Post by thread:[OT]: Yet Another Religious War: Where to go aft

In order to keep starting religious wars (ala' the continuing endless debates about "C vs Asm" or "CCS vs Hitech" or "Ford vs Chevy" ) I want to ask: When a person has thoroughly learned the PIC, what would be a good line of microcontrollers to get under your belt to expand your repertoire? (assuming one is going to stay in the field of embedded controllers) Some ideas: 1. Branch out into a line with a "real" integrated LCD controller. Almost every LCD product I see designed in China has an integrated LCD controller microcontroller from Hitachi or Samsung. Microchip is less than lame about LCD controllers. Yes, they have an offering, it is expensive and so wimpy won't drive a tricycle through the Chunnel. Adding LCD controllers to PIC projects is like getting teeth extracted by glaciers. 2. Branch out into a line that offers 16 bit architecture and vastly more resources for embedded web serving. Yes, Microchip can do this but you have to add a lot of external resources, and you have to subtract a lot of things that are supposed to be in a TCP/IP stack. 3. Branch out into an old line micro like the 8051, since everybody makes one. OK, who want's to weigh in with the "best" course of action? -- Lawrence Lile Senior Project Engineer Toastmaster, Inc. Division of Salton, Inc. 573-446-5661 voice 573-446-5676 fax -- http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic: [PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads

Just my less-than-2-cents: > 1. Branch out into a line with a "real" integrated LCD controller. Almost > every LCD product I see designed in China has an integrated LCD controller > microcontroller from Hitachi or Samsung. Microchip is less than lame > about LCD controllers. Yes, they have an offering, it is expensive and so > wimpy won't drive a tricycle through the Chunnel. Adding LCD > controllers to PIC projects is like getting teeth extracted by glaciers. I think Motorola offers some choices throughout their 68HC08/11/12 lines. My only problem (of strictly personal taste) is that their Metrowerks compiler is pricey and takes a PhD to understand it. > 2. Branch out into a line that offers 16 bit architecture and vastly more > resources for embedded web serving. Yes, Microchip can do this but you > have to add a lot of external resources, and you have to subtract a lot of > things that are supposed to be in a TCP/IP stack. Hitachi H8. Or Motorola Coldfire (but see above) > 3. Branch out into an old line micro like the 8051, since everybody makes > one. Eccchh... Try the Atmel Mega series! Cheap/free development tools, C-friendly architecture, relatively speedy performance. > OK, who want's to weigh in with the "best" course of action? Brian Aase -- http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic: [PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads

Hi Lawrence, I'll start with an "It all depends". The PIC does a lot and the 18 series expands on that. Learning another microprocessor isn't that difficult after the first one. The Atmel AVR series is a bit nicer for C compiler generated code because the micro architecture was designed with high level languages in mind but otherwise there aren't many advantages or disadvantages; Ford or Chevy here. The 8051 has a larger code and data space with less hassles but it's really a choose the peripherals game there as it is with the Motorola family (68HC0X series). If you want to expand your knowledge then go to the 16 bit series and a 'real' RTOS. Writing code with an RTOS in the system requires a different mindset than simple PIC based state machines. The larger processors have the memory footprint to allow you to use more structured programming techniques. However, don't expect the programs to ultimately run any faster than they do on the PICs or the AVRs. I've branched into the TMS320F2812 family to get my hands a bit dirty with DSP. That is one sweet chip and there's a reasonably inexpensive development board from Spectrum Digital which can be purchased with TI's entire C compiler development environment with single step debugging etc. I've almost finished laying out a small extension board for it that can talk to two PWM DC motor amplifiers and can handle two quadrature encoders. And of course a socket for my CANRF module (Blatant self promotion there). My intention is to build a dual DC motor controller that will allow electronic gearing for a metal lathe with Spindle Speed control tied electronically to the Carriage Axis via an electronic gear for screw threading. That sort of project is right up the alley for DSP. And because the 2812 has a built in CAN processor it can function of the CAN bus for programmed control. Cheers, John Dammeyer Wireless CAN with the CANRF module now available. http://www.autoartisans.com/products Automation Artisans Inc. Ph. 1 250 544 4950 > {Original Message removed}

