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'[OT]: Hard disk motor for "Propeller Clock"'
2000\12\27@021504 by Bala Chandar

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In this PicList, there are quite a few experts in matters relating to
motors, robotics and PC hardware. My question is addressed to them.

I have a Seagate IDE 1 GB hard disk (ST 51080A) removed from a PC because of
media failure. But its spindle motor and drive electronics are in good
working condition. I have been particularly fascinated by Bob Blick's
"Propeller Clock" (http://www.bobblick.com) and I wish to check the suitability of
this hard disk motor for the project.

My problem is that when I connect the power supply cable (without connecting
the 40 pin cable) and switch on the SMPS, the spindle motor starts spinning
but after about 20 seconds, it invariably comes to a halt. I guess, this is
because there is no signal coming from the PC through the 40 pin cable. How
do I make it run continuously? The answer perhaps lies in tying one of the
40 pins to ground or +5V.

Any suggestions please?

I would highly appreciate helpful tips.

Thanks & regards,

Bala

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2000\12\27@030243 by Robert Rolf

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No, your problem is that the control electronics are trying to find
the 'servo' track on the media, and since it can't find it, it shuts
down
the drive as a safety measure. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with the
40 pin cable since the default for most drives is to spin unless
jumpered
to not do so, in which case they would not spin at all on power up.

You may be able to find a pin that changes state when spinning/not, but
it is most likely that the 3 phase drive for the motor comes from the
controller, so you're SOL.
Robert
(who has hacked many drives into 'spinners', but they were all sub
250MB)
and 'dumb' controllers).

Bala Chandar wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2000\12\27@115409 by Herbert Graf

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> I have a Seagate IDE 1 GB hard disk (ST 51080A) removed from a PC
> because of
> media failure. But its spindle motor and drive electronics are in good
> working condition. I have been particularly fascinated by Bob Blick's
> "Propeller Clock" (http://www.bobblick.com) and I wish to check the
> suitability of
> this hard disk motor for the project.
>
> My problem is that when I connect the power supply cable (without
> connecting
> the 40 pin cable) and switch on the SMPS, the spindle motor
> starts spinning
> but after about 20 seconds, it invariably comes to a halt. I
> guess, this is
> because there is no signal coming from the PC through the 40 pin
> cable. How
> do I make it run continuously? The answer perhaps lies in tying one of the
> 40 pins to ground or +5V.

   Actually it is probably way more complicated then that, a drive SHOULD
remain spinning even if it's IDE is not connected. Usually it stopping is
due to the magnetic heads not finding what they should, I don't see a way
around it. You will most likely have to drive the motor manually. TTYL

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2000\12\27@154453 by Jinx

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How many wires does the motor have ? I sorted the drive waves
out for 3-wire/3 coil Conner et al low-profile HDD motors (STC,
Sankyo etc) a couple of weeks ago and have them running, using
the HDD PCB components, anywhere from 5 to 55 revs/sec

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2000\12\27@162614 by Barry Gershenfeld

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>My problem is that when I connect the power supply cable (without connecting
>the 40 pin cable) and switch on the SMPS, the spindle motor starts spinning
>but after about 20 seconds, it invariably comes to a halt. I guess, this is
>because there is no signal coming from the PC through the 40 pin cable.

Maybe you could use the PIC to switch the power off and on for
100 ms every 20 seconds or so.  No one would notice.

Barry

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2000\12\27@170602 by David P. Harris

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Hi Jinx-
Do tell how :-)
David

Jinx wrote:

> How many wires does the motor have ? I sorted the drive waves
> out for 3-wire/3 coil Conner et al low-profile HDD motors (STC,
> Sankyo etc) a couple of weeks ago and have them running, using
> the HDD PCB components, anywhere from 5 to 55 revs/sec
>
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2000\12\27@171656 by David VanHorn

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At 01:21 PM 12/27/00 -0800, you wrote:
> >My problem is that when I connect the power supply cable (without connecting
> >the 40 pin cable) and switch on the SMPS, the spindle motor starts spinning
> >but after about 20 seconds, it invariably comes to a halt. I guess, this is
> >because there is no signal coming from the PC through the 40 pin cable.

All you gotta do is ground a lead..
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2000\12\27@182839 by Jinx

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part 1 2125 bytes content-type:text/plain; (decoded 7bit)

> Do tell how :-)

The FETs (T0250 cases) and 74LS06 (SMT) come off the HDD PCB.
These are older drives, circa 1987-93, about 1GB or less, newer drives
may have driver chips instead of FETs. The FETs run cool, motor gets
hot, not excessively so but for extended running it may be wise to put it
on a chassis or heatsink. It has to be accelerated to its final speed (which
you can hear on any drive when it boots up after a power-down). s/w
does the most important job, which is correct timing and phasing of the
FET drive. Follow each bit as it comes out of PortB to see how the
drive waveforms are reached and derive the bit pattern for clock-wise
rotation. Below is the pattern for CCW

