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'[OT]:Hmmmmm'''
2000\10\31@184111 by Russell McMahon

picon face
>I never give my name and address on any purchase
>that isn't delivered.  I work hard all day and feel no need to carry my
work
>around with me in a PDA or cell phone when I leave in the evening.  I
>suspect most of the data collected is harmless and used for inane, if
>annoying, purposes.  But there is no guarantee and I can see no good reason
>to help someone swell the database that defines my profile whether it's
>harmless or not.


I went to pick up a Pitza a few days ago.
I paid cash.
They asked me for my name.
Then they asked for my telephone number. I told them it was none of their
business but I also asked why. They explained that they had a new system to
allow reordering as per last order, complaint tracking etc. No doubt also
building a sales profile but they didn't mention that. I gave them my
number. My Pitza buying isn't going to make them rich but now the
authorities will know where the Pitza bomb came from. .

>Whether I'm a terrorist, a pervert, or just another gray face in the crowd
>is my business.  And I intend to keep it that way.


That's fine as long as your gray face activities don't infringe on the
freedoms of others. As long as all gray face afficionados indeed did keep it
their own business it would be OK. Given that 2 out of 3 of the above
activities (and possibly no 3 as well ? :-) ) are in fact NOT by definition
solely the business of the doers by ANYONE's standards *, makes them fair
game for being tracked. Part of the freedom to live in any society (be it
home of the brave or Serbia or ...)  lies in balancing our rights against
the rights of all the other freedom seekers. But then, of course, you know
that :-)

I'll tolerate a degree (but only a degree) of limitation of my freedoms to
keep the terrorists at least partially at bay. I do seem to see a lot of
gray faces around of late (that was GRAY, wasn't it) though so maybe the
system isn't working as well as it ought.


RM.

* - Terrorism by definition is the act of inflicting unwelcome attention on
others.
Perverts can arguably act in a vacuum but as the term is often used it
reflects an activity similar in nature and intent to terrorism.
Dunno about gray faces.

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2000\10\31@221941 by Mark Walsh

flavicon
face
> That's fine as long as your gray face activities don't infringe on the
> freedoms of others. As long as all gray face afficionados indeed
> did keep it
> their own business it would be OK. Given that 2 out of 3 of the above
> activities (and possibly no 3 as well ? :-) ) are in fact NOT by
> definition
> solely the business of the doers by ANYONE's standards *, makes them fair
> game for being tracked. Part of the freedom to live in any society (be it
> home of the brave or Serbia or ...)  lies in balancing our rights against
> the rights of all the other freedom seekers. But then, of course, you know
> that :-)
>


I certainly agree when someone's activities infringe on others.  But the
case I described was book store sales records being subpoenaed.  The labels
are attached to a person, not on the basis of their actions, but on the
basis of their reading material.  We are treading dangerously close to
thought crime here.

> I'll tolerate a degree (but only a degree) of limitation of my freedoms to
> keep the terrorists at least partially at bay. I do seem to see a lot of
> gray faces around of late (that was GRAY, wasn't it) though so maybe the
> system isn't working as well as it ought.
>
>
> RM.

The terrorists are winning when we begin to limit our freedom.  There is a
public clamor to incrementally surrender a little more control over our own
lives every time some zealot or just your 'normal crazy' with a gun or bomb
pulls a stunt.  I don't have a solution for society at large, but I can make
it a little more difficult to whittle away my personal liberty.

Mark
(the third gray face from the right)

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'[OT]:Hmmmmm'''
2000\11\01@071411 by Russell McMahon
picon face
>The terrorists are winning when we begin to limit our freedom.  There is a
>public clamor to incrementally surrender a little more control over our own
>lives every time some zealot or just your 'normal crazy' with a gun or bomb
>pulls a stunt.  I don't have a solution for society at large, but I can
make
>it a little more difficult to whittle away my personal liberty.


Yep. I think that's a party of standard terrorist procedure. You can't do
enough damage usually against your prime target but you can make the prime
target act so oppressibvely that Joe Average (with a gray face?) will rise
up and demand they give in to whatever the demands are so that their life
can return to normal. Doesn't seem to work well on British Bulldogs though
:-).

Our new driving licence has caused much outcry here - nary a terrorist in
sight but its m,eant to make it harder for unlicenced people to drink and
drive unidentified - it will probably work but the stirrers and civil
libertarians have been up in arms. Amongst other things they have a
digitized photo thereon which is also stored of course in a data base. The
aforementioned reckon that it is only a matter of time before this will be
used for much wider purposes as a government ID and even sold to private
sources or generally abused. They may yet be proved correct but mine won't
be - at least not usefully anyway - even my mother, literally, doesn't
recognise it as me :-).




Russell

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2000\11\01@075211 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>They may yet be proved correct but mine won't
>be - at least not usefully anyway - even my mother, literally, doesn't
>recognise it as me :-).

