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'[OT]: Compressed air questions...'
2001\05\30@191641 by John Pearson

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Questions from a laymen to a sceince guy regarding air density:

How can I create the most oxygen rich air? Compress and chill it?

If so, how much more oxygen can I pack into a bottle if I compress it at 70 degrees F to, say, 100psi at 40 degrees F?
Thanks

John

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2001\05\30@193643 by David VanHorn

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At 04:02 PM 5/30/01 -0700, John Pearson wrote:
>Questions from a laymen to a sceince guy regarding air density:
>
>How can I create the most oxygen rich air? Compress and chill it?
>
>If so, how much more oxygen can I pack into a bottle if I compress it at
>70 degrees F to, say, 100psi at 40 degrees F?

Compressing oxygen has serious explosion hazards.
Many things become explosively flammable in a compressed ox-rich
atmosphere, that you wouldn't think of being a hazard in normal ox-nitrogen
mix.

That being said, there's a form of rare earth, that absorbs nitrogen. They
use it in portable oxygen concentrators.

You could always make LOX with a hilsch tube.  Beware cryo hazards, as well
as extreme flammability.

There's a fellow who lights barbecues with LOX. Rather famous.
He says a lump of charcoal saturated with LOX is roughly equivalent to a
stick of dynamite.
http://ghg.ecn.purdue.edu/~ghg/
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2001\05\31@054235 by Roman Black

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John Pearson wrote:
>
> Questions from a laymen to a sceince guy regarding air density:
>
> How can I create the most oxygen rich air? Compress and chill it?
>
> If so, how much more oxygen can I pack into a bottle if I compress it at 70 degrees F to, say, 100psi at 40 degrees F?


Pure oxygen is cheap and common and used in
compressed form in all oxy-acetylene welding
sets. You can get a bottle from the local
industrial gas supplier, and while you are
there MAKE SURE to ask him about all the
safety issues as pure oxygen is highly
explosive...
-Roman

For some uses (car engines) they use nitrous
oxide, it is good for increasing engine power
if you can add N02 and fuel. It is much safer
than oxygen, but still can cause some big
nasty explosions. There is a web page on the net
of a person showing the remains of their car
and garage after their NO2 bottle went bang.
Very entertaining, the whole rear end of the
car and garage door are peeled back like a soft
drink can...

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2001\05\31@063214 by Thomas C. Sefranek

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John Pearson wrote:

> Questions from a laymen to a sceince guy regarding air density:
>
> How can I create the most oxygen rich air? Compress and chill it?

THe cheaper way is to FILTER air.
Millipore makes filters that take compressed air and block the passage of nitrogen.
So you have two tanks, one is pressured by a regular air compressor, the other is
enriched "air" with a good concentration of oxygen.  This is used as a commercial
source for glass blowing, and other cottage industries.

> If so, how much more oxygen can I pack into a bottle if I compress it at 70 degrees F to, say, 100psi at 40 degrees F?

Compressing oxygen is dangerous, and you WILL raise the temperature in the process,
you will have to add refrigeration!  The rest of the question is just like asking how much water can I
store in a jar.  Think about it!

>
>
> Thanks
>
> John
>
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2001\05\31@095540 by John Pearson
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I made a mistake with my question. I don't want to change the oxy/nitrogen
ratio of air, but I am wondering how compressable is air.

If I compressed air at 70 degrees F into a bottle and obtained 100psi with
the air temp at 40 degrees F, will I have doubled the oxy/nitro density of
the air. What kind of compression ratios am I capable of?

Thanks

{Original Message removed}

2001\05\31@102710 by James R. Cunningham

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You will have increased the density by a factor of roughly 7 (I didn't bother
to do the arithmetic).  For practical purposes, you can compress to whatever
extent your pump can provide and/or whatever pressure your tank can safely hold
(with enough pressure and low enough temperature, you can also liquify the
air).  Why do you want to increase the density?  Please be cautious -- high
pressure can be extremely dangerous, just as high oxygen content can be.

