

Comment withdrawn, Peter.  Your "sex and age" statement makes sense.

Sid

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic:
[PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads


2002\09\19@185319 by Jinx

face picon face
> Comment withdrawn, Peter.  Your "sex and age" statement
> makes sense

Just for the record - I've already been broken down by age and sex

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic:
[PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads


2002\09\19@190042 by Sid Weaver

picon face
In a message dated 09/19/2002 18:54:38 Eastern Daylight Time,
TakeThisOuTjoecolquittEraseMEspamspam_OUTCLEAR.NET.NZ writes:


> Just for the record - I've already been broken down by age and sex
>
>

Do you mean "broken down" like categorized , or "broken down" like useless,
defunct, over-the-hill.  I thought Kiwis went on forever.

Sid

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic:
[PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads


2002\09\19@191417 by hard Prosser

flavicon
face
You're thinking of Cantabrians!
Richard P




In a message dated 09/19/2002 18:54:38 Eastern Daylight Time,
RemoveMEjoecolquittspamTakeThisOuTCLEAR.NET.NZ writes:


> Just for the record - I've already been broken down by age and sex
>
>

Do you mean "broken down" like categorized , or "broken down" like useless,
defunct, over-the-hill.  I thought Kiwis went on forever.

Sid

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic:
[PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic:
[PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads


2002\09\19@191906 by Sid Weaver

picon face
In a message dated 09/19/2002 19:15:23 Eastern Daylight Time,
Richard.ProsserEraseMEspam.....ENERGY.INVENSYS.COM writes:


> You're thinking of Cantabrians!
> Richard P
>
>

Christchurch is my favorite city, especially Cathedral Square.

Sid

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic:
[PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads


2002\09\19@202921 by Jinx

face picon face
> You're thinking of Cantabrians!

Those Spanish people ?

"Cantabrians" is one of those things that's become popular
usage. The Kentish folk call themselves "Canterburians"

Heard somebody on the radio a while ago claiming that they
should be called "Cantabrigians", but I think "Oxon" suited that
particular person better

==================================

As for women on the PIClist, it appears to me that techies are
still mostly men. I doubt that will ever change as men and women
just aren't wired up the same way, even though there is a fair
degree of design and language required for microcontroller
circuits, areas in which women tend to be better at than men

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic:
[PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads


2002\09\19@203539 by Sid Weaver

picon face
In a message dated 09/19/2002 20:30:43 Eastern Daylight Time,
EraseMEjoecolquittspamCLEAR.NET.NZ writes:


> Those Spanish people ?
>
> "Cantabrians" is one of those things that's become popular
> usage. The Kentish folk call themselves "Canterburians"
>
> Heard somebody on the radio a while ago claiming that they
> should be called "Cantabrigians", but I think "Oxon" suited that
> particular person better
>

I thought Cantabrians were the people who lived in or near the Canterbury
area.  Superior, of course, to the Spanish Cantabrians.

Sid

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic:
[PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads


2002\09\19@204407 by hard Prosser

flavicon
face
I was, of course, referring to the New Zealnd Cantabrians - home of the
Canterbury Crusaders the  holders of the Super 12, NPC & Ranfurly Shield.
Richard P





I thought Cantabrians were the people who lived in or near the Canterbury
area.  Superior, of course, to the Spanish Cantabrians.

Sid

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic:
[PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic:
[PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads


2002\09\20@045349 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>I thought Cantabrians were the people who lived in or near the Canterbury
>area.  Superior, of course, to the Spanish Cantabrians.

It is just that the NZ Canterbury is much larger than the UK Canterbury.


And here is me thinking the Spanish one you are thinking of is Catalan ....
:)

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics
(like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics


2002\09\20@053255 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
> It is just that the NZ Canterbury is much larger than the UK Canterbury.

That would be plain to anyone who knows NZ :-( *

           RM


* - Emoticon for a groan unknown
    :-( seems a fair ring-in.

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics
(like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics


2002\09\20@104808 by Jinx

face picon face
> > It is just that the NZ Canterbury is much larger than the UK
> Canterbury.
>
> That would be plain to anyone who knows NZ :-( *
>
>             RM

Hence "Canterbury Plain". Eh

A very industrious part of NZ too, a lot of technology going on
down there

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics
(like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics


2002\09\22@010541 by James Newton, webhost

face picon face
source= http://www.piclist.com/postbot.asp?id=piclist\2002\09\18\171408a

So, three women who are willing to post on the PICList and several unrelated
posts by men.... This sort of thing is EXACTLY why there is an [OT]: topic
tag on the PICList A) it is a place to discuss things that are important and
affect PIC users but are not directly about PIC's and B) it is for people
who can't resist making trivial humorous comments so that they will not
clutter up the main topics.

I'll be the first to say: It SUCKS that there are not more females in
engineering. I never used to believe that bias and discrimination existed in
the "logical" world of computers and technology, but I've since had to admit
that there are probably more people (men) than not who will choose against a
girl for no good reason, and my wife was told by several of her professors
not to pursue technical issues. In high school, she was told "Don't worry
your pretty little head over it, girls don't do math". She is more
intelligent than I (by far) and scored very high on the engineering parts of
the ASVAB aptitude tests. She has a masters degree in clinical social work,
but I think she could have done more for the world as an engineer.

My 7 year old daughter and I have started a "business" where she (with
occasional help from me) takes apart disguarded old computer printers, faxes
and copy machines and collects the gears, pulleys, belts, motors and
switches for resale to local hobbyist groups. If she wants money to buy
something, she spends her time "advertising" parts to my friends and
sometimes on the internet (with my supervision) and I will buy stuff through
a friend if I approve of what she is after... If any body wants to send
their old junk, contact me off list.

Anyway... its a great education in how things work. She spends hours playing
with the stuff we get out of them. Yesterday she disassembled her baby
brothers sesame street pop up toy to retrieve a dime that had fallen into it
and she actually got it back together and almost working by herself on the
first try. She had two of the knobs swapped around but she figured out the
error herself and fixed it.

Wouldn't have time to do any of this if she wasn't home schooled... which we
can do only because my wife has that degree <GRIN>

I'm very proud of "my" girls and anything I can do to encourage qualified
female minds to be involved in science and technology is worth doing. Why
waste a mind just because it's attached to an innee instead of an outee?

