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'[OT]: Daft Pricing - HP printers'
2003\05\08@035843 by Russell McMahon

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From a friend.
These are $NZ so divide by not quite 2 for $US and Euro and 3 for GBP
(presumably)(although everything in the UK seems to cost more regardless.

GST is 12.5% here.

Liable to be a trojan ink-horse.
Wonder what battles there will be to refill them :-) ?


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2003\05\08@043449 by Picdude

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Noticed the same thing here last week.  I was looking for a cartridge for my trusty old HP Deskjet 500 (300dpi, B/W), which was US$29.  But for US$39, I can get a new HP printer that is colour, much higher dpi, and takes up less desk space.  Colour I don't really use, higher dpi might be nice, but less desk-space is a biggie for me.  Plus I'll have a 20Vac @ 2A power supply left over from the DJ500, which would make a good PS for my Tait programmer. :-)

Of course these printers go for about US$10 on Ebay, so it's not even worth my while to consider selling it.  But I'm sure the motors and mechanism would be fun to experiment with as well.

Printer pricing has become like cell-phones a few years ago ... it's free with a contract, where they expect to more than make their money back.  The money is in the ink cartridges, once you're committed to buying only that model.  And that's why there are running lawsuits between the printer mfgrs and 3rd party ink-cartridge and ink-refill makers.

Cheers,
-Neil.



On Thursday 08 May 2003 02:30, Russell McMahon scribbled:
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2003\05\08@095604 by Harold Hallikainen

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    Maybe consumers should refuse to buy printers where the supplies are single sourced. What printers ARE available with multiple suppliers of ink jet cartridges?

Harold


--- Picdude <spam_OUTpicdudeTakeThisOuTspamNARWANI.ORG> wrote:



Noticed the same thing here last week.  I was looking for a cartridge for my
trusty old HP Deskjet 500 (300dpi, B/W), which was US$29.  But for US$39, I
can get a new HP printer that is colour, much higher dpi, and takes up less
desk space.  Colour I don't really use, higher dpi might be nice, but less
desk-space is a biggie for me.  Plus I'll have a 20Vac @ 2A power supply left
over from the DJ500, which would make a good PS for my Tait programmer. :-)

Of course these printers go for about US$10 on Ebay, so it's not even worth my
while to consider selling it.  But I'm sure the motors and mechanism would be
fun to experiment with as well.

Printer pricing has become like cell-phones a few years ago ... it's free with
a contract, where they expect to more than make their money back.  The money
is in the ink cartridges, once you're committed to buying only that model.
And that's why there are running lawsuits between the printer mfgrs and 3rd
party ink-cartridge and ink-refill makers.

Cheers,
-Neil.



On Thursday 08 May 2003 02:30, Russell McMahon scribbled:
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2003\05\08@143803 by Bob Blick

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>> > HP have released a printer, the 3325, replaces the 6XX series
>> printers. Colour inkjet, comes with two cartridges (b/w & colour)
>> for
>> > $69...

Likely they are "starter" cartridges that run out very quickly. The last
HP inkjet (and now I mean the LAST one) I bought came with those. I barely
got 50 pages (mostly webpages) out of it before one of the carts was out
of ink. And it won't print if one of the carts is out of ink, even if the
document would only use the other cart.

Hint: EPSON

Cheers,

Bob

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2003\05\08@160130 by hard Prosser

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The new EPSONs  (C41s anyway) do the same.  - If you have an empty colour
cart.  it still won't print black - regardless of the amount of ink in the
black cart. It (doesn't) work the other way either! !!!!

Does anyone know anythink about resetting the chips in these cartriges?
Refilling the ink is easy - it's resetting the chip that is hard.
(Googleing didn't come up with anything useful last time I tried - at least
as far as the C41 items are concerned). But it must be possible - I just
got one refilled commercially.

Richard P




>> > HP have released a printer, the 3325, replaces the 6XX series
>> printers. Colour inkjet, comes with two cartridges (b/w & colour)
>> for
>> > $69...

Likely they are "starter" cartridges that run out very quickly. The last
HP inkjet (and now I mean the LAST one) I bought came with those. I barely
got 50 pages (mostly webpages) out of it before one of the carts was out
of ink. And it won't print if one of the carts is out of ink, even if the
document would only use the other cart.

