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'[OT]: Honda enters small cogeneration plant market'
2005\10\29@121349 by Peter

picon face

They say 85% overall efficient out of which 65% heat recovery and
electrical output 1kW, thermal 3.5kW. The size of a small washing
machine (date: April 2005)

http://world.honda.com/news/2005/p050427.html

Peter


'[OT]: Honda enters small cogeneration plant market'
2005\11\01@023037 by Gus Salavatore Calabrese
face picon face
They say 85% overall efficient out of which 65% heat recovery and
electrical output 1kW, thermal 3.5kW. The size of a small washing
machine (date: April 2005)


http://world.honda.com/news/2005/p050427.html

000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
I note that the Honda device uses a natural gas engine.
I wonder what the MTTF is ?
I also wonder if it can be converted to propane for those of us who live
in the hills.

AGSC

2005\11\01@131019 by James Newtons Massmind

face picon face
Looks like a very nice unit. If you have to heat with NG or Propane you
might as well generate some electricity at the same time huh? If you need to
made your own heat and electricity, both, this this is ideal.

But is it not true that you would get less heat from the same amount of gas
since some of the energy in the gas is now being made into electricity? And
isn't the local power company better able to generate electricity? So if you
have electric power from the grid, this is only useful as a backup generator
right?

I guess I would need a spreadsheet that shows operating cost and heat and
electricity output vs. the same output from a standard gas heater and the
local utility company.

---
James.



> {Original Message removed}

2005\11\01@131619 by Peter

picon face

On Mon, 31 Oct 2005, Gus Salavatore Calabrese wrote:

> They say 85% overall efficient out of which 65% heat recovery and
> electrical output 1kW, thermal 3.5kW. The size of a small washing
> machine (date: April 2005)
>
> http://world.honda.com/news/2005/p050427.html
>
> 000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
> I note that the Honda device uses a natural gas engine.
> I wonder what the MTTF is ?
> I also wonder if it can be converted to propane for those of us who live
> in the hills.

Propane has a higher heat value than natural gas so it can almost
certainly be converted by changing things in the carb (or gas metering
device).

Peter

2005\11\01@170633 by Mike Hord

picon face
> I guess I would need a spreadsheet that shows operating cost and heat and
> electricity output vs. the same output from a standard gas heater and the
> local utility company.

Or some quick math...

Power generation efficiency is 20%.  Is one BTU/joule/kwh/insert-your-
favorite-flavor-of-energy-unit-here of electricity more or less expensive
than 5 BTUs of natural gas?  Natural gas is usually measured in therms...
1 therm = 100,000 BTU = 29.3 kwh
Google says...
www.apta.com/research/info/online/documents/fuelsurvy.pdf
Outdated, for 1999-2000, but since both prices are for that time frame,
something like apples and apples...
$.071/kwh for electricity,
$.6989/therm for natural gas = $.024/kwh
20% of the natural gas energy going into the device becomes electricity,
and if I'm reading it right, 65% of the remainder is turned into home heat.
So, 1 kwh of delivered electricity costs 12 cents (requiring 5 kwh of gas),
but of the remaining 4 kwh of energy, 2.6 kwh go into your house as
heat.  Subtract that 2.6 kwh = 6.24 cents from the 12 cents, since you
would pay it for home heating anyway, and you are left with 5.76 cents
per kwh.  If you max the sucker out, pulling its full 1 kw all the time, you
stand to save about $9.65 a month.  During the winter, when your furnace
is on and this contraption can take up some of the slack of heating the
house.

If it's 65% of overall is captured as heat, then subtract 3.25 kwh =
7.8 cents from the 12 cents, leaving 4.2 cents per kwh of electricity
and bringing the savings to $20.88 per month.  More promising.

IF it's fairly cheap, there may be a market in placing several of these
at different spots throughout a largish house, replacing one large,
expensive furnace with several small, cheap ones, which also offset
their cost by putting some power back into the house.

During the summer, of course, you'd either need to put it outside or run
an additional air conditioner to offset its heat output.

Mike H.

2005\11\01@214808 by Rolf

face picon face
... and you would need a sound-proof room to contain the noise it makes.

Not sure about the rest of you, but my AC unit *outside* is really loud,
and this is supposed to be "on par" with that. It would be challenging
to contain the noise in the basement, let alone with having usits spread
around the house.

