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'[OT]: And your mother smells of elderberries'
2003\10\25@083049 by Jinx

face picon face
(should be a poodle by rights)

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/10/25/1066974357257.html


===================    PS     =======================

THE French government, in a bid to turn back the tide of
English words in the field of technology, has banned its civil
service from using the term "email" instead of its approved
French equivalent, the culture minister announced.

All government ministries, websites, publications and
documents must now use "courriel" - a shortening of "courrier
electronique" (literally: electronic mail) - when they are referring
to the messages sent via the internet, the ministry said in a
statement.

The move, made law by its publication in the official government
gazette on June 20, will put the French administration out of step
with the majority of the French public, who still prefer to use
"email" to communicate between computer accounts.

Agence France-Presse

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2003\10\25@110431 by DAVE L

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I remember once spending a number of minutes trying to translate from
english a description only to find out in the old ussr this particular vehicle
is known as a "pickup truck"
D
you could ban the use of cul de sac?


At 01:30 AM 10/26/03 +1300, you wrote:

{Quote hidden}

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2003\10\25@152756 by Howard Winter

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On Sat, 25 Oct 2003 11:08:41 -0400, DAVE L wrote:

> I remember once spending a number of minutes trying to translate from
> english a description only to find out in the old ussr this particular vehicle
> is known as a "pickup truck"
> D
> you could ban the use of cul de sac?

Not to mention Restaurant, Cafe, Entrepreneur, and so on.  Of course, the English language is rather like the
rules of using a protocol - we try to speak it accurately but we understand people who don't!  :-)

Cheers,

Howard Winter
St.Albans, England

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2003\10\25@165706 by Jim Tellier

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Howard Winter wrote:
> Not to mention Restaurant, Cafe, Entrepreneur, and so on.  Of course, the
> English language is rather like the
> rules of using a protocol - we try to speak it accurately but we
> understand people who don't!  :-)
>
Consider:
The pweor of the hmuan mnid


Accodrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht
oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht the frist
and lsat ltteer be at the rghit pclae.     The rset can be a total mses and
you can sitll raed it wouthit porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos
not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe.

Amzanig huh? :^)


Jim

> Cheers,
>
> Howard Winter
> St.Albans, England
>
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2003\10\25@171201 by Stef Mientki

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I'ld love to see computers and compilers to be able to read this kind of
 spelling ;-)
Stef Mientki

Jim Tellier wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2003\10\25@175141 by Jim Tellier

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Stef Mientki wrote:

> I'ld love to see computers and compilers to be able to read this kind of
>   spelling ;-)

HA HA!!!!  Guess what!  They can... long time back, when I was writing
simulation tools & parsers & stuff at DEC, we did an error-correcting parser
that would "take it's best guess" at poorly-formed syntax.  Mostly covered
simple stuff like mispelled identifiers (e.g. it would have seen "mouss" in
the input, then substituted "mouse" from the table of known valid
identifiers), and filling in "missing semicolon" errors, then re-trying the
parse to see if the outcome was any better.   For the most part, it worked
pretty well... the hard part was finding a really good way to tell the user
that he messed up but give the choice to accept/decline each one of the
"fixes" that the parser provided.  Lots o' fun for the grammatically
inclined!
Jim


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2003\10\25@201950 by M. Adam Davis

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It is so interesting that the French are so protective of their language
that they have a ministry of language.  I can't fault them for wanting
to have a 'pure' language (as pure as a language can be that descends
from other languages).

Just a different culture, I guess.  But then, I live on Rue Willette
Blvd.  How many ways can you say 'road' or 'street' in 'english'?

-Adam

Jinx wrote:

{Quote hidden}

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2003\10\25@210214 by Russell McMahon

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> It is so interesting that the French are so protective of their language
> that they have a ministry of language.  I can't fault them for wanting
> to have a 'pure' language (as pure as a language can be that descends
> from other languages).

It's a reaction to the fact that English is the Lingua Franca of the world
:-)
Gives one a sense of Deja Vu. Wonder what sense the French get when they
have that feeling :-)?



       RM

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2003\10\25@210838 by Gaston Gagnon

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Russell McMahon wrote:

>>It is so interesting that the French are so protective of their language
>>that they have a ministry of language.  I can't fault them for wanting
>>to have a 'pure' language (as pure as a language can be that descends
>>from other languages).
>
>
> It's a reaction to the fact that English is the Lingua Franca of the world
> :-)
> Gives one a sense of Deja Vu. Wonder what sense the French get when they
> have that feeling :-)?