Jim

John Pearson wrote:

> If I compressed air at 70 degrees F into a bottle and obtained 100psi with
> the air temp at 40 degrees F, will I have doubled the oxy/nitro density of
> the air. What kind of compression ratios am I capable of?
>
> Thanks
>

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2001\05\31@111313 by goflo

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The general relation is PV = MRT, where

P   pressure in lbs/sq.ft.
V   volume in cubic ft.
M   mass in lbs, ~ .0807 lbs/cu.ft. for air, IIRC
R   gas constant, 53.34 for air
T   absolute temp in degrees Rankine (deg F + 460)

regards, Jack

John Pearson wrote:
>
> I made a mistake with my question. I don't want to change the oxy/nitrogen
> ratio of air, but I am wondering how compressable is air.
>
> If I compressed air at 70 degrees F into a bottle and obtained 100psi with
> the air temp at 40 degrees F, will I have doubled the oxy/nitro density of
> the air. What kind of compression ratios am I capable of?

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2001\05\31@121250 by Barry King

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Jack pointed out that:
> The general relation is PV = MRT, where
>
> P   pressure in lbs/sq.ft.
> V   volume in cubic ft.
> M   mass in lbs, ~ .0807 lbs/cu.ft. for air, IIRC
> R   gas constant, 53.34 for air
> T   absolute temp in degrees Rankine (deg F + 460)

P is absolute pressure, i.e. atmosphere is about 32 psi absolute.

So for your example: from atmosphere to 100 psi gauge (psig) = 32 to
132 psia or a factor of 4.125 times the mass of air in the tank at
constant temp.

If you cool the air from 70F to 40F as well, that's only 530R to 500R
(Rankine, absolute temp) or an additional 1.06 times the mass of air.

Overall, a 4.37 times increase in density (mass of air in a given
volume).

Regards,

Barry.
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2001\05\31@123459 by James R. Cunningham

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Barry King wrote:

> P is absolute pressure, i.e. atmosphere is about 32 psi absolute.

Atmosphere is about 14.7 psi absolute or 2116 lbs/sq.ft., not 32 psi
absolute.

> So for your example: from atmosphere to 100 psi gauge (psig) = 32 to
> 132 psia or a factor of 4.125 times the mass of air in the tank at
> constant temp.

14.7 to 114.7 = a factor of 7.80 times the mass of the air in the tank at
const. temp

> If you cool the air from 70F to 40F as well, that's only 530R to 500R
> (Rankine, absolute temp) or an additional 1.06 times the mass of air.
>
> Overall, a 4.37 times increase in density (mass of air in a given
> volume).

Overall, 1.06*7.8 = about 8.27 times increase in density.

Jim

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2001\05\31@134938 by Barry King

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I wrote:
> P is absolute pressure, i.e. atmosphere is about 32 psi absolute.

Duh.  Jim is right, of course, 14.7 psia = 0 psig.

I remembered the wrong constant.  32 "feet of water" is about 1
atmosphere.  Jim's answer is right, I think.

regards,

Barry.
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2001\05\31@135918 by James R. Cunningham

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I'd like to have a nickle for every time I done that ('remembered' the
wrong constant).  I'd be retired to the south seas right now.  In round
numbers, 1 atmosphere is about 33.92 feet of water, more or less.

Barry King wrote:

> I wrote:
> I remembered the wrong constant.  32 "feet of water" is about 1
> atmosphere.  Jim's answer is right, I think.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that -- that I'm right.

Jim

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2001\05\31@180612 by John Pearson

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Isn't it 32 'inches' of water, or is it inches of mercury?

-----Original Message-----
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To: RemoveMEPICLISTEraseMEspamEraseMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU <RemoveMEPICLISTspam_OUTspamKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Date: Thursday, May 31, 2001 10:59 AM
Subject: Re: [OT]: Compressed air questions...


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2001\05\31@181016 by Nick Taylor

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John Pearson wrote:
>
> Isn't it 32 'inches' of water, or is it inches of mercury?

29.92 inches of mercury

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2001\05\31@192723 by James R. Cunningham

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29.92 inches of mercury (from memory, I didn't look it up, so don't hold me
to it)..

For water 14.7/(62.4/144) = 33.92 feet, more or less

Jim


John Pearson wrote:

> Isn't it 32 'inches' of water, or is it inches of mercury?
>

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2001\05\31@200822 by John Pearson

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It could be Bars of Mercury.....?


