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'[OT]: ANSI text "drawing" software'
2002\01\23@114710 by Roman Black

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Douglas Butler wrote:
>
> > So what features would you want from a schematic
> > capture program? That is not going to be easy if you
> > need it to capture stuff from different sources, that
> > may have different sized symbols, text, etc etc.
> > -Roman
>
> Sounds good!  I would want R's C's L's transformers diodes transistors
> (bipolar & fet) simple gates grounds (at least two types) and supplies.
> Most importantly I would want little boxes I could put text into, for
> all the odd components that will come up.
>
> Sherpa Doug


I just whipped up a sample:
http://centauri.ezy.net.au/~fastvid/text.gif

You can get quite a complex circuit in a tight
space and it looks clean.
With the right software to draw them it would be
really easy to send circuits back and forth with
quick changes. :o)
-Roman

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2002\01\23@120806 by Douglas Butler

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Looks good!  I would like 2 characters for R1 vs. R2 etc.  A table below
could list values and part numbers if needed.

Sherpa Doug

> {Original Message removed}

2002\01\23@121223 by Martin Peach

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Roman Black" <spam_OUTfastvidTakeThisOuTspamEZY.NET.AU>
To: <.....PICLISTKILLspamspam@spam@MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2002 11:40 AM
Subject: Re: [OT]: ANSI text "drawing" software


{Quote hidden}

But not everybody has that kind of display...
...you can't complain about html postings and then post in ansi...I think
ascii is more universal. The user just has to view it in a fixed width font
such as Courier. This version should work on any terminal:

                         |
+12V----------------------|--------*---------
                +--------*        |
                C        C        L1
In----R1-------B-Q1   +-B-Q2       |
                E    |   E        |
                |    +---|---*-R4-*---------Out
                R2       R3  +-C1-+
                |        |
Gnd--------------*--------*------------------

/\/\/\/*=Martin

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2002\01\23@122323 by Roman Black

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Martin Peach wrote:
{Quote hidden}

Sure! No real problem to have a "mode" button to
save the text in either mode. It doesn't really have
to be ansi as such, most text character sets and windows
fonts have those characters and since colour is not needed
they should display on just about anything these days,
pardon me linux people if i'm wrong. But the use of the
proper line characters allows a compact neat diagram.

Which buttons do you press on the PC keyboard to generate
the extended characters? I've forgotten how to do it.
Can anyone send some of the line chars to the list and
see if they display?
-Roman

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2002\01\23@123254 by Roman Black

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Hi, do any of the windows experts here know if the
windows cipboard is just a data file? ie, can I save
a text file in a simple format into the windows
clipboard so that the next windows "paste" will
paste that text data??
-Roman


{Quote hidden}

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2002\01\23@124705 by Barry Michels

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www.jimprice.com/jim-asc.htm

Hold down ALT and type the ASCII number on the numeric keypad then release
ALT.  It won't work with the numbers above QWERTY.

{Original Message removed}

2002\01\23@125230 by Barry Michels

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Here's just the ASCII chart in a nice printable format:
http://www.jimprice.com/ascii-0-127.gif
http://www.jimprice.com/ascii-128-255.gif

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2002\01\23@130452 by Roman Black

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Barry Michels wrote:
>
> Here's just the ASCII chart in a nice printable format:
> http://www.jimprice.com/ascii-0-127.gif
> http://www.jimprice.com/ascii-128-255.gif


Thanks Barry, that saved me searching through some
books. :o)

But pressing ALT+179 etc gives me ¦ when it should be
a different char, one of the line chars.
Does that only work for the first 128 chars?
Any tips on getting piclist emails to show all the
ascii line chars from 179 to 223 etc??
-Roman

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2002\01\23@130509 by Paul Hutchinson

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I believe plain-text e-mail is limited to 7-bit characters (ASCII).

3456789:;<=>?@

Paul

> {Original Message removed}

2002\01\23@131802 by Paul Hutchinson

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Oops, I hit send too fast.

> I believe plain-text e-mail is limited to 7-bit characters (ASCII).
>
> 3456789:;<=>?@

These characters started out as ANSI line drawing characters 179 through
189.

Paul

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2002\01\23@132210 by Roman Black

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Paul Hutchinson wrote:
>
> I believe plain-text e-mail is limited to 7-bit characters (ASCII).

Hmm. If that is how email (and the piclist) works
then it is going to be limited to the 032 to 127
standard text chars?? But some other chars work fine,
the 128 to 168 seem to work ok on my computer at
least. :o)

So can something be done with a font editor?? Maybe
the text | (pole) can be replaced with a better
char, the --- (hyphen) with one that joins up, and
some of the unused ones with the critical corners
and joins that make for a neat circuit. :o)

I imagine a lot of us have email browsers that can
use any standard type font. Using a few characters
that we don't normally use for stuff and pass the
font around. All we need is someone with a font
editor.