One last word.... Don't even THINK about making a sexist comment on this
list as long as I have any say. And if I accidentally make one please call
me on it immediately <GRIN>

---
James Newton: PICList.com webmaster, former Admin #3
RemoveMEjamesnewtonEraseMEspamEraseMEpiclist.com  1-619-652-0593 phone
http://www.piclist.com/member/JMN-EFP-786
PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com

--
http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us!
email RemoveMElistservspam_OUTspamKILLspammitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body


2002\09\22@034448 by Joan Ilari

flavicon
face
> So, three women who are willing to post on the PICList and several
unrelated
> posts by men
....
> I'll be the first to say: It SUCKS that there are not more females in
> engineering. I never used to believe that bias and discrimination existed
in
> the "logical" world of computers and technology,

I am pretty sure that the proportion of women sudying or having a degree on
engineering is far higher than the proportion of women in Piclist.

It seems to be a proportion of 20% of women in the Polytechnical University
here in Barcelona. I don't know the proportion of women in tecnical
universities
around the world but I can bet that it is much higher than the "3 in 10.000"
that
we have scored in Piclist.

Any explanation to the lack of interest shown by women for Piclist ?

Joan Ilari

P.S. My question does not convey any sexist connotation ;-)

--
http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us!
email RemoveMElistservTakeThisOuTspamspammitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body


2002\09\22@041018 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> Any explanation to the lack of interest shown by women for Piclist ?

My experience is that women with a technical education are more likely
(than men) to go for a managerial or 'general interest' career, men are
more likely (compared to women) to go for a career with a high 'geek'
factor and/or have such a hobby. The piclist definitely has a high geek
factor. (I think I have some right to speek, with a former girlfriend
who studied high-voltage electronics, and a wife who did therorethical
physics).

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products

--
http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us!
email EraseMElistservspamspamspamBeGonemitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body


2002\09\22@105415 by Jim

flavicon
face
> Any explanation to the lack of interest shown by women for Piclist ?

How many of them are willing to get their "hands dirty" working
and slugging out a problem ?

Desk-work, report-writing and slaving over a 'hot' simulation
program in a nice cozy office environment with a coffee bar
equipped with 'fridge and vending machines is one thing -

- but a trip out to the transmitter site for an all day job
of changing-out a various *large* RF matching components
and sticking around till after midnight to perform
testing during the 'maintenance window' only to find
other technical problems with the transmitter that
push your leaving the site 'til 4 AM are quite another ...

Based on what I have seen on the PIClist for a number of
years now - it seems that a lot of those who post to the
PIClist have had similar experiences in other areas, so the
question is valid - how many women engage/immerse themselves
so totally in a technical field as opposed to some of the
"he-men" who frequent the list?

BTW - there nothing wrong with 'office work' either. I much
prefer it to trudging into the field - but "I will *do* what
it takes to get the job done" - including total immersion
in it ...

RF Jim

--
http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us!
email RemoveMElistservKILLspamspammitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body


2002\09\22@110818 by Herbert Graf

flavicon
face
{Quote hidden}

       FWIW in my third year of Electrical engineering here in Canada the
percentage was about 30%, for computer engineering it was lower, around 20%.
TTYL

--
http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us!
email listservSTOPspamspamspam_OUTmitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body


2002\09\22@141951 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> > Any explanation to the lack of interest shown by women for Piclist ?
>
> How many of them are willing to get their "hands dirty" working
> and slugging out a problem ?

Hmmm, your text is (maybe unintentional) a bit negative about those who
do not immerse themselves totally in technical details.

How many of us geeks will get their whatevers dirty, making sure that a
project heads for success dispite all social, political and other
organisational problems?

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products

--
http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us!
email spamBeGonelistservSTOPspamspamEraseMEmitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body


2002\09\22@151721 by Shawn Mulligan

picon face
> > > Any explanation to the lack of interest shown by women for Piclist ?
> >
> > How many of them are willing to get their "hands dirty" working
> > and slugging out a problem ?

I suspect there are two reasons why few women participate in the Piclist:

(1) There simply are fewer women in engineering, and
(2) Women are less likely to put their ideas up for public
   scrutiny and possible humiliation in a male forum.

Women face much prejudice within the engineering classroom and it's no
surprise that they might be a little gun-shy in this forum. The statement
"How many of them are willing to get their "hands dirty" working and
slugging out a problem?" is an example of this mindset. The Piclist simply
doesn't reflect society -- In the real world many of the best engineers are
female and many of the worst male.

Most of my life has been spent with non-technical people and I can state for
the record that many women (and men) find male engineers quite arrogant and
boring -- right or wrong, that's the stereotype. In fact, if it weren't for
the high incomes, we would probably be banished from society.

Now, women are forced to deal with the attitudes of their male counterparts
during university and within the workplace, but it's no surprise to me that
they wouldn't spend their spare time reading them.

Nothing personal to any of us, but a general statement, women just don't dig
us or our attitudes.

Shawn





_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx

--
http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us!
email KILLspamlistservspamBeGonespammitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body


2002\09\22@155529 by Jennifer L. Gatza

flavicon
face
I was trying to stay away from this one, but now I can't resist.

> How many of them are willing to get their "hands dirty" working
> and slugging out a problem ?

  < Someone has issues with women; I won't even go there. >

> Any explanation to the lack of interest shown by women for Piclist ?


I am a degreed EE/software engineer now seeking an additional degree in
chemical engineering. I run a small embedded systems consulting business,
and I have been reading the PIClist regularly for the past two years or so.
However, I don't post very often.  Why?

I feel that there are many others with *much* more experience that will have
a better response.  Most of what I know is logic and raw knowledge.  My
experience level pales in the shadows of many other posters.  Perhaps being
female I have less of an ego to maintain.  But with the schedule I keep, I'd
rather be *solving* a problem than chatting to prove that I know more than
someone else on the list.

Also, I view the PIClist as a tool, not a social club.  The repository of
information can be overwhelming if followed too closely.  Thus, rather than
get too involved with every thread being passed around, I just glimpse the
subject lines, occasionally reading a post of interest.  In this way, I
often learn things that I don't realize will be useful until weeks or months
later.

That's my story.  In general, though, I think many women lose interest in
the PIClist for similar reasons: the PIClist, rather than being *just* a
great source of technical information, also has its own social environment.
It's the 'mens club' with its ego battles (whether or not accompanied by
flames) that doesn't interest women - not the geek talk.

