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'[OT]: Arctic to lose all summer ice by 2100'
2002\12\04@152523 by Russell McMahon

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Arctic to lose all summer ice by 2100.
Lean times ahead for polar bears.
Global warming, as it doesn't exist, of course cannot have anything to do
with it :-)

       http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99993138

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2002\12\04@164737 by Walter Banks

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I have been in the high arctic several times in the last 30 years
there is a big difference in arctic climate in that time. Towns that
used to be accessible by ships 3 out of 5 years to drop off supplies
now rarely need icebreakers to open channels in the summer.

The issue about global warming is complex there have been cycles
in the climate before, the energy output of the SUN varies by 3 or
4% in the short term and may vary by much more than that in a long
term cycle. It has only been the last 10,000 years or so that the
earth has been relatively stable.

That said the greenhouse gases aren't helping.

w..




Russell McMahon wrote:
>
> Arctic to lose all summer ice by 2100.
> Lean times ahead for polar bears.
> Global warming, as it doesn't exist, of course cannot have anything to do
> with it :-)
>
>         http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99993138
>

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2002\12\04@183141 by Wagner Lipnharski

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Walter Banks wrote:
> I have been in the high arctic several times in the last 30 years
> there is a big difference in arctic climate in that time. Towns that
> used to be accessible by ships 3 out of 5 years to drop off supplies
> now rarely need icebreakers to open channels in the summer.
>
> The issue about global warming is complex there have been cycles
> in the climate before, the energy output of the SUN varies by 3 or
> 4% in the short term and may vary by much more than that in a long
> term cycle. It has only been the last 10,000 years or so that the
> earth has been relatively stable.
>
> That said the greenhouse gases aren't helping.


So, you mean, to make sure my SMD PCB kitchen toaster soldering works all
the way correct, I need to add extra outside temperature reading, just in
case the arctic melts away?  Do I need to worry about it now or in 2100?

Don't worry so much, in 2500 we will be all out of here.  MARS and beyond,
here we go!!! we'll mess the entire universe, sooner than you can think.
First Earth, then Mars, you will see, we'll transform mars from RED to
PINK, just to comemorate the seventies, will redesign Mars's valleys to be
a "peace & love sign" and will dump all nuke trash in there and cover with
plastic - rubber - and lead batteries trash (it will take like 20 thousand
years to decompose anyway).  Perhaps we can create a machine to get rid of
all the Earth's trash and jetison it into the deep universe, who knows, the
machine could jetison us first... this is the meaning of the "beyond"
above.

:)

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2002\12\04@183956 by Spehro Pefhany

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At 06:27 PM 12/4/02 -0500, you wrote:


>Don't worry so much, in 2500 we will be all out of here.  MARS and beyond,
>here we go!!! we'll mess the entire universe, sooner than you can think.
>First Earth, then Mars, you will see,  <snip>

Nah, we'll send all the CONVICTS to Mars, and we'll all act
surprised when they show up a hundred or two hundred years later, talking
with a funny accent and trying to peddle their export beer. ;-)

Best regards,

Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..."            "The Journey is the reward"
spam_OUTspeffTakeThisOuTspaminterlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com

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2002\12\04@223922 by M. Adam Davis

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See?  Now you're talking progress.

But remember, we have to start small.  Just repeat to yourself, "Earth
first!  We'll strip mine the other planets later."

-Adam

Wagner Lipnharski wrote:

{Quote hidden}

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2002\12\05@004927 by Wagner Lipnharski

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Some could say... "but the earth planet is just our -actual- spaceship for
this trip, the human race already smoke, drink, take drugs, make wars,
produce lots of biochemical weapons, nukes, poison and kill each other for
milleniums, etc, they just don't care about their own health, why they will
care about the transport vehicle???"

By the way;  did you ever saw a cannon whose projectile can only make
someone's day happy?  or a bomb that can only spread fortune and joy? or a
magnum 45 that when detonating the shell would only make everyone smile?  or
a mach 2 jet fight that opens the bomb compartment doors just to release
1000 lbs of flowers and food seeds?  Human's specialty is enjoy destruction
and watch others take hell.  You can see a bunch of people getting around a
guy in the asphalt, lots of them will be asking "What happened, what
happened", instead of "what can I do?", they are interested to know if the
guy really got extreme hell or else (else?).  Just see what happens in your
lane when there is an accident in the opposite direction, in a 8 lanes
highway...  people climb windows to see other's suffering and disaster,
there will be a bunch that will pull over the grass just to go there and
make sure there was hell happening around.  Climb on your building's roof
edge and yell "I am gonna jump"... and see 2 hundred guys reunited in less
than 10 minutes yelling back to you "jump, jump".  People can come from
miles just to influence your decision.  Stay up there whole day, and will
see many blocks closed by traffic jam, thousands of people trying to have
fun for free, video and photo cameras at easy, TV news crews fighting to get
the best angle, some guys adjusting and exercising the cameras tripod to
make sure they would be able to get the whole path, from roof to ground.
Funny living creatures.

45 zillion tons of  ice melting is nothing!  just "little fish, kids play,
piece of cake", nah?  it is just water, right?  so what? will raise the
oceans 10 meters, warm the planet 20 degrees, so what? just move to
California hills, or buy a condo at the 30th floor and a solar cream SFP200,
right? that's easy.

humans, umph!  anything worse? yeah! humans vested in technology!

;)
Wagner.

{Original Message removed}

2002\12\05@065206 by Jinx

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> humans, umph!  anything worse? yeah! humans vested in technology!
>
> ;)
> Wagner.

http://www.lionlamb.org/

Check out The Dirty Dozen to see what's on offer for kids toys.
I've seen "Forward Command Post". Very Ugly. Hard to change
grown-ups, maybe education/efforts to let kids have childhoods
again instead of being little adults will pay off. Can't see it though.
Technology or no technology, human behaviour has hardly changed
through the millenia. We're just more efficient at violence now and
seem to have less remorse or consideration for others than you'd
expect for a "modern" society

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2002\12\05@070314 by Russell McMahon

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> 45 zillion tons of  ice melting is nothing!  just "little fish, kids play,
> piece of cake", nah?  it is just water, right?  so what? will raise the
> oceans 10 meters,

Arctic ice melting more or less doesn't affect water levels world-wide as it
is all floating already so displaces it's equal mass of water. The majority
of Antarctic ice is a different matter as it is sitting on a "pedestal".



       RM

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2002\12\05@084007 by Jim

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One should put as much effort and enthusiasm into
RESEARCHING such wild-eyed claims before one
proceeds to PURPORT them just as wildly, lest
someone with actual FACT and DATA lay out the
foolishness of one's poorly-based 'theories' ...

RF Jim

{Original Message removed}

2002\12\05@112752 by Roman Black

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Russell McMahon wrote:
>
> Arctic to lose all summer ice by 2100.
> Lean times ahead for polar bears.
> Global warming, as it doesn't exist, of course cannot have anything to do
> with it :-)


Yeah well the arctic is way too cold now to be of
any use anyway. Warm it up I say. The polar bears will
love the changes, the poor buggers hate hibernating
in the cold months when there's no food anyway. ;o)
-Roman

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2002\12\05@115528 by Roman Black

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Jinx wrote:

> http://www.lionlamb.org/
>
> Check out The Dirty Dozen to see what's on offer for kids toys.
> I've seen "Forward Command Post". Very Ugly. Hard to change
> grown-ups, maybe education/efforts to let kids have childhoods
> again instead of being little adults will pay off. Can't see it though.

Wow there are some SICK people in the world hey?
Imagine never letting healthy kids play guns or
hunting games, what a sure-fire way to mess up their
heads from an early age. Like strict catholic girls
that turn into super-snacks as soon as they're old
enough to be out roaming on their own, heck we all
knew (biblical sense?) those girls...

> Technology or no technology, human behaviour has hardly changed
> through the millenia.

Yes, and it won't change anytime soon, no matter how
many politically correct committee head cases there
are trying to force normal people to think like they do.

For thousands of years we have HAD to hunt and kill,
the same instinctive patterns that healthy kids practice
hunting each other around the yard with toy guns (or
homemade bows and arrows) are the instincts that will
make them successful in their education, careers and
business lives. It's a well known fact that people
(male and female) with higher testosterone levels
are more successful, higher paid and reach higher
career levels.

Yes they have a greater tendency towards violence, but
they also have a greater tendency to not take sh#t
in their career, and greater tendency to push themselves
to higher levels of achievement. I didn't make this up,
it is a fact. If your definition of "aggression" is
100% negative you need a dictionary and a reality
lesson.

Sure, take away the toy guns, just be aware that you
are condemning your children to a life of being the
meek downtrodden losers at the bottom of the career
foodchain. But that's ok, they will probably gravitate
to jobs as committee members anyway where they achieve
very little and bitch and whine an awful lot about the
actions of the REAL movers and shakers. <grin>
-Roman

PS. In case it's not obvious yet i'm for the human
species to continue onwards and outwards, which means
*aggressively* chasing our dreams. Don't destroy your
kids chances before they even start to compete in
the real world.

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2002\12\05@125047 by Wagner Lipnharski

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Russell McMahon wrote:
>> 45 zillion tons of  ice melting is nothing!  just "little fish, kids
>> play, piece of cake", nah?  it is just water, right?  so what? will
>> raise the oceans 10 meters,
>
> Arctic ice melting more or less doesn't affect water levels
> world-wide as it is all floating already so displaces it's equal mass
> of water. The majority of Antarctic ice is a different matter as it
> is sitting on a "pedestal".


Nah ha.
What will raise the oceans is not the actual ice melting, but the
temperature that did it.
Increasing ocean temperatures, also increases water volume substantially.
Wagner.

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2002\12\05@130048 by Dale Botkin

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> > http://www.lionlamb.org/

"Violent games rated as appropriate for schoolchildren send confusing
messages in a zero-tolerance world."

Hmm.  Perhaps both need to move a little toward the middle.  Less video
gore, AND less drive to create what some loonies percieve as a perfect
"zero-tolerance" world.  I fight daily to let my kids know that the
schools' attitudes and policies are just as unrealistic in the real world
as are the incredibly inane cartoons and video games they seem to think
are cool.

Dale

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2002\12\05@132825 by Mike Singer

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Dale Botkin wrote:
              ....  I fight daily to let my kids know that the
> schools' attitudes and policies are just as unrealistic in
> the real world as are the incredibly inane cartoons and
> video games they seem to think are cool.

  I do it also but with no success. Could you share ideas
how to win the battle against sort of Tom & Jerry stuff ?
I mean how to achieve she would decide not to see the
damned kind of  cartoons.

  Mike.

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2002\12\05@133621 by Dale Botkin

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On Thu, 5 Dec 2002, Mike Singer wrote:

> Dale Botkin wrote:
>                ....  I fight daily to let my kids know that the
> > schools' attitudes and policies are just as unrealistic in
> > the real world as are the incredibly inane cartoons and
> > video games they seem to think are cool.
>
>    I do it also but with no success. Could you share ideas
> how to win the battle against sort of Tom & Jerry stuff ?
> I mean how to achieve she would decide not to see the
> damned kind of  cartoons.

Tom & Jerry is fine, it's most new stuff and most of the Japanime that is
so popular here now (and I cannot for te life of me figure out why).  I
don't have a problem with T&J, old Loony Tunes, Johnny Quest, etc.  As for
how to get them off of it...  all I have found to work is turning off the
boob tube, or gettig rid of it altogether.  I do't think there is any way
to get a (young) kid to decide on their own not to watch cartoons.  If
there were they wouldn't need parents, I guess.