But does it have enough recognisable features on it for a camera to match you to
a database, or even worse, declare you to be on the FBI top ten list???

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2000\11\01@191327 by Russell McMahon

picon face
>>They may yet be proved correct but mine won't
>>be - at least not usefully anyway - even my mother, literally, doesn't
>>recognise it as me :-).
>
>But does it have enough recognisable features on it for a camera to match
you to
>a database, or even worse, declare you to be on the FBI top ten list???


No (I think)

I should send you a copy :-)
I decided to be in stirring mode.
No real anti-establishment aim - seemed like fun given all the outcry.

Grew a beard and hair for 4 months.
Day of photo I razor shaved head in middle. left long sideboards/burns and
brushed beard, mustache and side hair out to be as fluffy as possible.
Good hard cool stare at camera and any biker would be proud of the result.
Man do I look mean :-)
Couldn't bear to be seen in public like this - even though I've got to the
relatively unembarrassable stage.
Shaved off beard and rest of hair and became a cue ball until it all grew
back to "normal".
Arguably the facial features such as nose would be enough for a computer but
I think most would reject the image and certainly most people would.
It makes a great ID when I'm asked for it in stores etc!!!
I explain that it's my fun ID and nobody has turned it down yet.


RM

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2000\11\01@191339 by Russell McMahon

picon face
Bruce sed -
>> That was pretty interesting, but I browsed the source a bit: I think I'd
>> need to read about the technology somewhere other than a wacko-Christian
>web site.  "World Net Daily" my foot.

& Mark sed
>(Perhaps this is futile, but here goes...)
>I don't make any claims for the website, Christian or not, but for my
money,
>you'll find a lot more truth here than in most of the mainstream media.


Mark,

I sympathise with what you feel about Bruce's comment but we are all in
danger of Big Brother's wrath in this matter if we let ourselves start to
get personal on a subject like this - in this instance BB is named James
Newton (hi James :-)) and we are probably only a couple of exchanged posts
away from a flame war and suddenly two (three?) less PICList members
temporarily at least.

I thought about making some sort of laid-back response to Bruce's
terminology but decided the best response was none at all.
Bruce's throw-away comment was probably a bit less than wise in the context
but there are indeed wacko Christian sites out there along with all the good
ones as well as all the wacko non-Christian sites (of which there are vastly
more) and if a person doesn't deal in such things then they may well all
look much the same to him. I haven't looked at "World Net Daily" myself so I
can't comment on their bona-fides as an information source.

Bruce may even be prepared to acknowledge that the information was in fact
well reported in this instance?

regards

           Russell McMahon

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2000\11\01@191345 by Russell McMahon

picon face
>Did you make this up?  If not, whence cometh it?

>A NASDAQ-traded company has finally unveiled its long-touted and highly
>controversial "Digital Angel" -- a subdermal microchip implant designed not
>merely for keeping tabs on pets, but for widespread, worldwide use in
>tracking human beings.


Our local city council has been using injected "RFID" type devices for
animal registration purposes for some years. Don't know how this latest
"development" compares.



RM

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2000\11\01@192623 by jamesnewton

face picon face
WE DO NOT DISCUSS RELIGION ON THE PICLIST.

PERIOD. ALL STOP.

FINAL WARNING.

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{Original Message removed}

2000\11\03@025345 by Russell McMahon

picon face
Bruce said -
>Thank you Russell for your cool-headed responses.  Without speaking for
>anyone else, I suspect that your assumption that Andy intended only to
>incite is off the mark.


Yes, I was wrong.
I don't think I said that he was solely intending to incite but I was less
than fully cognisant of the genuinely inquiring aspect of his comments.
Even when hoping to be "cool headed" it's still all to easy to be less than
even handed :-(.
.
>Both you and he raise many interesting points, and I'd love to mine this
>area thoroughly in a more appropriate forum.

I hope to discuss the general issues raised offlist in the hope that it may
prove genuinely useful. Anyone else is most welcome to join in the fun.
No intention of brow-beating or cramming things down people's throats and if
anyone decides they don't want to discuss things further the conversation
will be dropped.

>Remember: electronics is changing your world...for good!


Mostly.
Is this meant to be a Delphic comment? :-)




regards


               Russell McMahon

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2000\11\03@110304 by Dan Michaels

flavicon
face
>
>>Remember: electronics is changing your world...for good!
>
>
>Mostly.
>Is this meant to be a Delphic comment? :-)
>

For good = for better, or forever?

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2000\11\03@164550 by Bruce Cannon

picon face
> >>Remember: electronics is changing your world...for good!
> >
> >Mostly.
> >Is this meant to be a Delphic comment? :-)
>
> For good = for better, or forever?

Yes!

Bruce Cannon
Style Management Systems
http://siliconcrucible.com
(510) 787-6870
1228 Ceres ST Crockett CA 94525

Remember: electronics is changing your world...for good!

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