I have a bad feeling that this message will be misinterpreted.  Please don't
misunderstand: I am not a feminist.  In fact, I usually shudder at such
conversations.  I just wanted to make at least a feeble attempt at
explaining the disjunction of women on the piclist.  Perhaps, though, this
is why I am an engineer and not a psychologist.

Jen

--
http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us!
email EraseMElistservspamEraseMEmitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body


2002\09\23@025321 by Tal Dayan

flavicon
face
> > How many of them are willing to get their "hands dirty" working
> > and slugging out a problem ?
>
>    < Someone has issues with women; I won't even go there. >

<snip>

> That's my story.  In general, though, I think many women lose interest in
> the PIClist for similar reasons: the PIClist, rather than being *just* a
> great source of technical information, also has its own social
> environment.
> It's the 'mens club' with its ego battles (whether or not accompanied by
> flames) that doesn't interest women - not the geek talk.

Hmm, someone has issues with men; I won't even go there. ;-)

Many of us spend the time here just for the fun of it and for a deep
passion and appreciation for technology and electronics. This is a big
difference from your
approach of using the list just as a problem solving tool.

I would bet that most of the technological innovation are made by people
that have a
deep passion to technology and tweaking and don't just see technology as a
good
way of making a decent living.

Tal

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList
@spam@piclist-unsubscribe-request@spam@spamspam_OUTmitvma.mit.edu


2002\09\23@092419 by Jim

flavicon
face
  "Hmmm, your text is (maybe unintentional) a bit negative
   about those who do not immerse themselves totally in
   technical details."

I think it is an entirely fair question and not negative,
although the responses to it might reveal a bit of the
'PC' (politically correct) world we are now living in
where it is not correct to point out that the 'king
is wearing no clothes' (from Grimm's Fairy Tales?).

How else would you get to the heart of the matter in
asking the central nature of that question without
a lot of fancy foot-work in order to remain PC?

RF Jim

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList
spamBeGonepiclist-unsubscribe-requestspamKILLspammitvma.mit.edu


2002\09\23@094137 by Jim

flavicon
face
Jennifer L. Gatza wrote (in part):

 "I feel that there are many others with *much* more
  experience that will have a better response."

I agree. I'm also here to pick-up different and interesting
ways to solve problems and view 'the workings of world and
the systems at work therein' ...

 "the PIClist, rather than being *just* a great source of
  technical information, also has its own social environment.
  It's the 'mens club' with its ego battles (whether or not
  accompanied by flames) that doesn't interest women - not
  the geek talk.

Call it the means by which 'peer review' is performed. One
would *not* want bad/misleading information to stand without
a challenge ... no?

 "I have a bad feeling that this message will be misinterpreted.

Not at all. Thank you for contributing.

RF Jim

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList
.....piclist-unsubscribe-requestspam_OUTspammitvma.mit.edu


2002\09\23@100148 by Jim

flavicon
face
From: "Shawn Mulligan"

>
> (1) There simply are fewer women in engineering, and

This seems to be generally true.

> (2) Women are less likely to put their ideas up for public
>     scrutiny and possible humiliation in a male forum.

We had quite an exchange here in the last few weeks with
several newbies on the list - and *no* humiliation so this
doesn't hold water ...

>
> Women face much prejudice within the engineering classroom and it's no

They face the same obstacles we do. The same demands on time
to meet deadlines, similar, if not the same needs to east and
sleep.

> surprise that they might be a little gun-shy in this forum. The statement
> "How many of them are willing to get their "hands dirty" working and
> slugging out a problem?" is an example of this mindset. The Piclist simply

Notice, that was a question, not a statement. You are free to infer
correctly or incorrectly as you wish any underlying viewpoints I
hold that may have spurred that question ...

> doesn't reflect society -- In the real world many of the best engineers
are
> female and many of the worst male.

Presented as fact without supporting evidence. My experience
does support so broad and general 'a statement'.

>
> Most of my life has been spent with non-technical people and I can state
for
> the record that many women (and men) find male engineers quite arrogant
and
> boring -- right or wrong, that's the stereotype. In fact, if it weren't
for

My Mom and Sister have this same view of Doctors (both Mom and
Sis are RNs).

> the high incomes, we would probably be banished from society.
>
> Now, women are forced to deal with the attitudes of their male
counterparts


"Forced to deal with the attitudes"? C'mon, this is weak.

I can relate what you might term ABSOLUTE HORROR STORIES of
my Mom's experiences while she worked as an RN at a VA
Hospital owing to patient behavior - so a little 'classroom
kidding' somehow, in my view, falls short on the 'persecution
scale' of abhorrent human behavior.

> during university and within the workplace, but it's no surprise to me
that
> they wouldn't spend their spare time reading them.
>
> Nothing personal to any of us, but a general statement, women just don't
dig
> us or our attitudes.

That may be quite the truth!

RF Jim

>
> Shawn
>

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList
TakeThisOuTpiclist-unsubscribe-request.....spamTakeThisOuTmitvma.mit.edu


2002\09\23@101817 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
>    "Hmmm, your text is (maybe unintentional) a bit negative
>     about those who do not immerse themselves totally in
>     technical details."
>
> I think it is an entirely fair question and not negative,
> although the responses to it might reveal a bit of the
> 'PC' (politically correct) world we are now living in
> where it is not correct to point out that the 'king
> is wearing no clothes' (from Grimm's Fairy Tales?).
>
> How else would you get to the heart of the matter in
> asking the central nature of that question without
> a lot of fancy foot-work in order to remain PC?

I thought similarly about the original but (perhaps unusually ? :-) ) held
my peace.
Let's see if we can separate PC from objectivity (not always possible :-) ).

This is a serious (albeit loquacious) attempt at answering that question.
This is not meant as a put down. I am generally unhappy with "PC" but also
wary of using it as a coverall term for things we don't like. I think there
is a risk of that happening here.

_____________________

> Any explanation to the lack of interest shown by women for Piclist ?

/How many of them are willing to get their "hands dirty" working
and slugging out a problem ?\

This may be seen as starting with an inference that "getting one's hands
dirty" is "real engineering" whereas eg

/Desk-work, report-writing and slaving over a 'hot' simulation
program in a nice cozy office environment with a coffee bar
equipped with 'fridge and vending machines\

is not and that "real men" partake of the former whereas those who favour
the latter are more like "real women" (presumably).