Hint: EPSON

Cheers,

Bob

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2003\05\08@172805 by Dave VanHorn

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>
>Does anyone know anythink about resetting the chips in these cartriges?

Is there a list somewhere of which printers use "Chipped" carts?
I don't think I want to buy something like this, where the vendor is
actively working against me.

Last time I checked, my HP carts were costing me $6000/Gallon for ink.

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2003\05\08@192604 by Sean Alcorn - PIC Stuff

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On Friday, May 9, 2003, at 07:27 Australia/Sydney, Dave VanHorn wrote:

> Is there a list somewhere of which printers use "Chipped" carts?
> I don't think I want to buy something like this, where the vendor is
> actively working against me.

This post just gave me a horrible thought! I thought the chipped
cartridges idea was abandoned?

I just purchased a new Brother HL-5040 Laser Printer. It *seems* to
have the same engine as many other Brothers that we have purchased -
HL-1240, HL-1440 etc. and when I questioned the vendor, they said it
used the same drum unit and toner cartridge as the previous units.

When the printer arrived, the drum and toner units DID in fact look
exactly like our others. Same physical dimensions (and the printers all
have the same resolution), however the drum and toner cartridge have
different part numbers.

The very first thought that crossed my mind was that these were in fact
the same drum and toner units - only chipped. I quickly discarded this
thought, as I had thought that the chipped cartridge idea had been
abandoned. :-(

> Last time I checked, my HP carts were costing me $6000/Gallon for ink.

LOL - This is an interesting way to look at it! In the case of the
Brother Lasers, they offer quite a lot of machine for their pricing.
However a drum and toner unit will set you back almost as much as a new
printer! Based on Australian pricing, a new printer will cost say $449
with a toner cartridge around $130 and a drum unit around $250 ~ $260

By the time the drum unit has gone (18,000 copies, I think), you may as
well just shout yourself a new printer - or is that what they want us
to do? :-)

Regards,

Sean

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2003\05\08@193441 by Bob Blick

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Sean Alcorn - PIC Stuff said:

> I just purchased a new Brother HL-5040 Laser Printer. It *seems* to have
> the same engine as many other Brothers that we have purchased - HL-1240,
> HL-1440 etc. and when I questioned the vendor, they said it used the
> same drum unit and toner cartridge as the previous units.

Your Brother laser counts the pages and after a preset amount will ask for
a new drum and refuse to print until it gets a new one.

Many of them have a low-amperage fuse accessed by two terminals. The
printer senses the continuity of the fuse, resets the counter, and then
blows the fuse open.

If you put a plastic bag over the paper supply, or anything to keep dust
and dirt off the paper, the drum will last much longer than the printer
thinks it should.

Some Brothers have a key sequence to reset the counter, but I do not know it.

eBay is a good source for discounted new Brother toner and drums.

Cheers,

Bob

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2003\05\08@195009 by Picdude

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On Thursday 08 May 2003 16:27, Dave VanHorn scribbled:
> >Does anyone know anythink about resetting the chips in these cartriges?
>
> Is there a list somewhere of which printers use "Chipped" carts?
> I don't think I want to buy something like this, where the vendor is
> actively working against me.

Not familiar with the chipped cartridges, but won't they still be refillable -- drill hole, connect lightweight flexible tube *permanently* to cartridge, and other end of tube goes to large IV drip bag of ink. :-)


> Last time I checked, my HP carts were costing me $6000/Gallon for ink.

:-)
Have you ever calculated the price per gallon for cyanoacrylate (crazy glue) or loctite.  Ugh!

Cheers,
-Neil.

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2003\05\08@201517 by hard Prosser

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Yes - you can refill them easy enough, but unless the chip is reset, the
printer will not recognise it as a full cart. - and refuses to print.

Richard P



                   Picdude
                   <picdude@NARWA        To:     .....PICLISTKILLspamspam@spam@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
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On Thursday 08 May 2003 16:27, Dave VanHorn scribbled:
> >Does anyone know anythink about resetting the chips in these cartriges?
>
> Is there a list somewhere of which printers use "Chipped" carts?
> I don't think I want to buy something like this, where the vendor is
> actively working against me.

