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'[OT]: Digital oscilloscope suggestions'
2004\07\02@052127 by Vitaliy

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Hi All,

I'm looking to buy a digital storage oscilloscope, and would appreciate your
advice in this matter.

The DSO will be used to measure signals from about 5Hz to about 1Mhz.
Ideally, it should be a light, battery powered device (it will often be used
in the field), with at least two channels.  PC-based scopes will be
considered, but a stand-alone version is preferred.

I found one in Phoenix (where I live):
http://www.web-tronics.com/os-310m.html  Has anyone had any experience with
the scope?

Your suggestions are appreciated!

Best regards,

Vitaliy

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2004\07\02@053827 by Luis Moreira

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Hi Vitaliy
Have a look at the Scopemeter from fluke.

regards
       Luis

-----Original Message-----
From: Vitaliy [spam_OUTpiclist2001TakeThisOuTspamHOTMAIL.COM]
Sent: 02 July 2004 10:22
To: .....PICLISTKILLspamspam@spam@mitvma.mit.edu
Subject: [OT]: Digital oscilloscope suggestions


Hi All,

I'm looking to buy a digital storage oscilloscope, and would appreciate your
advice in this matter.

The DSO will be used to measure signals from about 5Hz to about 1Mhz.
Ideally, it should be a light, battery powered device (it will often be used
in the field), with at least two channels.  PC-based scopes will be
considered, but a stand-alone version is preferred.

I found one in Phoenix (where I live):
http://www.web-tronics.com/os-310m.html  Has anyone had any experience with
the scope?

Your suggestions are appreciated!

Best regards,

Vitaliy

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2004\07\02@104538 by Gaston Gagnon

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Vitaliy wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> I'm looking to buy a digital storage oscilloscope, and would appreciate your
> advice in this matter.
>
> The DSO will be used to measure signals from about 5Hz to about 1Mhz.
> Ideally, it should be a light, battery powered device (it will often be used
> in the field), with at least two channels.  PC-based scopes will be
> considered, but a stand-alone version is preferred.

PC scopes:
Look at http://www.bitscope.com/ for two new models: BS50U and BS310U

Gaston Gagnon

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2004\07\02@214339 by Vitaliy

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Hi Luis,

> Hi Vitaliy
> Have a look at the Scopemeter from fluke.

http://www.fluke.com/SCOPEMETER/SELECTION_TABLE2.ASP?AGID=4&SID=14

Have you actually used one of the scopes pictured?  I'd love to hear about
the good and the bad.

Vitaliy


> {Original Message removed}

2004\07\02@220039 by Kyrre Aalerud

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How fast can one get a PIC to sample if one wanted to make a small pc-based
scope ?

I was thinking of using the paralell-port to communicate with the pic and
either transfer live data, or transfer a block of data captured from a
trigger-point and till a buffer is full.

Kyrre



----- Original Message -----
From: "Vitaliy" <piclist2001spamKILLspamHOTMAIL.COM>
To: <.....PICLISTKILLspamspam.....MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2004 3:43 AM
Subject: Re: [OT]: Digital oscilloscope suggestions


{Quote hidden}

> > {Original Message removed}

2004\07\02@223651 by Martin Klingensmith

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> How fast can one get a PIC to sample if one wanted to make a small
> pc-based
> scope ?
>

Hi Kyrre,
It is my understanding that PICs would not be quick enough for this
application. You would get better bandwidth from a soundcard - scope.

--
Martin K

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2004\07\02@224308 by Kyrre Aalerud

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So, what if I used a 8 bit paralell-readout DAC on the paralellport ?
Maby used the dac with the pic first to detect a trigger-edge, then clock
data straight in the paralell-port ?

