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'[OT]: Car Radiator for Air Conditioning'
2002\06\19@024317 by Martin Buehler

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i would like to use a radiator from a small car for air conditioning my
house:

i have a source of cold water (about 10C, i think that's about 52F). so i
would like to circulate this water through the car radiator.
there's a heater, which is originally placed in the air distribution
system, i have in my house for heating in wintertime. i want to replace it
with the car radiator to cool down the air in summer.
i have no idea if this works, as i have no data of such a car radiator.
has anyone done something similar, or does anyone know about the active
surface of such a car radiator and the thickness of the lamella (between
air and water)?
or does anyone have any data of such a radiator, that help me calculate
how much power i can 'destroy', depending on the airstream and temperature
difference?
thank's a lot!!
tino

ps:
wonder why i ask this in a pic forum? for shure, i pic will control the
whole thing!

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2002\06\19@033753 by Alan B. Pearce

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>does anyone know about the active surface of such a
>car radiator and the thickness of the lamella (between
>air and water)? or does anyone have any data of such a
>radiator, that help me calculate how much power i can
>'destroy', depending on the airstream and temperature
>difference?

All such radiators I have come across use a copper core which is painted on
the outer surface. I do not know the copper wall thickness, but it is
probably somewhere around 1 to 1.5mm, remember it needs to take a reasonable
amount of pressure, what is a radiator cap, something like 15 PSI before it
releases pressure?

I suspect the highest thermal resistance will be the paint layer.

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2002\06\19@034849 by Pic Dude

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Paint should be easily chemically strippable.
Also, (unpainted) aluminium radiators are very rampant
on automobiles nowadays.




{Original Message removed}

2002\06\19@041417 by Tal Bejerano - AMC

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Hi Martin

I think the all system will not work, even if you have water source below
10c.

try to rich the humidity if you are living in a very dry area.

Regards

Tal Bejerano
AMC - ISRAEL


{Original Message removed}

2002\06\19@045611 by Also-Antal Csaba

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Tal Bejerano - AMC wrote:
>
> Hi Martin
>
> I think the all system will not work, even if you have water source below
> 10c.

In Hungary the water temperature whitch come from the earth always
12..15C. Some nursery use this for heat/cool his greenhouse. They simply
spraying the water beetven the two layer of roof. In sumer can be cool
down the inner temperature about 5..10C below the outside
temperature(25..40C). In winter can be heat up the greenhouse about
+2..10C when the outside temperature 0..-25C. Only one problem is the
iron oxid in the water, because this paint the roof to red. So, if you
use high speed water flow and low speed air stream you get good result.
I think good way, mesure the outgoing water and air temperature and
control about this the ventillator speed.

udv
Csaba

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2002\06\19@063528 by Jinx

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This in no way helps you with your problem ;-) but I just
happened to read this article yesterday

http://www.autospeed.com/A_1168/page1.html?src=suggestions

I note with interest that Page 1 is reprinted ver batim without
attribution in the April 2002 Silicon Chip

http://www.siliconchip.com.au

and that pages 2,3, 4 of the web site are "members only". Hmmm

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2002\06\19@090151 by Eoin Ross

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Actually - apart from being careful not to exceed the maximum pressure
of the radiator you won't need to worry about that part of the system.

The reason a car's cooling system in pressurized is to increase the boiling
point of the water (antifreeze/antiboil can also be added to increase it further)
The radiator cap also serves as pressure relief as the coolant expands/contracts.

>>> EraseMEA.B.Pearcespam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTRL.AC.UK 06/19/02 03:37AM >>>
>does anyone know about the active surface of such a
>car radiator and the thickness of the lamella (between
>air and water)? or does anyone have any data of such a
>radiator, that help me calculate how much power I can
>'destroy', depending on the airstream and temperature
>difference?

<snip>  remember it needs to take a reasonable
amount of pressure, what is a radiator cap, something like 15 PSI before it
releases pressure? </snip>
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2002\06\19@111010 by Lawrence Lile

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52 F water is plenty cool for use in a cooling coil.  Most commercial HVAC
system chillers produce water at 52 to 55F.  You can expect to bet air off
this coil at maybe 57F, if it is about as efficient as a commercial cooling
coil.  This is well below dew point temperature on most summer days, so the
coil should stay dripping wet as it dehumidiffies your house.