I would not have imagined it to be "being PC" to have felt that this
reflected badly on what appears to be the style of eg Scott Dattalo. Now I
have absolutely no idea of what Scott's "real manly" activities are outside
the list but the image I see onlist is largely of the typical guru (or dare
I say, Nerd). Some might suggest that those who deal largely in software
rather than hardware or even microprocessors rather than heavy current or
even heavy current rather than high power RF or HV transmission or ... are
not "real engineers". But not many I suspect. (I choose Scott as an exemplar
because his "real engineer" status is beyond doubt despite his evident
proclivities :-) ). Now a great many people on this list who are
biologically men tend rather more towards the software/simulation/office
approach than the 4am in the transmitter room approach. Yet they are on this
list. So that doesn't seem an especially good measure of why women are or
aren't attracted.  (It's 1:50am and I've just come up from the dungeon where
I've been wrestling with a light current microcontroller hardware problem.
Dunno where that places me in the continuum :-). )

/Some ... is one thing -
- but a trip out to the transmitter site for an all day job
of changing-out a various *large* RF matching components
and sticking around till after midnight to perform
testing during the 'maintenance window' only to find
other technical problems with the transmitter that
push your leaving the site 'til 4 AM are quite another ...\

Some people may make better life choices than getting involved with jobs
which are liable to place regular unrewarding and antisocial demands on
their lives. Women are notable by often not being i this group when the
activity is a suitably worthwhile one - as almost all women who have raised
children will be able to confirm. It's a matter of priorities perhaps.

/Based on what I have seen on the PIClist for a number of
years now - it seems that a lot of those who post to the
PIClist have had similar experiences in other areas, so the
question is valid - how many women engage/immerse themselves
so totally in a technical field as opposed to some of the
"he-men" who frequent the list?\

Despite my example above there is an element of truth in this, but so what?
Total immersion in life's less worthwhile activities and list membership
don't seem to be well correlated. While there are some on the list like me
and (it seems) Jim who have difficulty getting a life there are many on this
list who are not women but who seem to value many other activities as well
(motorcycling, flying, rocketry are just 3 that come to mind.) So this also
doesn't seem to be a good reason for women not to be involved.

/BTW - there nothing wrong with 'office work' either. I much
prefer it to trudging into the field - but "I will *do* what
it takes to get the job done" - including total immersion
in it .../

I think this was what most caught my attention. This is, it appears to me,
suggesting that "real-women" wont *do* what it takes to get the job done and
won't become totally immersed in any task. There may well be (and I'm sure
there are) generic differences of approach to problem solving between men
and women but the spread of the normal curves for each sex is wide enough
and the means close enough together that the two overlap very well. For
highly visible examples of totally immersed women consider top swimmers (pun
intended) or indeed any top female athlete. There are of course many other
examples but those are highly visible ones. My sister in law was the first
and for a considerable period the only person to obtain honours (A or better
in ALL papers) in a multi year computing course after having been a
"housewife" and mother until about age 35. She seldom if ever sees anything
but the inside of an office but this has no reflection on her willingness
(or capability) to *do* what it takes to get the job done. I suspect that
this was true both before and after her technical brilliance had a chance to
be demonstrated.

To repeat the question

> How else would you get to the heart of the matter in
> asking the central nature of that question without
> a lot of fancy foot-work in order to remain PC?

-Use a genuinely level playing field.
-Not state expectations of women which are clearly not met by many or most
men on the list.

Taken as a whole the feeling I gained was that women were being expected to
meet a hurdle in order to be considered "real engineers" or "real men" or
"probable list members" which was far from that met or expected of the
majority of list members or engineers or men.

2:14am - time for we light current preferring semi engineers to get some
beauty sleep (dearly needed my mirror tells me).



           Russell

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList
TakeThisOuTpiclist-unsubscribe-requestKILLspamspamspammitvma.mit.edu


2002\09\23@103548 by mulliganshawn

picon face
Thanks for your opinion Jim.

Shawn>

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList
.....piclist-unsubscribe-requestspamRemoveMEmitvma.mit.edu


2002\09\23@120457 by Jim

flavicon
face
> /How many of them are willing to get their "hands dirty" working
> and slugging out a problem ?\

and Russell, in dissecting-response form, elaborates, in part:
>
> This may be seen as starting with an inference that "getting one's hands
> dirty" is "real engineering" whereas eg


Perhaps this lost it's meaning in translation, or perhaps
you have experienced no parallels with the same to date ...

This is a colloquial term meant to demonstrate 'total immersion'
and 100% involvement in an activity or the solution of a problem
as one "gets one's hands dirty" - whether by grease, pencil-grey-lead,
blood and guts (the medical practice) or actual 'grease' and late
hours - no further commitment can really be made by a human but
by the entering into one's work so completely so as to be literally
'covered' or engulfed, on occasion, by one's work ... as con-
trasted with addressing the more serious problems at one's job
in a manner as so-much 'technical clerking' (if employed an an
engineer) as opposed to actual (IMO) "engine-eering" (as in
understanding and working with 'the machine').

Perhaps this 100% immersion business has you baffled?

> Some people may make better life choices than getting involved with jobs
> which are liable to place regular unrewarding and antisocial demands on

Assumptions! assumptions! Where will they end!

I chose to contract this - in order to do something I had
not done before and get into an area that I had some interest
in ... I would have equally been as gung-ho had I been an
employee and had this work to complete (it's the kind of
person I am as contrasted with xx% of the population - sans
the participants of the PIClist - who may be characterized
as slackers).

Some of us, believe it or not, have a serious, devoted
interest in how things work (call it 'a taste for the
truth' in life), and for me this comes into play  when
endeavoring specifically in the field of RF engineering
and more generally in that applied field of physics called
'electronics'. I'm sorry if this sort thing of doesn't
translate well to someone who has never seen a fluorescent
lamp light-up (without attachment to the usual circuitry at
it's terminal) under the influence of a high-strength RF field
many feet from the RF 'excited' tower, but to me it is truly
awe-inspiring and once again indicative how of dynamic, vast
and *real* invisible forces of nature that are at work in
this world God created ...

... to see these laws of nature as evidenced as from their
representation on Smith Charts as given by vector impedance
meters to the the design of a proper impedance matching network
and THEN to see that network actually work in it's intended
application (where FAILURE results in arcs and sparks as there
ARE no second chances when working with high-power RF!), is to
me a truly overpowering and ever-confirming that the laws of
physics (once again) as laid out and determined (and enforced
continually!) by an all-knowing creator work every time ...