Rolf

Mike Hord wrote:

{Quote hidden}

2005\11\02@060108 by Byron A Jeff

face picon face
On Tue, Nov 01, 2005 at 04:06:32PM -0600, Mike Hord wrote:
> > I guess I would need a spreadsheet that shows operating cost and heat and
> > electricity output vs. the same output from a standard gas heater and the
> > local utility company.
>
> Or some quick math...
>
> Power generation efficiency is 20%.  Is one BTU/joule/kwh/insert-your-
> favorite-flavor-of-energy-unit-here of electricity more or less expensive
> than 5 BTUs of natural gas?  Natural gas is usually measured in therms...
> 1 therm = 100,000 BTU = 29.3 kwh

But you have to multiply that by an efficiency factor. From a heating perspective
Electricity is 100% efficient. NG in a high efficiency unit is about 85%.

> Google says...
> www.apta.com/research/info/online/documents/fuelsurvy.pdf
> Outdated, for 1999-2000, but since both prices are for that time frame,
> something like apples and apples...
> $.071/kwh for electricity,
> $.6989/therm for natural gas = $.024/kwh

It's apples and gorillas now. I just switched to a Time of Use plan for
electricity and just locked in my NG rate for the next year. Try these on
for size:

Electricity: $0.0517/khw
NG: $1.679/therm

Ouch!

That's why I'm working desparately to switch out my ancient NG furnace for
electricity.

BAJ

2005\11\02@064438 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
> Electricity: $0.0517/khw
> NG: $1.679/therm
>
> Ouch!
>
> That's why I'm working desparately to switch out my ancient NG
> furnace for
> electricity.

In the UK natural gas is artificially cheap due to the need to waste
North Sea Gas and use it up before it should be used so consumer NG
cogen plants are attractive there - which is why the Whispergen
Stirling sale was made.

The US pricing seems equally wrong but in the other direction.

In NZ domestic electricity is almost to $NZ0.20/kWh (about
$US0.14/kWh) and home cogen using old diesel engines is starting to
look attractive. A single lunger Lister or similar (which will run for
about forever due to low energy density) and a surplus alternator
should compete very nicely with the latest rates. Diesel is about
$NZ1/litre retail at present.


       RM


2005\11\02@084322 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
Russell McMahon wrote:

> [...] and home cogen using old diesel engines is starting to look
> attractive.

Possibly not for the neighbors... I'm not sure, but it seems to me that the
air pollution by old diesel engines may not be negligible once they get
used in a relevant scale.

As long as we don't have something like pollution vouchers, all
money-efficiency calculations are way off, at least off my priorities.

Gerhard

2005\11\02@091302 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
In China, lots of companies and shops have one or more diesel engines just
to cope with the electricity shortage. GE is promoting wind power in China
as well. I do not think GE is promoting wind power In USA.

I do not think this is feasible in USA since the electricity generation
capacity is quite okay. Only the transmission system has some problems.
I hear that the power companies are not keen on the idea of home based
distributed power generation at all.

Regards,
Xiaofan

On 11/2/05, Gerhard Fiedler <spam_OUTlistsTakeThisOuTspamconnectionbrazil.com> wrote:
> Russell McMahon wrote:
>
> > [...] and home cogen using old diesel engines is starting to look
> > attractive.
>

2005\11\02@094154 by Mike Hord

picon face
> But you have to multiply that by an efficiency factor.

Only if you're using the electricity generated here for heating.

{Quote hidden}

That's brutal.  Where are you?
Now that I've done the math on this, I'm thinking I might start looking
into a couple of electric space heaters.  I have a 30 year old trailer home,
and the furnace runs non-stop for several hours a day during the worst
parts of winter.  If I could just let it get cool in the house, and then use
an electric heater to warm up in the evening, that might be better.

My pets might not like it, but they all have lovely fur coats on. ;-)

Mike H.

2005\11\02@133708 by Peter

picon face

On Tue, 1 Nov 2005, Mike Hord wrote:

> IF it's fairly cheap, there may be a market in placing several of these
> at different spots throughout a largish house, replacing one large,
> expensive furnace with several small, cheap ones, which also offset
> their cost by putting some power back into the house.

You do *not* put it inside. It has water pipes in and out to a remote
radiator. The box has a very high grade of insulation (double they say).
You can think of it as an outdoor a/c unit that just so happens to make
electricity.