Not familiar with the chipped cartridges, but won't they still be
refillable
-- drill hole, connect lightweight flexible tube *permanently* to
cartridge,
and other end of tube goes to large IV drip bag of ink. :-)


> Last time I checked, my HP carts were costing me $6000/Gallon for ink.

:-)
Have you ever calculated the price per gallon for cyanoacrylate (crazy
glue)
or loctite.  Ugh!

Cheers,
-Neil.

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2003\05\08@213020 by Sean Alcorn - PIC Stuff

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Hi Bob,

This is interesting stuff. After receiving your email, I removed the
old DR-6000/TN-6600 unit from my printer and took it down to our
despatch office where we have the new HL-5040. As I suspected, it is
IDENTICAL in every way with the following exceptions;

1) It now has an additional third terminal instead of the original two

2) It has two large reinforced plastic "ears" that stick up and just
miss two similar plastic lugs. If you attempt to insert the original
(and cheaper) assembly, it is fouled by these strategically located
lugs. On my (slightly) older HL-1440, these lugs are removable.

> Your Brother laser counts the pages and after a preset amount will ask
> for
> a new drum and refuse to print until it gets a new one.

Yes. I know!!! :-)

> Many of them have a low-amperage fuse accessed by two terminals. The
> printer senses the continuity of the fuse, resets the counter, and then
> blows the fuse open.

Very simple, and quite smart. I wonder what the new third terminal is
for?

> If you put a plastic bag over the paper supply, or anything to keep
> dust
> and dirt off the paper, the drum will last much longer than the printer
> thinks it should.

We do this as standard for all our machines.

> Some Brothers have a key sequence to reset the counter, but I do not
> know it.

Simply replacing the fuse wouldn't do it? I'm sure that that's all the
recyclers are doing!

Will if the chips do become widespread, I am sure that some smart
people will come up with some little PIC12F675 based circuits that will
talk to the printers and tell them exactly what they want to hear! :-)

Cheers,

Sean

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2003\05\08@215012 by Bob Ammerman

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Some of the chipped cart systems are pretty simple to beat...

The cart is dumb as a brick. It just has a serial number in it.

The printer refuses to reuse any cartridge that it has already seen as being
empty.

So....

You just don' t reuse the cart in the same printer the next time around.
That is how some of the commercial refillers do it.


You _might_ also get away with something by refilling the cart before the
printer decides it is empty. But the printer might be counting picoliters
for each drop it prints and refuse to print anymore than a normal cartridge
full anyway.

Bob Ammerman
RAm Systems


{Original Message removed}

2003\05\08@215424 by Matt Pobursky

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Oh, it gets a lot worse with the HP cartridges (and others too, I
imagine)...

I've had some "interesting" experiences with the HP cartridges for
my HP1120c printer. I love the printer but it will be the last HP
inkjet printer I ever buy.

Example 1: I install a brand new set of cartridges (~$75 total for
tri-color and black). I print maybe 10 pages. My AC power goes out
while the printer is powered on. Power comes back on and now printer
has constant flashing yellow LED -- manual says replace cartridges!!!
Printer will not print again until I replace the cartridges, so it
seems that the power down/up cycle somehow blew the cartridge fuse
or??? I now keep my printer powered 24/7 on the UPS that runs my
computer.

Example 2: I install a "brand new" set of cartridges purchased locally
from an Office Depot store (they were running a special). After about
2 weeks, the printer stops printing (as in previous example). This
time, I actually called HP technical support. They asked me what the
date code was on the carts. Seems the cartridges had expired and the
tech support person said the printer won't print with "expired"
cartridges! The reason given was that the ink ages out "and may damage
the printer". Yeah, right! The only way I figure they can pull this trick
off is if the print driver sends the system time/date to the printer
which the printer compares to the date stamp in the cart and nukes the
cartridge if expired. I have also seen this behavior verified in an
article recently (maybe PC Magazine or PC World?).

I hate inkjet printers because of the cartridge issues. Needless to say,
a lot of inkjet printer users feel like they are bending over and grabbing
their ankles for the manufacturers.