Dale

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2002\12\05@134908 by Peter L. Peres

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On Wed, 4 Dec 2002, M. Adam Davis wrote:

*>See?  Now you're talking progress.
*>
*>But remember, we have to start small.  Just repeat to yourself, "Earth
*>first!  We'll strip mine the other planets later."

If any ET is looking upon our development so far and sees us expand at the
current state of 'civilisation' imho they would likely decide to delete
our solar system just to be safe.

Peter

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2002\12\05@142010 by Jinx

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> Sure, take away the toy guns, just be aware that you
> are condemning your children to a life of being the
> meek downtrodden losers at the bottom of the career
> foodchain

I have to disagree in the case of something like Forward
Command Post. Don't you think that game has crossed
a line ? Toy soldiers, guns, swords etc, not really a problem
for me. A reaistic scenario like that as entertainment for
5-year-olds is something else. And in gun-crazy America ?
Hardly any surprise there's a back-lash

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2002\12\05@142426 by hard Prosser

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A TV program the other night claimed that the sea level would rise just due
to the expansion of the water as it heated up - even a fraction degree of
difference would raise the water level a few inches I think they said.
Seemed a bit extreme at the time but I haven't tried to calculate it
myself. Any thoughts?
Cubic quantity of seawater = ?
bulk temperature expansion coefficient of seawater = ?
Suface area of sea = ?
From this it should be reasonably easy to work out the change in height
(approximately) for a given temperatur rise - I just haven't got the
figures yet!

RP



Arctic ice melting more or less doesn't affect water levels world-wide as
it
is all floating already so displaces it's equal mass of water. The majority
of Antarctic ice is a different matter as it is sitting on a "pedestal".



       RM

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2002\12\05@145338 by Andrew Warren

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Richard Prosser <.....PICLISTKILLspamspam@spam@mitvma.mit.edu> wrote:

> A TV program the other night claimed that the sea level would rise
> just due to the expansion of the water as it heated up - even a
> fraction degree of difference would raise the water level a few
> inches I think they said. Seemed a bit extreme at the time but I
> haven't tried to calculate it myself. Any thoughts? Cubic quantity
> of seawater = ?

   1,370,000,000 cubic kilometers.

> bulk temperature expansion coefficient of seawater = ?

   Varies according to temperature.  At 0 degrees C, it's 0.000051
   per degree C.  At 15 degrees C, it's 0.000214 per degree C.  At
   31 degrees C, it's 0.000334 per degree C.

> Suface area of sea = ?

   70.8 percent of the Earth's surface.  Earth's surface area is
   approximately 511,210,000 square kilometers, so surface area of
   the sea is approximately 361,937,000 square kilometers.

   -Andy

=== Andrew Warren -- aiwspamKILLspamcypress.com
=== Principal Design Engineer
=== Cypress Semiconductor Corporation
===
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2002\12\05@145549 by Jinx

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> Yes they have a greater tendency towards violence, but
> they also have a greater tendency to not take sh#t
> in their career, and greater tendency to push themselves
> to higher levels of achievement. I didn't make this up,
> it is a fact. If your definition of "aggression" is
> 100% negative you need a dictionary and a reality
> lesson.

OK, then why not split kids up into groups at age 5 to
selectively channel aggression. One group can be the
elite and only fighting force to fight wars - they get the
Junior Sniper and Steroids For Tots. Another group gets
the Li'l Merchant Banker activity centre. Yet another group
gets the Light Bulb Stove - the future cooking show hosts.
Good God we need more of those. The best and most
privileged group of course has the wind-up soldering iron
and My First Micro (Truckers Choice amphetamines not
included)

I do empathise with your points btw, I'm not a total wuss.
The sandal-wearers have had their go

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2002\12\05@151629 by Peter L. Peres

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On Fri, 6 Dec 2002, Richard Prosser wrote:

*>A TV program the other night claimed that the sea level would rise just due
*>to the expansion of the water as it heated up - even a fraction degree of
*>difference would raise the water level a few inches I think they said.
*>Seemed a bit extreme at the time but I haven't tried to calculate it
*>myself. Any thoughts?
*>Cubic quantity of seawater = ?
*>bulk temperature expansion coefficient of seawater = ?
*>Suface area of sea = ?
*>>From this it should be reasonably easy to work out the change in height
*>(approximately) for a given temperatur rise - I just haven't got the
*>figures yet!

Simplify: average depth of ocean (hundreds of meters at least), expansion
coefficient of H2O near 10C average temperature of same, by 2 degrees or
so. Result: probably next to nothing. I seem to remember that the ocean is
at a near constant 4 degrees C everywhere beyond a certain depth except
where currents disturb this.

Peter

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2002\12\05@152436 by Wagner Lipnharski

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Dale Botkin wrote:
{Quote hidden}

Other night I just pulled a TV channel with a nice and smooth children
movie about a bear cub or something like that.  My two kids didn't enjoy at
beginning but after few minutes they couldn't take eyes from the movie
until the end.  It was a calm, nature related, animal behavior, positive
moral and species relationship. There was no any Japa-anime fights or angry
faces, guns, knifes or swords involved.  This, considering that my young
boy is master in draw all that japa-anime long hair fighters.  You see that
if we could (and I think we must) block any violent life polarization
inside home, not turning our homes in nazi camps, but with the correct
orientation during the young ages, they will learn by themselves what is
valid or not for life.  We should NOT expect our governments or the TV
packet chains to do something.  Of course you MUST be able to control what
happens inside your own home, if not, resign from the "intelligent decision
maker" position and leave wife to take the due control.

Best of all?  Road Runner and the Coyote, it beats anything else. I have
being at the coyote side for years now. Poor guy.

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2002\12\05@153653 by Peter L. Peres

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On Thu, 5 Dec 2002, Andrew Warren wrote:

*>> bulk temperature expansion coefficient of seawater = ?
*>
*>    Varies according to temperature.  At 0 degrees C, it's 0.000051
*>    per degree C.  At 15 degrees C, it's 0.000214 per degree C.  At
*>    31 degrees C, it's 0.000334 per degree C.

The average depth of the global ocean is listed at 3800m. So for 15
degrees C rise of temperature (which is enormous and impossible afaik but
based on the fact that some sources quote up to 5% sun output fluctuations
and ambient temperature ~= 300K)  from 15C to 30C and taking worst case
figures (from 31C) we get a rise of 12.6 meters (30 feet ?) over maybe 300
years. This is to be regarded as an absolute maximum number, since I
picked data at will. Of course if something would heat the ocean that much
we'd have other problems besides worrying about water level imho.

Deep ocean water is much colder than the surface (at near constant 4C) so
the numbers above are widely exaggerated.

See also:

http://yosemite.epa.gov/oar/globalwarming.nsf/content/Climate.html

The last paragraph.

Peter

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2002\12\05@154509 by Wagner Lipnharski

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Andrew Warren wrote:
> Richard Prosser <.....PICLISTKILLspamspam.....mitvma.mit.edu> wrote:
>
>> A TV program the other night claimed that the sea level would rise
>> just due to the expansion of the water as it heated up - even a
>> fraction degree of difference would raise the water level a few
>> inches I think they said. Seemed a bit extreme at the time but I
>> haven't tried to calculate it myself. Any thoughts? Cubic quantity
>> of seawater = ?
>
>     1,370,000,000 cubic kilometers.
>
>> bulk temperature expansion coefficient of seawater = ?
>
>     Varies according to temperature.  At 0 degrees C, it's 0.000051
>     per degree C.  At 15 degrees C, it's 0.000214 per degree C.  At
>     31 degrees C, it's 0.000334 per degree C.

...then lets suppose all the water volume is at 0°C for the sake of the
calculation, and considering 1.37x10^9 cubic kilometers, expansion of
0.000051/°C. Consider temperature increase in only 5°C, it means 0.00025
(2.5x10-4), lets also consider that this expansion only happens over 10% of
the ocean water, over 1.37x10^8 = around 3.4x10^4 cubic kilometers of water
expansion, spread over 3.61x10^4 square kilometers of the water surface, it
results in aprox 100 meters above actual sea level. We know that the water
surface does not represent the same of the bottom, the pressure will stay
the same, what means it will not compress more water in the deep levels.
The seas will be invading land in a proportion around 85%, so probably only
15 meters will be the extra sea level increase.  But also, remember that
this calculation is using the 0°C expansion coefficient as average, and not
the real numbers that are bigger.   Can someone project what means
increasing sea levels over the global map, and see what stays dry?  Can you
imagine  what could happens with fertile lands? population concentration?
I will start to think to buy a nice boat to live in  ;)

Wagner.



{Quote hidden}

/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
Wagner Lipnharski - UST Research Inc
Orlando FLorida - USA - http://www.ustr.net
/_/_/_/ Atmel AVR Consultant /_/_/_/

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2002\12\05@155325 by Peter L. Peres

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On Thu, 5 Dec 2002, Wagner Lipnharski wrote:

*>Best of all?  Road Runner and the Coyote, it beats anything else. I have
*>being at the coyote side for years now. Poor guy.

You mean, as a form of non-violent educative and instructive recreation,
with examples for kids of what to do with their little brothers/sisters
after watching 7 rocks dropped on coyote's head, coyote impaled on 5
different cactuses, smartly bent branch hitting coyote in the muzzle when
released, coyote running off cliff and falling for several seconds, coyote
appears in bandages and plaster, badly hurt, barely walking (laughter,
applause). I admit it is funny to watch when you are mature, as a
diversion.

Somehow I think that playing with plastic arrows or even a tennis ball
catapult in the garden a few times is less violence-inducing and could
teach something useful. Maybe your opinion is different.

I do like cartoons but I take a different view of them than I used to. I
like Oblio for example, as an adult cartoon, and there are many others. I
have a round head and some of these days they'll run me out of town ;-)

Peter

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2002\12\05@162358 by Peter L. Peres

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A good link wrt ocean temperature and how it is measured:

http://atoc.ucsd.edu/Explorations_f98/Atoc.html

Peter

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2002\12\05@163207 by Mike Singer

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Wagner Lipnharski wrote:

> ... Of course you MUST be able to control what happens
> inside your own home, if not, resign from the "intelligent
> decision maker" position and leave wife to take the due
> control.

  I'll lose her among television serials. She is home-sitting wife. Don't know how to control this aspect of our life too.


> Best of all?  Road Runner and the Coyote, it beats anything
> else. I have being at the coyote side for years now. Poor guy.

  The same unmotivated violence. I'm absolutely not joking. :-(    I prefer "Chip and Dale, rescue rangers" and that one about Uncle Scruge McDuck and his three nephew ducklings.

  Mike.

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2002\12\05@163950 by Mike Singer

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Peter L. Peres wrote:
> On Thu, 5 Dec 2002, Wagner Lipnharski wrote:
>
> *>Best of all?  Road Runner and the Coyote, it beats anything else. I
> have
> *>being at the coyote side for years now. Poor guy.
>
> You mean, as a form of non-violent educative and instructive
> recreation,
> with examples for kids of what to do with their little
brothers/sisters
{Quote hidden}

  Agree. :-(
(Sorry for not clipping)

  Mike.

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2002\12\05@170945 by William Chops Westfield

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   Best of all?  Road Runner and the Coyote, it beats anything else. I have
   being at the coyote side for years now. Poor guy.

Really?  I've seen complaints in "parents" mailing lists that while older
road-runner cartoons are ok, in the newer ones RR has gone from "clever
creature succesfully defending himself fomr predator" to "sadistic bastard
torturing dumb animal who was just trying to eat."  We don't watch RR very
often, but I think I've seen both types; you'd have to lay them out
chronologically for me to be sure it was an "old vs new" thing...