3.5kW is about what's required to keep a room or two warm enough to live
in in the temperate zone.

It would be interesting to know if the device lowers its heat output if
the electrical load decreases. And if it does not, then how does it
re-convert the electrical output into heat (thoughts of simple immersion
heater built in).

> During the summer, of course, you'd either need to put it outside or run
> an additional air conditioner to offset its heat output.

Good point.

Peter

2005\11\02@135331 by Richard Prosser

picon face
Not to compare the Lister with a 2 stroke petrol engine - but have you
seen any comments on the $99 2stroke genset that supercheap autos are
advertising?
Only 350VA IIRC but even so $NZ99 seems very cheap.

RP


On 03/11/05, Russell McMahon <.....apptechKILLspamspam@spam@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> -

2005\11\02@140802 by Peter

picon face


On Tue, 1 Nov 2005, Rolf wrote:

> ... and you would need a sound-proof room to contain the noise it makes.

Actually these things should be fairly quiet. Honda makes some
valise-sized 1HP generators which are about as quiet as a sewing
machine. This cogeneration box should be even quieter.

> Not sure about the rest of you, but my AC unit *outside* is really loud, and
> this is supposed to be "on par" with that. It would be challenging to contain
> the noise in the basement, let alone with having usits spread around the
> house.

Since you don't put it inside it should be as bad (good) as an outdoor
a/c unit.

Peter

2005\11\02@140949 by Peter

picon face

On Wed, 2 Nov 2005, Byron A Jeff wrote:

> Electricity: $0.0517/khw
> NG: $1.679/therm

How come your power is so cheap ? Is this a regional thing ?

Peter

2005\11\02@143120 by Bob Axtell

face picon face
Peter wrote:

> On Wed, 2 Nov 2005, Byron A Jeff wrote:
>
>> Electricity: $0.0517/khw
>> NG: $1.679/therm
>
>
> How come your power is so cheap ? Is this a regional thing ?
>
> Peter

Wow! I pay $.11/kwh. where do you live, Byron?

--Bob

--
Note: To protect our network,
attachments must be sent to
attachspamKILLspamengineer.cotse.net .
1-520-777-7606 USA/Canada
http://beam.to/azengineer

2005\11\02@143854 by Alex Harford

face picon face
On 11/2/05, Bob Axtell <.....engineerKILLspamspam.....cotse.net> wrote:
> Peter wrote:
>
> > On Wed, 2 Nov 2005, Byron A Jeff wrote:
> >
> >> Electricity: $0.0517/khw
> >> NG: $1.679/therm
> >
> >
> > How come your power is so cheap ? Is this a regional thing ?
> >
> > Peter
>
> Wow! I pay $.11/kwh. where do you live, Byron?

I thought British Columbia had cheap power since we have a lot of dams
generating electricity.  But we're paying $0.0605 per kWh!

http://www.bchydro.com/policies/rates/rates757.html

Alex

2005\11\02@150424 by Herbert Graf

flavicon
face
On Wed, 2005-11-02 at 12:31 -0700, Bob Axtell wrote:
> Peter wrote:
>
> > On Wed, 2 Nov 2005, Byron A Jeff wrote:
> >
> >> Electricity: $0.0517/khw
> >> NG: $1.679/therm
> >
> >
> > How come your power is so cheap ? Is this a regional thing ?
> >
> > Peter
>
> Wow! I pay $.11/kwh. where do you live, Byron?

I don't know about Byron, but in Ontario, Canada the rates for
electricity are (all in CND$ of course):

$0.050/kWh (first 750kWh)
$0.058/kWh thereafter

Last year it was $0.043 and $0.047, but that rate couldn't last forever

Natural gas is $0.35325/cubic meter, I don't know how that converts to
"therm".

TTYL


-----------------------------
Herbert's PIC Stuff:
http://repatch.dyndns.org:8383/pic_stuff/

2005\11\02@152755 by Randy Glenn

picon face
According to http://www.spe.org/spe/jsp/basic/0,,1104_1732,00.html 1
cubic foot of natural gas is 1025 BTU, and 1 Therm is 100,000 BTU.

Then, thanks to the Google Calculator, we wind up with 1 cubic metre =
0.361975334 therm.