... and to succeed in such an endeavor after days or weeks of
work results in something akin to giving birth (I would suppose)
and results in a very warm and satisfying personal feeling and
a confirmation that one's knowledge and training in such
arcane/obscure field of RF engineering can result in practical
devices and again, underscore the objectivity of 'the real world'
and the laws of nature that governs it.


> While there are some on the list like me and (it seems) Jim who
> have difficulty getting a life there are many on this

What - more assumptions? Thanks, Russell, but I have a life, it could
probably be improved on, but in the mean time - I have one.

> I think this was what most caught my attention. This is, it appears to me,
> suggesting that "real-women" wont *do* what it takes to get the job done
and
> won't become totally immersed in any task. There may well be (and I'm sure

Nor will *most* people (become totally immersed problem solving/a
specific task at hand). This is part of human nature that continually
exhibits itself, yet, few seem to recognize it ...

Perhaps *you* can explain why the average man does not enjoy
more perceived success? I leave this for you to work out ...

Addendum.

I think I've said this before, Russell, that I really don't
appreciate each and every bit of one of my posts being pulled apart
and cross-analyzed when it is in the *totallity* of that post
that my point is made.

This is akin to pulling out only portions of a speech made by a
public figure disliked by the press who then that make that their
'highlight' of the top-of-the-hour-news for the next five or six
hours.

Thank you for your honoring this request in the future, Russell.

RF Jim

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList
RemoveMEpiclist-unsubscribe-requestspamspamBeGonemitvma.mit.edu


2002\09\23@123640 by Sean Wright

flavicon
face
Question:  didn't we go through all this in the 70's and 80's?

-----Original Message-----
From: pic microcontroller discussion list
[spamBeGonePICLIST@spam@spamspam_OUTMITVMA.MIT.EDU] On Behalf Of Jim
Sent: Monday, September 23, 2002 12:05 PM
To: TakeThisOuTPICLISTspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [OT]: How many women in PicList ?

> /How many of them are willing to get their "hands dirty" working
> and slugging out a problem ?\

and Russell, in dissecting-response form, elaborates, in part:
>
> This may be seen as starting with an inference that "getting one's
hands
> dirty" is "real engineering" whereas eg


Perhaps this lost it's meaning in translation, or perhaps
you have experienced no parallels with the same to date ...

This is a colloquial term meant to demonstrate 'total immersion'
and 100% involvement in an activity or the solution of a problem
as one "gets one's hands dirty" - whether by grease, pencil-grey-lead,
blood and guts (the medical practice) or actual 'grease' and late
hours - no further commitment can really be made by a human but
by the entering into one's work so completely so as to be literally
'covered' or engulfed, on occasion, by one's work ... as con-
trasted with addressing the more serious problems at one's job
in a manner as so-much 'technical clerking' (if employed an an
engineer) as opposed to actual (IMO) "engine-eering" (as in
understanding and working with 'the machine').

Perhaps this 100% immersion business has you baffled?

> Some people may make better life choices than getting involved with
jobs
> which are liable to place regular unrewarding and antisocial demands
on

Assumptions! assumptions! Where will they end!

I chose to contract this - in order to do something I had
not done before and get into an area that I had some interest
in ... I would have equally been as gung-ho had I been an
employee and had this work to complete (it's the kind of
person I am as contrasted with xx% of the population - sans
the participants of the PIClist - who may be characterized
as slackers).

Some of us, believe it or not, have a serious, devoted
interest in how things work (call it 'a taste for the
truth' in life), and for me this comes into play  when
endeavoring specifically in the field of RF engineering
and more generally in that applied field of physics called
'electronics'. I'm sorry if this sort thing of doesn't
translate well to someone who has never seen a fluorescent
lamp light-up (without attachment to the usual circuitry at
it's terminal) under the influence of a high-strength RF field
many feet from the RF 'excited' tower, but to me it is truly
awe-inspiring and once again indicative how of dynamic, vast
and *real* invisible forces of nature that are at work in
this world God created ...

... to see these laws of nature as evidenced as from their
representation on Smith Charts as given by vector impedance
meters to the the design of a proper impedance matching network
and THEN to see that network actually work in it's intended
application (where FAILURE results in arcs and sparks as there
ARE no second chances when working with high-power RF!), is to
me a truly overpowering and ever-confirming that the laws of
physics (once again) as laid out and determined (and enforced
continually!) by an all-knowing creator work every time ...

... and to succeed in such an endeavor after days or weeks of
work results in something akin to giving birth (I would suppose)
and results in a very warm and satisfying personal feeling and
a confirmation that one's knowledge and training in such
arcane/obscure field of RF engineering can result in practical
devices and again, underscore the objectivity of 'the real world'
and the laws of nature that governs it.


> While there are some on the list like me and (it seems) Jim who
> have difficulty getting a life there are many on this

What - more assumptions? Thanks, Russell, but I have a life, it could
probably be improved on, but in the mean time - I have one.

> I think this was what most caught my attention. This is, it appears to
me,
> suggesting that "real-women" wont *do* what it takes to get the job
done
and
> won't become totally immersed in any task. There may well be (and I'm
sure

Nor will *most* people (become totally immersed problem solving/a
specific task at hand). This is part of human nature that continually
exhibits itself, yet, few seem to recognize it ...

Perhaps *you* can explain why the average man does not enjoy
more perceived success? I leave this for you to work out ...

Addendum.

I think I've said this before, Russell, that I really don't
appreciate each and every bit of one of my posts being pulled apart
and cross-analyzed when it is in the *totallity* of that post
that my point is made.

This is akin to pulling out only portions of a speech made by a
public figure disliked by the press who then that make that their
'highlight' of the top-of-the-hour-news for the next five or six
hours.

Thank you for your honoring this request in the future, Russell.

RF Jim

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList
piclist-unsubscribe-requestEraseMEspammitvma.mit.edu

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList
RemoveMEpiclist-unsubscribe-requestEraseMEspamspam_OUTmitvma.mit.edu


2002\09\23@134816 by Brian Smith

flavicon
face
Congratulations on such a bright daughter!  I have hopes that my
children will do as well in their home schooling (I have three
children: 5 yrs, 2 yrs and 4 months).

Any curriculum that your family uses?  My 5 year-old son sounds
like your daughter, and I want to encourage that kind of
inquisitiveness.

Brian Smith


> {Original Message removed}

2002\09\23@144306 by Brian Smith

flavicon
face
> Congratulations on such a bright daughter!  I have hopes that my
> children will do as well in their home schooling (I have three
> children: 5 yrs, 2 yrs and 4 months).