------------------------------------------------------------------------

;hddmotor.asm - driver for 3-coil HDD motor
;                            Jinx 13/12/00

;PIC gets external clock from 4001 on a3 and changes FET-driving
;bit pattern. Internal clocking could use loops or timer IRQs

clock  equ porta.3    ;i/p clock

ee1  dbee 24h  ;xx 100 100   bits to go out of b0 to b5, step 1
ee2  dbee 36h  ;xx 110 110   step 2
ee3  dbee 12h  ;xx 010 010   etc
ee4  dbee 1bh  ;xx 011 011
ee5  dbee 09h  ;xx 001 001
ee6  dbee 2dh  ;xx 101 101

index rb       ;RAM byte for counter

entry    movlw  08h        ;...o iooo
        tris   porta
        movlw  00h        ;oooo oooo
        tris   portb
        movlw  80h
        option
        clrf   index
        movlw  24h
        movwf  portb

clocklo  btfss  clock      ;wait for ext clock to go high
        goto   clocklo

change   movf   index,w    ;get next bit pattern from EE
        movwf  eeadr
        call   readee
        movwf  portb

        incf   index,f
        movlw  06         ;loop for 6 EE locations
        xorwf  index,w
        btfss  zero
        goto   clockhi
        clrf   index

clockhi  btfsc  clock      ;wait for clock low
        goto   clockhi
        goto   clocklo    ;repeat output sequence

readee   bsf    rp0
        bsf    rd
        bcf    rp0
        movf   eedata,w
        return


part 2 6568 bytes content-type:image/gif; (decode)


part 3 105 bytes
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2000\12\28@002634 by Bala Chandar

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Thank you all for your response to my query regarding hard disk motor.

A few more observations may be of interest.

I have another hard disk. This is of 1.2GB capacity (Seagate ST51270A). In
this hard disk also, the head assembly has been removed. When I connect it
to the power supply (again, the 40 pin connector not used), the motor runs
continuously! I tested it for half an hour and switched it off. Does this
mean that the safety feature that shuts down the motor after 20 seconds is
not functional in this hard disk? In that case, how do I disable that
feature in the other hard disk?

In the 40 pin connector of the 1GB hard disk, pin 39 is initially high. When
the motor stops spinning, this pin briefly goes low and then goes high
again. But connecting this pin to Gnd or +5V through a 1K resistor did not
make the motor spin continuously.

In both the disks, there are 4 wires coming from the coils of the motor.
There is of course the possibility of using a PIC and additional hardware to
make the motor work. But I feel, when the onboard drive electronics which
are particularly designed for the motor are fully functional, why waste a
PIC for this purpose?

Any new thoughts on the matter?

Regards,
Bala

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2000\12\28@034844 by embedded

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On Thu, 28 Dec 2000 14:06:24 +0900, Bala Chandar wrote:

>Thank you all for your response to my query regarding hard disk motor.
>
>A few more observations may be of interest.
>
>I have another hard disk. This is of 1.2GB capacity (Seagate ST51270A). In
>this hard disk also, the head assembly has been removed. When I connect it
>to the power supply (again, the 40 pin connector not used), the motor runs
>continuously! I tested it for half an hour and switched it off. Does this
>mean that the safety feature that shuts down the motor after 20 seconds is
>not functional in this hard disk? In that case, how do I disable that

I saw the other post that said the safety function depends on the servo track or some
such thing.  I don't know about that but at least some units require an index pulse
before the timeout.

dak

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2000\12\28@045044 by Jinx

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> There is of course the possibility of using a PIC and additional hard
> ware to make the motor work. But I feel, when the onboard drive
> electronics which are particularly designed for the motor are fully
> functional, why waste a PIC for this purpose?
>
> Any new thoughts on the matter?
>
> Regards,
> Bala

Components such as ADC, logic, memory, solenoid, signal processing
ICs, FETs, caps, diodes, connector, etc that are worth more than a PIC.
It's not always known what caused the PCB to fail of course, pot luck
plays a part. The absolutely huge amount of PCBs dumped makes for
quite a good treasure hunt though and worth the effort

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2000\12\28@051332 by Bala Chandar

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Jinx wrote:
> Components such as ADC, logic, memory, solenoid, signal processing
> ICs, FETs, caps, diodes, connector, etc that are worth more
> than a PIC.
> It's not always known what caused the PCB to fail of course, pot luck
> plays a part. The absolutely huge amount of PCBs dumped makes for
> quite a good treasure hunt though and worth the effort.

As you have said, many of those parts are certainly worth more than a PIC.
But if you have salvaged those parts from dumped PC boards, then the PIC's
value becomes much higher.

It can of course be a good treasure hunt if you have the interest, time and
patience! I for one have them!

Bala

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2000\12\28@061234 by Jinx

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> As you have said, many of those parts are certainly worth more than
> a PIC. But if you have salvaged those parts from dumped PC boards,
> then the PIC's value becomes much higher.