On 11/2/05, Herbert Graf <EraseMEmailinglist2spam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTfarcite.net> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> -

2005\11\02@153119 by M. Adam Davis

face picon face
I've got a few extension cords, and I'm only in Michigan.  Mind if I
buy some electricity from you?  Alternately we could start up Tesla's
experiments again.  (pun intended:)

Here we get (I believe) $0.09 for the first 500 or so kWH, then $0.11
thereafter.  Your $0.050[CAD] translates to $0.042[USD], which is less
that half what I'm paying.

Are your utilities regulated?  We went through deregulation several years ago...

-Adam

On 11/2/05, Herbert Graf <mailinglist2spamspam_OUTfarcite.net> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> -

2005\11\02@154204 by M. Adam Davis

face picon face
According to
www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/epm/table5_6_a.html
Michigan is slightly below average.  Kentucky has 6.5 cents per kWH,
while New York is at 15 cents per kWH.

It would be interesting to peg the cost of electricity against the
cost of living.  I understand that canada's cost of living is lower
than the US, but I don't know if it's significant, or by how much.
This could be one reason why electricity is cheaper (pay the workers
less)...

Obviously it's time to outsource our power needs.  We're already doing
it with oil, time to do it with electricity.

-Adam

On 11/2/05, M. Adam Davis <@spam@stienmanKILLspamspamgmail.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

2005\11\02@154338 by Herbert Graf

flavicon
face
On Wed, 2005-11-02 at 15:31 -0500, M. Adam Davis wrote:
> I've got a few extension cords, and I'm only in Michigan.  Mind if I
> buy some electricity from you?  Alternately we could start up Tesla's
> experiments again.  (pun intended:)
>
> Here we get (I believe) $0.09 for the first 500 or so kWH, then $0.11
> thereafter.  Your $0.050[CAD] translates to $0.042[USD], which is less
> that half what I'm paying.
>
> Are your utilities regulated?  We went through deregulation several years ago...

Hehe, yes, and no, it's kinda a weird situation.

Basically the price we pay is regulated. However, it is adjusted so that
the regulated price matches the actual average cost of power.

Sometimes they average lower, sometimes they average higher.

It's a complicated setup that is debated about constantly.

TTYL

-----------------------------
Herbert's PIC Stuff:
http://repatch.dyndns.org:8383/pic_stuff/

2005\11\02@155753 by M. Adam Davis

face picon face
And here's a long term bet with some links to the dept of energy.
Apparantly inflation has been groing faster than the cost of
electricity.  Therefore electricity is cheaper now than it was last
year, in adjusted 1995 dollars.  The dept. of energy indicates that it
will continue to fall through 2007.

So I suppose I shouldn't complain.  Would still be nice to have sub
$0.05/kWH electricity though.

Then you look a solar power.  About $4 per watt for an average panel,
new.  Over a year you get perhaps 4000 good solar hours (10 hours a
day is 3650 hours).  So you are getting 4kWH per year out of a $4
investment.  About 10 times the cost of electricity.  After
installtion and all the other equipment needed you're still looking at
a 15 year payback, at which point the solar panel might be running at
80% efficiency, if it's still running at all.

-Adam


On 11/2/05, M. Adam Davis <RemoveMEstienmanTakeThisOuTspamgmail.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>

2005\11\02@155901 by M. Adam Davis

face picon face
I should consider linking to the bet:

http://www.longbets.org/117

-Adam
On 11/2/05, M. Adam Davis <RemoveMEstienmanspamTakeThisOuTgmail.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

2005\11\02@170047 by olin piclist

face picon face
Randy Glenn wrote:
> According to http://www.spe.org/spe/jsp/basic/0,,1104_1732,00.html 1
> cubic foot of natural gas is 1025 BTU, and 1 Therm is 100,000 BTU.
>
> Then, thanks to the Google Calculator, we wind up with 1 cubic metre =
> 0.361975334 therm.

This doesn't make any sense since the volume doesn't specify the mass of
methane you're buying, but the amount of energy you get from burning it is
proportional to the mass.