Déjà vue :)
Gaston

>
>
>
>         RM
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2003\10\26@010154 by Jinx

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>> the French are so protective of their language

What's thoroughly silly is that the word "mail" is a Modern
French derivative of an Old High German word. It's actually
the English who should be giving it the biff if anyone's going
to be precious ;-)

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2003\10\26@080614 by Howard Winter

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On Sat, 25 Oct 2003 20:19:35 -0400, M. Adam Davis wrote:

>...< It is so interesting that the French are so protective of their language
> that they have a ministry of language.  I can't fault them for wanting
> to have a 'pure' language (as pure as a language can be that descends
> from other languages).

That's the daft part of it - Indo-European languages are all related and all have bits they've borrowed from
each other, and from Latin and Greek.  It's ridiculous to try to "purify" any of them!

> Just a different culture, I guess.  But then, I live on Rue Willette
> Blvd.  How many ways can you say 'road' or 'street' in 'english'?

Well I have to use two of them just to give the name of my road: "Park Street Lane".  (If any burglars or
weirdos are reading this, I'm only joking, I live in the High Street!  :-)  We don't tend to use "Boulevard"
or "Parkway" in England, but off the top of my head I can think of these:  Road, Street, Lane, Avenue,
Crescent, Close, Way, Drive, Gardens, Hill, Wood, Circus, Park (Hmmm... so I have to use *three* of them to
give the name of my road! :-)

Cheers,

Howard Winter

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2003\10\27@064545 by Alan B. Pearce

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>I remember once spending a number of minutes trying to
>translate from english a description only to find out
?in the old ussr this particular vehicle is known as
>a "pickup truck"

ha ha. While travelling across Russia by train, my wife and I had a certain
amount of fun working out the meanings of various words as written in the
"roman alphabet" Cryllic. One of these was "pectopan" or something similar,
which we had quickly worked out was a restaurant. When we asked a Russian
how to say the word he said "restaurant" and when we eventually got out the
guide book we had and did a letter by letter translation, that is exactly
what it did spell.

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2003\10\27@065416 by Alan B. Pearce

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>>It is so interesting that the French are so protective of their language
>>that they have a ministry of language.  I can't fault them for wanting
>>to have a 'pure' language (as pure as a language can be that descends
>>from other languages).
>
>
> It's a reaction to the fact that English is the Lingua Franca of the world
> :-)
> Gives one a sense of Deja Vu. Wonder what sense the French get when they
> have that feeling :-)?

I seem to recall that a certain German dictator went through a similar loop
with words like "telephone" and "television", instead insisting on rather
unwieldy German long words being used.

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2003\10\27@123802 by David Minkler

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Jim,

This is truly amazing!  I raed it almost as fsat as thguoh evrey wrod
was spleled (ordered) correlcty.

Best regards,

Dave

Jim Tellier wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2003\10\27@132520 by David VanHorn

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At 09:42 AM 10/27/2003 -0800, David Minkler wrote:

>Jim,
>
>This is truly amazing!  I raed it almost as fsat as thguoh evrey wrod
>was spleled (ordered) correlcty.

I wonder if there's a translator available?

It does have interesting possibilities for encryption.
If none of the words are spelled right, how do you manage an automated dictionary attacks.

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2003\10\27@144624 by John Ferrell

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Interesting! I put it through the Microsoft Word spell check and here is the
result:
"According to a rscheearch at Cambridge Uinervtisy, it doesn't matter in
what
order the letters in a word are, the only iprmoetnt thing is that the first
and slat letter be at the right pclae. The rest can be a total mess and
you can still read it wouthit problem. This is bcuseae the human mind does
not read reify letter by itself, but the word as a whole.

Amazing huh? :^)"



John Ferrell
6241 Phillippi Rd
Julian NC 27283
Phone: (336)685-9606
EraseMEjohnferrellspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTearthlink.net
Dixie Competition Products
NSRCA 479 AMA 4190  W8CCW
"My Competition is Not My Enemy"


{Original Message removed}

2003\10\28@044837 by Alan B. Pearce

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>>This is truly amazing!  I raed it almost as fsat as thguoh
>>evrey wrod was spleled (ordered) correlcty.
>
>I wonder if there's a translator available?
>
>It does have interesting possibilities for encryption.
>If none of the words are spelled right, how do you manage
>an automated dictionary attacks.