BillW

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2002\12\05@172622 by Mike Singer

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Dale Botkin wrote:
> Tom & Jerry is fine, it's most new stuff and most of the Japanime that
is
> so popular here now (and I cannot for te life of me figure out why).
I
> don't have a problem with T&J, old Loony Tunes, Johnny Quest, etc.  As
for
> how to get them off of it...  all I have found to work is turning off
the
> boob tube, or gettig rid of it altogether.  I do't think there is any
way
> to get a (young) kid to decide on their own not to watch cartoons.  If
> there were they wouldn't need parents, I guess.

  Sad to say, Dale, we've broken the iron curtain just to realize
that the freedom of choice is a dangerous thing, which should be handled with care.

  Mike.

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2002\12\05@173632 by Peter L. Peres

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On Fri, 6 Dec 2002, Mike Singer wrote:

*>   Sad to say, Dale, we've broken the iron curtain just to realize
*>that the freedom of choice is a dangerous thing, which should
*>be handled with care.

I am not Dale, but you haven't broken anything. The freedom of choice is
something that you need to learn to live with, not 'handle with care'.
It has good and bad parts like anything else. If you don't like it you can
always elect a despot and go back 50-60 years.  I'd suggest you seriously
talk to someone who remembers this before you do it though ...

Peter

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2002\12\05@175645 by Wagner Lipnharski

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Peter L. Peres wrote:
> On Thu, 5 Dec 2002, Wagner Lipnharski wrote:
>
> *>Best of all?  Road Runner and the Coyote, it beats anything else. I
> have *>being at the coyote side for years now. Poor guy.
>
> You mean, as a form of non-violent educative and instructive
> recreation, with examples for kids of what to do with their little
> brothers/sisters after watching 7 rocks dropped on coyote's head,
> coyote impaled on 5 different cactuses, smartly bent branch hitting
> coyote in the muzzle when released, coyote running off cliff and
> falling for several seconds, coyote appears in bandages and plaster,
> badly hurt, barely walking (laughter, applause). I admit it is funny
> to watch when you are mature, as a diversion.


well, it is funny even for kids, mostly showing the coyote implying the
bandage results to itself, as a lesson for pursuing "bad intentions". I
always got lost when they ask me how the coyote can survive if he never
catches the bird...

When the kids comment that if the coyote replaces or improves something in
the trick it should work - I can't decide if the thought was productive or
not, since it created a flame of intelligence use instead of only follows
the guided trash of Gohan (jap-)animate.

For instance, the most important is the message, cactuses or piles or rocks
are something that represent penalties or fines you pay when you do
something wrong.  Gohan in counterpart only fight, and the important
message is to be stronger to fight harder the enemy. Pokimon was another
example, where only fight force and magic powers were important - at any
moment someone won by being good, peaceful or gently.

We need to remember that if the world is what it is today, we are the
responsible, and only we can change it.  We also need to remember that a
great part of our actual decision makers were junkies in sixties and
seventies.  What can you expect?

:)

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2002\12\05@180931 by Wagner Lipnharski

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William Chops Westfield wrote:
>     Best of all?  Road Runner and the Coyote, it beats anything else.
>     I have being at the coyote side for years now. Poor guy.
>
> Really?  I've seen complaints in "parents" mailing lists that while
> older road-runner cartoons are ok, in the newer ones RR has gone from
> "clever creature succesfully defending himself fomr predator" to
> "sadistic bastard torturing dumb animal who was just trying to eat."
> We don't watch RR very often, but I think I've seen both types; you'd
> have to lay them out chronologically for me to be sure it was an "old
> vs new" thing...
>
> BillW


That's right.  As I said at the begining of this "humans" thread, great
part of the viewers watch RR&Coyote just to see the coyote getting hell.
The interesting, is that most people would choose the RR side, even that it
only appears less than 5% of the cartoon time, and even so, it implies hell
to the poor coyote.  A great difference I noticed is that old RR&Coyote did
show only the coyote damaging itself, the new ones (agree with the parents
lists) the RR is acting to cause damage to the coyote.  As usual, this is
marketing, "sadistic action sells better"... only to an audience in need of
it - it sells millions.  Why do you think Titanic movie made all that
money?

I should declare that I watched RR&Coyote for many years, and probably a
small part of my tendency to not give up on trying to solve problems was
caused by the coyote's lack of it - but I never kill a bird, of course ate
a lot of chicken, but it is not the same thing, is it?

:)

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2002\12\05@181221 by Mike Singer

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Peter L. Peres wrote:
> On Fri, 6 Dec 2002, Mike Singer wrote:
>
> *>   Sad to say, Dale, we've broken the iron curtain just to realize
> *>that the freedom of choice is a dangerous thing, which should
> *>be handled with care.
>
> I am not Dale, but you haven't broken anything. The freedom of choice
is
> something that you need to learn to live with, not 'handle with care'.
> It has good and bad parts like anything else. If you don't like it you
can
> always elect a despot and go back 50-60 years.  I'd suggest you
seriously
> talk to someone who remembers this before you do it though ...


  Peter, do you use to read messages you are replying to ?
In which words did I say:  freedom of choice is the pure bad thing and thus I want to live under dictator.    Let me suggest you should more carefully handle your freedom of choice to avoid choosing the damn mentor style of your posts, especially when they do not relate to original messages.

  Thank you in advance,     truly yours,     Mike.  
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2002\12\05@184550 by Dale Botkin

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On Fri, 6 Dec 2002, Mike Singer wrote:

>    Sad to say, Dale, we've broken the iron curtain just to realize
> that the freedom of choice is a dangerous thing, which should
> be handled with care.

Anything worth having can be dangerous.  8-)

Dale

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2002\12\05@185259 by Dale Botkin

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On Thu, 5 Dec 2002, Wagner Lipnharski wrote:

> For instance, the most important is the message, cactuses or piles or rocks
> are something that represent penalties or fines you pay when you do
> something wrong.  Gohan in counterpart only fight, and the important
> message is to be stronger to fight harder the enemy. Pokimon was another
> example, where only fight force and magic powers were important - at any
> moment someone won by being good, peaceful or gently.

When my oldest son (now 20) was very young, his favorite cartoon was
He-Man.  No bloodshed, lots of superhero-type fighting, always a nice
little moral message from He-Man at the end of each show.  So why was he
becoming such a little terror?  Well, in a more careful analysis, with
each episode you got (minus commercial time) 30 seconds of He-Man giving a
nice moral "be nice" message, and 29.5 minutes of He-Man demonstrating
that no matter what problem or conflict you have, if you hit someone hard
enough anf often enough your prolems would all go away.

We cut him of from that show, to which he of course responded with much
wailing and gnashing of teeth.  He kept the He-Man toys, but no daily dose
of He-man style conflict resolution on TV.  Within two weeks he was once
again a normal, more or less easy-going three year old.  Lesson learned
(by parents).

Dale

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2002\12\05@185506 by Dale Botkin

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On Thu, 5 Dec 2002, Wagner Lipnharski wrote:

> I should declare that I watched RR&Coyote for many years, and probably a
> small part of my tendency to not give up on trying to solve problems was
> caused by the coyote's lack of it - but I never kill a bird, of course ate
> a lot of chicken, but it is not the same thing, is it?

Depends.  Was your chicken caught using a pair of Acme Rocket-Skates, or
maybe an Acme Giant Magnet and steel shot birdseed?  8-)

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2002\12\05@190224 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face
I saw a quote somewhere that is having an impact on how I perceive
the TV my kids might watch:
       "A bad example is is still an example."
This is most pronounced in all those teen flicks where there's this
"you don't have behave as badly as the "cool clique" to be cool" message.
The "cool clique" is still there, and they're still misbehaving, even if
"out hero" does find other ways...

BillW

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2002\12\05@191948 by Jim Rickenbacker

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A nice overview of climate change and global warming (scroll down):
http://www.clearlight.com/~mhieb/WVFossils/Articles1.html

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2002\12\05@193757 by Jim

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Where do you folks get this notion of 'global warming'
anyway?

To me (after perusing though the temp data for a number
of specific wx stations) it seems to be warming in only
*selective* areas (usually due to the recording stations
being affected by the local environ because of
urbanization. Stations located further out from 'urban
sprawl' do not indicate the temp climbs the other, more
out-lying stations show - nor to satellite or balloon
data indicate this 'global warming' phenom).

It *looks* like this is just the fashionable thing for
good-minded folks and 'folks with a conscience' (or folks
who want to be seen as caring) to be concerned with, but
if that were *entirely* true they would be living their
entire lives more like the Amish now anyway (horse and
buggy type existance in a truly rural, agricultural-based
and agrarian society) ...

RF Jim


----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Rickenbacker" <jerickespamspam_OUTATT.NET>
To: <@spam@PICLISTKILLspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2002 6:17 PM
Subject: Re: [OT]: Arctic to lose all summer ice by 2100


> A nice overview of climate change and global warming (scroll down):
> http://www.clearlight.com/~mhieb/WVFossils/Articles1.html
>

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2002\12\06@050443 by Quentin

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>
> Depends.  Was your chicken caught using a pair of Acme Rocket-Skates, or
> maybe an Acme Giant Magnet and steel shot birdseed?  8-)

OK, now for a trivia question that I wanted an answer for for years:
What does ACME stand for as used by WB?
--
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KILLspamqscKILLspamspamiptech.co.za
http://www.iptech.co.za

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2002\12\06@050855 by Chris Hunter

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Wagner Lipnharski" <spamBeGonewagnerspamBeGonespamUSTR.NET>
To: <TakeThisOuTPICLISTEraseMEspamspam_OUTMITVMA.MIT.EDU>

//snip//

> but I never kill a bird, of course ate
> a lot of chicken, but it is not the same thing, is it?

My vegetarian friends will complain that it is!

Chris

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2002\12\06@053651 by Russell McMahon

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flavicon
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> > but I never kill a bird, of course ate
> > a lot of chicken, but it is not the same thing, is it?

> My vegetarian friends will complain that it is!

       So will my chicken friends !

       And I imagine that the dozen+ wild ducks that frequent
       our property would have a similar opinion. :-)



               RM

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2002\12\06@054728 by Russell McMahon

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> > Depends.  Was your chicken caught using a pair of Acme Rocket-Skates, or
> > maybe an Acme Giant Magnet and steel shot birdseed?  8-)
>
> OK, now for a trivia question that I wanted an answer for for years:
> What does ACME stand for as used by WB?

           re Road Runner .... / ACME / Wiley Coyote / ....


As I understand it -

After WW2 (and perhaps before for all I know) there  was an upsurge of young
bright hopeful industry with tradenames that epitomised the spirit of the
times (at least of you were amongst the Allied Forces :-) ). ACME seemed to
be a brand name that was used by many on all sorts of things. Acme means
literally "the best", "the ultimate". My mother had an ACME brand hand
turned clothes ringer as I recall.

WB may have had something else in mind but I see it as a dry comment on
product branding in line with the original somewhat tongue in cheek nature
of the original program.



       RM

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2002\12\06@070433 by Mark Perri

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If anyone is interested in learning about the science behind global warming
and its effects there are plenty of journal articles to read. Good places to
start are Science, Nature, and the summary known as the IPCC 3AR (Third
Assessment Report). Athough, I wouldn't want to spoil your fun of trying to
figure out all the variables that go into calculating the increase in sea
level due to climate change.

Mark

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2002\12\06@075755 by Jinx

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> Athough, I wouldn't want to spoil your fun of trying to figure
> out all the variables that go into calculating the increase in
> sea level due to climate change

Sponge farms ?