Here's trying some symbols:
alt 127 
128 Ç
145 æ
146 Æ
168 ¿

Does anyone use those symbols in their emails now??
-Roman


{Quote hidden}

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2002\01\23@132735 by Barry Michels

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Yeah, in windows, change your font to 'Terminal' or 'Lucida Console'.   If
you look through the page those pics are from, you'll see a side-by-side
comparison between standard ASCII and Windows' character set.

But, as Paul H. pointed out, e-mail is limited to 7-bits. :(


{Original Message removed}

2002\01\23@133302 by Barry Michels

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I just did a test e-mail to myself in Outlook Express...  Sending an e-mail
with extended characters prompts the user: 'Send Unicode or send As-Is'?
As-Is results in just a bunch of question marks where the characters are
supposed to be.  Unicode works ok.  But, I assume that not all e-mail
viewers support Unicode...

----- Original Message -----
From: "Roman Black" <fastvidspamKILLspamEZY.NET.AU>
To: <.....PICLISTKILLspamspam.....MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2002 1:15 PM
Subject: Re: [OT]: ANSI text "drawing" software


Here's trying some symbols:
alt 127 
128 Ç
145 æ
146 Æ
168 ¿

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2002\01\23@133924 by Roman Black

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Barry Michels wrote:
>
> Yeah, in windows, change your font to 'Terminal' or 'Lucida Console'.   If
> you look through the page those pics are from, you'll see a side-by-side
> comparison between standard ASCII and Windows' character set.
>
> But, as Paul H. pointed out, e-mail is limited to 7-bits. :(


But I just emailed this:
alt 127 
128 Ç
145 æ
146 Æ
168 ¿

To myself and the pic list and both came through the
email system fine. I'm prepared to sacrifice a few
characters like these to have nice corners and joins.
-Roman

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2002\01\23@134902 by Roman Black

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Hmm. Netscape seems to send and receive them fine,
with no promts or error popups.

I'm still interested in writing some EE draw software
even with crude corners, I think the amount of times
I would use it, like in PIC .asm source I could put
the circuit, in posts to the piclist, in making quick
web page circuits, etc etc.

                C
  -------R----B
  |             E
  |             |
  |             |
  ---------------

Those nice joins and corners would make a lot of
difference though. So what ascii characters are
guaranteed to always work in emails? Are there a
few of those we could sacrifice for nice circuits?
Just for - and | that join up would be nice, and
a good join + and crossover (not join).
Any thoughts?
-Roman


Barry Michels wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2002\01\23@135158 by Barry Michels

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This might explain it better:
http://www.jhall.demon.co.uk/currency/charset.html


Look at the ISO 8859/1 standard:

!"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?
@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_
`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~
¡¢£¤¥¦§¨©ª«¬­®¯°±²³´µ¶·¸¹º»¼½¾¿
ÀÁÂÃÄÅÆÇÈÉÊËÌÍÎÏÐÑÒÓÔÕÖ×ØÙÚÛÜÝÞß
àáâãäåæÇèéêëìíîïðñòóôõö÷øùúûüÝþÿ

{Original Message removed}

2002\01\23@140342 by Roman Black

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Fantastic Barry! :o)
So the piclist is fully capable of ISO 8859/1.
My browser shows the symbols below fine, including
all the stupid (ie usable for us) ones on the
4th line down.

So all we need is a fixed width font with some of
those stupid symbols changed to good corners and
joins. :o)
-Roman



Barry Michels wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2002\01\23@140840 by Martin Peach

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Roman Black" <fastvidspamspam_OUTEZY.NET.AU>
To: <@spam@PICLISTKILLspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2002 1:42 PM
Subject: Re: [OT]: ANSI text "drawing" software


{Quote hidden}

I would suggest not requiring people to have special fonts installed. I
think for example, using * for a join and + for a crossover works OK. Also
using + for corners shouldn't introduce any confusion. Those neat line
characters only work in DOS anyway. A friend of mine once made a font for
the Macintosh that simply drew components instead of letters, so for
instance if 'a' was a horizontal resistor, 'b' a vertical resistor, 'c' a
horizontal cap, etc.
/\/\/\/*=Martin

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2002\01\23@141703 by Paul Hutchinson

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The characters above 127 got changed on the way to me.
TX  -> RX
128 -> 199
145 -> 230
146 -> 198
168 -> 191

>supposed to be.  Unicode works ok.  But, I assume that not all e-mail
>viewers support Unicode...

I think if you choose Unicode the message will be B64 encoded to allow the
non-ASCII characters.

As I understand it, the e-mail clients aren't the main problem. The main
problem is that internet mail servers only work with 7-bit ASCII. To
transport anything else it has to be encoded to 7-bit. This is why when you
e-mail a file it's transmission speed is much slower than you'd expect given
the line speed. A 100K binary often ends up being sent as a 130K+ B64 file,
of course you don't usually see this, as most mail clients automatically
encode/decode it without asking.