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To: KILLspamPICLISTspamBeGonespamMITVMA.MIT.EDU <EraseMEPICLISTspamEraseMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Date: Thursday, May 31, 2001 4:27 PM
Subject: Re: [OT]: Compressed air questions...


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2001\05\31@212454 by James R. Cunningham

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?

Jim

John Pearson wrote:

> It could be Bars of Mercury.....?

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2001\05\31@221005 by Barry Gershenfeld

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At 05:06 PM 5/31/01 -0700, you wrote:
>It could be Bars of Mercury.....?

It could be Bars of Latinum!

But, no, not this time. :)

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2001\05\31@221834 by Jinx

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> At 05:06 PM 5/31/01 -0700, you wrote:
> >It could be Bars of Mercury.....?

Or what Cadbury's use to measure the pressure of liquid
chocolate - Bars of Mars

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2001\05\31@231159 by Randy Glenn

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At the risk of taking this even further off-topic...

Latinum is a powder. The Ferengi place it in bars of "worthless" gold as a
container. Saw it on a DS9 episode some time ago.

-Randy Glenn

New record for time between Windows reinstalls: 4 months.
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PICxpert.com going away - use picxpert.dyndns.org
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=================================================

{Original Message removed}


'[OT]: Compressed air questions...'
2001\06\01@065316 by Jinx
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> At 04:02 PM 5/30/01 -0700, John Pearson wrote:
> >Questions from a laymen to a sceince guy regarding air density:
> >
> >How can I create the most oxygen rich air? Compress and chill it?
> >
> >If so, how much more oxygen can I pack into a bottle if I compress
> >it at 70 degrees F to, say, 100psi at 40 degrees F?

Have you thought about asking someone at a dive centre, the people
who refill air tanks ? If you can sort out a method to reduce the nitrogen,
they may be able to help you with safe compression practice

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2001\06\01@213850 by steve

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> > >How can I create the most oxygen rich air? Compress and chill it?

> > >If so, how much more oxygen can I pack into a bottle if I compress
> > >it at 70 degrees F to, say, 100psi at 40 degrees F?
>
> Have you thought about asking someone at a dive centre, the people who
> refill air tanks ? If you can sort out a method to reduce the
> nitrogen, they may be able to help you with safe compression practice

What a coincidence. Just got my Nitrox ticket a couple of weeks
back.
There are two ways that dive shops do Nitrox (>21% Oxygen) fills.
One is to filter out the nitrogen on the way to the tank and the other
is to blend pure O2 in the tank. The blending method requires that
your dive tank is "Oxygen clean" and is dedicated to that use.
Anything coming into contact with more than 40% O2 is required to
be suitable for use with 100% O2.
Blending is the most common as it is the cheapest for the dive
shop to setup. Filtration fills can go into a standard tank and the
tank can be refilled with air for subsequent dives (which is the
better option for the diver).

In relation to the original question - Compressing, freezing, etc
won't change the concentration (proportion) of Oxygen in the air.
If you compress it there will still be 21% O2, 78% Nitrogen, etc in
the mix. When you release it to use it, it will be the same air as
you put in. However, if you drop the temperature low enough,
eventually you will reach the boiling point of the gas, below which it
is a liquid. I don't know which gases boil when, but this is how the
large industrial places get their gases. Just pour off the gas you
want.

Steve.


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2001\06\05@102703 by James Newton

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My USN training included a film called "the man from LOX " that will forever keep me as far as possible from liguid oxygen. No one who has seen that film to the end would ever forget it.

James Newton (PICList Admin #3) TakeThisOuTjamesnewtonspamspampiclist.com 1-619-652-0593

David VanHorn wrote on 01-5-30 16:42:

At 04:02 PM 5/30/01 -0700, John Pearson wrote: >Questions from a laymen to a sceince guy regarding air density:
>
>How can I create the most oxygen rich air? Compress and chill it?
>
>If so, how much more oxygen can I pack into a bottle if I compress it at
>70 degrees F to, say, 100psi at 40 degrees F?

Compressing oxygen has serious explosion hazards. Many things become explosively flammable in a compressed ox-rich atmosphere, that you wouldn't think of being a hazard in normal ox-nitrogen mix.