... rest deleted ...

Please forgive my misaddressing!  This was intended to reply to James,
NOT to the whole list.  Curse my clumsy fingers!

More on the original topic, I don't care how many ladies are on the list
as long as they aren't restricted or otherwise discriminated against.  I
suspect that many don't reply because they don't care to be the object of
focus.  Too many internet groups place an unhealthy amount of interest in
the XX gender, and it really shouldn't matter.  Discrimination is enabled
when you start to classify people into groups.  You could get me going for
hours on this subject, as I have seen (but not necessarily experienced)
discrimination from both sides.

Brian Smith

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList
@spam@piclist-unsubscribe-requestRemoveMEspamEraseMEmitvma.mit.edu


2002\09\23@165717 by David Minkler

flavicon
face
Hi Brian,
You might try:

http://www.oism.org/oism/s32p28.htm

I have seen the results in Dr. Robinson's own children and will be using
the curriculum suplementally with my own daughter.

Best regards,

Dave

Brian Smith wrote:
>
> Any curriculum that your family uses?  My 5 year-old son sounds
> like your daughter, and I want to encourage that kind of
> inquisitiveness.

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList
EraseMEpiclist-unsubscribe-requestspam@spam@mitvma.mit.edu


2002\09\23@170134 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
> > (2) Women are less likely to put their ideas up for public
> >     scrutiny and possible humiliation in a male forum.

> We had quite an exchange here in the last few weeks with
> several newbies on the list - and *no* humiliation so this
> doesn't hold water ...

This list, be it ever so polite, dishes out humiliation or potential
humiliation very regularly. The dishing out is largely restricted to a few
and it may be that the thickness of skin which comes from experience and or
age makes it harder for us somewhat older ones to see how others feel about
it. As an example, take an acknowledged master who won't be humiliated by my
taking his name in vain: Olin will fry the heat resisting paint off a newbie
at half a kiloparsec - while I am sure that he thinks he is balanced and
reasonable and is helping youngsters attain a more reasonable demeanour more
rapidly than they otherwise would, I am sure that there are more than a few
who would rather not post than risk his ire. That said, Olin's positive
contributions are undoubted and I haven't noted him being rude to women.

I'll leave the other points to others to avoid further humiliating myself
:-).  Now, have I got the tag right and trimmed the message properly ? (But
I did manage to leave my name off the first time when sending).


       Russell McMahon

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList
@spam@piclist-unsubscribe-requestspam_OUTspam.....mitvma.mit.edu


2002\09\24@010309 by James Newton, webhost

face picon face
source= http://www.piclist.com/postbot.asp?id=piclist\2002\09\23\134816a

My wife uses Calvert and Oak Meadow. I use the "teachable moment" and the
"make mistakes, get messy and have fun" methods. The wife does animals (5
cats, 6 chickens, a rabbit and a hedgehog) and teaches the kids about life,
living things, etc.. and I do machines, logic, and building. She does
liberal I do conservative. She does democrat, I do republican. She does
civil rights, I do business. We agree to disagree.

The kids will be well rounded or schizophrenic <GRIN>

But my daughter knows that she can do technical work just as good or better
than any boy. And I really don't want anyone else to think otherwise...

...come on people, there are boys AND girls who want to learn this stuff,
and the girls haven't had a clear message that we will welcome them.

---
James Newton: PICList.com webmaster, former Admin #3
spamBeGonejamesnewtonEraseMEspampiclist.com  1-619-652-0593 phone
http://www.piclist.com/member/JMN-EFP-786
PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic:
[PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads


2002\09\24@012132 by Dale Botkin

flavicon
face
On Mon, 23 Sep 2002, James Newton, webhost wrote:

> The wife does animals (5 cats, 6 chickens, a rabbit and a hedgehog)
> and teaches the kids about life, living things, etc.. and I do
> machines, logic, and building. She does liberal I do conservative. She
> does democrat, I do republican. She does civil rights, I do business.
> We agree to disagree.

... and having met James' wife, I can tell you without question she's far
better looking.  No question.  8-)

Dale

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic:
[PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads


2002\09\24@031401 by Eric Bohlman

picon face
9/23/02 9:04:44 AM, Russell McMahon <apptechspamBeGonespamPARADISE.NET.NZ> wrote:

>
>I think this was what most caught my attention. This is, it appears to me,
>suggesting that "real-women" wont *do* what it takes to get the job done and
>won't become totally immersed in any task. There may well be (and I'm sure
>there are) generic differences of approach to problem solving between men
>and women but the spread of the normal curves for each sex is wide enough
>and the means close enough together that the two overlap very well. For

Yes.  It's well known that men are, *on average* better at solving visual/spatial problems and
women are, *on average* better at solving verbal-type problems, but the differences are also very
slight.  They're almost a classical illustration of the difference between *statistical*
significance and *practical* importance.  They're too small to create practical differences in
technical proficiency unless, *possibly*, you go *way* out into the right tails of the
distribution.  It's *possible* that the differences are enough to cause men to be
disproportionately represented among the *very top* engineers in the world, but very few engineers
fall into that category.

I think what's going on is that while men and women don't have practical differences in pure
technical proficiency, men are more likely than women to have the other parts of the "geek
package."  Someone mentioned the desire to totally immerse oneself in technology.  At the extreme
end, that seems to require some autistic-like tendencies (mild Asperger's syndrome) and that turns
out to be a lot more common in men than women.  And men, especially men with mild Aspergers, tend
to have much thicker skins than women; the flaming that's a traditional part of geek culture could
very well turn many women off; they're not socialized (or biologically disposed, as in the
Aspergers case) to simply brush it off. let alone engage in it.

There's also the little matter that total immersion requires a lot of *time*, and women tend to
have more social demands on their time.  It's one thing for a single person to put in 16-hour
workdays and devote most of the spare time to a passion, but for married/coupled people, normally
only *one* partner can afford to do that; it's only possible precisely because the other partner
is devoting a lot of their time to the other stuff that needs to be done.  A married man who's
almost totally devoted to his vocation or avocation almost always has a wife behind the scenes
taking up all the slack.  For various social/historical reasons, it's ususally the woman who's the
slack-taker.  A married woman who wanted to get "totally immersed" would almost always need to
have a house-husband, and while that's getting more common, it's still far from the norm.