******************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, (978) 742-9014.  #1 PIC
consultant in 2004 program year.  http://www.embedinc.com/products

2005\11\02@222039 by Jim Korman

flavicon
face
Olin Lathrop wrote:
> Randy Glenn wrote:
>
>>According to http://www.spe.org/spe/jsp/basic/0,,1104_1732,00.html 1
>>cubic foot of natural gas is 1025 BTU, and 1 Therm is 100,000 BTU.
>>
>>Then, thanks to the Google Calculator, we wind up with 1 cubic metre =
>>0.361975334 therm.
>
>
> This doesn't make any sense since the volume doesn't specify the mass of
> methane you're buying, but the amount of energy you get from burning it is
> proportional to the mass.
>
>
> ******************************************************************
> Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, (978) 742-9014.  #1 PIC
> consultant in 2004 program year.  http://www.embedinc.com/products

My reference gives around 1000 BTU/ft^3 at standard atmospheric
pressure. And since natural gas is delivered at low gauge pressure
that value is pretty close. On my gas bill there is always a pressure
correction factor applied to the usage.

Jim

2005\11\02@234139 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
> Not to compare the Lister with a 2 stroke petrol engine - but have
> you
> seen any comments on the $99 2 stroke genset that supercheap autos
> are
> advertising?
> Only 350VA IIRC but even so $NZ99 seems very cheap.


I purchased a 700 watt nominal petro genset recently for $NZ99 from
Benchmark. They said it was their standard price (!!!).

The problems with this as a competitor with mains power are:

- Hours before maintenance would be low.
- Petrol costs about 50% more than diesel for same energy content.

Say unit would run for 1000 hours with no maintenance.
It may well not last that long ! :-(
$99/$1000 = $0.10/hour.
Assume 750 watt electrical and 80% efficient overall and 10 kWh/litre
for petrol and $1.40/l and 15% of output is electrical.

All these assumptions are wrong !!!! :-)
But:

Output = 0.75/.15 = 5 kW (750 W elec, 4250 W heat).
Energy in is 5 kW/0.8 = 5.25 kW.
Fuel/hr = 5.25/10 = 0.525 l
Fuel cost/hr = .525 x $1.40 =~ $0.75

If we throw unit away at 1000 hrs cost per hour is $0.85/hr =
$0.17/unit

That's about the cost of electricity per unit now !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Use a Lister where we don't throw it away (but it costs $500 - $1000
to find the parts to start with) and the incremental cost is below
mains electricity cost.

I'm SURE the above is quite wrong in places (quite apart from possible
errors) but it's given me enough food for thought to see what my
genset will actually accomplish. Being able to use the heat is a major
issue. Good hot water storage would help. .

Being able to store electric power would be useful but battery costs
get nasty.

Shame that electricity component is typically so small.




       RM


2005\11\03@065545 by Byron A Jeff

face picon face
On Wed, Nov 02, 2005 at 08:41:53AM -0600, Mike Hord wrote:
{Quote hidden}

Georgia, US. NG is a deregulated industry here. So we have a "free" market.
Of course prices are so close between marketers that some type of collusion is
going on.

> Now that I've done the math on this, I'm thinking I might start looking
> into a couple of electric space heaters.  I have a 30 year old trailer home,
> and the furnace runs non-stop for several hours a day during the worst
> parts of winter.  If I could just let it get cool in the house, and then use
> an electric heater to warm up in the evening, that might be better.

I'm thinking about buying a couple or three electric space heaters until I can get
this furnace replaced. Fortunately it's been unseasonably warm so far.

BAJ

2005\11\03@071701 by Byron A Jeff

face picon face
On Wed, Nov 02, 2005 at 10:11:22PM +0200, Peter wrote:
>
> On Wed, 2 Nov 2005, Byron A Jeff wrote:
>
> >Electricity: $0.0517/khw
> >NG: $1.679/therm
>
> How come your power is so cheap ? Is this a regional thing ?

Three reasons. The first is that electricity is a regulated industry here. So all
price changes must go through an elected public service commission. The second is
that electricity in the area is generated with coal and nuclear, whose prices and
production have not been affected by the hurricanes which have thrashed the Gulf
coast in the last couple of months. Finally as I stated in my first post, I'm using
a Time of Use rate system that prices the kwh based on the time that you use it.
Off peak times, which includes all winter, are priced as above. However in peak
times, which is 2-7 PM during the summer months of June/September, the price
soars to $0.20/kwh! That's a problem that I have 8 months to figure out. Even during
the summer it's worthwhile because the off peak price outside of the 2-7PM window
is nearly $0.03/kwh cheaper than the standard rate.