Kyrre


{Original Message removed}

2004\07\03@020434 by Luis Moreira

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Hi Vitaliy

I used a previous version of the 120 series on my previous job. it was a
brilliant piece of kit, I am trying to get the company I work for now to by
the 190 series B or C. The 200 MHz bandwidth is good enough for the things I
do, the channels are completely isolated from each other which as I work
with HV is ideal, is battery powered (although batteries did not lasted long
do mainly to large screen, I bought a set of high energy AA batteries), easy
to carry around, the connection to the laptop is optical( bonus for HV
areas). probably http://www.lecroy.com and Tektronix do better bench based Scopes
but the fluke is a very good all rounder which you can carry anywhere with
minimum fuss that's why I love it.

hope it helps
regards
       Luis

{Original Message removed}

2004\07\03@075126 by Kyrre Aalerud

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Or, what about using a DSpic ?  they must be faster ?

Kyrre

----- Original Message -----
From: "Luis Moreira" <EraseMELuis.Moreiraspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTJET.EFDA.ORG>
To: <PICLISTspamspam_OUTMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2004 8:03 AM
Subject: Re: [OT]: Digital oscilloscope suggestions


> Hi Vitaliy
>
> I used a previous version of the 120 series on my previous job. it was a
> brilliant piece of kit, I am trying to get the company I work for now to
by
> the 190 series B or C. The 200 MHz bandwidth is good enough for the things
I
> do, the channels are completely isolated from each other which as I work
> with HV is ideal, is battery powered (although batteries did not lasted
long
> do mainly to large screen, I bought a set of high energy AA batteries),
easy
> to carry around, the connection to the laptop is optical( bonus for HV
> areas). probably http://www.lecroy.com and Tektronix do better bench based Scopes
> but the fluke is a very good all rounder which you can carry anywhere with
> minimum fuss that's why I love it.
>
> hope it helps
> regards
>         Luis
>
> {Original Message removed}

2004\07\03@080026 by Luis Moreira

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after processing the signal and transform it into something that you can see
I do not think so...

Luis

{Original Message removed}

2004\07\03@113129 by Kyrre Aalerud

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Transform ???
What are you talking about ?

The pic would run it's ADC as fast as it can, pumping the data into the
paralell port of a PC.    That's it.
No transforming, no calculations, no work at all.

I just wonder if I can sampel fast enough.

Kyrre

----- Original Message -----
From: "Luis Moreira" <@spam@Luis.MoreiraKILLspamspamJET.EFDA.ORG>
To: <KILLspamPICLISTKILLspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2004 2:00 PM
Subject: Re: [OT]: Digital oscilloscope suggestions


> after processing the signal and transform it into something that you can
see
> I do not think so...
>
> Luis
>
> {Original Message removed}

2004\07\03@130905 by David VanHorn

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At 05:34 PM 7/3/2004 +0200, Kyrre Aalerud wrote:

>Transform ???
>What are you talking about ?
>
>The pic would run it's ADC as fast as it can, pumping the data into the
>paralell port of a PC.    That's it.
>No transforming, no calculations, no work at all.
>
>I just wonder if I can sampel fast enough.

What's the fastest rate that your PIC can sample at?
What's the fastest thing you want to be able to see?

You'll need at least 10x faster sample rate, than the highest frequency you want to observe, if you want to know anything much about waveforms.

Nyquist says 2x, but that's just to see if there's something there.
If you want to see it in any detail, you have to sample a lot faster.

My older mixed mode scope has a bandwidth of 200 MHz (where the vert amplifier is down by 3dB), but samples at 50Gs/Sec on four channels.  It will take 30,000 samples on each of the channels, in a single shot measurement.

You'd need a lot of pics to pull that off :)

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2004\07\03@130905 by David VanHorn

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At 05:34 PM 7/3/2004 +0200, Kyrre Aalerud wrote:

>Transform ???
>What are you talking about ?
>
>The pic would run it's ADC as fast as it can, pumping the data into the
>paralell port of a PC.    That's it.
>No transforming, no calculations, no work at all.
>
>I just wonder if I can sampel fast enough.

A trick from the DSO world that might come in handy:
Use multiple ADCs, and start them at different times.
This way, you can get more samples per second than any single ADC can deliver.

Then just read them out in the order you started them.

I'm sure there are other uPs out there, with far faster ADCs than the Pic or AVR.

In the AVR, I can get to an ADC clock of 250kHz, (cheating just a little, and sacrificing accuracy), which gives me 4uS clock, and 13 clocks per conversion, so 52uS per sample. 19.23kS/sec, so with 10 points per cycle, good to almost 2kHz.

