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'[OT]: detecting emergency vehicles part 2'
2004\06\15@210623 by Gus S.Calabrese

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Ha ha   My original question certainly went off
in a strange direction.

I really wanted to know a reliable way to
detect emergency vehicles with their flashers
on.  I had no plans to simulate an emergency vehicle.

If I detect emergency vehicles will I get in trouble ?
Are there laws against this ?


Gus S Calabrese
303.964.9670 vm   303.908.7716 cell no vm
http://www.omegadogs.com
4337 Raleigh St
Denver, CO 80212

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2004\06\15@222912 by David VanHorn

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At 07:03 PM 6/15/2004 -0600, Gus S.Calabrese wrote:

>Ha ha   My original question certainly went off
>in a strange direction.
>
>I really wanted to know a reliable way to
>detect emergency vehicles with their flashers
>on.  I had no plans to simulate an emergency vehicle.
>
>If I detect emergency vehicles will I get in trouble ?
>Are there laws against this ?

In the post-911 world, it's probably going to upset someone.

I recently wanted to get the location of all our fire and EMS stations, so I could put them on a map that we use to coordinate our activities with them.  Their addresses are not in the phone book, removed after 9-11.  Apparently, the location of the buildings with the big red noisy trucks with flashing lights, is a secret.

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2004\06\15@233143 by hilip Stortz

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that would depend entirely on your motivation and what you did with the
information.  i.e. letting people know the cops are coming will
consistently get you in trouble.  wanting to be able to have a better
idea when to pull over for them (to avoid some those unfortunate
accidents that most of us accept as the price of driving...) is probably
fine, but when it comes to the law, talk to a lawyer, all kinds of silly
things are illegal in some areas (in texas it's illegal to buy a beaker
without a license or to sell one to someone without a license,
apparently they think drug labs need proper glassware, shows how little
they know.  i've several beakers and volumetric flask, if i were making
drugs i wouldn't need them, for a project i want to do i will, in texas
i'd have to get a license, just to do basic chemistry!  when beakers are
outlawed, i will be a beaker outlaw).  oddly enough, in texas it's legal
to buy a bear at 7-11, go outside and drink it, and that's illegal
everywhere else i believe, or at least in most places.  what range do
you want to detect them at?  detecting flashes might be a good way.

it could be argued that they should have coded rf transmitters in
emergency vehicles resounding to a call so that cars could have
receivers to alert drivers to the distance and direction of approach of
emergency vehicles (without depending on people hearing and usually much
later seeing them), i know it is sometimes hard to tell at first if they
are close and what direction they are coming from, and i don't play the
stereo loud, with some of today's idiots it's a wonder there aren't more
emergency vehicle collisions, and there are a lot.

firefighters are more likely to die in an accident going to or from a
fire than in a fire on average, clearly that is something that needs to
be fixed, and i'd argue it needs fixing a lot more than people pushing
red lights does in most areas (then again, i've lived in boulder county,
and they could definitely use some enforcement of it there, it might
even save lives.  every time i though i was pushing a yellow light there
were very literally at least 2 cars coming through behind me, if you
stop on a yellow in boulder county you are taking a very real risk of
being rear ended and there being a 3+ car pileup).  then again, in
europe there seem to be an alarming number of huge pile up accidents
because people insist on driving too fast in fog down the highway, i'd
argue that that also is a more serious problem than most red light
runners who are pushing the yellow as opposed to going through seconds
after every one else has figured it out.

in fact, while we're at it, i'd say those moneys could save far more
lives it put into the fire and rescue services and public health in
general, 2 areas that are still terribly neglected, to the point that
fire insurance rates are increasing in some areas because cities simply
can't afford enough fire departments with enough equipment.

"Gus S.Calabrese" wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2004\06\15@234010 by David VanHorn

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> oddly enough, in texas it's legal
>to buy a bear at 7-11, go outside and drink it, and that's illegal
>everywhere else i believe, or at least in most places.


Illegal possibly, but it seems inordinately difficult to start with.
What size straw would you use?
How much are Bears anyway, at the 7-11?


If you think that's bad, in louisiana, the last time I was down there, they sold margaritas in up to big-gulp sizes, in foam cups, at gas stations.

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2004\06\15@234631 by hilip Stortz

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it's what some have rightly called "security theater", it doesn't really
make anyone safer, most people aren't fooled by it, but the people
making the stupid decisions and wasting time get to act like they are
doing something, too bad it isn't something that might actually help,
like working to change the way we in the u.s. try and control,
manipulate, and threaten the rest of the world, and how we put puppets
into power and ignore their evil until we need a distraction from how we
promised the afghan people that we would help them rebuild if they got
the soviets out, i guess breaking that promised cost us something,
though it cost the people of afghanistan a lot more.

it might also have helped if we hadn't used the pakistani's as middle
men when we knew they were delivering the weapons primarily to the most
religiously extreme groups, oops....  the hard fact is that the last
several american presidents are responsible for creating the conditions
that let alkiada (sp??) flourish, and for letting those conditions
continue until it became a problem for us, when we had promised so much
more.  we promised to help the afghan people, we didn't, a power vacuum
developed and was filled with scum, we let the scum ferment until it
made a stink over here, then, then it was a problem worth worrying about....

i'd suggest you flame off list, particularly if you don't have anything
intelligent to say, the truth is, there is sadly a lack of things to
say.  i wish i were wrong.