Somebody mentioned that women seem more heavily represented in the field application engineering
area than in hardcore design.  That may be because FAE provides a fair amount of social contact,
whereas hardcore design can be used as a way to *avoid* social contact.  If women are, as I think,
less likely to be lonergeeks than men, that would easily explain the difference without any
reference to differences in technical proficiency.

So far I haven't addressed any possible issues of discrimination or deliberate attempts on the
part of male engineers or students to make females seem uncomfortable, but I'll just note two
things: 1) The phrase "political correctness" reared its head almost the instant somebody
suggested that male domination of engineering isn't the result of something near to a law of
physics and 2) it's a well-known economic phenomenon that as the percentage of women in a
particular line of work increases, the average salary for that line of work either decreases or
sees a dropoff in rate of increase.

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic:
[PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads


2002\09\24@112857 by mulliganshawn

picon face
Eric wrote:

> So far I haven't addressed any possible issues of discrimination or
deliberate attempts on the
> part of male engineers or students to make females seem uncomfortable, but
I'll just note two
> things: 1) The phrase "political correctness" reared its head almost the
instant somebody
> suggested that male domination of engineering isn't the result of
something near to a law of
> physics and 2) it's a well-known economic phenomenon that as the
percentage of women in a
> particular line of work increases, the average salary for that line of
work either decreases or
> sees a dropoff in rate of increase.
>

Making these points has 'nothing' to do with 'political correctness' and
everything to do with 'sociological fact.'

Shawn

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic:
[PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads


2002\09\24@142922 by Joan Ilari

flavicon
face
Dear all

I have been surprised by all the posts that have followed
my (rather simple) question : how many women are there
in Piclist ?
Probably this was a question that I should have asked
privately to one of the admins of the list. But I suspected
(I don't know if I'm right) that the list admins didn't know
the answer.
Anyway, the answer from our community has shown
that :

1- there are some stereotypes which are deeply buried
in our technical brains but which need only a very small
stymulus to arise

2- that we are able to complicate even the most simple
matter if we have the tools and the time to do it (Dilbert,
you are right !)

3- As I suspected, there are only a few women in
Piclist.

On the other hand, I have no doubt at all of the
capability and competence of women to solve
technical problems. Why they don't use their skills
in this field ? Probably because they find them
boring.

Best regards to all

Joan Ilari

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic:
[PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads


2002\09\24@152342 by Sid Weaver

picon face
In a message dated 09/24/2002 14:30:34 Eastern Daylight Time,
RemoveMEjoan.ilari@spam@spamspamBeGoneTERRA.ES writes:


{Quote hidden}

Joan, I couldn't agree with you more.  However, I think that the path a woman
pursues in her post-formative years is to a large extent affected by her
childhood environment.  The daughter in a  medically-oriented family is more
likely to become a doctor or pharmacist or medical technican than the
daughter of a farming family, and the daughter in a scientifically-oriented
family is more likely to become a physicist, a mathemetician or a software
engineer than the daughter of say, a banker.  Irregardless, I strongly feel
that all women should be allowed to purse whatever future they desire, based
upon their intelligence, preferences, and dedication, without discrimination
as to salary, position or responsibilites.

I personally hope to see you on this list in the future, as well as your
charming contemporaries.

Sid

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic:
[PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads


2002\09\24@154441 by Mike Mansheim

flavicon
face
Joan Ilari:
>> On the other hand, I have no doubt at all of the
>> capability and competence of women to solve
>> technical problems. Why they don't use their skills
>> in this field ? Probably because they find them
>> boring.

Sid Weaver:
> Joan, I couldn't agree with you more...
> <snip>
> I personally hope to see you on this list in the future, as well as your
> charming contemporaries.

Sounds as though you missed Joan's disclaimer/explanation at the very
beginning of this thread!

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic:
[PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads


2002\09\24@160900 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
> Perhaps this 100% immersion business has you baffled?

You very obviously don't know me at all :-)
My wife would set you right on this score (as would various friends (while
shaking their heads)).

> Some of us, believe it or not, have a serious, devoted
> interest in how things work (call it 'a taste for the
> truth' in life),

Amen brother !
Seriously though, is there any other way to live ?

> and for me this comes into play  when
> endeavouring specifically in the field of RF engineering
> and more generally in that applied field of physics called
> 'electronics'.

I am, as I occasionally remark,

   "Jack of all trades, Master of Electrical Engineering"

(which is far closer to Franklin's / Poor Richards original quote than the
modern aberration thereof).

BUT - if it moves, breathes, ticks, flaps, sublimates, flows, grows,
conducts, phase changes, rotates, extrudes, nutates, gyrates, vibrates,
reverberates, effervesces, coalesces, compresses, scintillates, fluoresces,
migrates, expands, compands, polymerises, synthesises, rolls, slides, ties,
chips, abrades, fractures, glissades, slides, hops, skips, plucks, twangs,
sinks (or floats), coats, embalms, extends, embeds, encroaches, broaches,
spreads (or thixatropes), shrinks, winks, blows, chills (or heats),
convects/conducts/ or radiates, climbs, falls, refrigerates, eviscerates,
emaciates (though bios a weak suite), bends, hinges, folds, unpacks,
unwraps, warps, twists, attracts, compacts, reacts, flies, hovers, glides,
inters, spalls, fractures, splits, conjoins, catalyses, metamorphs, rings,
damps, clamps, amplifies, resists, or ......  . Or doesn't, I'm fascinated.

(Sorry if there's any duplications there. Please add to the list, I'll
join!)

> I'm sorry if this sort thing of doesn't
> translate well to someone who has never seen a fluorescent
> lamp light-up (without attachment to the usual circuitry at
> it's terminal) under the influence of a high-strength RF field
> many feet from the RF 'excited' tower,

... my best toy in that area was a 3 kW surplus 27 MHz plastic welder. Small
no doubt by real men's RF standards but a great toy.

> but to me it is truly
> awe-inspiring and once again indicative how of dynamic, vast
> and *real* invisible forces of nature that are at work in
> this world God created ...

I can't argue with that. But I find the Caterpillar-Butterfly transition
even more so. Each to their own favourite demonstrations ! :-)

> ... to see these laws of nature as evidenced ....
> ...... continually!) by an all-knowing creator work every time ...

No arguments there. Well, almost none :-). We still have to work out what
all His laws really are :-)

> ... and to succeed in such an endeavour after days or weeks of
> work results in something akin to giving birth (I would suppose)

Only a second approximation I suspect - but the closest we mere males may
get to true creativity.