There is a "high speed" mode in the mega-8, but I looked at the data sheet, and there's no information on how much faster it is. (!) At least I couldn't find it in the data sheet. It draws more power, but that's ok here.

Assume that it's maybe twice as fast, so we could just get to 4kHz with moderate resolution.

I once tried to decode moderately complex analog waveforms with 7 samples per wave (MICR reader).. It wasn't a barrel of laughs.  I was also stuck with 6 bit resolution, and mechanical jitter of about 1 bit at irregular intervals.

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2004\07\03@132605 by Denny Esterline

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<snip>

> >I just wonder if I can sampel fast enough.
>
> What's the fastest rate that your PIC can sample at?
> What's the fastest thing you want to be able to see?

<snip>

> You'd need a lot of pics to pull that off :)
>

Let's not forget the speed of the p-port. IIRC isn't that limited to
~300k/sec?

Then you start looking at putting the data into a RAM quickly, then reading
it slowly.

I've been tossing that idea around in my head for some time now. A mixed
signal capture tool. CPLD for triggering and address generation, fast ADC,
high speed RAM, and a PIC to tie it all together and provide the interface.
Haven't got around to actually doing it though.  :o)

-Denny

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2004\07\03@132813 by Robert Rolf

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David VanHorn wrote:
> At 05:34 PM 7/3/2004 +0200, Kyrre Aalerud wrote:
>
> >Transform ???
> >What are you talking about ?
> >
> >The pic would run it's ADC as fast as it can, pumping the data into the
> >paralell port of a PC.    That's it.
> >No transforming, no calculations, no work at all.
> >
> >I just wonder if I can sampel fast enough.

If you want high speed sampling, then why hobble yourself
with a PIC's slow A/D. Just interface it directly to the
parallel port with some glue logic, and let the ECP mode
of the port do DMA for you.

If memory serves, there was an article in Everyday and Practical
electronics more than a year ago that used a FPGA and static RAM
with a PC parallel port to get a 500mHz digitizer.

{Quote hidden}

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2004\07\03@150231 by David VanHorn

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>
>I've been tossing that idea around in my head for some time now. A mixed
>signal capture tool. CPLD for triggering and address generation, fast ADC,
>high speed RAM, and a PIC to tie it all together and provide the interface.
>Haven't got around to actually doing it though.  :o)

Look at the ant-8 and ant-16 logic analyzers.
If nothing else, you COULD use them to capture the A/D data.
Inefficient, but probably workable.

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2004\07\03@152344 by Kyrre Aalerud

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I need about 500kHz or better resolution.  I'd actually like 2 MHz.

Kyrre

----- Original Message -----
From: "David VanHorn" <EraseMEdvanhornspamCEDAR.NET>
To: <RemoveMEPICLISTEraseMEspamEraseMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2004 5:53 PM
Subject: Re: [OT]: Digital oscilloscope suggestions


{Quote hidden}

deliver.
>
> Then just read them out in the order you started them.
>
> I'm sure there are other uPs out there, with far faster ADCs than the Pic
or AVR.
>
> In the AVR, I can get to an ADC clock of 250kHz, (cheating just a little,
and sacrificing accuracy), which gives me 4uS clock, and 13 clocks per
conversion, so 52uS per sample. 19.23kS/sec, so with 10 points per cycle,
good to almost 2kHz.
>
> There is a "high speed" mode in the mega-8, but I looked at the data
sheet, and there's no information on how much faster it is. (!) At least I
couldn't find it in the data sheet. It draws more power, but that's ok here.
>
> Assume that it's maybe twice as fast, so we could just get to 4kHz with
moderate resolution.
>
> I once tried to decode moderately complex analog waveforms with 7 samples
per wave (MICR reader).. It wasn't a barrel of laughs.  I was also stuck
with 6 bit resolution, and mechanical jitter of about 1 bit at irregular
intervals.
>
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2004\07\03@152802 by Kyrre Aalerud

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That's why I was thinking of reviving my old design where I would use a
external fast (uses matching network to get all 8 bits in a single
operation) 8-bit ADC with paralell readout, a bank of paralell loaded SRAM
and a pic to control both and communicate with host.