I had pondered that too when this was originally posted. It could really
screw up dictionary attacks no end, especially if you could set things up so
that the dictionary got itself a character or two out of step with the
proper message.

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2003\10\29@160814 by Peter L. Peres

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> I wonder if there's a translator available?

If you run the above through a spell checker it will fix most errors.

> It does have interesting possibilities for encryption.
> If none of the words are spelled right, how do you manage an automated
> dictionary attacks.

I don't think so. It's dsylxeia at work and anagrams do not pass for
encryption. It is possible to have a spell checker mop it up
automatically.

Peter

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2003\10\29@171253 by Jinx

face picon face
> > It does have interesting possibilities for encryption.
> > If none of the words are spelled right, how do you manage
> > an automated dictionary attacks.
>
> I don't think so. It's dsylxeia at work and anagrams do not pass for
> encryption. It is possible to have a spell checker mop it up
> automatically.

One spam I get from time to time uses subject lines like this
actual example

`^You ca.nt jus*tify the situation do;wn below"

I'm not sure what they expect to achieve by this. OE can very
easily scan the body content for the predictable keyword(s) and
delete the mail

And have you noticed that quite a few web site registrations
(eg http://www.drivers.com  and others) require a human to enter
a word in distorted graphic form, as explained here

http://www.captcha.net/

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2003\10\29@174522 by Russell McMahon

face
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> > I wonder if there's a translator available?
>
> If you run the above through a spell checker it will fix most errors.
>
> > It does have interesting possibilities for encryption.
> > If none of the words are spelled right, how do you manage an automated
> > dictionary attacks.
>
> I don't think so. It's dsylxeia at work and anagrams do not pass for
> encryption. It is possible to have a spell checker mop it up
> automatically.


Possibly so with the newest & brightest. Not totally so not using my (older)
version of Word. A number of the "errors" did not have an automatic
suggestion so were not rectified by taking the preferred choice. This was
the experience of at least one other list member who provided a listing of
the paragraph after spell checking. It had a similar number of errors to my
result.

Here's my result:

Before

The pweor of the hmuan mnid
Accodrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht
oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht the frist
and lsat ltteer be at the rghit pclae.     The rset can be a total mses and
you can sitll raed it wouthit porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos
not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe.
Amzanig huh? :^)

AFTER:

The power of the human mind
According to a rscheearch at Cambridge Uinervtisy, it doesn't matter in what
order the letters in a word are, the only iprmoetnt thing is that the first
and slat letter be at the right plc. The rest can be a total mess and
you can still read it wouthit problem. This is bcuseae the human mind does
not read reify letter by itself, but the word as a whole.
Amazing huh? :^)

Better but not perfect.
Note that ervey has become reify.




       Russell McMahon

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2003\10\29@183922 by Gaston Gagnon

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Russell McMahon wrote:

{Quote hidden}

While you are coming back to this thread, for the record, I would like
to bring some precisions:

"Courriel" is a meaningful and elegant translation for email.

The french translation for "mail" in the sens of correspondence is
"courrier". So "email" (electronic mail) becomes naturally "courriel"
(courrier electronique) :)

Jinx previously wrote:
"What's thoroughly silly is that the word "mail" is a Modern
French derivative of an Old High German word. It's actually
the English who should be giving it the biff if anyone's going
to be precious"

Hum... Jinx, the french word "mail" has nothing to do with
correspondence or mail, it refers to a mall, an avenue. It is commonly
used for naming shopping center. ex. Mail Champlain which is a large
shopping center located in Brossard, Quebec :)

Gaston

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2003\10\29@192942 by Jinx

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> "What's thoroughly silly is that the word "mail" is a Modern
> French derivative of an Old High German word. It's actually
> the English who should be giving it the biff if anyone's going
> to be precious"
>
> Hum... Jinx, the french word "mail" has nothing to do with
> correspondence or mail, it refers to a mall, an avenue. It is
> commonly used for naming shopping center. ex. Mail
> Champlain which is a large shopping center located in
> Brossard, Quebec :)
>
> Gaston

OK, I'll accept that. The French are rejecting the Anglicised
word as used by English speakers

"mail - noun, from Old French "male", 'bag', Modern French
"malle", trunk, bag', from Old High German "malha", 'wallet',
a bag for carrying letters &c by post