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2002\12\06@082738 by Roman Black

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Jinx wrote:
>
> > Sure, take away the toy guns, just be aware
>
> I have to disagree in the case of something like Forward
> Command Post. Don't you think that game has crossed
> a line ? Toy soldiers, guns, swords etc, not really a problem
> for me. A reaistic scenario like that as entertainment for
> 5-year-olds is something else. And in gun-crazy America ?
> Hardly any surprise there's a back-lash


Kids are kids and soldiers are soldiers. Even without
plastic toy props kids are going to play war games etc.
The games kids make in their heads (which IS a healthy
part of mental development) are just as violent as
anything you will see on TV. I remember being about
10 years old and playing "sniper" in the treehouse,
trying to dig man traps and getting too tired before
we got it 18 inches deep, etc etc. Didn't matter that
we only had toy guns carved from wood, whether the
toys are there or not the children NEED to practice
and develop these skills and will do so unless forced
to deny their natural development.

Ever seen kittens or puppies biting and wrestling each
other? Would it be better to isolate them and force
them to abandon such violent practices?

Probably the greatest problem I see today for children
is total apathy and lack of drive. How much better to see
them building treehouses, sourcing materials, hitting
their thumbs with hammers and even play hunting each
other in teams, than to sit brainless in a sterile
safe room with the playstation...
-Roman

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2002\12\06@084241 by Roman Black

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Jinx wrote:

> OK, then why not split kids up into groups at age 5 to
> selectively channel aggression. One group can be the
> elite and only fighting force to fight wars - they get the
> Junior Sniper and Steroids For Tots. Another group gets
> the Li'l Merchant Banker activity centre.

Hee hee!

> Yet another group
> gets the Light Bulb Stove - the future cooking show hosts.
> Good God we need more of those. The best and most
> privileged group of course has the wind-up soldering iron
> and My First Micro (Truckers Choice amphetamines not
> included)

Yep sounds a lot like one of George Orwell's visions.
Just stamp an A++ on my shoulder please. Bummer that
increasingly the world seems to be run more by
the C's. Heck who else would settle for government
red tape and brain dead workmates... ;o)

> > If your definition of "aggression" is
> > 100% negative you need a dictionary and a reality
> > lesson.
>
> I do empathise with your points btw, I'm not a total wuss.
> The sandal-wearers have had their go

Sorry, I assumed you knew my reply was not directed
at "you" personally but "you misguided people" who
instantly assume that all things aggressive are
bad. I sure hope there are some aggressive people
left in the world, the valiant few aggressively
hunting a cancer cure for instance. :o)
-Roman

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2002\12\06@084701 by Roman Black

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Andrew Warren wrote:
>
> > A TV program the other night claimed that the sea level would rise
> > just due to the expansion of the water as it heated up - even a
> > fraction degree of difference would raise the water level a few
> > inches I think they said.

No. Only the top (very thin) layer is affected
significantly by climate temperature rise. The hot
water stays at the top for some reason and the bulk,
probably 99.9% of the volume will not be affected.
:o)
-Roman

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2002\12\06@084704 by Hazelwood Lyle

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part 1 105 bytes content-type:text/plain; (decoded quoted-printable)


I know where the ice is going...

see attachment.

Lyle


part 2 30531 bytes content-type:image/jpeg; (decode)


part 3 136 bytes
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2002\12\06@084912 by Roman Black

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Dale Botkin wrote:

> Depends.  Was your chicken caught using a pair of Acme Rocket-Skates, or
> maybe an Acme Giant Magnet and steel shot birdseed?  8-)


Hey! Don't knock ACME. They are awesome leaders in
cheap high-tech products and their door-to-door
delivery service is by far the best in the world.
;o)
-Roman

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2002\12\06@090542 by Roman Black

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> On Thu, 5 Dec 2002, Wagner Lipnharski wrote:
>
> > For instance, the most important is the message, cactuses or piles or rocks
> > are something that represent penalties or fines you pay when you do
> > something wrong.  Gohan in counterpart only fight, and the important
> > message is to be stronger to fight harder the enemy.

Gohan may not be the bad role model you think.
I have watched numerous Dragonball Z episodes
and there is a HUGE emphasis on the enormous
training workload of the fighters, constantly
pushing themselves to new strengths and abilities.
There is a very large emphasis on teamwork and
sacrifice, and although at the end of the series
there tends to be a rather violent "fightdown"
the bulk of the episodes show in true Japanese
fashion the massive dedication of the fighters
to improving themselves. It's more a show about
working hard and growing better, than about
fighting. The Japanese networks are training
their children MUCH better than the US networks...
-Roman

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2002\12\06@093211 by D. Jay Newman

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> Gohan may not be the bad role model you think.
> I have watched numerous Dragonball Z episodes
> and there is a HUGE emphasis on the enormous
> training workload of the fighters, constantly
> pushing themselves to new strengths and abilities.

I am also a DragonBall fan. Both the early series
(DragonBall) and the later series (DragonBall Z)
*strongly* emphasize Goku's kindness and sense of
fair play. He always gives opponents a chance to
surrender, even when it puts him at a disadvantage
and endangers the world/universe.

And I think more than strength and skill, it is Goku's
willpower and unwillingness to give up that makes him
a hero to me.

He also has a playfulness about him, even as an
adult that makes him a good role-model. He is
open-minded and always kind. Even though he is hugely
more powerful than his friends, he treats them as
equals, and expects to be treated as an equal in turn.

Gohan (Goku's son) is a bit more serious as he gets
older, but Goten (Goku's younger son) is like a young
Goku.

The three of them are probably some of the best role-models
for children that I've seen in cartoons anywhere.

Many of the heros in the later episodes started as villains
in earlier episodes, but were convinced by Goku's ways to
change their own ways. Goku doesn't preach, he lives his
life, and people around him try to live up to this standard
(even Vegeta, who though extremely arrogant and full of anger,
eventually learns that there is a time and place to be a hero).
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2002\12\06@100947 by Dal Wheeler

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Heh,  This reminds me of a friend in EE school that accredited some of his
interest in electronics to the fact that his father would cut the cord to
the television when he thought they were watching it too much.  They'd sneek
in and splice the cable long enough to get a bit of afternoon cartoons in
before dad got off of work.
{Original Message removed}

2002\12\06@110424 by Mike Singer

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Roman Black wrote:
> Andrew Warren wrote:
> > > A TV program the other night claimed that the sea level would rise
> > > just due to the expansion of the water as it heated up - even a
> > > fraction degree of difference would raise the water level a few
> > > inches I think they said.
>
> No. Only the top (very thin) layer is affected
> significantly by climate temperature rise. The hot
> water stays at the top for some reason and the bulk,
> probably 99.9% of the volume will not be affected.

Hi, Roman.
  Ocean water is constantly moving in all directions at all levels of depth "for some reason". Besides, how do you think what is the temperature of the underlying beds few kilometers under oceans?

  Mike :-)

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2002\12\06@162017 by Jim

flavicon
face
> 5-year-olds is something else. And in gun-crazy America ?
> Hardly any surprise there's a back-lash

I don't see the point, Jinx. Not at all!

I grew up with all manner of 'guns' (and these same
cartoons that have been described in discussion) -

BB-guns, single-action spring, pump and CO2 powered
cap-guns - I had one particular snub-nosed .357 model
(as carried by detectives) that I was fond of
squirt-guns - I loved my plastic see-through yellow Lugar
(and yes, I knew where it derived!) and several
long rifle 22's that we kids practiced with while Dad
 supervised as we plinked cans in the 'gravel pit'.

I think in contrast to your statement I developed a great
deal of respect for guns back then (especially the plinking
and safety training done with Dad) and to this day don't
own anything more potent than a couple of CO2 powered
target plinkers sutable for inside range use ...

The LARGE problem I see is insufficient GUN TRAINING and the
inherent RESPECT that it fosters for firearms ... as a sidenote
I usually listen several Police Departments in the area and
hear *no* (and ours is a 'Conceal and Carry State!) reports
of gun battles in the streets!

Didn't you (or was it the Aussies) just ban them all - with
SURPRISING (<sarcasm>) good results?

RF Jim


{Original Message removed}

2002\12\06@163505 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
On Sat, 7 Dec 2002, Roman Black wrote:

*>Yep sounds a lot like one of George Orwell's visions.
*>Just stamp an A++ on my shoulder please. Bummer that
*>increasingly the world seems to be run more by
*>the C's. Heck who else would settle for government
*>red tape and brain dead workmates... ;o)

And everyone else's dough. Who needs Orwell when you have DMCA and UCITA.
And it is spreading slowly.

Peter

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2002\12\06@170529 by Jinx

face picon face
> Kids are kids and soldiers are soldiers. Even without
> plastic toy props kids are going to play war games etc.
> The games kids make in their heads (which IS a healthy
> part of mental development) are just as violent as
> anything you will see on TV.

"aggression" doesn't seem quite the right word. Drive,
confidence, assertion or ambition work better for me. I had
a great childhood and got up to all kinds of things that maybe
my parents would be better off not knowing about, but I don't
recall being overly "aggressive". Our gang just had fun

> Probably the greatest problem I see today for children
> is total apathy and lack of drive. How much better to see
> them building treehouses, sourcing materials, hitting
> their thumbs with hammers and even play hunting each
> other in teams, than to sit brainless in a sterile
> safe room with the playstation....

Absolutely. Any time I drop into the 2nd hand tool shop I always
pick up something for my nephew. Smarts can get you by in
life but being practical can get you further. Basic DIY skills for
example

============================================

A National Public Radio interview between a female broadcaster
and US Army General Ross Reinwald, who was about to sponsor
a Boy Scout Troop visiting his military installation.

INTERVIEWER: " So, General Reinwald, what things are you going
to teach these young boys when they visit your base ?"

GENERAL REINWALD: 'We're going to teach them climbing, canoeing,
archery and shooting."

INTERVIEWER: "Shooting !  That's a bit irresponsible, isn't it ?"

GENERAL REINWALD: "I don't see why, they'll be properly supervised
on the rifle range."

INTERVIEWER: "Don't you admit that this is a terribly dangerous
activity to be teaching children ?"

GENERAL REINWALD:  "I don't see how, ....we will be teaching them
proper rifle range discipline before they even touch a firearm."

INTERVIEWER: "But you're equipping them to become violent killers."

GENERAL REINWALD: "Well, you're equipped to be a prostitute, but
you're not one, are you ?"

The radio went silent and the interview ended

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2002\12\06@171306 by Jinx

face picon face
> > 5-year-olds is something else. And in gun-crazy America ?
> > Hardly any surprise there's a back-lash
>
> I don't see the point, Jinx. Not at all!
>
> I grew up with all manner of 'guns' (and these same
> cartoons that have been described in discussion) -
>
> BB-guns, single-action spring, pump and CO2 powered
> cap-guns - I had one particular snub-nosed .357 model

Me too. As an outsider it just appears to me that the US is
strongly polarised wrt to "the right to bear arms". The NRA
is a very vocal and prominent lobby group, and I suspect no
other country has quite an equivalent. The opposing view to
the NRA is put forward with just the same vigour

> I think in contrast to your statement I developed a great
> deal of respect for guns back then (especially the plinking
>
> The LARGE problem I see is insufficient GUN TRAINING
> and the inherent RESPECT that it fosters for firearms ...