Matt Pobursky
Maximum Performance Systems

On Thu, 8 May 2003 16:27:32 -0500, Dave VanHorn wrote:
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2003\05\08@221010 by Picdude

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So it either...
(1) measures the amount of ink left (doubt it), in which case we can refill before reaching empty, or
(2) assumes a max number of prints (dots or lines or pages, etc), which can lead to a situation where there's ink left, but it won't print, thereby significantly annoying the end-user.

I hate it either way,
-Neil.



On Thursday 08 May 2003 19:13, Richard Prosser scribbled:
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2003\05\08@221018 by hard Prosser

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Yeah - I think some of the HP ones do the serial number trick. The Epson
ones seem a bit smarter - but I can use refilled carts. once the chip is
reset - I just want to know how to reset it myself!

Richard P




Some of the chipped cart systems are pretty simple to beat...

The cart is dumb as a brick. It just has a serial number in it.

The printer refuses to reuse any cartridge that it has already seen as
being
empty.

So....

You just don' t reuse the cart in the same printer the next time around.
That is how some of the commercial refillers do it.


You _might_ also get away with something by refilling the cart before the
printer decides it is empty. But the printer might be counting picoliters
for each drop it prints and refuse to print anymore than a normal cartridge
full anyway.

Bob Ammerman
RAm Systems


{Original Message removed}

2003\05\08@221026 by Picdude

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On Thursday 08 May 2003 20:41, Bob Ammerman scribbled:
> Some of the chipped cart systems are pretty simple to beat...
>
> The cart is dumb as a brick. It just has a serial number in it.
>
> The printer refuses to reuse any cartridge that it has already seen as
> being empty.
>
> So....
>
> You just don' t reuse the cart in the same printer the next time around.
> That is how some of the commercial refillers do it.
>
>
> You _might_ also get away with something by refilling the cart before the
> printer decides it is empty. But the printer might be counting picoliters
> for each drop it prints and refuse to print anymore than a normal cartridge
> full anyway.

Oh boy....  I see a (black) market developing for chips that tweak the "printer" so that it skips counting.  Sort of like cable descramblers or performance chips for vehicles.

Cheers,
-Neil.

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2003\05\08@221034 by Russell McMahon

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Up market Canon's have refillable ink tanks.


       RM


>      Maybe consumers should refuse to buy printers where the supplies are
single sourced. What printers ARE available with multiple suppliers of ink
jet cartridges?

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2003\05\08@221414 by Picdude

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On Thursday 08 May 2003 20:53, Matt Pobursky scribbled:

> Example 1: I install a brand new set of cartridges (~$75 total for
> tri-color and black). I print maybe 10 pages. My AC power goes out
> while the printer is powered on. Power comes back on and now printer
> has constant flashing yellow LED -- manual says replace cartridges!!!
> Printer will not print again until I replace the cartridges, so it
> seems that the power down/up cycle somehow blew the cartridge fuse
> or??? I now keep my printer powered 24/7 on the UPS that runs my
> computer.

So there's the answer!  If the fuse *can* legitimately blow from a power surge or otherwise, and it's pretty full, then the mfgr (HP, etc) should replace it under warranty.  I doubt they will have a pro-rating program for this, so you should get a new cartridge.  In that case, just figure out how to blow the fuse when down to say 10% and keep getting new cartridges. :-)


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2003\05\08@221633 by Jinx

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> You just don' t reuse the cart in the same printer the next time around
> That is how some of the commercial refillers do it.

Yes, they do. Refillers are quite aware of the problem and are
always trying to keep up with mftrs. What might be the end of
this is commercial pressure on the mftrs. Bulk purchasers (eg
large companies) are moving away from "problem" cartridges
and letting mftrs know why

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2003\05\08@222336 by Matt Pobursky

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On Fri, 9 May 2003 11:28:57 +1000, Sean Alcorn - PIC Stuff wrote:
..snip...

> Simply replacing the fuse wouldn't do it? I'm sure that that's all the
> recyclers are doing!

> Will if the chips do become widespread, I am sure that some smart
> people will come up with some little PIC12F675 based circuits that
> will
> talk to the printers and tell them exactly what they want to hear! :-)

Aye and there's the rub! Some printer manufacturers are now suing cartidge
remanufacturers under the provisions of the DMCA, claiming infringment
on "Digitally copyrighted material", i.e. the contents of the chip.

