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'[OT]: Attack'
2001\09\11@114339 by Sean H. Breheny

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Hello fellow listmembers,

I know religious messages are normally taboo, but please pray (or at least
think of) the people, and the families of the people, who have died in
today's attack on the World Trade Center, Pentagon,  and possibly related
747 crash near Pittsburgh. Please also pray that there will not be any
additional attacks.

Sean

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2001\09\11@165601 by Gabriel Caffese

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Yes, you are right.
But I have been praying before, for the children that everyday die in
Africa, South America, and all over the world, and for whom the United
States have done nothing but letting them die.
Of course, when the USA senda guns for inciting an internal war in a 3rd
world country, you won´t see it in TV. To many people dies in these internal
wars.
Remember that USA supported all the military revolts in South América (in
Chile, Argentina, Brazil, Uruguay, etc, etc, etc,....)  in the 70´s.

Well, I pray for ALL the people that dies everyday.

Ehh...another thing...:

Why do you think that terrorism attacks the USA, and doesn´t attack to
Burkina Faso, or Paraguay, or Costa Rica (where 15 days before 40 children
died of hunger, and no country did anything for them, and they are 4000km
away from USA), or Uruguay, or.......

{Original Message removed}

2001\09\11@204916 by Mike Kendall

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 Having lived overseas for 6 years in Japan and Philippines.  Having been
to the middle east, in the desert, and the far east.  Having seen foreign
military in the desert having anal sex with each other after raping their
fellow military members.  The muslims that kill the christians because of
their religious believes.   The dictators.  The corrupt.  The ignorant.  The
un-educated.  The evil and crazy that are unchecked.The people programed by
the propoganda from their government and controlled newsmedia.  I can say
that I'm truly proud to be a free American. Name one "free" country that is
not treated with respect by the USA. The USA treats other countries with
diplomacy, justice, and when necessary they instill fear.  The other
countries should rightly fear the might and power of the United States.
I'll remember not to talk to you on this list, that's for sure.
ETC(SW/AW) Mike Kendall USN

{Original Message removed}

2001\09\11@221657 by M. Adam Davis

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Gabriel Caffese wrote:

>But I have been praying before, for the children that everyday die in
>Africa, South America, and all over the world, and for whom the United
>States have done nothing but letting them die.
>
I, too, pray for those in war torn areas of the world, for those who live in strife, fear, poverty, etc.

I hope, however, that you are not suggesting that the US could even begin to help everyone else in the world.  We give help to those who accept it, under our terms.  When people/groups/countries commit crimes against humanity the US is often there with the UN and other world forces to keep conflict from escalating and to prevent such inhuman crimes.

If you seriously want the US to take care of the world's problems, the world will have to live under US rules and policies - which no one, including me or the US, wants to have happen.

>
>Of course, when the USA senda guns for inciting an internal war in a 3rd
>world country, you won´t see it in TV. To many people dies in these internal
>wars.
>Remember that USA supported all the military revolts in South América (in
>Chile, Argentina, Brazil, Uruguay, etc, etc, etc,....)  in the 70´s.
>
Yes, it did so for what it considered was national security.  Perhaps they were misguided.  Don't forget that we also forced native americans off their lands, and half of our early country participated and fought for slavery.  Shoot, I could go on and on.  The best thing we can do is learn from our mistakes and the mistakes of others and move on.  When this nation was concieved some rather ordinary men looked good and hard at what problems they knew of during the histories of countries they were familiar with.  They tried to fix them, create an equal state as close to democracy as they could, and left room for change along the way.

Those same men made decisions that we today would consider terrible.  And we learned from them.

>
>Well, I pray for ALL the people that dies everyday.
>
I do too, but I especially pray that those who continue living will learn from the terrible tragedies and decisions made by our forbearers.

-Adam,

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2001\09\11@221941 by Sean H. Breheny

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Hi Gabriel,

I can certainly understand that people are justifiably angry with the U.S., which both through mistakes and malicious actions, has done evil and caused problems around the world, in addition to helping in many situations around the world.