David VanHorn wrote:
--------
> In the post-911 world, it's probably going to upset someone.
>
> I recently wanted to get the location of all our fire and EMS stations, so I could put them on a map that we use to coordinate our activities with them.  Their addresses are not in the phone book, removed after 9-11.  Apparently, the location of the buildings with the big red noisy trucks with flashing lights, is a secret.
--------

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2004\06\16@001636 by Russell McMahon

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> David VanHorn wrote:
>> --------
> > In the post-911 world, it's probably going to upset someone.
> >
> > I recently wanted to get the location of all our fire and EMS stations,
> >so I could put them on a map that we use to coordinate our activities
with
> >them.  Their addresses are not in the phone book, removed after 9-11.
> >Apparently, the location of the buildings with the big red noisy trucks
> >with flashing lights, is a secret.

& Philip Stortz respondez:

> i'd suggest you flame off list, particularly if you don't have anything
> intelligent to say, the truth is, there is sadly a lack of things to
> say.  i wish i were wrong.

Wrong response to wrong post, I suggest ;-)


       RM

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2004\06\16@002257 by hilip Stortz

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ok, now that does scare me a bit.  it's also my understanding that
Louisiana is a fine example of an area with a lot of police corruption,
not meaning to insult the state in any way, it does have many fine attributes.

David VanHorn wrote:
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2004\06\16@005412 by hilip Stortz

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nope, right response, right post, wrong flaming point on your part
perhaps, if that was the intent.  in any case?????

Russell McMahon wrote:
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2004\06\16@050836 by Howard Winter

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Philip,

On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 21:30:59 -0600, Philip Stortz wrote:

> in texas it's legal to buy a bear at 7-11

Unless it's a Polar bear, of course, when it would be cruel to keep it in all that heat :-)

> it could be argued that they should have coded rf transmitters in
> emergency vehicles resounding to a call so that cars could have
> receivers to alert drivers to the distance and direction of approach of
> emergency vehicles (without depending on people hearing and usually much
> later seeing them), i know it is sometimes hard to tell at first if they
> are close and what direction they are coming from, and i don't play the
> stereo loud, with some of today's idiots it's a wonder there aren't more
> emergency vehicle collisions, and there are a lot.

Actually they could do a lot to improve things without this - experiments on the sound that emergency vehicles
make discovered that they normally produce a sine wave, albeit of a varying frequency, and the human ear is
very bad at detecting direction in this case.  They (Manchester University, I think) developed a sound that
was much more effective: it was a fast-warbling "yelp" note that lasted for about 1.25 sec, then two loud
rasping white noise bursts (with emphasis on the lower frequencies, I think, so perhaps pink noise), then
repeated.

It sounded something like:  WeeWeeWeeWee  Pzzzzt  Pzzzzt,  taking about 2 sec to do each sequence.

The warble carries well and can be heard at a distance, and starting and stopping it was found to be more
effective than having it continuous.  The white noise was very good at giving direction information because
ears work well at doing this with lots of frequencies.  They found that drivers reacted more quickly and were
more likely to take the correct avoiding action than with any of the existing sounds, and they tried lots of
other combinations, and this was the winner.   They estimated it would reduce accidents involving emergency
vehicles on "blues and twos" by about 80%.

Unfortunately it doesn't seem to have been adopted, and I've only ever heard one ambulance using it - and my
personal opinion from that one occasion is that it works!

Cheers,

Howard Winter
St.Albans, England

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2004\06\16@051046 by Howard Winter

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On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 19:03:04 -0600, Gus S.Calabrese
wrote:

> I really wanted to know a reliable way to
> detect emergency vehicles with their flashers
> on.  I had no plans to simulate an emergency vehicle.
>
> If I detect emergency vehicles will I get in trouble ?
> Are there laws against this ?

Since they *want* you to see them and get out of the
way, hence the flashing lights, what law would say you
shouldn't improve your chances of doing so?

Cheers,

Howard Winter
St.Albans, England.

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2004\06\16@051501 by Howard Winter

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David,

On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 22:40:20 -0500, David VanHorn wrote:

>...<
> If you think that's bad, in louisiana, the last time I
was down there, they sold margaritas in up to big-gulp
sizes, in foam cups, at gas stations.

I've never been to Louisiana, but I've been told by
someone who lives there that they have drive-through
margarita stands!

Cheers,

Howard Winter
St.Albans, England

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2004\06\16@052534 by hilip Stortz

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DOH!  i'll never trust spell checking again....  incidentally, i believe
they do use a similar sound here now, in any case it does usually vary
considerable and they actually have several sounds, switching to a more
obnoxious one when trying to get more attention like at an intersection
or when some idiot won't get out of the way.  seriously, i've actually
seen people run across a 4 lane street in front of an ambulance!  pretty
stupid, and they were my fellow college students, but i already new that
being in college didn't have much to do with intelligence or the ability
to survive.  there was no other traffic due to the lights changing for
the ambulance, but if one had tripped the ambulance probably would have
had to swerve to avoid their silly butts, fortunately (or unfortunately
from an evolutionary point of view) they all made it.  then again street
pizza probably would have made me late for class.

Howard Winter wrote:
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2004\06\16@052948 by hilip Stortz

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wow, you're trying to apply logic to the law!  in this country that can
get you into a lot of trouble quickly, then again stupidity does provide
a certain amount of legal protection in this country, which is a bit
alarming.  if the law were logical, most lawyers would be out of work,
and law libraries and their employees would be in for a rough time as
well.  seriously, depending on how it worked, and how much warning it
provided, and what you or someone else used it for you just might be
accused of obstruction of justice or some other offense with a very
broad and subjective definition.  for instance, if it detected them when
the lights and sirens weren't on yet, you could definitely have
problems.  actually, it might be very easy to detect them at all times,
in many places they have computer terminals with a live connection back
to the main frame, you could probably just detect an rf source at that
frequency nearby, but some people would not be at all happy about it.

Howard Winter wrote:
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