See my reply to Roman about Gen Griswald. I agree with
you and the General. My surprise was at such a "toy" being
offered with a 3+ age rating

> Didn't you (or was it the Aussies) just ban them all - with
> SURPRISING (<sarcasm>) good results?
>
> RF Jim

The argument is that by banning guns you merely remove them
from legitimate society. The crims will always find one. AFAIK
Mac-10s and Uzis are not yet available on the streets of NZ, but
I believe this country, because of it's rural nature, has the biggest
shotgun-per-capita in the world. Pistols and assault rifles in crime
in NZ are quite rare. The sawn-off is most popular

It was the Aussies who banned assault rifles - I've no idea what
that's done to crime figures. I think it was a response to the Port
Arthur massacre. Sure, it only takes one nutter to wreak such havoc,
but if the weapons are less available, there's the perception that
makes it less likely such a nutter could carry out his intentions. But
it still happens from time to time. The problem is that you can't
really say what would have happened if they had or hadn't been
banned if it's only individuals who commit such crimes

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2002\12\06@172122 by rad0

picon face
jinx said:

> It was the Aussies who banned assault rifles - I've no idea what
> that's done to crime figures. I think it was a response to the Port

read it and weep, I guess


www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0226493636/102-6270425-4199354
?vi=glance

'More Guns, Less Crime'

the reviews and comments are interesting.

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2002\12\06@173159 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face
>    As an outsider it just appears to me that the US is
>    strongly polarised wrt to "the right to bear arms".

It's not just "arms" - it's violence in general.  The days when Father
Murphy lead the catholic school boxing team to victory are gone.  The days
when you could "step outside and settle this" are gone.  Everything is
subject to inappropriate escalation and/or legal action.  You have to worry
about stab and and gunshot wounds from the school bully, instead of just
black eyes.  And the "school bully" (or not) can get expelled for having the
pocketknife he uses at work, as easilly as for actual violent crimes.

Polarized is right.  It sucks.

BillW

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2002\12\06@182131 by Andrew Warren

flavicon
face
Jinx <spamBeGonePICLIST@spam@spamspam_OUTmitvma.mit.edu> wrote:

> GENERAL REINWALD: "Well, you're equipped to be a prostitute, but
> you're not one, are you ?"

   Fiction.  See:

       http://www.snopes.com/military/reinwald.htm

   -Andy

=== Andrew Warren -- TakeThisOuTaiwspamspamcypress.com
=== Principal Design Engineer
=== Cypress Semiconductor Corporation
===
=== Opinions expressed above do not
=== necessarily represent those of
=== Cypress Semiconductor Corporation

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2002\12\06@182749 by Jinx

face picon face
>     Fiction.  See:
>
>         http://www.snopes.com/military/reinwald.htm
>
>     -Andy

Oh well. Still works as an argument though. Capacity or ability
to do something doesn't necessarily lead to implementation

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2002\12\06@184623 by rtkcomms

flavicon
face
>     Fiction.  See:
>
>         http://www.snopes.com/military/reinwald.htm
>
>     -Andy

Nevertheless, the comment alluded to have been made by the NPR interviewer
is precisely the leftist thinking one would expect from that network.  And
to think my tax money goes to support that trash!

Todd

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2002\12\06@194812 by Andrew Warren

flavicon
face
Todd A. Erickson <EraseMErtkcommsspam@spam@zeelink.net> wrote:

> the comment alluded to have been made by the NPR interviewer is
> precisely the leftist thinking one would expect from that network.
> And to think my tax money goes to support that trash!

   Sigh...

   NPR is an independent, private, non-profit organization; it is
   not a government agency.  From NPR's annual report:

       "NPR receives no direct general operating support from any
       national or local government source. NPR does compete along
       with other producers for specific project grants from
       federally funded entities such as the Corporation for Public
       Broadcasting, the National Science Foundation, and the
       National Endowments for the Arts and the Humanities. (Such
       grants typically account for less than 2% of NPR’s revenues
       in any given year....)"

   -Andy

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=== Principal Design Engineer
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=== Opinions expressed above do not
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2002\12\06@200420 by rad0

picon face
splitting hair...they're still the 'left'

to change the subject, somewhat, it's astonishing that today's left
cannot even side with it's opposition to bring down dictators that
torture, amputate and mutilate...it's truly astonishing

this is what the US elections were all about, about the total bancruptcy
of the left, people are waking up to the fact that the left would side with
absolute nihilists to win a vote. and this has disgusted the voter in the US

and it will everywhere else too....

we ought all agree to stop dictators, this is pretty simple



{Original Message removed}

2002\12\06@203826 by Peter Montgomery

flavicon
face
Jim,

> The LARGE problem I see is insufficient GUN TRAINING and the
> inherent RESPECT that it fosters for firearms ... as a sidenote
> I usually listen several Police Departments in the area and
> hear *no* (and ours is a 'Conceal and Carry State!) reports
> of gun battles in the streets!

Fine.  So how come the NRA doesn't lobby in Washington to mandate or
proof of training for all firearms purchases?  All they ever do is say
that we're going to have a police state if we require trigger guards or
a cooling off period.

> Didn't you (or was it the Aussies) just ban them all - with
> SURPRISING (<sarcasm>) good results?

Yes, they did have good results.  Australia had a mass shooting in 1996
that prompted the paid recall
of firearms.  Here is some info I found about crime after 1996 on the
Australian governments own website:

1 - A knife was the most common type of weapon used in attempted murder
(33%), murder (29%) and robbery (23%).

2 - The proportion of robberies where a weapon was used in 2001 (42%) is
similar to the 1993 figure, when this series commenced.

3 - The use of firearms has declined as a proportion of all robberies
(down from 16% to 6%). In 3.5% of cases, a syringe was used.

So yes, they had SUPRISING <no sarcasm> good results.  The number of
guns used in a crime has gone down.  Gee, I guess that is a bad thing,
huh?

   Thanks,
   PeterM

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2002\12\06@204410 by Peter Montgomery

flavicon
face
Todd,

> Nevertheless, the comment alluded to have been made by the NPR
interviewer
> is precisely the leftist thinking one would expect from that network.
And
> to think my tax money goes to support that trash!

Have you researched this at all?  From NPR's website:

-----------------------------
NPR receives no direct general operating support from any national or
local government source.  NPR does compete along with other producers
for specific project grants from federally funded entities such as the
Corporation for Public Broadcasting, the National Science Foundation,
and the National Endowments for the Arts and the Humanities. (Such
grants typically account for less than 2% of NPR's revenues in any given
year.)
-----------------------------

Golly,  a whole 2%!  That comes out to $2.8 million for the year ending
in September 2000.  Yeah, I guess the whole country is going into a
left-wing hellhole with that kind of insane spending.  I mean, it's not
like using it for some important thing like providing bonuses to
political appointees of up to $25,000 per person while trying to
privatize federal jobs in order to give the day-to-day workers  less
money.  I'm so happy my tax money is going to political appointees who
really need the money on top of the high salaries they are already
getting.  Yeah, I sleep soundly at night with thoughts like that.  Damn
the left!  They are out of control!

   Thanks,
   PeterM

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2002\12\06@210547 by Peter Montgomery

flavicon
face
Rad0,

> we ought all agree to stop dictators, this is pretty simple

Which ones?  The ones we prop up with support and aid like Pinochet,
Noriega, and Hussein?  Or the ones we hate like Pinotchet, Noriega, and
Hussein?  That's right - Hussein.  The guy the Right is so hot to topple
is the guy the Right was so hot to help back in 1983:

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=15&ItemID=2177

---------------------
Rumsfeld's December 19-20, 1983 visit to Baghdad made him the
highest-ranking US official to visit Iraq in 6 years. He met Saddam and
the two discussed "topics of mutual interest," according to the Iraqi
Foreign Ministry. "[Saddam] made it clear that Iraq was not interested
in making mischief in the world," Rumsfeld later told The New York
Times. "It struck us as useful to have a relationship, given that we
were interested in solving the Mideast problems."

Just 12 days after the meeting, on January 1, 1984, The Washington Post
reported that the United States "in a shift in policy, has informed
friendly Persian Gulf nations that the defeat of Iraq in the 3-year-old
war with Iran would be 'contrary to U.S. interests' and has made several
moves to prevent that result."
-----------------------

Oh yeah.  It's so simple.  We just make sure we get all the bad
dictators, unless we need them to help us with something, in which case
we help them out.  Of course.  It's so simple.  Let's see, the right
propped this guys up and ignored all the evil stuff he did until someone
decided that we would do better if we controlled the world's largest oil
reserve.  Wow, you're right.  It is simple.

> to change the subject, somewhat, it's astonishing that today's left
> cannot even side with it's opposition to bring down dictators that
> torture, amputate and mutilate...it's truly astonishing

Right, like when we sent Donald Rumsfeld in 1983 to tell Hussein that we
would help them.  My God!  The U.S. government supporting a known
dictator that tortures, mutilates, and amputates!  Damn the Left!
They... oh wait, that was Reagan's administration.  Wasn't he on the
Right?  Or did he become a Democrat and not tell me?


   Thanks,
   PeterM

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2002\12\06@211346 by Andy Kunz

flavicon
face
>So yes, they had SUPRISING <no sarcasm> good results.  The number of
>guns used in a crime has gone down.  Gee, I guess that is a bad thing,
>huh?

If you're in the knife or syringe businesses, yes.  Guess what they'll be
banning next!

Andy

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2002\12\06@220408 by Jinx

face picon face
> If you're in the knife or syringe businesses, yes.  Guess
> what they'll be banning next!
>
> Andy

Nail clippers on planes

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2002\12\07@005150 by llile

flavicon
face
Dale Wrote:


>He-Man.  No bloodshed, lots of superhero-type fighting, always a nice
little moral message from He-Man at the end of each show.  So why was he
becoming such a little terror?  Well, in a more careful analysis, with
each episode you got (minus commercial time) 30 seconds of He-Man giving a
nice moral "be nice" message, and 29.5 minutes of He-Man demonstrating
that no matter what problem or conflict you have, if you hit someone hard
enough anf often enough your prolems would all go away.

Well, I watched every single episode of original Star Trek religiously
when it was first aired, then watched the re-runs until I memorized most
of them and could quote dialogue along with the shows.  The basic plot
was, Enterprise tries to help somebody, gets in bad trouble, Kirk tears
off his shirt and beats someone up and then everything is OK.  Same story
with Johnny Quest, same plot and everything. So far, I haven't turned into
an axe murderer or anything, just a tech-head.   Oh I did kill an ant with
my soldering iron once.


OTOH my kid almost never watches TV.  We don't turn the thing on (except
for  a recorded video every month or two).  Every spare minute she is on
the computer.

-- Lawrence Lile

P.S. Anybody record the new star trek?  We don't get cable and we are
going into withdrawal since we can't get it free over the airwaves
anymore.

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2002\12\07@063929 by Jinx

face picon face
> P.S. Anybody record the new star trek?  We don't get cable
> and we are going into withdrawal since we can't get it free
> over the airwaves anymore

Have you Googled around for downloads ? I follow a series which
is off the air in NZ at the moment but I can d/l new episodes about
a couple of hours after they screen in the US. 33MB for a pretty
good quality 22 minute Real file. I'm only a 56k'er but no problems
using Getright. There are quite a few people around with gigs and
gigs of material on their own servers, I'm sure you'll find a Trekkie

Probably not quite right, but the sort of thing I mean

http://www.trekconnection.com/video/

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2002\12\07@112509 by Jim

flavicon
face
Let's see ...

The Left: Favors more Governemnt/more gov't funded programs.

The Right: Favors Less Governemnt/less gov't funded programs.

The Left: The government MUST make choices which are the BEST
         choices for people and their families.

The Right: The people CAN make the BEST choice for themselves and
          their families.

The Left: Control personal property is too important to be left
         to individuals

The Right: Control of personal property is PARAMOUNT to freedom

The Left: Authority for governance stems from government
         THEREFORE man's rights may be restricted at will.

The Right: Authority for governance stems from God THEREFORE
          man has certain inalienable rights.