> Nor will *most* people (become totally immersed problem solving/a
> specific task at hand). This is part of human nature that continually
> exhibits itself, yet, few seem to recognize it ...

OK. But if so this would very probably eliminate a significant number of
people on this list who are not women (which is pertinent to the original
point).

{Quote hidden}

I've agreed more or less albeit light heartedly with most of what you were
saying. I have to make slightly more serious comment on the last request.
You may notice (and may not) that I don't make too much comment lately on
your comments. In this particular case you expressely invited comment -
perhaps mainly from one list member but in open forum. In the past where I
have picked out specific parts of a post to comment on you have complained.
In this case I commented in totality pargraph by paragraph to avoid such
complaint. But got a complaint about comment anyway. I think I did comment
on the totality of your post - that was the honest aim but the result may
have fallen short of the intention. It's easy with written messages like
this to get a fairly disjointed result. Would be better if I could buy you a
Coke (the black wet sort) and we could talk verbally but that's (of course)
not the nature of the medium we deal through here. I don't think we can
really achieve much more than butting heads but sometimes it may be useful
to try.

Regardless of our obvious differences of perspective and our obvious
commonalities - good luck with your joyous RFing - I appreciate it and
understand it as well as a non true-initiate may. (Having held a full
amateur licence for two+ decades (3+?) and still remembering tuning 807
finals for max RF out by peaking the blue glow on the tube envelopes where
the holes in the anodes allowed electrons to impact the glass (very slighly
off resonant dip on a Pi coupler interestingly) I have some glimmer of what
its about. (I wonder how many XRays accompanied that blue glow :-) ?). I get
about as much joy from seeing a well constructed water rocket hanging as a
small dot high above and then backsliding perfecly without a judder, but
such mysteries are (also) not easily conveyed to the uninitiated. The
remembered song of a bucking sliding (underpowered) Jawa (not the Star Wars
(tm) ones) on an off camber downhill gravel corner is almost as evocative,
though now part of dimming memory. And no engineering involved until
afterwards. Now there's a thought - I've noticed that not many women ride
motorcycles. I wonder .... ? :-)


       Russell McMahon


PS
Warning: Not all or any of the above may make sense depending on your state
of mind when you read it and/or mine when I wrote it. Bed time (2:45am).

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic:
[PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads


2002\09\24@164434 by hard Prosser

flavicon
face
Russell
Ah - yes - the old Jawa - my brother had one & I "fixed it" as required. (&
charged the battery as the alternator was missing)
Was your model the one with the leading link front suspension - useless on
sand!

Richard P



Snipped ..............

The
remembered song of a bucking sliding (underpowered) Jawa (not the Star Wars
(tm) ones) on an off camber downhill gravel corner is almost as evocative,
though now part of dimming memory. And no engineering involved until
afterwards. Now there's a thought - I've noticed that not many women ride
motorcycles. I wonder .... ? :-)


       Russell McMahon

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic:
[PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads


2002\09\24@171540 by Joan Ilari

flavicon
face
>
> I personally hope to see you on this list in the future, as well as your
> charming contemporaries.
>

Sid,

Thanks for your friendly attitude, but ...

1- I have been in this list rather actively in the past (you can check the
archives), most of the times getting very valuable information from
Piclististers, a few times helping others :-)

2- From your post and my poor english I understand that you think
that I'm a woman.... In my first post I pointed out that Joan is the catalan
name for John (so as not confuse people) ;-)

<start of nationalist addendum>
FYI : catalan is the language spoken in Catalonia (more precisely the
so-called Catalan countries), a region in the south-east of France and
the north-east of Spain. It is a poorly known language out of these
regions even if it is spoken by 6 million people, that is, it is spoken
by more people than some languages official in the European Community.
At home I have always spoken catalan. When I was a child (the times
of Franco distatorship) catalan culture suffered a heavy repression.
<end of nationalist addendum>

Best regards

Joan Ilari

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic:
[PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads


2002\09\24@194500 by Shawn Mulligan

picon face
Joan wrote:

>Dear all
>
>I have been surprised <snipped>.
>I suspect <snipped>
>
>1- <snipped> stereotypes <snipped> need only a very small <snipped>
>stymulus to arise
>
>2- we <snipped> have the tools <snipped> to do it,
>
>3- As I suspected <snipped>.
>
>On the other hand <snipped> women <snipped> find them boring.
>
>Best regards to all
>
>Joan Ilari

Thanks for clearing it up... makes perfect sense now ;)

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic:
[PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads


2002\09\24@195217 by Shawn Mulligan

picon face
>2- From your post and my poor english I understand that you think
>that I'm a woman.... In my first post I pointed out that Joan is the
>catalan
>name for John (so as not confuse people) ;-)

Joan, would you agree to be a women, in this context only? It would be
really be helpful.

Shawn

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
http://www.hotmail.com

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic:
[PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads


2002\09\26@103031 by new new

picon face

Joan,

I studied elec eng in Milwaukee (Just north of Chicago).

About three years ago the dean of EE at my school told me the most aggressive engineering schools in the US were recruiting about 20% women.  Still a mans field.  Most of the women I know in the US with engineering degress are marketing, tech sales or some form of management.  I do electrical development work with pic micros for the heavy truck industry.

 

Susan



 

>From: Joan Ilari
>Reply-To: pic microcontroller discussion list
>To: PICLIST@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
>Subject: [OT]: How many women in PicList ?
>Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 22:59:06 +0200
>
>Hi !
>
>Just for the sake of curiosity :
>Does somebody knows how many women are there in PicList ?
>According to the statistics each year there are more and
>more women studying engineering, but I hardly can see a few
>as PicList posters. Any explanation ? Is it a matter of not
>identifying women names ?
>
>BTW : Joan is John in catalan (my mother tongue) ;-)
>
> Joan Ilari
>
> Barcelona (Spain) Tel. +34 93 431 96 39
> joan@ilari.org
>
>================================================================
> ... I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships
> on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter
> in the dark near Tannhauser Gate. All those moments will be
> lost in time, like tears in rain ... Time to die ...
>
> -Blade Runner -
>================================================================
>
>--
>http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList
>mailto:piclist-unsubscribe-request@mitvma.mit.edu
>
>


Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: Click Here
-- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.

More... (looser matching)
- Last day of these posts
- In 2002 , 2003 only
- Today
- New search...