Paul

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2002\01\23@142840 by Roman Black

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Martin Peach wrote:
{Quote hidden}

Sure, using the standard text for the circuit would
be a given. But a custom windows font would be worth
having, even if just to improve the + * - | chars
so they join up better. It's only a few minutes work
with a font editor and i'm sure a lot of windows
users would be interested in a Courier+ font or
similar that has those few chars modded.

Some of the ISO 5589/1 characters that Barry posted:
¡¢£¤¥¦§¨©ª«¬­®¯°±²³´µ¶·¸¹º»¼½¾¿
Might make ok corners, and if someone also has the
"special" font they get the nice lines and corners.

How's this:
(Join + 4 corners)

-----©---¡      ¸--------
    |   |      |
    |   |      |
    |   |      |
    |   ª------¹

Compared to:

-----*---+      +--------
    |   |      |
    |   |      |
    |   |      |
    |   +------+

So it works ok with just a normal font, but if
the person has the special font they get the
perfect lines and corners. Win/win situation?
-Roman

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2002\01\23@185915 by Josh Koffman

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If you use windows, you can open up the "character map" application,
then click on the character you want. It then shows you what to press at
the bottom of the screen, or allows you to copy it and then paste into
your application.

Josh
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>
> > Which buttons do you press on the PC keyboard to generate
> > the extended characters? I've forgotten how to do it.
> > Can anyone send some of the line chars to the list and
> > see if they display?
> > -Roman

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2002\01\23@214559 by 859-1?Q?Alexandre_Guimar=E3es?=

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Hi, Roman

   They get to be "accented" characters for me... Remember that each
windows language can use it's own codepage ! Not every computer is
configured for english. I use codepage 850 if I remember correctly..

Best regards,
Alexandre Guimaraes


{Quote hidden}

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2002\01\24@165805 by Peter L. Peres
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Imho leave the graphical characters alone and draw your symbols using only
ASCII characters. You can use | for verticals, + for conrners, - for
horizontals and / and \ for diagonals. a v,^,<,> make arrows and * a
connected crossing. The graphical characters are mapped differently in all
countries with regional character sets. This is why your (Roman) keing
that combination produced a different character.

There exists at least one program that draws with ASCII. I do not know if
it supports symbols. Search Simtel or the other archives. Caveat: I
haven't tried it.

Peter

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2002\01\24@172207 by Peter L. Peres

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Roman, this is what I got ;-):

But I just emailed this:
alt 127 =7F
128 =C7
145 =E6
146 =C6
168 =BF

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2002\01\24@182437 by Bob Ammerman

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How characters will display will greatly depend on the character sets
implied and/or stated in the email headers (which depend on email clients,
code pages, ... and the phase of  the moon). The only universal character
set is plain old ascii.

Also, you have to worry about line wrapping at col 72 or possibly even less.

Bob Ammerman
RAm Systems

{Original Message removed}

2002\01\24@182446 by Bob Ammerman

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The windows clipboard is not a file. However it is trivial to 'clip' text
from a program and place it on the clipboard. It would be very easy to write
a simple program that would place the contents of a given text file on the
clipboard.

Bob Ammerman
RAm Systems

{Original Message removed}

2002\01\24@182453 by Bob Ammerman

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In windows try Alt-0179.

Note the the actual character displayed in windows depends on the character
set of the font.

Bob Ammerman
RAm Systems

{Original Message removed}

2002\01\24@182503 by Bob Ammerman

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This all depends on all the email clients involved being able to handle
appropriate headers, mime types, code pages, character sets, fontst, etc.
The LCD (lowest common denominator) is still 72 col 7-bit ASCII only.

Bob Ammerman
RAm Systems.

{Original Message removed}

2002\01\24@182513 by Bob Ammerman

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Just because the PICLIST can handle 8859/1 doesn't mean everybody's client
can.

Bob Ammerman
RAm Systems

{Original Message removed}

2002\01\25@031038 by Roman Black

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Peter L. Peres wrote:
>
> Imho leave the graphical characters alone and draw your symbols using only
> ASCII characters. You can use | for verticals, + for conrners, - for
> horizontals and / and \ for diagonals. a v,^,<,> make arrows and * a
> connected crossing. The graphical characters are mapped differently in all
> countries with regional character sets. This is why your (Roman) keing
> that combination produced a different character.
>
> There exists at least one program that draws with ASCII. I do not know if
> it supports symbols. Search Simtel or the other archives. Caveat: I
> haven't tried it.


Hi Peter, thanks, the program i'm working on uses only
standard text characters for the outputted diagram,
but it uses 800x600 x 256 colour graphic interface that
pretties it up and makes the circuits easier to draw.

I've checked all the ascii text diagram editors I could
find, Simtel etc, and didn't find anything suitable.
At least this way it will have the functions I want
and i'm happy to add features, new PICs etc whatever
people need.
-Roman

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