RF Jim

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2002\12\07@113838 by Jim

flavicon
face
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Montgomery" <pjmontyspam_OUTspam@spam@CSI.COM>
To: <spamBeGonePICLIST@spam@spamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Friday, December 06, 2002 7:43 PM
Subject: Re: [OT]: Arctic to lose all summer ice by 2100


> Todd,
>
> > Nevertheless, the comment alluded to have been made by the NPR
> > interviewer is precisely the leftist thinking one would expect
> > from that network.
> > And to think my tax money goes to support that trash!
>
> Have you researched this at all?  From NPR's website:

You provided info shows that some of his tax money DOES go to
funding NPR. Thanks.

>
> -----------------------------
> NPR receives no direct general operating support from any national or
> local government source.  NPR does compete along with other producers

Notice weasel words: "no direct general operating support ..."

This leaves it open for 'indirect' sources ...

> for specific project grants from federally funded entities such as the
> Corporation for Public Broadcasting, the National Science Foundation,
> and the National Endowments for the Arts and the Humanities. (Such
> grants typically account for less than 2% of NPR's revenues in any given
> year.)
> -----------------------------
>
> Golly,  a whole 2%!  That comes out to $2.8 million for the year ending

I, for one, am not going to accept this until I see a further 'listing'
of revenues received ...

> in September 2000.  Yeah, I guess the whole country is going into a
> left-wing hellhole with that kind of insane spending.  I mean, it's not

No, we 're moving *away* from a left-wing pothole. This last election
is an indicator of this.

> like using it for some important thing like providing bonuses to
> political appointees of up to $25,000 per person while trying to
> privatize federal jobs in order to give the day-to-day workers  less
> money.  I'm so happy my tax money is going to political appointees who

Accusation/allegation without support.

> really need the money on top of the high salaries they are already
> getting.  Yeah, I sleep soundly at night with thoughts like that.  Damn
> the left!  They are out of control!

Yes, at times they are. They are becoming incresingly more fun to
watch lately as they become desparate (believing their message
did not get out - when in actuallity it did) and begin their slow
slide into obscurity (finally) ...

Between the internet and alternate networks (away from the
entrenched 'oldies) the truth is getting out.

RF Jim

>
>     Thanks,
>     PeterM
>

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2002\12\07@120110 by Jim

flavicon
face
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Montgomery" <spamBeGonepjmontyspam_OUTspamRemoveMECSI.COM>
To: <.....PICLISTspamRemoveMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Friday, December 06, 2002 7:23 PM
Subject: Re: [OT]: Arctic to lose all summer ice by 2100


{Quote hidden}

Additionally, we should license people for the simultaneous tasks
of walking and talking or code-writing and listening to the
radio ...

I think you're blending SEVERAL aspects together here in an
incoherent manner:

- responsible use of firearms in sport hunting,

- 'Conceal and Carry' applications REQUIRE training (at least
in MY state) aleady.

So which case were you reacting to?



> that we're going to have a police state if we require trigger guards or
> a cooling off period.

Thankfully we have certain safegards in our constitution (in the
form of the 2nd Amendment) with WONDERFUL discussion in something
called The Federalist Papers that EXPLAIN the rationale and reasoning
behind endorsing an armed citezenry (under phrase 'the right
to keep and bear arms').

>
> > Didn't you (or was it the Aussies) just ban them all - with
> > SURPRISING (<sarcasm>) good results?
>
> Yes, they did have good results.  Australia had a mass shooting in 1996
> that prompted the paid recall

The Aussies have a mass shooting and ban all guns.

WE have a mass shooting and we pass a 'Conceal and Carry' law
so our citizens aren't sitting ducks the NEXT time (See:
The Lubby's Shooting in Killean Texas).

> of firearms.  Here is some info I found about crime after 1996 on the
> Australian governments own website:

Oh - a lovely and truthful source I'm sure!

>
> 1 - A knife was the most common type of weapon used in attempted murder
> (33%), murder (29%) and robbery (23%).
>
> 2 - The proportion of robberies where a weapon was used in 2001 (42%) is
> similar to the 1993 figure, when this series commenced.
>
> 3 - The use of firearms has declined as a proportion of all robberies
> (down from 16% to 6%). In 3.5% of cases, a syringe was used.

Banning all guns reduced the number from 16% to 6%.

WHEN will this number become zero and WHAT are the chances
a determined mass-shooter will still appear on the scene
at some time in the future (AGAINST a now totally un-armed
and defenseless citizenry)?

>
> So yes, they had SUPRISING <no sarcasm> good results.  The number of

I heard a at one point that ARMED home invasions had shot
up (ONCE gain, against an un-armed citizenty).

Hoo-rah.

RF Jim

> guns used in a crime has gone down.  Gee, I guess that is a bad thing,
> huh?
>
>     Thanks,
>     PeterM
>

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2002\12\07@140853 by rad0

picon face
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Montgomery" <EraseMEpjmontyRemoveMEspamSTOPspamCSI.COM>
To: <RemoveMEPICLISTKILLspamspamTakeThisOuTMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Friday, December 06, 2002 8:04 PM
Subject: Re: [OT]: Arctic to lose all summer ice by 2100


> Rad0,
>
> > we ought all agree to stop dictators, this is pretty simple
>
> Which ones?  The ones we prop up with support and aid like Pinochet,
> Noriega, and Hussein?  Or the ones we hate like Pinotchet, Noriega, and
> Hussein?  That's right - Hussein.  The guy the Right is so hot to topple
> is the guy the Right was so hot to help back in 1983:
>

this is all such a non-argument...

these issues must be analyzed in the 'now' - the present, not the past...

what ever happened in the past, has no bearing on what we ought to do right
now...

(you cannot blame people in the past for acting and not being able to
foretell the future)
and this is what all the suzy-second-guessers are doing.  But at the same
time they
are helping a present day enemy.  And this is astonishing, and sad.


these dictator regimes, ought to be stopped, now!  and anyone who throws the
past
in your face as an excuse to stopping them is really only helping the
dictators, whichever
and where ever they are...

all bets are off now, it's time to re-think and act accordingly

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2002\12\07@203526 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
> what ever happened in the past, has no bearing on what we ought to do
right
> now...

       - Rad0

Those who do not learn from history are condemned to repeat it.

       - George Santayana.

Those who do not learn from history may not be able to repeat it.

       - Stuart Leslie (*)




       RM






* - seeing you asked, Professor, The Johns Hopkins University, Department of
History of Science, Medicine and Technology

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2002\12\07@204806 by rad0

picon face
come on russell,

we dealt with the dictators in the past and it was a mistake,

and now today we don't want to deal with these bastards,
and we are trying to wipe them out, and there is no support
for it from the socialists....

get real...

this is an absurd contradiction from the left..........................

this IS an example of learning from the past, but not to left, who claim
dictators have a right to sovereignty....totally absurd!

fwiw...

{Original Message removed}

2002\12\08@003141 by Dale Botkin

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face
Folks, I'm about a day behind reading my mail, and I'm already at the
point where the plug should be pulled on this thread.  Even the posts I
agree with are way beyond the bounds of any acceptable topics, including
[OT].

Please let this die an immediate and graceful death, BEFORE the
name-calling starts.  Thanks so much.

Dale
---
We are Dyslexia of Borg.
Fusistance is retile.
Your ass will be laminated.

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2002\12\08@013207 by Matt Pobursky

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<listens as Dale fires up the "lamination" machine>

:-D

On Sat, 7 Dec 2002 23:30:02 -0600, Dale Botkin wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2002\12\08@044358 by Roman Black

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face
Mike Singer wrote:
>
> Roman Black wrote:
> > No. Only the top (very thin) layer is affected
> > significantly by climate temperature rise. The hot
> > water stays at the top for some reason and the bulk,
> > probably 99.9% of the volume will not be affected.
>
> Hi, Roman.
>    Ocean water is constantly moving in all directions
> at all levels of depth "for some reason". Besides, how
> do you think what is the temperature of the underlying
> beds few kilometers under oceans?


You must get a very different version of discovery
channel to the one I get. ;o)
There is (apparently) very little mixing between the
warm top ocean layer and the cooler deep layers and
I doubt the deeper layers would be affected by air
temp much at all.
-Roman

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2002\12\08@045853 by Jinx

face picon face
> You must get a very different version of discovery
> channel to the one I get. ;o)
> There is (apparently) very little mixing between the
> warm top ocean layer and the cooler deep layers and
> I doubt the deeper layers would be affected by air
> temp much at all.
> -Roman

I'm no oceanographer but.........

It's a bit like the way tectonic plates slide over and under. As
water evaporates from the ocean, that makes it more dense
and it sinks. This causes lighter, less salty water from the poles
to move into that space. The result is an undersea river of dense,
cold (around freezing) water, part of which is the Gulf Stream,
that takes around 400 years to do a full world trip. Because of
the circulating nature of this river, dense water doesn't just sink
at the place where it became saltier- it dives to the bottom at
specific places in bulk. The ocean river and the surface water
don't mix on a global basis

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2002\12\08@051338 by Roman Black

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face
Jinx wrote:
>
> > Kids are kids and soldiers are soldiers. Even without
> > plastic toy props kids are going to play war games etc.
> > The games kids make in their heads (which IS a healthy
> > part of mental development) are just as violent as
> > anything you will see on TV.
>
> "aggression" doesn't seem quite the right word. Drive,
> confidence, assertion or ambition work better for me.


Yes but isn't that the problem? People have become so
brainwashed that even a word takes on sinister meaning.

Aggression is NOT negative. TOO MUCH aggression is
negative. As would be TOO MUCH timidity. Parents need
to teach children BALANCE, that whole yin/yang thing.
The problem is when the imbalance occurs. It's ok for
little girls to shoot each other with plastic assault
rifles sometimes, and it's ok for little boys to brush
Barbie's hair sometimes... Deny these things and
you mess their heads up. ;o)

The big problem occurs when closed minded (and hence
badly educated) people rule out an entire aspect of
normal healthy behaviour, and then try to force the
rest of the world to comply starting with their own
(unfortunate) children. :o(
-Roman

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2002\12\08@051958 by Roman Black

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face
Jinx wrote:

> It was the Aussies who banned assault rifles - I've no idea what
> that's done to crime figures.


They are up, and handgun crime has gone up
substantially. Some areas of Sydney now are real
no-go zones. :o(

Getting rid of the guns caused a "prohibition"
like situation, where the asian gangs were only
importing heroin, now guns are expensive enough
to be WORTH importing. So the same scum offering
heroin to their customers are now offering black
market guns. The result is well armed heroin addicts
and dealers, the very worst possible result of
banning the guns.