That being said, there's a form of rare earth, that absorbs nitrogen. They use it in portable oxygen concentrators.

You could always make LOX with a hilsch tube.  Beware cryo hazards, as well as extreme flammability.

There's a fellow who lights barbecues with LOX. Rather famous. He says a lump of charcoal saturated with LOX is roughly equivalent to a stick of dynamite.
http://ghg.ecn.purdue.edu/~ghg/
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2001\06\05@142317 by Robert A. LaBudde

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At 07:21 AM 6/5/01 -0700, you wrote:
>My USN training included a film called "the man from LOX " that will
>forever keep me as far as possible from liguid oxygen. No one who has seen
>that film to the end would ever forget it.
>
>James Newton (PICList Admin #3)
>@spam@jamesnewtonRemoveMEspamEraseMEpiclist.com
>1-619-652-0593
>
>David VanHorn wrote on 01-5-30 16:42:
>
>At 04:02 PM 5/30/01 -0700, John Pearson wrote: >Questions from a laymen to
>a sceince guy regarding air density:
> >
> >How can I create the most oxygen rich air? Compress and chill it?
> >

The simplest way to make oxygen is to combine manganese dioxide and topical
hydrogen peroxide in a bottle with a stopper and outlet tube. It foams and
the oxygen is released quickly. To maintain oxygen flow, drip hydrogen
peroxide into the container continuously. The manganese dioxide powder is a
catalyst and doesn't need renewal.

Manganese dioxide is the black powder used in regular dry cells. You could
probably remove it and use it without further purification.

================================================================
Robert A. LaBudde, PhD, PAS, Dpl. ACAFS  e-mail: EraseMEralspam@spam@lcfltd.com
Least Cost Formulations, Ltd.            URL: http://lcfltd.com/
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2001\06\06@030630 by Russell McMahon

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>How can I create the most oxygen rich air? Compress and chill it?
>If so, how much more oxygen can I pack into a bottle if I compress it at
>70 degrees F to, say, 100psi at 40 degrees F?

Compressing oxygen has serious explosion hazards. Many things become
explosively flammable in a compressed ox-rich atmosphere, that you wouldn't
think of being a hazard in normal ox-nitrogen mix.

That being said, there's a form of rare earth, that absorbs nitrogen. They
use it in portable oxygen concentrators.


// These are zeolites (usually synthetic) used as molecular sieves. Gas is
passed through a dense bed of zeolite and Nitrogen is absorbed. A purge
cycle follows with pressure dropping and the absorbed Nitrogen is expelled.
Cyclic by nature with cycle tiome in the order of 5 to 10 seconds
typically.90 to 95 % purity typically. Said not to be good enough for oxygen
cutting. Serach for "molecular sieve" and "Zeolite" and you'll get dozens of
hits.//

You could always make LOX with a hilsch tube.  Beware cryo hazards, as well
as extreme flammability.

// No, sadly. The Hilsch Vortex (aka Maxwell's Demon  aka ...) does not
provide enough colling in a single stage to get down to LOX temperatures and
the nature of it is that it cannot regeneratively cool multistage versions
of itself. //


There's a fellow who lights barbecues with LOX. Rather famous. He says a
lump of charcoal saturated with LOX is roughly equivalent to a stick of
dynamite.
http://ghg.ecn.purdue.edu/~ghg/

// Mass for mass most hydrocarbons (or stuff with H & C in) are roughly
equal to each other energy wise. It's the rate which you can get the energy
out that counts. Charcoal and LOX would not be as fast as dynamite but you
may not notice the difference if you stood close enough :-)..
LOX mixed with many things tends not to self ignite most of the time.
(STARTING LOX oxidised rocket motors (smoothly) is a black art). However
once a small amount starts the rest will usually follow enthusaistically. In
fact gaseous pure Oxygen is more likely to self ignite. As LOX
enthusiastically produces gaseous Oxygen the end result can be the same as
if it was spontaneously combusting. . //


regards


           //Russell McMahon//

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2001\06\06@183950 by Alexandre Domingos F. Souza

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>My USN training included a film called "the man from LOX " that will forever keep me as far as possible from liguid oxygen. No one who has seen that film to the end would ever forget it.

       I haven't find it in my local video rent, unfortunatelly :oD


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