Fargin' Bastiches!

Matt Pobursky
Maximum Performance Systems

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2003\05\08@232336 by Tom Messenger

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I studied this issue for a while... and forgot most of what I learned.
Except for one thing - CIS: continuous ink system.  It looks like lots of
hassle but in fact was easy to install and is easy to deal with. Especially
since the cost is around 10% of cartridge prices.

The hitch is that they are only made for certain printers.  Mainly Epson.

Mine consists of four plastic bottles with hoses that go to a "fake" cart
installed in the printer.  They hold 4 ounces each.  The original carts
contain something like .7 ounces and only deliver 2/3 of that or so the
story goes.  Color and black carts cost around $60 a pair in the US while
the ink for the CIS is $8 each for 4 ounces of CYMK(ie, $32 for a refill).
The best part is never having a print come out of the printer half baked
due to running out of ink in the middle.

I selected an Epson 900 a few years ago on the basis of great photo
printing and the availability of the CIS for it.  The newer Epsons that are
chipped can be dealt with also.  It seems that a cottage industry has
started up producing chips for the CIS units to fake out the printer.  On
my old 900, the printer counts inkjet pulses and after a while determines
that the ink is gone.  (actual carts will still have a good deal of ink
left.) In the CIS I have, you pull out a piece of plastic foam that
releases a micro switch and then push it back in.  The printer thinks you
have installed a new cart and turns off the "out of ink" lights and
continues to print.

Plus if you want, you can get a set of grey-gradation inks for printing
black-n-white photos that look superb.

If interested, check out: http://www.inkjetart.com/cis/  which, as far as I
know, deals only with Epson printers.

Tom M.

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2003\05\08@234619 by Sean Alcorn - PIC Stuff

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On Friday, May 9, 2003, at 12:14 Australia/Sydney, Picdude wrote:

> So there's the answer!  If the fuse *can* legitimately blow from a
> power surge
> or otherwise, and it's pretty full, then the mfgr (HP, etc) should
> replace it
> under warranty.  I doubt they will have a pro-rating program for this,
> so you
> should get a new cartridge.  In that case, just figure out how to blow
> the
> fuse when down to say 10% and keep getting new cartridges. :-)

Yes, but in his example, he couldn't be bothered to spend half a
morning sitting on the phone to HP. It was easier to jump in the car
and go buy new ink tanks at Office Depot. Those tanks (or another case)
were expired and the result was that he told 2000+ people on this list
that he will never buy another HP printer (perhaps product) again.

Very interesting. So will these big companies learn or just continue
down the same path?

Sean

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2003\05\09@011133 by Sean Alcorn - PIC Stuff

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On Friday, May 9, 2003, at 12:21 Australia/Sydney, Matt Pobursky wrote:

> Aye and there's the rub! Some printer manufacturers are now suing
> cartidge
> remanufacturers under the provisions of the DMCA, claiming infringment
> on "Digitally copyrighted material", i.e. the contents of the chip.

I was referring to the little guy in an alley that you hand your son's
playstation to and it comes back a few days later being able to play
all country's games and all region DVDs :-)

Sean

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2003\05\09@034609 by Peter L. Peres

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>  Maybe consumers should refuse to buy printers where the supplies are
>single sourced. What printers ARE available with multiple suppliers of
>ink jet cartridges?

None that I know of but the printer I hang on to (Olivetti inkjet) has
refillable cartridges. If you only use b/w you can live for quite a while
out of refilled cartridges. The print quality is slightly lower (more
splatter), but what would you expect.

Another option is to buy a second hand 'everlasting' office printer like a
HP Laserjet 3 4 or 5 or Kyocera etc equivalents. These have giant toner
cartridges that last 1000+ sheets and a reputation for never breaking down
(you will need a buggy to take the printer home though). A spare toner
cartridge will cost as much as an inkjet one costs now, but will last
significantly longer.

For color, I think that only original cartridges cut it.

Peter

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2003\05\09@060606 by Katinka Mills

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{Quote hidden}

I like this, as the USA is not the world, the rest of us just pull finger
signs at these stupid laws and continue our business. so what if HP stop
shipping to the rest of the world, we just support a new manufacturer who
will deal with us, that little known printer manufacturer in China becomes
#1 overnight and we all have Gold Star printers or whatever.