But I do know some farmers struggling through red
tape to keep their .22 licensed.
-Roman

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2002\12\08@054526 by Jinx

face picon face
> But I do know some farmers struggling through red
> tape to keep their .22 licensed.
> -Roman

Courst case coming up here soon of a farmer who shot
and killed (accidentally by ricochet) one of three intruder

The rural community is spitting tacks about the prosecution.
If the cops can't help prevent or catch thieves (in this case
it was a working stiff's 4WD farmbike, which are hot deals
on the black market) then they reckon it's up to them. As a
night owl I'm out quite often very late/early to get a breath of
fresh air, and after a spate of youth crime it's always in the
back of your head to be prepared for anything, and I can't
remember the last time I saw a cop car around here. Do unto
others before they do unto you if necessary. As if to highlight
that, yesterday about 1:30am I'm stopped at traffic lights on
my bike and the driver of a van behind me gets out and
rushes towards me. Scared the crap out of me for an instant
but I was ready - I've got the boots, I'm a brown belt. Bring it
on sonny. But then he says "Dude, into metal ?" and shoves
a flyer for a Metalfest into my hand, the lights change and off
we go our separate ways into the night. Anyway, keeps one
on one's "mettle" eh ? As in Sydney, one or two places I don't
feel safe though. Too many punks loitering at all hours

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2002\12\08@064701 by Jinx

face picon face
> > "aggression" doesn't seem quite the right word. Drive,
> > confidence, assertion or ambition work better for me.
>
> Yes but isn't that the problem? People have become so
> brainwashed that even a word takes on sinister meaning.
>
> Aggression is NOT negative

We'll have to agree to disagree on that one. I can't find a
dictionary definition that isn't negative, and it's not a word
I'd use for anything other than hostility. I do know what you
mean though

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2002\12\08@075255 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
> Courst case coming up here soon of a farmer who shot
> and killed (accidentally by ricochet) one of three intruder

As with most things, it's more complex than it may seem.
I don't think the man died.
The richochet and accident aspect is questionable (and is therefore being
questioned by normal judicial procedure).
The intruders were unquestionably hoping to relieve the man of his property.
They had already been persuaded to desist by his firing two? shots into the
air and they had left the bike where it was and hopped in their vehicle and
were leaving the scene when he fired "in their general direction" from
behind them "as a wraning" (AFAIR) and managed to injure one who he hit in
the back. (Here even shooting by police is rare. The most recent has been
news for 1+ years so far - the deranged and undoubtedgly dangerous victim
had been smashing shop windows and had a golf club - he was shot 4 times -
the last and fatal shot hitting him in the back.

If Jinx's farmer had shot one of the intruders at close quarters from front
on in that situation our law would have provided a fairly iron-cast defence.
You are permitted to kill someone here (or to try to or to risk doing so) if
you genuinely believe that your life is in danger and the procedure that you
use is consistent with resisting the perceived danger. Some people have got
off some quite questionable acts on the basis of their sincere beliefs.

So far the law here does not allow private citizens to kill or risk killing
people who were endangering your property but no longer are and are leaving
the scene empty handed after you (or anyone else) has persuaded them that
they have better things to do with their time. Some members of the community
feel that delivering a fatal lesson to people of immediately-prior felonious
intent is more important than ensuring that life opportunities are maximised
for all members of the community. I undersatnd their point  of view well
enough that I could write a paper in defence of it - probably better than
many who hold it would. But I think we all lose ultimately if we do not hold
the very large majority, if not quite all, of human life to be valuable
enough that loss of even substantial property ranks a very poor second to
the preservation of even one lowlife scumbag's life.

Soon enough we will end up where eg the US is now - where mass possession of
guns for defence and offense by private citizens is something which can be
defensibly (if not always sensibly) debated. Jinx's midnight rocker, had he
sinister intent, would have simply shot him as he drove past, while Jinx,
had he survived the initial assault, would have lain on the road and
returned fire with his 45 Magnum special. Gyrojets being hard to get
ammunition for these days.

Here in God's own country [ :-) ] we have not, yet, got to that stage. Even
our Police are notionally "normally" unarmed although that is becoming a
very transparently false notion. The concept of anyone carrying a firearm
for defense or offense in public or private hardly enters the sensible
consciousness of the majority of the population.

And, despite the severe and growing risks from the annual southern ozone
hole, which of course have nothing to do with non-existant global warming
(see, this is on the original topic :-) ), a majority of us still spend a
large part of summer with bare arms.




           Russell McMahon


=========================================

In similar vein:

From: "Russell McMahon" <ruslspamspamparadise.net.nz>
To: "Friends" <spam_OUTapptechspam_OUTspamspam_OUTparadise.net.nz>
Sent: Saturday, November 30, 2002 6:54 AM
Subject: Fw: [ERPS] Second Amendment Punnishment

We live near Pennsylvania and here a bare Amish would be arrested!

> > > > Hey, that's why I usually wear T-shirts: exercising my Second
> > > > Amendment right to bare arms.  ^_-

> > > Give an ursid a rifle - exercise your right to arm bears.  :-)

> > Support the right to Bayer alms -- give a homeless person an aspirin
> > tablet.

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2002\12\08@080744 by Mike Singer

picon face
part 1 1701 bytes content-type:text/plain; (decoded 7bit)

Jinx wrote:
{Quote hidden}

  Jinx, I cant catch the logic of your post:

Firstly you wrote:   "The result is an undersea river of dense,
cold (around freezing) water, part of which is the Gulf Stream..."

Then you wrote:     "The ocean river and the surface water
> don't mix on a global basis"

If Gulf Stream is allowed to be a part of "an undersea river of
dense, cold (around freezing) water", and is known to be a
a warm river flowing over and through the Atlantic Ocean at
the same time, then why not conclude  " The ocean river and
the surface water do mix on a global basis"?

  Mike.




part 2 3201 bytes content-type:image/jpeg; (decode)


part 3 154 bytes
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2002\12\08@083345 by Andy Kunz

flavicon
face
>We'll have to agree to disagree on that one. I can't find a
>dictionary definition that isn't negative, and it's not a word
>I'd use for anything other than hostility. I do know what you

Think about your physical relationship with your wife.  Who is more
aggressive?  Is it a bad thing?  Is that not how we were created?

Agression refers to one going first.  Attack is the negative word, but in
business it's a positive thing to attack a market niche early.

You guys are getting all bent out of shape on something that's stupid.
Guns are for our protection from the bad guys, whether they were punk
clothes, a uniform, or a badge.

Andy

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2002\12\08@111701 by Mike Singer

picon face
Jinx wrote:
{Quote hidden}

From
G o o g l e's cache of
www.ldeo.columbia.edu/dees/ees/climate/lectures/o_circ.html
---------------------------------------
  Ocean overturning, product of buoyancy exchange with the
atmosphere, form specific water masses which spread at depth
throughout the ocean. The thermohaline circulation engages
the full volume of the ocean into the climate system, by allowing
all of the ocean water to 'meet' and interact directly the atmosphere,
that is to exchange heat and freshwater with the atmosphere.
.
.
  The ocean circulation includes flow in the horizontal, such as
flow along the sea surface, and flow in the vertical that overturns
the ocean, engaging the cold deep interior in the climate system,
by coupling it to the atmosphere. The ocean circulation, both
horizontal and vertical is induced by the wind acting on the sea
surface and by buoyancy fluxes between the ocean and
atmosphere. The buoyancy forces are capable of inducing
overturning that reach from the sea surface to the sea floor.
-------------------------------------------

Text by Dr Arnold Gordon, 2000.
(He is known as great physical oceanographer)

-------------------------------------------

  Mike.

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2002\12\08@115518 by Jim

flavicon
face
Can we compare the respective rates at which this occurs
(the vertical versus the horizontal) in effect termed
"Ocean overturning"? (We have a similar term when local
lakes are said to 'turn' or turn over'.)

http://www.baillod.com/messages/345.html

I would put the rate at *much* better than 10:1 (horz movement
to vert movement ) - then there is the consideration for
what is the effective rate for deeper ocean depths and
different areas of the oceans where wind is mild/perhaps
absent (since he mentions this effect: "... [flow] is
induced by the wind acting on the sea surface ...").

RF Jim

{Original Message removed}

2002\12\08@134921 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
On Sat, 7 Dec 2002, rad0 wrote:
*>this IS an example of learning from the past, but not to left, who claim
*>dictators have a right to sovereignty....totally absurd!

Come on, you must be fair and see their point too. Since they rely on
control and dictatorships they must draw a line between dictators they put
down to get in power and other dictators, like themselves. Sort of
conservation instinct.

Peter

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2002\12\08@160254 by Jinx

face picon face
> Ocean overturning, product of buoyancy exchange with the
> atmosphere, form specific water masses which spread at depth
> throughout the ocean. The thermohaline circulation engages
> the full volume of the ocean into the climate system, by allowing
> all of the ocean water to 'meet' and interact directly the atmosphere,
> that is to exchange heat and freshwater with the atmosphere.

I said

>The ocean river and the surface water don't mix on a global basis

Dr Gordon made a better job of it by taking a paragraph to do it.
The thermohaline circulation involves two or more distinct types
of water that do not mix generally. The use of inversion layers in
submarine operations for example The oceans do turn over, but at
specific points, and not intimately all over the world (ie don't mix on
a global basis - poorly put, my bad). Eventually any molecule of ocean
water will get to the surface or the lowest depths by thermohaline
circulation. It may take a very very long time if it happens to fall as
rain or snow into the middle of Antarctica or as an Indian monsoon,
but sooner or later.....

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2002\12\08@160506 by Jinx

face picon face
> > cold (around freezing) water, part of which is the Gulf Stream,

Sorry, complete boner. The Gulf Stream is not cold water. It's
that part of the circulation that has warmed up going through
the tropics, heading back towards the North Atlantic

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2002\12\08@162555 by Jinx

face picon face
> > Courst case coming up here soon of a farmer who shot
> > and killed (accidentally by ricochet) one of three intruder
>
> I don't think the man died

You're right, he didn't. So many have lately I thought he had too

www.nzherald.co.nz/storydisplay.cfm?thesection=news&thesubsection=&st
oryID=3000562

==========================================

A story I hear from time to time when people complain about
police response (or lack of) to burglaries is something like

"Hello police, there are two guys trying to burgle me"

"I'm sorry, we've no one available"

Wait a couple of minutes. Ring back

"Hello police, no hurry about those two guys breaking in. I've
just shot them"

One minute later, police everywhere, looking in vain for bodies

"Hey, you said you shot two guys"

"And YOU said no one was available"

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2002\12\08@162603 by Benjamin Bromilow

flavicon
face
The Labrador stream is the cold one going south, the Gulf stream is the hot
one going the other way AFAIR....

{Original Message removed}

2002\12\08@162804 by Jinx

face picon face
> The Labrador stream is the cold one going south, the Gulf stream
> is the hot one going the other way AFAIR....

Where they pass, isn't that the good fishing grounds ?

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2002\12\10@185702 by Peter Montgomery

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face
Jinx,

> > If you're in the knife or syringe businesses, yes.  Guess
> > what they'll be banning next!
> >
> > Andy
>
> Nail clippers on planes

That's right - John Ashcroft, George Bush, and the rest of the current
right-wing administration - have upheld gun rights while preventing you
from carrying nail clippers on a plane.  Yeah, makes a lot of sense...

   Thanks,
   PeterM

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2002\12\10@191007 by Peter Montgomery

flavicon
face
Jim,

> Let's see ...
>
> The Left: Favors more Governemnt/more gov't funded programs.
>
> The Right: Favors Less Governemnt/less gov't funded programs.

The Left: Favors government funding of programs to help individuals.

The Right:  Favors government funding of farms and corporations at the
expense of individuals.

> The Left: The government MUST make choices which are the BEST
>           choices for people and their families.

Since when?  When did the Left say that government MUST makes choices?
The Right doesn't make choices for the public?  Didn't the Right decide
to give the majority of the tax refund back to the welalthiest 1% of the
US population?  I don't recall being given a CHOICE on that one.
Didn't the Right decide to formulate an energy policy by exluding
everyone but the oil and power companies who stand to make the most
money from it?  No one left that choice for me.  Of course, as someone
else pointed out, you aren't allowed to carry nail clipers on planes
anymore.  I guess the Right decided that I MUST not have nail clippers
on the plane.

> The Right: The people CAN make the BEST choice for themselves and
>            their families.
>
> The Left: Control personal property is too important to be left
>           to individuals
>
> The Right: Control of personal property is PARAMOUNT to freedom

I have never had the US government prevent me from owning property.  I
own property.  If I had more money I would own more.  How hard is that?
It's legal in this country unless you know something the rest of us
don't.

> The Left: Authority for governance stems from government
>           THEREFORE man's rights may be restricted at will.
>
> The Right: Authority for governance stems from God THEREFORE
>            man has certain inalienable rights.