The true tragedy is that, though the actions of a few fanatics or lunatics, a large number of innocent people in the U.S. have to pay for the evil acts of a few people in power. I would join you in praying for all people who died or suffered in the world today, but I think you will understand that this especially came to mind since it hits home; I am still not sure that all my relatives are safe, since I have many in the New York area.

Likewise, I hope that all those affected will wait for all the facts to come in and will not jump to judge who may have been behind this. For example, if it turns out to be Islamic terrorists, I hope that people will not assign blame to all Muslims.

It is unconscionable that some people (i.e. in Palestine) would celebrate over this. However, these people have suffered for a long time, partly due to things the U.S. government has done. I can understand how they are strongly tempted to be joyful that the U.S. has to suffer, too, but it is immensely wrong to strike these innocent people, and I think that the majority of reasonable Palestinian people condemn such violence, as their leaders have.

Sean

At 05:27 PM 9/11/01 -0300, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2001\09\11@233703 by Jeff DeMaagd

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----- Original Message -----
From: Sean H. Breheny <spam_OUTshb7TakeThisOuTspamCORNELL.EDU>

>For example, if it turns out to be Islamic terrorists, I hope that
people will
> not assign blame to all Muslims.

I hope not as well.  It is unfortunate that extreme militants have
control over muslim countries.

> It is unconscionable that some people (i.e. in Palestine) would
celebrate
> over this. However, these people have suffered for a long time, partly
due
> to things the U.S. government has done.

I think simply giving aid and comfort to their enemy (Israel) is
probably enough to the militants as it is.  The Israeli treatment of
Palestenians in some cases is quite inhumane, from a friend that has
visited that region, in one case river water to a densely Palestenian
populated area was diverted and as such the remaining water is quite a
cesspool.

Said person has given a few instances when Western reporting was
inaccurate or blown out of proportion, but then there's the state
controlled "news" in the mid-east to deal with too.  Another friend has
seen many broadcasts from Iraq showing how the USA damaged an elementary
school, leaving out the fact that it was right next to an entire missle
system placed there by themselves.  As I understand it, they often put
military & civilian installations adjacent to each other and they have a
field day showing their people that the USA is a bunch of evil murderers
when an ordinance misses the military installation and kills civilians.
So it's obvious that there is little decent unbiased news involved.

Quite frankly the hatred on both sides can be exceedingly strong that
there is sometimes very little to reason with.

I don't know what else the USA has done.  I am curious how the militant
Muslim factions view the Muslim believers in the USA.

Jeff

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2001\09\11@235823 by James Newton. Admin 3

face picon face
I must say that I am impressed by the restraint shown on this list even by
people who have been there and done that and who harbor the scars of it. On
more than one side... We bitch more about RS232 to TTL conversion than we do
about loss of human minds.

I'm happy to see that all the people who have commented have shared an
abhorrence of violence and killing and war even when they are willing to
accept that it is sometimes the least of all possible evils. If it were the
only ability I had, would not hesitate to kill the terrorist to save the
passengers and target and I would kill the passengers to save the rest,
etc... But I would give my life to know a way to stop it without killing
anyone. Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent.

I haven't been happy with the way we handled Iraq. I felt incompetent when I
was floating around in the Gulf, and I feel that our handling of the issue,
although I don't know how, just couldn't have been the best we could do. A
tortured alley cat, with a fever in its brain, backed into a corner and
beaten to teach it not to steal. There is no good way to solve that problem.
I served proudly and I'm damn proud of the work my fellow service men did,
but I still can not express the pain I felt at seeing secondary explosions
from our surgical strikes on ammo dumps blowing apart school yards and
houses. Honor does not a solution make.

I would caution that communication and openness and explanation are also a
difficult but necessary part of any better future. I'm not going to stop
anyone who wants to talk about this on the list as long as it is marked
[OT]: and spoken with the goal of understanding at its heart. We are a group
that solves problems, talks about "a better way" all the time, and we have a
good set of brains on our collective head. I doubt that we can solve this
problem in any period of time, but we sure should try to understand, listen,
commiserate, put our thoughts forward with humility and hope that some small
good can come of it.


