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'[OT]: Canoe Speedometer'
2001\09\05@102352 by Mark Skeels

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Greetings, PICsters.

How would you go about creating a device to measure and provide a real-time
readout the speed of a canoe on a lake or a river? (using a PIC, of course?)
(...or not...)  :-) Only thing I can think of is GPS, but perhaps sonar, or
something?


Mark Skeels
Engineer
Competition Electronics
spam_OUTmeskeelsTakeThisOuTspamearthlink.net

Soli Deo Gloria!

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2001\09\05@103756 by Kathy Quinlan

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A paddle wheel with two or four magnets attached, to a largish shaft and a
hall effect device to pick up the magnetic pulses this will convert them to
electrical pulses to be converted to speed by the pic :o)

You need an even number of magnets to keep the paddle wheel evenly balanced.

I know that any currents will upset the reading, but this is how commercial
boats do it :o)

Regards,

Kat.

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{Original Message removed}

2001\09\05@104638 by Jim

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X-band CW-based (alarm-movement style) doppler RADAR
modules?

OK - so you *may* have a problem on a lake ...

RF Jim


{Original Message removed}

2001\09\05@105526 by Martin Hill

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I'd go with an NMEA GPS module, read the data in through a serial port and
display it however you want.

Martin


{Original Message removed}

2001\09\05@110749 by Mark Skeels

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Martin Hill" <.....eaxmjhiKILLspamspam@spam@NOTTINGHAM.AC.UK>
To: <PICLISTspamKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 9:51 AM
Subject: Re: [OT]: Canoe Speedometer


> I'd go with an NMEA GPS module, read the data in through a serial port and
> display it however you want.
>
> Martin
>

Hello, Martin.

What does NMEA stand for and where should I look to find such a beast?

Mark

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2001\09\05@111158 by Jim

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   "I'd go with an NMEA GPS module"

I've had some excellent results with some modules
by JRC - but they output a more compact data form
(binary) as an alternative to NMEA - which is very
'wordy' (everything is ASCII).

This only really becomes more of a concern when the
amount of data output becomes greater - and the JRC
module outputs nearly everything of interest - or
that one could want to know - about the sats it's using,
the sats in view, the signal strength of those sats
etc.

RF Jim


----- Original Message -----
From: "Martin Hill" <.....eaxmjhiKILLspamspam.....NOTTINGHAM.AC.UK>
To: <EraseMEPICLISTspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 9:51 AM
Subject: Re: [OT]: Canoe Speedometer


> I'd go with an NMEA GPS module, read the data in through a serial port and
> display it however you want.
>
> Martin
>
>
> {Original Message removed}

2001\09\05@111356 by Mark Skeels

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Hi, Kat,

Not sure how that would affect paddling; I s'pose it'd depend on how you
make the paddle wheel assy. Maybe the best way would be to hang it off of
the back of the canoe. Biggest problem I see is speed would be relative to
the water, and in a river, there's current. So, the speed readout would not
be actual ground speed.

How do they do it in an airplane?

Mark



{Original Message removed}

2001\09\05@112652 by Jim

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   "A paddle wheel with two or four magnets
    attached, to a largish shaft and a"

This would yield good results on the speed of the
canoe relative to the water - is this what's wanted
or needed?

Or is is absolute (relative to the earth anyway) speed
needed?

RF Jim


{Original Message removed}

2001\09\05@112706 by Don Hyde

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In an airplane, you care about both speed through the air and speed over the
ground.

Speed through the air determines whether your wings will generate enough
lift to keep you from falling, so it's the more immediate concern.  For this
you use a pitot tube, which is simply a little tube pointing forward.  Ram
effect of the air going into the tube raises the pressure inside.  The
airspeed indicator on the instrument panel is a specially-calibrated (and
pretty sensitive) pressure gauge.

Speed over the ground is important for figuring out where you are and how
long it will take to get where you are going.  Classically, it is much more
difficult to figure out, since you have to guess at the wind speed and
direction and then do some vector math.  GPS really simplifies this,
especially since all the vector math is hidden inside and done
automatically.

Power boats also use pitot tubes, but the pressure differential at the
speeds of human- or wind-powered boats is so small that it's not practical,
at least with mechanical meters.

Sailboats often use paddlewheel devices, which project through the hull.
One of these might be practical on a canoe, since they only stick out a
fraction of an inch in some cases.  They are pretty rugged, and might even
survive normal canoe use, at least for a while.  They are pretty expensive,
though.  You could buy a halfway decent canoe for the price of some of them.