Gee, weren't the 9-11 highjackers crashing planes into buildings in the
name of "God"?  Which God are we talking about?  The one who apparently
condones 9-11 when the act is done is his name?  I didn't see the hand
of God stop the planes from hitting the buildings, so I can only assume
he condoned it.  If  God was against it, surely he would have stopped it
from happening.  As the all powerul being, he must have known it was
going to happen.  If the Right gets their authority from God, then I am
truly frightened.

   Thanks,.
   PeterM

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2002\12\10@192450 by Peter Montgomery

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face
Jim,

> > > Nevertheless, the comment alluded to have been made by the NPR
> > > interviewer is precisely the leftist thinking one would expect
> > > from that network.
> > > And to think my tax money goes to support that trash!
> >
> > Have you researched this at all?  From NPR's website:
>
> You provided info shows that some of his tax money DOES go to
> funding NPR. Thanks.

You're welcome.  It's called being honest.

> > -----------------------------
> > NPR receives no direct general operating support from any national
or
> > local government source.  NPR does compete along with other
producers
>
> Notice weasel words: "no direct general operating support ..."

It's called applying for a grant.  You could do it to.  There's nothing
to prevent the Right from getting money, and I'm sure they do.  It's
called America - get used to it.

> This leaves it open for 'indirect' sources ...
>
> > for specific project grants from federally funded entities such as
the
> > Corporation for Public Broadcasting, the National Science
Foundation,
> > and the National Endowments for the Arts and the Humanities. (Such
> > grants typically account for less than 2% of NPR's revenues in any
given
> > year.)
> > -----------------------------
> >
> > Golly,  a whole 2%!  That comes out to $2.8 million for the year
ending
>
> I, for one, am not going to accept this until I see a further
'listing'
> of revenues received ...

Go the website and find out for yourself.  Contact NPR if you're so
incensed.

> > in September 2000.  Yeah, I guess the whole country is going into a
> > left-wing hellhole with that kind of insane spending.  I mean, it's
not
>
> No, we 're moving *away* from a left-wing pothole. This last election
> is an indicator of this.

Yeah, I guess having unemployment at 6% is a good thing.  I guess that a
$159 billion deficit after years of surpluses is a good thing.  I guess
that a trade deficit in Spetember of $38.03 billion (the second highest
on record) is a good thing.  Yeah, the previous administration's record
of low unemployment, budget surpluses, and a lowered trade deficit are
all bad.  Gosh, I guess I got it all backwards.

> > like using it for some important thing like providing bonuses to
> > political appointees of up to $25,000 per person while trying to
> > privatize federal jobs in order to give the day-to-day workers  less
> > money.  I'm so happy my tax money is going to political appointees
who
>
> Accusation/allegation without support.

Do you even read the news?  Do you think I made this up out of thin air?

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/12/05/politics/05BONU.html

Here's the opening paragraph:

The White House today defended its decision to authorize cash bonuses
for political appointees, as Democrats in Congress condemned the policy
shift as "a slap in the face" to hundreds of thousands of career civil
servants.

The White House hasn't denied anything and in fact DEFENDED it.  What
accusation /allegation are you talking about?  Or did Rush Limbaugh not
mention this little story on his show?

   Thanks,
   PeterM

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2002\12\10@194018 by Peter Montgomery

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Jim,

> > Fine.  So how come the NRA doesn't lobby in Washington to mandate or
> > proof of training for all firearms purchases?  All they ever do is
say
{Quote hidden}

What was the hard part to understand?  It's one sentence with one
thought.  I'm saying that ALL gun purchases should require training or
proof of training and that the NRA won't even lobby for that - what's so
hard to understand?  I never mentioned sport versus concealed weapons.
Read it again.  Did the word "all" confuse you?  The only thing
confusing about it is that I accidentally typed the word "or" in betwwen
the word "mandate" and "proof".

> So which case were you reacting to?

See above.

> > that we're going to have a police state if we require trigger guards
or
> > a cooling off period.
>
> Thankfully we have certain safegards in our constitution (in the
> form of the 2nd Amendment) with WONDERFUL discussion in something
> called The Federalist Papers that EXPLAIN the rationale and reasoning
> behind endorsing an armed citezenry (under phrase 'the right
> to keep and bear arms').

And a cooling off period prevents that how?  And a trigger guard
prevents that how?  Where in the 2nd amendment does it say, "and no
trigger guards or cooling off periods shall be allowed" ?  I guess
that's missing from my copy of the Constitution.

> > > Didn't you (or was it the Aussies) just ban them all - with
> > > SURPRISING (<sarcasm>) good results?
> >
> > Yes, they did have good results.  Australia had a mass shooting in
1996
> > that prompted the paid recall
>
> The Aussies have a mass shooting and ban all guns.

And it works accordng to the data.  Just because the facts don't support
your position doesn't mean the facts should be ignored.

>
> WE have a mass shooting and we pass a 'Conceal and Carry' law
> so our citizens aren't sitting ducks the NEXT time (See:
> The Lubby's Shooting in Killean Texas).
>
> > of firearms.  Here is some info I found about crime after 1996 on
the
> > Australian governments own website:
>
> Oh - a lovely and truthful source I'm sure!

The Australian governement is putting phony facts on their sites?
Accusation/allegation without support (to quote yourself).

> > 1 - A knife was the most common type of weapon used in attempted
murder
> > (33%), murder (29%) and robbery (23%).
> >
> > 2 - The proportion of robberies where a weapon was used in 2001
(42%) is
> > similar to the 1993 figure, when this series commenced.
> >
> > 3 - The use of firearms has declined as a proportion of all
robberies
> > (down from 16% to 6%). In 3.5% of cases, a syringe was used.
>
> Banning all guns reduced the number from 16% to 6%.
>
> WHEN will this number become zero and WHAT are the chances
> a determined mass-shooter will still appear on the scene
> at some time in the future (AGAINST a now totally un-armed
> and defenseless citizenry)?

So the fact that banning guns has reduced their use in crimes 10% isn't
good enough?  Who says it's not going to continues lower?  Now it has to
reduce it to zero?  Show me any policy about anything that works 100%.

You mention a determined mass shooter.  You think that the determined
mass-shooter is going to be put off by more guns?  Do you recall the
bank robbers in N. Hollywood who wore bulletproof armor and shot the
crap out of everything in site?  The cops unloaded everything they had
and it didn't stop them.  More gun won't stop the determined person from
doing what they are determined to do.  We have guns up the wazzoo in
America and that hasn't changed a single mass shooting.

> > So yes, they had SUPRISING <no sarcasm> good results.  The number of
>
> I heard a at one point that ARMED home invasions had shot
> up (ONCE gain, against an un-armed citizenty).

Accusation/allegation without support.

   Thanks,
   PeterM

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2002\12\10@200619 by Peter Montgomery

flavicon
face
rad0,

> > Which ones?  The ones we prop up with support and aid like Pinochet,
> > Noriega, and Hussein?  Or the ones we hate like Pinotchet, Noriega,
and
> > Hussein?  That's right - Hussein.  The guy the Right is so hot to
topple
> > is the guy the Right was so hot to help back in 1983:
> >
>
> this is all such a non-argument...
>
> these issues must be analyzed in the 'now' - the present, not the
past...
>
> what ever happened in the past, has no bearing on what we ought to do
right
> now...

It's a non-argument becuase it's embarassing to think that we are ONCE
AGAIN preparing to fight someone we armed in the past.  This isn't the
first time this has happened.

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" - George
Santayana.

Fine, lets analyze it based on today.

http://www.warblogging.com/archives/000258.php

Here are a couple of salient points from the article:

----------------------------
A previously classified intelligence assessment conducted by the CIA
suggests that Saddam Hussein wouldn't use WMD unless provoked, the Times
reports today. The assessment also says that Iraqi support of al-Qaeda
is unlikely

The report does suggest that if cornered -- if Saddam feels he'll be
attacked immediately -- he may well use WMD.
---------------------------

So, analyzing this in the "now" tells us that we are provoking a madman
to use weapons he wouldn't use otherwise.  Sounds like a bad plan to me.

> (you cannot blame people in the past for acting and not being able to
> foretell the future)
> and this is what all the suzy-second-guessers are doing.  But at the
same
> time they
> are helping a present day enemy.  And this is astonishing, and sad.

You honestly think that no one knew Hussein was a madman back in 1983?
Go check your facts.  The US had already suspended diplomatic relations
with Iraq because they thought he was a dangerous dictator.  However,
they decided that the short term gain (helping to remove Russia from
Iraq) was better than the long term problems (arming a madman with
things like Stinger missiles and training he would use against us) we
would face.  Reagan and Rumsfeld, etc knew that Hussein was a nut and
dangerous becuase they had cut off dilomatic ties to him and Iraq.


> these dictator regimes, ought to be stopped, now!  and anyone who
throws the
> past
> in your face as an excuse to stopping them is really only helping the
> dictators, whichever
> and where ever they are...
>
> all bets are off now, it's time to re-think and act accordingly

Fine.  So when do we invade North Korea?  They HAVE a nuclear arms
program, and we just stopped a ship that continaed nuclear missle parts
they were shipping today.  Show me the proof that Hussein has nuclear
weapons.  I can prove to you that Korea has because they have publicly
admitted it.  North Korea is under control of a communist dictator.
Bush has already said they are part of the "Axis of Evil".  Why aren't
we arming for a fight with them as well?  If everything is so black and
white, why does the administration let a known communist country have a
nuclear arms program which they could use against us at any time?

   Thanks,
   PeterM

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2002\12\10@201634 by Josh Koffman

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Ok, Dale already killed this thread. It is definitely out of the scope
of the list, and isn't contributing anything positive. This has gone
beyond friendly debate. If you wish to continue, take it to private
emails.

SECOND WARNING

Josh Koffman
PICList Admin #5

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2002\12\10@212803 by rad0

picon face
> > (you cannot blame people in the past for acting and not being able to
> > foretell the future)
> > and this is what all the suzy-second-guessers are doing.  But at the
> same
> > time they
> > are helping a present day enemy.  And this is astonishing, and sad.
>
> You honestly think that no one knew Hussein was a madman back in 1983?
> Go check your facts.  The US had already suspended diplomatic relations
> with Iraq because they thought he was a dangerous dictator.  However,
> they decided that the short term gain (helping to remove Russia from
> Iraq) was better than the long term problems (arming a madman with
> things like Stinger missiles and training he would use against us) we
> would face.  Reagan and Rumsfeld, etc knew that Hussein was a nut and
> dangerous becuase they had cut off dilomatic ties to him and Iraq.
>

So.......what, we shouldn't stop him now??

You're being irrational in a very simple minded way....

{Quote hidden}

their days are numbered, and if they raise the threat, they'll be moved up
on the target list....

this is about protecting america and the civilized western world, it's
called self defense, I
know you think this 'just happens' but in reality, it takes force and
domination of bad people,
and that's what's going on right now, there are some very bad people out
there, and they need
to be stopped, and thank goodness, the US is doing something

these bad people, now need to stopped and punished, they have murdered 3000
people and
destroyed a huge amount of property, and disrupted the entire world....

if you're arguing to just let them go, I disagree.

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2002\12\10@230646 by Dale Botkin

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I gotta assume he was way behind reading his list email...  which is why I
usually check out the last few messages in a thread before replying when
I've been gone a while.

Dale
---
We are Dyslexia of Borg.
Fusistance is retile.
Your ass will be laminated.

On Tue, 10 Dec 2002, Josh Koffman wrote:

> Ok, Dale already killed this thread. It is definitely out of the scope
> of the list, and isn't contributing anything positive. This has gone
> beyond friendly debate. If you wish to continue, take it to private
> emails.

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