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'[OT]: FORTH (Was: Is ?????? Was M$)'
2000\10\08@233117 by John Patrick

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From: Dan Michaels <spam_OUToricomTakeThisOuTspamUSWEST.NET>

>Bob Ammerman wrote:
>>>
>>> Naww, I think all those old Forth guys are long dead.
>>
>>I'm not dead yet! (homage to Monty Python, of course)
>>
>>Or perhaps, after Mark Twain: The reports of my demise are greatly
>>exaggerated.
>
>Ah, Mr. Forth, his very self - today's quiz:
>
>: WHATSIT CR 115 101 118 105 76 32 104 116 114 111 70 11 0 DO EMIT LOOP
;
>


OK, this piques my interest once again.

Where can I find a good tutorial on FORTH?  I've always wanted
to learn FORTH, as it seemed very microcontroller/embedded
friendly.

Anything on the web?  Any good (and I mean GOOD) books?

John
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2000\10\09@002538 by Bob Blick

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>OK, this piques my interest once again.
>
>Where can I find a good tutorial on FORTH?  I've always wanted
>to learn FORTH, as it seemed very microcontroller/embedded
>friendly.

You might try the FORTH Interest Group, http://www.forth.org

I have a FORTH rom for my Timex/Sinclair TS1000 computer. It is pretty
cool. Multitasking, windowing, and autobooting to your app. Of course, I
haven't used it in years, but it was pretty awesome at the time, a Z80 and
three other chips does it all.

Cheers,

Bob

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2000\10\09@005652 by xandinho

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>I have a FORTH rom for my Timex/Sinclair TS1000 computer. It is pretty
>cool. Multitasking, windowing, and autobooting to your app. Of course, I
>haven't used it in years, but it was pretty awesome at the time, a Z80 and
>three other chips does it all.

       Oba! Can I have a copy? :o)


--------------8<-------Corte aqui-------8<--------------

       All the best!!!
       Alexandre Souza
       .....xandinhoKILLspamspam.....interlink.com.br

--------------8<-------Corte aqui-------8<--------------

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2000\10\09@021659 by McMeikan, Andrew

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You know its funny but the old ZX81/TS1000 seems to be getting a lot
of mentions lately.

I know this is completely off topic but since the audience is of the
right qualities I thought I'd put the call out.

I am in the process of designing a ZX81 clone and am looking for
helpers.  One of the three chips in the original is a gate array that
does most of the video, in my clone I am using a Z180 and its in
built DMA so that a low chip count and simplistic approach can still
be made (bonus of timers, MMU, serial etc...), at some point though
these non-standards need incorporating into the original ROM.

This will be slightly non-trivial, hence the call for helpers.  Some
details up at http://www.opendesign.cx

       cya,    Andrew...

- {Original Message removed}

2000\10\09@042728 by Bill Westfield
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I've SEEN a web-publish ZX-80 clone, somewhere.  (The ZX80 was the SSI/MSI
version of the ZX81.)

I've got a ZX81 lying around somewhere, and wouldn't mind having a source
for the forth rom...

BillW

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2000\10\09@062006 by Russell McMahon

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>
>You know its funny but the old ZX81/TS1000 seems to be getting a lot
>of mentions lately.
>
>I know this is completely off topic but since the audience is of the
>right qualities I thought I'd put the call out.
>
>I am in the process of designing a ZX81 clone and am looking for
>helpers.  One of the three chips in the original is a gate array that
>does most of the video, in my clone I am using a Z180 and its in
>built DMA so that a low chip count and simplistic approach can still
>be made (bonus of timers, MMU, serial etc...), at some point though
>these non-standards need incorporating into the original ROM.
>
>This will be slightly non-trivial, hence the call for helpers.  Some
>details up at http://www.opendesign.cx


AFAIR the original ZX80 (prior to ZX81) used the Z80's block move for the
video transfer so you are perhaps moving back towards the original concept
:-)


RM

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2000\10\09@063038 by Andy Howard

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Blick" <EraseMEbblickspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTSABER.NET>
To: <PICLISTspamspam_OUTMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Monday, October 09, 2000 5:23 AM
Subject: Re: [OT]: FORTH (Was: Is ?????? Was M$)



> I have a FORTH rom for my Timex/Sinclair TS1000 computer. It is pretty
> cool. Multitasking, windowing, and autobooting to your app. Of course, I
> haven't used it in years, but it was pretty awesome at the time, a Z80 and
> three other chips does it all.


The impressive thing was that two of those three were the ROM and RAM,
everything else, keyboard, cassette, display graphics (well, "graphics" is
probably a bit of an exaggeration, but display anyway) were done in one
custom chip - unlike almost all home computers of the time which had acres
of discrete logic chips on board.


For those that missed the Sinclair/Timex experience in their youth:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/1/13785.html

Now you too can spend an hours typing in BASIC listings only to have the
(volatile) RAMpack fall off the back just as you near the end.  (We didn't
have stickyback Velcro in those days of course).

<thinks> Hmmm, a Z80 SBC, could be usefully hacked for other stuff too.


Or if you don't want to spend the money there are several ZX81 emulators
around including this free one written in Visual Basic...
http://freestuff.grok.co.uk/





.

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2000\10\09@105018 by Dan Michaels

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Andrew McMeikan wrote:

>You know its funny but the old ZX81/TS1000 seems to be getting a lot
>of mentions lately.
.....
>This will be slightly non-trivial, hence the call for helpers.  Some
>details up at http://www.opendesign.cx
>

I gave my ZX81 away long ago, but Alice Campbell "may" have one.