I have a twofold basic gameplan for dealing with peak hours. First is energy
timeshifting. Simply put I'll store energy in batteries during the 19 off peak
hours/day and use the battery bank during the 5 on peak hours/day. The second
is that the primary peak hours load is cooling. I'm been thinking up alternative
cooling strategies for peak hours. My current off the wall idea is using a freezer
full of ice as a heat exchanger, along with an automotive heat core/blower combo to
cool the air. So the only power requirements would be for the pumps and the fans,
which can be handled (I think) by a sufficiently powerful battery bank. I can use
the normal central air to cool the house during off peak, possibly even loading up
a bit in the late morning/early afternoon hours, and using the alternative cooling
during the peak hours with off grid power.

I've also thought about using some artificial shading with greenhouse sunshade to
keep the sun from beating on the house during the middle of the day. Along with the
increased insulation and weatherstripping that I'm already putting in, I can get
away without running the central air for 5 hours/day in the summer.

It's a project that I have all winter to work on. I just need to be ready by June 1
of next year.

BAJ

2005\11\03@072359 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
Russell McMahon wrote:

> I purchased a 700 watt nominal petro genset recently for $NZ99
> Say unit would run for 1000 hours with no maintenance.
> $99/$1000 = $0.10/hour.
> Assume 750 watt electrical and 80% efficient overall and 10 kWh/litre
> for petrol and $1.40/l and 15% of output is electrical.
> Output = 0.75/.15 = 5 kW (750 W elec, 4250 W heat).
> Energy in is 5 kW/0.8 = 5.25 kW.
> Fuel/hr = 5.25/10 = 0.525 l
> Fuel cost/hr = .525 x $1.40 =~ $0.75

So far I follow you...

> If we throw unit away at 1000 hrs cost per hour is $0.85/hr =
> $0.17/unit
>
> That's about the cost of electricity per unit now

Russell, what is "unit" in this context? I thought it meant a unit of the
generator, but then the numbers don't make sense to me. What does a cost
per unit ($0.17/unit) mean?

Calculating the cost of electricity according to your numbers, I get:
TCO (based on 1000 h): 850 NZD
Electric energy produced: 750 kWh
TCO per electric energy produced: 850 NZD/750 kWh = 1.13 NZD/kWh

Gerhard

2005\11\03@132513 by Peter

picon face


On Thu, 3 Nov 2005, Richard Prosser wrote:

> Not to compare the Lister with a 2 stroke petrol engine - but have you
> seen any comments on the $99 2stroke genset that supercheap autos are
> advertising?
> Only 350VA IIRC but even so $NZ99 seems very cheap.

Well here is the first F****g Lister clone I have ever seen. I wonder
who counseled them about the name ? Must have been a well-traveled
Englishman who suggested it.

http://www.otherpower.com/fuking.html

(sorry, can't cense the URL, you would never find it on Google if I
misspelled it - among the many hits)

sorry, I could not resist,

Peter

2005\11\03@133610 by Richard Prosser

picon face
Gerhard,
A "unit" refers to  the unit of power measurement - 1 unit = 1kw/hr.

This may be an NZ / UK usage. I/m not sure where it came from but it
is commonly used here.

Richard P

On 04/11/05, Gerhard Fiedler <listsEraseMEspam.....connectionbrazil.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> -

2005\11\03@140340 by Peter

picon face

On Thu, 3 Nov 2005, Byron A Jeff wrote:

> Off peak times, which includes all winter, are priced as above. However in peak
> times, which is 2-7 PM during the summer months of June/September, the price
> soars to $0.20/kwh! That's a problem that I have 8 months to figure out. Even during
> the summer it's worthwhile because the off peak price outside of the 2-7PM window
> is nearly $0.03/kwh cheaper than the standard rate.

Ouch. Ok.

> the normal central air to cool the house during off peak, possibly even loading up
> a bit in the late morning/early afternoon hours, and using the alternative cooling
> during the peak hours with off grid power.

You could look into a brick pile heat storage device. Essentially you
fill a basement room with perforated brick and arrange for it to be
chilled by the a/c when off peak. At peak you run air through the brick
pile which is now very cold and the a/c is shut off. This is not
necessarily very hygienic however. Another trick would be to put the a/c
condenser in/spray with water from your (shaded) pool.

> I've also thought about using some artificial shading with greenhouse sunshade to
> keep the sun from beating on the house during the middle of the day. Along with the
> increased insulation and weatherstripping that I'm already putting in, I can get
> away without running the central air for 5 hours/day in the summer.

There are alot of resources on heat regulation using landscaping.
Sunshading should work also I read that moving a tree or two can help.