James Newton, PICList Admin #3
.....jamesnewtonKILLspamspam@spam@piclist.com
1-619-652-0593 phone
http://www.piclist.com

{Original Message removed}

2001\09\12@011337 by rad0

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fwiw

the issue here is terrorism, and how to deal with it.

this is an issue that effects all of civilization and the world...and today
it was
america's terrible misfortune to be the target...

don't let the issue get clouded by people who try to say that america is
somehow at fault here, or that america brought this on itself...

the issue is terrorism, the accepting, condoning, and sponsoring of
terrorism...those who
engage in these activities are the guilty parties in this event, and
justice, getting
what one deserves, demands that those parties be held accountable for
today's action...

remember this because it is important, it's the central issue.

today's attack on america is really an attack on civilization itself,
specifically western
civilization, the dominant and life affirming civilization...this is a fight
between
western rational values and various eastern, religious, and essentially,
irrational doctrines
that oppose western values...

in essense, western values, value life on earth, wealth, production, and all
the things
that our technology, especially the pics, make possible..
and the embracers of terror hold the opposite dear...

to you young physics students, who haven't had every last trace of reason
drummed out
of you by your professors, let this action today crystalize the moment for
you, and
embrace reason and don't ever let go of it for anything or anyone,
--the struggle will be worth it, to you, and your families to be...

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2001\09\12@013418 by Stephen Webb

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> don't let the issue get clouded by people who try to say that america is
> somehow at fault here, or that america brought this on itself...

I am trying to understand WHY someone would do this.  What circumstances
bring about the decision that terrorism is the best course of action?
Extremist selfish idiots?  Then fine, let's hang them.  But are there any
other plausible scenarios?  I know sometimes I forget how lucky I am to be
an American.  So maybe I can't imagine being so hopeless, oppressed and
beaten down that I would resort to terrorism; I am trying to understand
how someone could do this.

> in essense, western values, value life on earth, wealth, production, and all
> the things
> that our technology, especially the pics, make possible..
> and the embracers of terror hold the opposite dear...

I'm not always proud to be a part of the western way of life.

-Steve

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2001\09\12@015821 by rad0

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> > don't let the issue get clouded by people who try to say that america is
> > somehow at fault here, or that america brought this on itself...
>
> I am trying to understand WHY someone would do this.  What circumstances
> bring about the decision that terrorism is the best course of action?
> Extremist selfish idiots?  Then fine, let's hang them.  But are there any
> other plausible scenarios?  I know sometimes I forget how lucky I am to be
> an American.  So maybe I can't imagine being so hopeless, oppressed and
> beaten down that I would resort to terrorism; I am trying to understand
> how someone could do this.
>
> > in essense, western values, value life on earth, wealth, production, and
all
> > the things
> > that our technology, especially the pics, make possible..
> > and the embracers of terror hold the opposite dear...
>
> I'm not always proud to be a part of the western way of life.
>
> -Steve
>
well, if you're young, that's understandable, but if you're over 25 you're
just stupid...

but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, going thru the ususal drill,
high school,
college, you get a good dose of anti-american drivel--the antidote to which
is
a bit of travel...you'll see what it's like to not have a shower that works
or
a bed that isn't lumpy or roads that go nowhere or police that will take
your
money and these are just the superficial things...the noticable stuff...

life is hard and cheap just about every where except america and western
europe...
sweden's the most like the US and germany's the second most-like but both
are
much more expensive, to get the same as in america...(no offense europe)

and nothing, nowhere, compares with americas roads or cities, in general...
so to constantly dog america, the way the media and the professors do, is
really an exercise in missing the point...go live in the philippines and
have
your electric go out for an hour every night, it's not quaint or fun...it's
just
an inconvienance, a hinderance to a comfortable life...

life is experienced in the material realm, material things make life and
living
better, you should rightly be proud of having a preponderance of material
things in your life, not to be obsessed with it--but it's better to have a
warm
house than a drafty one, and it's better to have a dry house that a leaky
roof...

and believe me, in some countries a leaky roof is normal ... but not usually
in the west...