The data from the ADC would be commanded out on the bus by the PIC after
conversion is signaled to be ready.  At same time the memory would have been
addressed and set to write mode so that data would be latched straight in
from the bus after a minimum settling delay.
After the buffer is full, the PIC can transfer data to host at any rate it
wishes.

The ADC would also be used by the PIC before it starts filling memory to
look for the rising or falling flank and level to trigger on.

Kyrre


{Original Message removed}

2004\07\03@153009 by Kyrre Aalerud

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That's what i was going to do earlier too.
I even made a pcb for it in eagle.

Somehow soimething else cought my attention at that point and I put it
aside.

Kyrre

{Original Message removed}

2004\07\03@153217 by David VanHorn

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At 09:26 PM 7/3/2004 +0200, Kyrre Aalerud wrote:

>I need about 500kHz or better resolution.  I'd actually like 2 MHz.

Buy an inexpensive scope from ebay.
At least two channels, and good probes.

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2004\07\03@193919 by Kyrre Aalerud

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I needed a computer interfaced one.  (for grabbing waves to send to others
for duscussion.)
I already have a good "regular" 4 channel 100 MHz scope, 2 good probes and 2
cheap ones.

Kyrre


{Original Message removed}

2004\07\03@202146 by Robert Rolf

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Web camera with a focus dial. I use one all the time on my Tek 465's.
As long as all you need is 'discussion', it works well.
I have an old 3COM home connect, which is CCD not CMOS,
so it has good sensitivity, and long shutter times for
single shot capture (poor man's digital scope).

Robert

Kyrre Aalerud wrote:
>
> I needed a computer interfaced one.  (for grabbing waves to send to others
> for duscussion.)
> I already have a good "regular" 4 channel 100 MHz scope, 2 good probes and 2
> cheap ones.
>
> Kyrre
>
> {Original Message removed}

2004\07\03@223903 by Kyrre Aalerud

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and how can excel handle those images for statistical graphing ?

Kyrre

----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Rolf" <RemoveMERobert.RolfKILLspamspamUALBERTA.CA>
To: <PICLISTSTOPspamspamspam_OUTMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2004 2:14 AM
Subject: Re: [OT]: Digital oscilloscope suggestions


{Quote hidden}

others
> > for duscussion.)
> > I already have a good "regular" 4 channel 100 MHz scope, 2 good probes
and 2
{Quote hidden}

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2004\07\05@024951 by Luis Moreira

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exactly what I am talking about, The Pic ADC is not that fast and you have a
limit on how fast you can send the data to the PC, then you have to get a
program to get that data and display it like an oscilloscope. I think you
will find that the use of a system like this is very limited...

Luis

{Original Message removed}

2004\07\05@132711 by Dwayne Reid

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At 12:50 AM 7/5/2004, Luis Moreira wrote:
>exactly what I am talking about, The Pic ADC is not that fast and you have a
>limit on how fast you can send the data to the PC, then you have to get a
>program to get that data and display it like an oscilloscope. I think you
>will find that the use of a system like this is very limited...
>
>Luis
>
>>From: Kyrre Aalerud [spamBeGonekreaturespamKILLspamC2I.NET]
>>
>>The pic would run it's ADC as fast as it can, pumping the data into the
>>paralell port of a PC.    That's it.
>>No transforming, no calculations, no work at all.
>>
>>I just wonder if I can sampel fast enough.
>>
>>Kyrre

Have a look at Dan's approach at
<http://www.oricomtech.com/projects/ets.htm> .  He is able to get the
equivalent of 1 MHz sample rate and a useable 120 KHz response out of an
18f876 running at 20 MHz.

dwayne

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2004\07\05@140134 by hael Rigby-Jones

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{Quote hidden}

Cicuit Cellar had an article on an alternative method of subsampling using a
comparator and PWM.  The material that was the basis of the CC article is at
http://users.cableaz.com/~cappels/dproj/wfc/wfc.html

Regards

Mike

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