Peter

2005\11\04@065130 by Gerhard Fiedler

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{Quote hidden}

Richard Prosser wrote:

> A "unit" refers to  the unit of power measurement - 1 unit = 1kw/hr.

Oh, thanks -- I take this to be kWh (kW * h rather than kW / h, right? :)

I guess then the number would be 0.17 NZD/kWh _total_ energy output -- but
this can't really be compared easily to electric energy prices.

Gerhard

2005\11\04@152445 by Richard Prosser

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> Oh, thanks -- I take this to be kWh (kW * h rather than kW / h, right? :)
>
> I guess then the number would be 0.17 NZD/kWh _total_ energy output -- but
> this can't really be compared easily to electric energy prices.

Yes,- sorry kW.hr.

RP

2005\11\08@132923 by Byron A Jeff

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On Thu, Nov 03, 2005 at 10:05:16PM +0200, Peter wrote:
>
> On Thu, 3 Nov 2005, Byron A Jeff wrote:
>
> >Off peak times, which includes all winter, are priced as above. However in
> >peak
> >times, which is 2-7 PM during the summer months of June/September, the
> >price
> >soars to $0.20/kwh! That's a problem that I have 8 months to figure out.
> >Even during
> >the summer it's worthwhile because the off peak price outside of the 2-7PM
> >window
> >is nearly $0.03/kwh cheaper than the standard rate.
>
> Ouch. Ok.

Agreed. I decided the roll the dice on it though.

{Quote hidden}

The condenser can't be run during peak periods. I could afford to run the
fan. Using the freezer full of ice is essentially the same idea. Water is
a much more compact thermal load than bricks/rocks. Also liquid transfers
heat better than air.

{Quote hidden}

Sunshade can be used with discretion. Put it up when you need it, take it down
when you don't. Also sunshade doesn't drop leaves in the fall.

BAJ

2005\11\08@133702 by Howard Winter

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flavicon
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Byron,

(This reply is late, but they say that Winter will be late this year... :-)

On Thu, 3 Nov 2005 07:17:00 -0500, Byron A Jeff wrote:

> On Wed, Nov 02, 2005 at 10:11:22PM +0200, Peter wrote:
> >
> > On Wed, 2 Nov 2005, Byron A Jeff wrote:
> >
> > >Electricity: $0.0517/khw
> > >NG: $1.679/therm

Stone me, that electricity really is cheap!  Here in the UK gas is priced in kWh, so it's much easier to compare with electricity.  We've just had gas and electricity price increases, but gas is still much cheaper than electricity.

{Quote hidden}

Gas here is UK£0.0317 per kWh (US$0.551 - nearly the same as your electricity!).
I have "Economy 7" electricity metering, which means that from 00:00 to 07:00 (with a bit of jitter caused by the timeswitch) I pay UK£0.0345 per kWh (US$0.0601), but for the rest of the time it's more than three times that, UK£0.1125 (US£0.196).  So whereas you have 5 hours/day of "peak" pricing for 4 months of the year, we have it for 17 hours/365.  
However, after a certain consumption at the "peak" rate during a billing period (usually a quarter), it drops to UK£0.088 (US$0.153), so whereas yours gets more expensive if you use more, ours gets cheaper!

> I have a twofold basic gameplan for dealing with peak hours. First is energy
> timeshifting. Simply put I'll store energy in batteries during the 19 off peak
> hours/day and use the battery bank during the 5 on peak hours/day.
I did consider storing the cheap night electricity in batteries and using it from them during the day, but the arithmetic is against it, especially since the cost/life of batteries would be pretty horrendous.  Your 5/19 pattern makes it much more feasible than our 17/7.

>The second
> is that the primary peak hours load is cooling. I'm been thinking up alternative
> cooling strategies for peak hours. My current off the wall idea is using a freezer
> full of ice as a heat exchanger, along with an automotive heat core/blower combo to
> cool the air. So the only power requirements would be for the pumps and the fans,
> which can be handled (I think) by a sufficiently powerful battery bank. I can use
> the normal central air to cool the house during off peak, possibly even loading up
> a bit in the late morning/early afternoon hours, and using the alternative cooling
> during the peak hours with off grid power.
Of course you have the advantage that peak cooling demand is also peak insolation, so solar panels would be a better match there than here, where evenings are the peak for domestic demand.
Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England

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