How about to be just plain mean with power ? Or space ? Take the
example of the Subject line - an HDD board would look out of place.
And there's the challenge of back-engineering too. Sometimes it's
a yawn-mungous chore but there's nothing like that 0.1 second of
elation after days work on something that nobody else probably gives
a stuff about ;-)

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2000\12\28@150221 by Barry Gershenfeld

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>In the 40 pin connector of the 1GB hard disk, pin 39 is initially high. When
>the motor stops spinning, this pin briefly goes low and then goes high
>again. But connecting this pin to Gnd or +5V through a 1K resistor did not
>make the motor spin continuously.

>Any new thoughts on the matter?

>Bala

1. Pin 39 is called "drive active / slave present"  so it is used
to detect a second drive at powerup and also run the little drive
light on the front of the computer.

2. ATA (IDE) says that the drive should give up after 30 seconds
if it can't complete a diagnostic or detect the slave drive.
** Thought: if you have the controller board still on the drive,
make sure it isn't jumpered to expect a second drive.  Western
Digital is famous for this...has a "solo" position.

3. Pin 1 on the interface is the  -RESET signal.

Barry

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2000\12\28@190120 by Peter L. Peres

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>do I make it run continuously? The answer perhaps lies in tying one of the
>40 pins to ground or +5V.

No.

imho, strip the motor and build a driver using L298/297. It is usually a
two or three phase electronically switched permanent magnet motor. A 1M
drive might be old enough that the motor still be self-contained so all
you'll need will be a variable power supply.

Peter

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2000\12\28@234920 by Bala Chandar

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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Peter L. Peres [TakeThisOuTplpEraseMEspamspam_OUTACTCOM.CO.IL]
> Sent: Friday, December 29, 2000 3:25 AM
> To: RemoveMEPICLISTspamTakeThisOuTMITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Subject: [OT]: Hard disk motor for "Propeller Clock"
>
> imho, strip the motor and build a driver using L298/297. It
> is usually a two or three phase electronically switched permanent magnet
> motor. A 1M drive might be old enough that the motor still be
> self-contained so all you'll need will be a variable power supply.
>
> Peter

Thanks for your suggestion. I wish to try it out.

The hard disk motor is connected to the drive circuitry through a flat cable
(of 4 wires). Does this mean it is a 3 phase motor? Can you give details of
the schematic or the site that will provide full info on building a driver
using L298/L297?

Regards,
Bala

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2000\12\29@185631 by Peter L. Peres

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>4 wires

measure with a DVM. If there are two separate coils it is biphase if there
are 3 coils and 1 common then it is 3 phase wye. The latter is more likely
for small drives from portables. The L293 (? I am not sure about the
numbers anymore - check http://www.st.com who makes them) can drive a bipolar
motor. For 3 phase you need something else. Jinx's scheme may work for you
in this case. The best solution is to reverse engineer the driver on the
HDD board and 'short a wire to ground' as someone else has said ;-).
However, you do this at your own risk.

Peter

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2000\12\29@190403 by Peter L. Peres

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Bala, go to http://www.st.com enter 'L293' in the search window and a
number of application notes will appear. The fifth is called 'The L297
stepping motor controller'.

good luck,

Peter

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'[OT]: Hard disk motor for "Propeller Clock"'
2001\01\02@014708 by Bala Chandar
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Peter wrote:
> Measure with a DVM. If there are two separate coils it is biphase if
> there are 3 coils and 1 common then it is 3 phase wye. The latter is
> more likely for small drives from portables. The L293 (? I am not sure
> about the numbers anymore - check http://www.st.com who makes them) can drive
> a bipolar motor. For 3 phase you need something else. Jinx's scheme
> may work for you in this case. The best solution is to reverse engineer
> the driver on the HDD board and 'short a wire to ground' as someone else
> has said ;-). However, you do this at your own risk.

> Bala, go to http://www.st.com enter 'L293' in the search window and a
> number of application notes will appear. The fifth is called 'The L297
> stepping motor controller'.
>
> good luck

Thanks a lot Peter, for your guidance. I will try my luck after checking out
the ST site.

I already have a L293, but I don't know for which particular motor it is
used.
Can someone tell me whether the L293 is useful for a bipolar stepper motor
(like the one removed from a 3.5" floppy drive)?

Bala

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2001\01\02@023058 by Dan Michaels

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>Can someone tell me whether the L293 is useful for a bipolar stepper motor
>(like the one removed from a 3.5" floppy drive)?
>

L293 can handle up to about 600mA per channel if the chip
is heat-sinked well, and has 4 separate channels, which can
be configured as 2 H-bridges.

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2001\01\03@061950 by Alan B. Pearce

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>Does this mean that the safety feature that shuts down the
>motor after 20 seconds is not functional in this hard disk?
>In that case, how do I disable that feature in the other hard disk?

I suspect the difference is one disk is set up for energy saving mode, the other
is not.

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