> {Original Message removed}

2001\09\05@112818 by Bond, Peter

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> How do they do it in an airplane?

Static pitot tubes is one way (measurement of differential between static &
dynamic pressures).
Could conceivably work on a canoe, but I'd be concerned about it geting
broken.

Peter
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2001\09\05@113031 by Alan B. Pearce

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>> I'd go with an NMEA GPS module, read the data in through a serial port
and
>> display it however you want.
>>
>> Martin
>>

>Hello, Martin.

>What does NMEA stand for and where should I look to find such a beast?

>Mark

NMEA stands for "National Marine Electronics Association" and is a US
organisation which has produced an interface standard for marine instruments
to allow them to connect together, so you can connect your GPS to your
autopilot, for example. Almost every GPS receiver will output position data
in NMEA format on a serial port.

As someone else mentioned it is a verbose printable ASCII string, but most
receivers I have come across have a facility to turn off the output of
unrequired data such as satellites info, so you only get the position info
you need for your application.

If you want to get a copy of the NMEA standard it will cost a significant
amount of money. However the operations manual for GPS receivers, especially
ones designed for interconnection, as distinct from hand held ones, have a
section which gives the relevant information for the receiver. As examples
of this check out the Garmin website (http://www.garmin.com/), the model
currently my favourite for OEM use is the 25 series.

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2001\09\05@113305 by Kathy Quinlan

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Not sure on the old way (had something to do with venturi effects IIRC) but
the new way is GPS :o)


Regards,

Kat.

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{Original Message removed}

2001\09\05@122831 by Lawrence Lile

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Anything sticking out of the bottom of my canoe would be smashed after the
first "botany lesson" .

--Lawrence Lile
Headed toward Saddler Falls this weekend

*Botany Lesson - an up close and personal inspection of local flora, often
accompanied by accusations of incompetence directed at either canoe occupant
by the other.



{Original Message removed}

2001\09\05@171717 by Alexandre Domingos F. Souza

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>How would you go about creating a device to measure and provide a real-time
>readout the speed of a canoe on a lake or a river? (using a PIC, of course?)
>(...or not...)  :-) Only thing I can think of is GPS, but perhaps sonar, or
>something?

       In boats, it's used a small turbine, with a magnet in one of the pads and a hall sensor inside the hull. The fan rotates and generate pulses in the hall sensor. It's just a matter of calculing the speed.


---8<---Corte aqui---8<----

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2001\09\05@195552 by Brian Kraut

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Depends on if you want water speed or ground speed.  If you want ground
speed use a GPS.  If you want water speed use a paddlewheel.  You can
buy the paddle wheel speed indicators at any marine electronics stores.
They have pulse outputs.  Some of the newer Airmar smart sensors have
direct NMEA outputs.  Airmar is also working on a smart sensor using a
correlation technique with no moving parts.  I have been bugging them
for the OEM version for over a year and they are still having problems
with it.

Mark Skeels wrote:

{Quote hidden}

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2001\09\05@223841 by Herbert Graf

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Pressure sensor comes to mind, like what they do in air planes. TTYL

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2001\09\05@224915 by Spehro Pefhany

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At 10:39 PM 9/5/01 -0400, you wrote:
>Pressure sensor comes to mind, like what they do in air planes. TTYL

Called a Pitot tube, and the first tests were made in a river in 1732
by a gentleman named Henri de Pitot.

There are some subtleties in the design of both the static pressure
probe and the total pressure (static + dynamic) probe, depending on the
angle of attack and so on.

Best regards,
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TakeThisOuTspeffEraseMEspamspam_OUTinterlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
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2001\09\05@231121 by Spehro Pefhany

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At 10:39 PM 9/5/01 -0400, you wrote:
>Pressure sensor comes to mind, like what they do in air planes. TTYL

Called a Pitot tube, and the first tests were made in a river in 1732
by a gentleman named Henri de Pitot.

There are some subtleties in the design of both the static pressure
probe and the total pressure (static + dynamic) probe, depending on the
angle of attack and so on.

Of course this give you the speed through the water, so if the water
is moving, your "ground speed" will be different.

Best regards,
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..."            "The Journey is the reward"
RemoveMEspeffspamTakeThisOuTinterlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com
Contributions invited->The AVR-gcc FAQ is at: http://www.bluecollarlinux.com
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

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