And just to add yet another dimension and an inconsistency or
two - "mail", as it applied to letters and parcels, until recently was
an Americanism, the British more likely to use "post" in conversation,
even though the institution that delivers the post in the UK is, and
has been for some time, the "Royal Mail". But in America it's the
"Postal Service" ;-)

Etymology is a fascinating subject but far too big and unending
for the Piclist

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2003\10\30@035348 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>And have you noticed that quite a few web site registrations
>(eg http://www.drivers.com  and others) require a human to enter
>a word in distorted graphic form, as explained here

This was also one of the methods used by intelligence services during WW2 to
determine if the person operating the Morse key really was the supposed
agent, or a German impostor claiming to be the agent. Each agent had a known
pattern of spelling mistakes, and often the British intelligence found that
the errors did not occur, so assumed the Germans had captured the agent.

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2003\10\30@052500 by Jinx

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> Each agent had a known pattern of spelling mistakes, and
> often the British intelligence found that the errors did not
> occur, so assumed the Germans had captured the agent.

Ah, sneaky. That type of human failing was an important aid
to Bletchley Park's deciphering team. Enigma itself was a
pretty robust encryption system but the human operators'
carelessness and complacency was its undoing

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2003\10\30@053537 by Russell McMahon

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> determine if the person operating the Morse key really was the supposed
> agent, or a German impostor claiming to be the agent.

An experienced Morse code operator can identify the sender from his "fist".
It would be extremely difficult for a human operator to impersonate another.
This type of identification was known as far back as the US civil war.



       RM

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2003\10\30@094342 by Howard Winter

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Jinx,

On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 23:23:20 +1300, Jinx wrote:

> > Each agent had a known pattern of spelling mistakes, and
> > often the British intelligence found that the errors did not
> > occur, so assumed the Germans had captured the agent.
>
> Ah, sneaky. That type of human failing was an important aid
> to Bletchley Park's deciphering team. Enigma itself was a
> pretty robust encryption system but the human operators'
> carelessness and complacency was its undoing

Indeed - I was there only a couple of weeks ago, and it turns out that the Germans' belief that it couldn't be
cracked because of its 150 million million different settings - ten million times as many as the UK lottery
has combinations (I may have missed a factor of a million there, but you get the drift!) meant that they
didn't bother with some of the procedures, like picking random starting settings for the three rotors.  They
would often use the same ones, so giving a way in.  Similarly, they often started particular messages the same
way, or ended them with "Heil Hitler" so giving a "crib" - a guess at the plaintext, which meant that you'd
know when you'd found a match.

The word-scrambling that we were talking about would have made cracking Enigma almost impossible because it
wouldn't have appeared to be German even when they did get it right, but the problem is that as with most
cyphers the word-spacing wasn't transmitted, with letters sent in groups of five so the recipients would
probably not have been able to read it either!  :-)

tihs is waht i maen aobut not bneig albe to raed it:

tihsi swaht imaen aobut notbn eigal betor aedit

as opposed to:

thisi swhat imean about notbe ingab letor eadit

If they'd encrypted a space as well, word-scrabmling would have worked.

Cheers,

Howard Winter

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2003\10\30@095757 by Mike Harrison

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On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 14:42:21 +0000, you wrote:

>Jinx,
>
>On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 23:23:20 +1300, Jinx wrote:
>
>> > Each agent had a known pattern of spelling mistakes, and
>> > often the British intelligence found that the errors did not
>> > occur, so assumed the Germans had captured the agent.
>>
>> Ah, sneaky. That type of human failing was an important aid
>> to Bletchley Park's deciphering team. Enigma itself was a
>> pretty robust encryption system but the human operators'
>> carelessness and complacency was its undoing

This was true both in design and operation - one fatal flaw was that the wiring was such that a
letter could not be encoded to itself. This allowed a search to be done to eliminate a large
percentage of possible key settings.
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2003\10\30@151654 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
I just tried it on two spell checkers and the results were not so good.
But I think I know what the problem is. The spell checkers assume that
there is one or a few errors per word, not necessarily induced by
deliberate dyslexia. So they come up with alternatives that use *other*
letters than the ones in the word.

A 'decoder' for such text would be a specialised bit of code that would
take each word, split the first and last letters, and then try anagrams
of the middle against a dictionary until a match is found. This is very
trivial to write imho (even in Javascript although I do not know where I'd
put the dictionary in that case).

Peter

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