I was just kidding about the over 25 crack, you've got at least until you're
40....


--just remember, professor's are people who couldn't get real jobs, and when
I
was in school they only needed a 2.0 to become a teacher...

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2001\09\12@051759 by Roman Black

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Nice post James. Even on the other side of
the planet we are totally horrified about these
events. Everyone I talk to is very upset, and
I can only guess how the people closer to the
scene feel.

I think the worst tragedy is not the initial
event, but the aftermath, both direct and also
consequential. There may be a small war with
many more good people killed. There will
definitely be a huge economic and social
consequence, a loss of trust and friendship,
an increase in hate. That may be the terrorists
greatest victory, not the attack but the after-
effects. Don't start hating because of this,
that will just make THEIR "holy war" so much
closer to a reality.
-Roman






James Newton. Admin 3 wrote:
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2001\09\12@175317 by myke predko

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Good post James - I was going to send this to you privately but in reading
over the day's emails I had a couple of comments.


I'm just sorry that a number of people felt it was appropriate to say that
the US had it coming with the way they treat other peoples.  Nobody had this
coming and while the US has made many mistakes over the years in what it has
done and who it has supported, the US government's and its people's
intentions have always been to make this world a safer, more stable place.

It is disappointing that people seem to feel that the only response to this
extreme act of barbarism is a more spectacular and brutal act of barbarism.
I would expect the "appropriate response" would be to identify the
perpetrators, planners and supporters of these crimes and bring them to
trial.

It would also most ably demonstrate the values to which the US is committed
to.


I can understand the outrage of people at the Palestinian's celebration of
the attack - I hope people have also seen that the Palestinian leadership
halted the celebration/demonstration and apologized for it.  Accept that a
great deal of the information on events like this is, more often than not, a
result of some newshound trying to exploit the situation to get more
viewers/readers/listeners/surfers and make money and fame for themselves
from this tragedy.

I don't understand why people are surprised at the inaccuracy of the
reporting.  It took six hours to confirm that the Pentagon was hit by an
airliner (initial reports that I saw, indicated that it was a car bomb).
After a tragedy like this, news organizations will look for information and
quotes that separate them from the others - don't accept that everything you
see or hear on the news is accurate (much of what has been reported can only
be charitably called "gossip").


The same goes for making suggestions on how to prevent hijacking - nobody
knows what really happened here.  I'm sure that some problems with the
process will be discovered, some incredible mistakes in judgement will be
uncovered and some Tom Clancy level of sophisticated hardware will be found
to have been used.  There will be no simple, single fix.


Right now, all we would be can do is offer our hopes, prayers, support and
wait to find out what really happened.

myke

{Original Message removed}

2001\09\13@131116 by Dan Michaels

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myke predko wrote:
..............
>It is disappointing that people seem to feel that the only response to this
>extreme act of barbarism is a more spectacular and brutal act of barbarism.
>I would expect the "appropriate response" would be to identify the
>perpetrators, planners and supporters of these crimes and bring them to
>trial.
>
>It would also most ably demonstrate the values to which the US is committed
>to.
.......

well said.

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2001\09\13@150347 by John Ferrell

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We regret that we have been able to meet your expectations this week. We
have a bit of trouble on the home front at the moment. As soon as we can
de-louse we will be back helping your children and other innocents in spite
of the fact there is no way we can ever do enough for you to keep you from
criticizing us.

We are closing ranks fast and are very proud of our citizens show of
strength and courage under fire. It would help a lot if you could work on
stripping away the graft conditions in your third world countries where 75%
of all we send is denied to the recipients. We are not stupid, but we are
determined.

John Ferrell
6241 Phillippi Rd
Julian NC 27283
Phone: (336)685-9606
Dixie Competition Products
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{Original Message removed}

2001\09\15@182413 by swatchit

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I wonder how those Irish-Americans who so fervently donate money to Northern
Ireland terrorists are feeling now about the pain and suffering they see
caused to their
innocent neighbours by other like-minded scum ?  Keeping their heads down
for a
while, I should think.

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