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2000\10\09@110922 by Dan Michaels

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John Patrick wrote:
>
>OK, this piques my interest once again.
>
>Where can I find a good tutorial on FORTH?  I've always wanted
>to learn FORTH, as it seemed very microcontroller/embedded
>friendly.
>
>Anything on the web?  Any good (and I mean GOOD) books?
>

Vesta Technology on Broomfield CO used to sell a Forth
SBC that used an Intel 196 chip.

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2000\10\09@154931 by w. v. ooijen / f. hanneman

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> AFAIR the original ZX80 (prior to ZX81) used the Z80's block move for the
> video transfer so you are perhaps moving back towards the original
concept
> :-)

The ZX81 stores the video in 'instruction space', I don't know about the
ZX80 though. When the procesor accesses the video part of the memory in a
M1 cycle (instruction fetch) the ASIC forces the data lines to a NOP
instruction (resistors in the data lines prefent frying of ASIC and RAM).
But the video shift register clocks in the original 'instruction'. A
special code (recognised by the ASIC) 'frees' the processor from this mode
and lets it do some usefull work during horizontal flyback (slow mode).
Nice trick! I have a defunct Timex1000 somewhere with an AZMIC assembler
development system that made it possible to do graphics....

Wouter

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2000\10\09@212911 by McMeikan, Andrew

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The special code is a halt (or anything else that asserts D6), there
is also some fancy counting of scan lines and looking up the
character generator involved. processing gets done in the vertical
retrace.

Truly a circuit to be admired, still got to have some progress, I
much like the idea of getting rid of those resistors!

       cya,    Andrew...

- {Original Message removed}

2000\10\11@162003 by Peter L. Peres

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>AFAIR the original ZX80 (prior to ZX81) used the Z80's block move for the
>video transfer so you are perhaps moving back towards the original
>concept :-)
>
>RM

I am not sure about the block move, I think it had a row of 32 NOPs (each
taking 4 3.25 MHz CPU clocks = 8 6.5 MHz system clocks = 8 pixels) for
active video followed by some cunning HALT+IRQ/NMI scheme for horizontal
sync. The schematic and the ROM are on the web.

I owned one ;-). It had a mindboggling 1K or RAM (2x2114) which was shared
by the display and the tiny BASIC interpreter's program, stack, and
variable area, and some junk. You could write long (100 line) programs
with a short display or short (20 line) programs with a full screen
display.

I think that the logic on the ZX80 can be replaced by a single Scenix
micro. Or a 20 MHz PIC. The ZX80 ran on a 6.5MHz ceramic filter (the kind
used for TV sound ;-). The chip count was of 12, including CPU, ROM, and 2
RAMs, if I am not mistaken.

Peter

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2000\10\11@175250 by Peter L. Peres

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><thinks> Hmmm, a Z80 SBC, could be usefully hacked for other stuff too.

The GameBoy is a Z80 SBC with LCD and built in battery compartment ;-) I
doubt that you can undersell it with a proper SBC. Ok, the IX, IY stuff is
gone, but there is a free C toolchain available that runs on Linux or
Windows...

Peter

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2000\10\11@180142 by David VanHorn

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At 08:52 PM 10/10/00 +0200, you wrote:
> ><thinks> Hmmm, a Z80 SBC, could be usefully hacked for other stuff too.
>
>The GameBoy is a Z80 SBC with LCD and built in battery compartment ;-) I
>doubt that you can undersell it with a proper SBC. Ok, the IX, IY stuff is
>gone, but there is a free C toolchain available that runs on Linux or
>Windows...

Is there a practical way to get code into it?
(without a licencing agreement from Nintendo)

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2000\10\12@034147 by Michael Rigby-Jones

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You can buy or build a flash cartridge and a programmer.  IIRC you can
actually hack a game cartridge as long as it contains the correct memory
controler chip.  The gameboy uses a banked addressing scheme to get > 64K
memory, and nintendo use a custom controller chip to perform the bank
switching.

All you could ever want to learn about the Gameboy can be found at Jeff
Frohweins excellent site at http://www.devrs.com/gb/  He also has quite a
bit of PIC stuff on there.

Mike

> {Original Message removed}

2000\10\12@042619 by Alan B. Pearce

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>Is there a practical way to get code into it?
>(without a licencing agreement from Nintendo)

The oscilloscope unit described in Elektor Electronics does exactly this just plugging into the ROM slot.

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2000\10\12@181017 by Peter L. Peres

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>Is there a practical way to get code into it?
>(without a licencing agreement from Nintendo)

HA! And how !

The GB uses a ROM cart, that is, a regular 8 bit EPROM and some chip
selection. There is at least one complete toolchain that runs on Linux.
Almost all programming information is on the web. The toolchain includes C
compiler and some libraries, as well as register level programming docs. I
have it but I do not have time to use it ;-( There is a simulator that
runs on X11 and other graphical systems. Nearly anything written in C for
CP/M (the ANSI C part at least) has a fair chance to run on a GameBoy.

Look on the web for GB-SDK or something. The following names appear in the
docs brought up by my search engine:

Marat Fayzullin, Pascal Felber, Paul Robson, Martin Korth, and Jeff
Frohwein, the latter having been seen on this very list some time ago.

Search the web ? If you don't find anything I'll look in my archive
disks. No me too's please, I connect by modem.

Peter

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