This DMCA crap, is only going to hurt the USA, as it stands (from my
interpretation and please correct me if I am wrong) Microchip, Atmel, Intel
etc etc all have to fit the Anti Digital copying stuff into every micro,
into every maskrom digital device ....... How long before all the Chip
manufacturers pull out of the USA ? America is not that bigger market to
loose when you get to keep Asia and Europe (also us down in Oceana)

Just my $0.02 (inc GST)

Regards,

Kat.
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2003\05\09@064655 by SM Ling

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> Yes, but in his example, he couldn't be bothered to spend half a
> morning sitting on the phone to HP. It was easier to jump in the car
> and go buy new ink tanks at Office Depot. Those tanks (or another case)
> were expired and the result was that he told 2000+ people on this list
> that he will never buy another HP printer (perhaps product) again.
>
> Very interesting. So will these big companies learn or just continue
> down the same path?

You get screw even when you pay for new laser toner catridge.

Be very wary about their rebate policy..after 4 calls and all kinds of
excuses given by HP Singapore, I have yet to receive my rebate (about 25% of
the purchase price).  It has been 9 months.  I am avoiding HP like SARS from
now on.

Ling SM

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2003\05\09@080050 by Matt Pobursky

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I agree 100% Kat! Here in the good old US of Amerika we have far
too many lawyers, politicians (they all seem to be lawyers with a
side degree in weasel-ness) and marketing types who think these
sorts of laws are a good thing. They also think the U.S. is too
mighty to be knocked off our collective perch.

Personally, I despise that attitude and frankly, I've become
disgusted with the business environment here. I was raised to
believe in personal freedom, respecting other's rights and treating
others like you'd want to be treated. In other words doing the right
thing. Sadly, it seems that our society has degraded into what's
technically legal and what you can "get away with". And of course,
the monied interests just throw money at the legislators and make
laws to their liking when the current ones aren't.

The attitude of "big America" (i.e. the big corporations and law makers)
has gotten incredibly arrogant here and I'm dissapointed in the attitude
it portrays to good citizens all over the world. I think it's so far
removed from the attitudes of the "average U.S. citizen" that I can
understand why many people around the world view them as arrogant also.
It's really not the case, we are mostly good people! ;-)

Matt Pobursky
Maximum Performance Systems

On Fri, 9 May 2003 17:56:38 +0800, Katinka Mills wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2003\05\09@083010 by Matt Pobursky

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On Fri, 9 May 2003 17:56:38 +0800, Katinka Mills wrote:
> This DMCA crap, is only going to hurt the USA, as it stands (from my
> interpretation and please correct me if I am wrong) Microchip, Atmel,
> Intel
> etc etc all have to fit the Anti Digital copying stuff into every
> micro,
> into every maskrom digital device ....... How long before all the Chip
> manufacturers pull out of the USA ? America is not that bigger market
> to
> loose when you get to keep Asia and Europe (also us down in Oceana)

The worst part of the DMCA law is that it pretty much removes all
"fair use" rights to legal purchasers of products containing any copyrighted digital technology -- i.e. once you buy something you can't
copy it for your own personal use, modify it as you see fit or reverse
engineer it. That's their goal as I see it. The DMCA undoes a couple
centuries of fair use and copyright law that we U.S. citizens have lived
with.

I also agree with your assessment that it will only hurt the USA in the
global marketplace (isn't it all a global market now?).

This is all a big battleground in the U.S. right now and I don't see
it being settled any time soon. :-(

Matt Pobursky
Maximum Performance Systems

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2003\05\09@092251 by Dave VanHorn

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>
>Very interesting. So will these big companies learn or just continue
>down the same path?
>
>Sean


Not until they get some feedback.
We need a "Printer Rapists" web site listing all the makes and models of
printers designed to hose the consumer.

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2003\05\09@093132 by Alan B. Pearce

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>Not until they get some feedback.
>We need a "Printer Rapists" web site listing all the makes
>and models of printers designed to hose the consumer.

Preferably outside the US with details of how it is done ??

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