Here's a rough way to calculate your heat capacity.  Your engine develops XX
horsepower.  It is not much better than 35% efficient, and the rest of theat
energy is basically heat.  Some of the heat is radiated by the engine
directly, let's say another third to be conservative.  So you can expect
your radiator can dissipate an amount of heat equivalent to at least the
horsepower of your engine, and probably closer to twice as much.  Have any
idea of your engine horsepower?

--lawrence


----- Original Message -----
From: "Tal Bejerano - AMC" <@spam@kooterKILLspamspamZAHAV.NET.IL>
To: <KILLspamPICLISTKILLspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 2002 4:11 AM
Subject: Re: [OT]: Car Radiator for Air Conditioning


{Quote hidden}

> {Original Message removed}

2002\06\19@114618 by Alan B. Pearce

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>So you can expect your radiator can dissipate an amount
>of heat equivalent to at least the horsepower of your
>engine, and probably closer to twice as much.  Have any
>idea of your engine horsepower?

The original requestor seemed to be talking in terms of not using a fan I
think, so I am not sure how this will affect the heat transfer. I might have
got the wrong end of the message however.

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2002\06\19@184254 by Harold M Hallikainen

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       Not quite the same thing, but the dorms at Cal Poly, San Luis Obispo
have an interesting heating/cooling system. All dorm rooms have a heat
exchanger with a fan. When the outside air temperature is below some
setpoint, they pump hot water through the heat exchangers. If the dorm
room is below the set point on the thermostat in the room, the fan turns
on. If the outside air temperature is above some set point, they pump
cold water through the heat exchangers. If the dorm room temperature is
above the setting on the room thermostat, they turn on the fan.
       Real simple system!

Harold


On Wed, 19 Jun 2002 08:42:27 +0200 Martin Buehler
<spamBeGoneMartin.BuehlerspamBeGonespamASCOM.CH> writes:
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2002\06\20@012522 by Also-Antal Csaba

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> directly, let's say another third to be conservative.  So you can expect
> your radiator can dissipate an amount of heat equivalent to at least the
> horsepower of your engine, and probably closer to twice as much.  Have any
> idea of your engine horsepower?

No, because the bigger part of heat going out over exhaust.

udv
Csaba

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2002\06\20@124028 by Peter L. Peres

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As a rule of thumb the radiator on a water cooled engine must get rid of 3
to 4 times more heat than the engine rating in kW, with the water in it at
90 degrees C or so and at an unspecified airflow. You can calculate the
minimum required liquid flow by assuming that you cannot have the water
boil in the circuit. The actual flow will be much higher. The outlet
temperature is usually 60 to 70C. The ambient air can be taken to be 30C.
All the temperature data depends on the actual engine. You can get the
figures from the service book of the car.

Peter

PS: Remember the rule of thumb is very rough.

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2002\06\20@141401 by Peter L. Peres

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On Thu, 20 Jun 2002, Also-Antal Csaba wrote:

>> directly, let's say another third to be conservative.  So you can expect
>> your radiator can dissipate an amount of heat equivalent to at least the
>> horsepower of your engine, and probably closer to twice as much.  Have any
>> idea of your engine horsepower?
>
>No, because the bigger part of heat going out over exhaust.

Can you back this with numbers ?

Peter

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2002\06\21@050524 by John

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Hello Martin & PIC.ers,

Can't you short-circuit all the thermodynamic calcs.?...and get a ballpark
estimate from:

1.     You have prior knowledge of the car model the radiator came from.
2.      You know what it's engine power rating was, assuming full load
       running condition.
3.    Petrol (Gas., for the N. American vocab.-challenged types here..), or
       diesel engines have predictable efficiencies, thus radiator
       work-rates  (=power dissipation).

etc...etc...,  even if you don't know all these you might be able to find
the data you want by measuring the performance of an actual system
in equilibrium.
Car goes at certain speed into wind, measure (on sequential runs,
not necessarily simultaneously):
1.  water temperature at inlet and outlet of radiator.
2.  air temp before and after radiator.
3.  Coolant flow rate..mmm... disconnect water pipe & stopwatch it filling
       a container, at the same revs as the road test  ??


                   best regards,   John


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