Two and two makes four.... About a year ago I went in for a couple of the well-advertsed TI MSP430 kits. I don't even think of using them for anything other than battery powered stuff, but they do have pretty nice integrated LCD controllers from the mid-range on up. The Dev kits run in the neighborhood of $79 to $199 and contain a full IDE. There's no limit on assembly code but the C compiler is limited only in # of lines. (...good for me - I hate C!...probably due to wrestling with mChip C18) I have used the MSP stuff a few times and have not found them buggy at all. It's the 3V thing that keeps me from using it more often... I hit the LCD obstacle with PICs about, well, perhaps once or twice per week..... C > > Just my less-than-2-cents: > > > 1. Branch out into a line with a "real" integrated LCD > controller. > > > OK, who want's to weigh in with the "best" course of action? -- http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic: [PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads

> When a person has thoroughly learned the PIC, what would be a > good line of > microcontrollers to get under your belt to expand your repertoire? > (assuming one is going to stay in the field of embedded controllers) Like all religious wars the war starts when you ask a question without providing sufficient background information, because veryone will fill in the blanks using his own background. Just to start: what kind of work do you expect to do? one-offs versus 100k series? toys, consumer electronics, warheads or sattelites? 0.5k code 8bit microcontrollersor or 8 Mb code 64-bit DSPs? And what do you like?? Wouter van Ooijen -- ------------------------------------------- Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl consultancy, development, PICmicro products -- http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic: [PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads

On Tuesday 11 February 2003 12:11 pm, you wrote: > In order to keep starting religious wars (ala' the continuing endless > debates about "C vs Asm" or "CCS vs Hitech" or "Ford vs Chevy" ) I > want to ask: > > When a person has thoroughly learned the PIC, what would be a good > line of microcontrollers to get under your belt to expand your > repertoire? (assuming one is going to stay in the field of embedded > controllers) <snip for brevity> > OK, who want's to weigh in with the "best" course of action? I went the 805x route after working with the PIC for a while (I wouldn't say that I had "thoroughly" learned the PIC though) I enjoyed using it because it had some unusual characteristics (as compared to the completely "ordinary" PIC) ;-) It's an interesting chip, but it's still a Harvard architecture. There are so many variants that it would be hard to find an embedded application that just couldn't be done with one. What I can say here is that if you don't like the odd way that PIC I/O pins work, just try this one on for size. ;-) Now, I'm just starting to dink with a $20.00 (Digikey) Motorola dev board containing a QT 8 pin HC08 family processor. I find it interesting as it's a Von Neuman (sp?) architecture, which brings back fond memories of my "real" computer days on a mainframe. Plus the assembler mnemonics resemble (slightly) the mainframe that I used to program. One nice thing here is that Metroworks has made available a free version of their Codewarior IDE and C compiler for the HC08. Of course it has a 4K code limit, but then so does the QT. ;-) At this point I have no particular favorite for doing all things, and there are still others that I need to try out. I feel that they each have their place, each with it's own particular strengths, weaknesses, and gotchas. I will still always have a certain fondness for the PIC. michael -- http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic: [PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads

The purpose of my question has two parts, Wouter: 1. I think about branching into another line of micros because I am worried I am "married" to microchip. I think others may be thinking this same thing. Microchip begins salivating anytime I decide to design a new project. 2. I think that if my company gets bought by Chainsaw Al next week and I am out of a job I would be more marketable to a new employer if I knew more than PICs. 3. I have absolutely no idea what I will be designing two years from now. Except if I stay here it will probably be a toaster or an oven. 4. Most of my paying work will involve consumer goods with volumes in the hundreds of thousands or millions. 5. Most of my fun work will involve things like robot mowers with volumes in the 2's (knowing that the first one won't work.) 6. I don't know enough about web nuts and bolts to even begin designing a web-enabled device. 7. I like things that are small, cheap, ingenious, efficient, and do a lot with little resources. Well that is at least seven parts. ;-) -- Lawrence Lile Wouter van Ooijen <spam_OUTwouterTakeThisOuTVOTI.NL> Sent by: pic microcontroller discussion list <.....PICLISTKILLspam@spam@MITVMA.MIT.EDU> 02/11/2003 01:09 PM Please respond to pic microcontroller discussion list To: PICLISTKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU cc: Subject: Re: [OT]: Yet Another Religious War: Where to go after PICs? > When a person has thoroughly learned the PIC, what would be a > good line of > microcontrollers to get under your belt to expand your repertoire? > (assuming one is going to stay in the field of embedded controllers) Like all religious wars the war starts when you ask a question without providing sufficient background information, because veryone will fill in the blanks using his own background. Just to start: what kind of work do you expect to do? one-offs versus 100k series? toys, consumer electronics, warheads or sattelites? 0.5k code 8bit microcontrollersor or 8 Mb code 64-bit DSPs? And what do you like?? Wouter van Ooijen -- ------------------------------------------- Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl consultancy, development, PICmicro products -- http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic: [PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads -- http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic: [PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads

Chris Sez, >It's the 3V thing that keeps me from using it more often... I hit the LCD obstacle with PICs about, well, perhaps once or twice per week..... Me too. I said this in plain english to several MCHIP reps and executives. They think they can't compete in LCD controllers. LCD's are a pain in the #@4&*&*#@$^#*&^ because they are not integrated into the microcontroller I am married to. Hitachi, anyone? --Lawrence -- http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic: [PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads

On Tue, 11 Feb 2003, .....llileKILLspam.....SALTONUSA.COM wrote: *>The purpose of my question has two parts, Wouter: *> *>1. I think about branching into another line of micros because I am *>worried I am "married" to microchip. I think others may be thinking this *>same thing. Microchip begins salivating anytime I decide to design a new *>project. LOL. xx51 derivatives are very 'diversified' so besides being ancient history and very slow (when compared to alternatives), they are considered the 'safe choice' I think. They also have mature (both $$$ and free) tool support. Entry level for small projects is AT89S8252 which is 8k flash rom 2k (bytes not bits) eeprom 256 bytes ram and serial flash programmable 40 pins, of which 33+ IO, with little more than 3 wires from a PC parallel port. *>3. I have absolutely no idea what I will be designing two years from now. *>Except if I stay here it will probably be a toaster or an oven. *> *>4. Most of my paying work will involve consumer goods with volumes in the *>hundreds of thousands or millions. You sound like you need to get to know the 4 bit and 8 bit mask programmed SE Asian beasts. The kind you would find under an epoxy blob in any product from your competition I think. *>5. Most of my fun work will involve things like robot mowers with volumes *>in the 2's (knowing that the first one won't work.) That sounds like embedded linux or VxWorks or whatever other kernel you like on SBCs bought for the purpose to me. You get to design and build the hw interface probably using another micro, and write the software. *>6. I don't know enough about web nuts and bolts to even begin designing a *>web-enabled device. You will, with the start from above imho. *>7. I like things that are small, cheap, ingenious, efficient, and do a lot *>with little resources. Would something like that sell good ? ;-) Peter -- http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic: [PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads

At 12:11 PM 2/11/2003 -0600, you wrote: 4. Consider 16/32 and 33-bit architectures with LCD controllers built-in such as the ARM. Typically they have a fair bit of internal RAM (like 32K), are often rich in well-implemented peripherals and are used with external FLASH. You can use the GNU toolchain; evaluation boards are sometimes available for < $1K. Try Samsung and Sharp. Best regards, Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward" EraseMEspeffspam_OUTTakeThisOuTinterlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com -- http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic: [PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads

On Tue, 11 Feb 2003 14:08:46 -0600, you wrote: >Chris Sez, >>It's the 3V thing that keeps me from using it more often... >I hit the LCD obstacle with PICs about, well, perhaps once or twice per >week..... > > >Me too. I said this in plain english to several MCHIP reps and >executives. They think they can't compete in LCD controllers. LCD's are >a pain in the #@4&*&*#@$^#*&^ because they are not integrated into the >microcontroller I am married to. Hitachi, anyone? > >--Lawrence The 923/4 is reasonably nice, but PLEASE can we have a flash version....? -- http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic: [PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads

> The purpose of my question has two parts, Wouter: [snip] In that case I am not a good advisor, unless you want to branch into the very-high-reliability quite-small-numbers area where I have spend most of my time. But you could ask yourself: "what am I realy good at" (notjust now, but also potetially). For you that seems to be squeezing out the last millicents of the unit costprice of a 1M+ series, then I would suggest widening your horizon to very cheap chips, which are probably difficult to use and obscurely documented, so there is a lot to learn. And maybe learn Chinese ;) Wouter van Ooijen -- ------------------------------------------- Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl consultancy, development, PICmicro products -- http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic: [PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads

On Tue, 11 Feb 2003 21:46:27 +0100, you wrote: >> The purpose of my question has two parts, Wouter: >[snip] > >In that case I am not a good advisor, unless you want to branch into the >very-high-reliability quite-small-numbers area where I have spend most >of my time. > >But you could ask yourself: "what am I realy good at" (notjust now, but >also potetially). For you that seems to be squeezing out the last >millicents of the unit costprice of a 1M+ series, then I would suggest >widening your horizon to very cheap chips, which are probably difficult >to use and obscurely documented, . and only available in mask-rom, with expensive and poorly documented devtools... -- http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic: [PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads

At 09:00 PM 2/11/2003 +0000, you wrote: >On Tue, 11 Feb 2003 21:46:27 +0100, you wrote: > > >> The purpose of my question has two parts, Wouter: > >[snip] > > > >In that case I am not a good advisor, unless you want to branch into the > >very-high-reliability quite-small-numbers area where I have spend most > >of my time. > > > >But you could ask yourself: "what am I realy good at" (notjust now, but > >also potetially). For you that seems to be squeezing out the last > >millicents of the unit costprice of a 1M+ series, then I would suggest > >widening your horizon to very cheap chips, which are probably difficult > >to use and obscurely documented, . >and only available in mask-rom, with expensive and poorly documented >devtools... ...that don't work all that nicely.. I'll gladly do it, when someone pays me, of course, but they could also pay local engineers who can live well on what I pay for real estate taxes or heating/air conditioning each year. Unless it involves some special knowledge or skills... AFAIUI the MCU providers will work with customers to do the designs for cheap/free if it moves acres of silicon. Best regards, Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward" speffspam_OUTinterlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com -- http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic: [PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads

I suggest you go straight to the ARM processor, and I'll tell you why: Multiple sources Lots of variation Small parts (Arm Thumb from Atmel) to large parts Since both Palm and Microsoft have settled on ARM for their PDAs they will run on the market like water (cheap, low power, fast, easy to develop for) Mature, free toolchains But if you don't want to make that big of a jump you might consider looking into Mitsubishi. Their M16C line of flash uControllers are just too cute to pass up. Can you imagine 256KB of Flash program memory on chip? All this and more for $20 a chip or less. They are typical in that C compilers are expensive, as are dev kits, but they are supported by midrange and high end programmers, and the assembler, IIRC, is free. You might also consider going to a 'real' processor with off-chip memory and flash. Depends on the application, of course. -Adam @spam@llileKILLspamSALTONUSA.COM wrote: {Quote hidden}>In order to keep starting religious wars (ala' the continuing endless >debates about "C vs Asm" or "CCS vs Hitech" or "Ford vs Chevy" ) I want to >ask: > >When a person has thoroughly learned the PIC, what would be a good line of >microcontrollers to get under your belt to expand your repertoire? >(assuming one is going to stay in the field of embedded controllers) > >Some ideas: > >1. Branch out into a line with a "real" integrated LCD controller. Almost >every LCD product I see designed in China has an integrated LCD controller >microcontroller from Hitachi or Samsung. Microchip is less than lame >about LCD controllers. Yes, they have an offering, it is expensive and so >wimpy won't drive a tricycle through the Chunnel. Adding LCD >controllers to PIC projects is like getting teeth extracted by glaciers. > >2. Branch out into a line that offers 16 bit architecture and vastly more >resources for embedded web serving. Yes, Microchip can do this but you >have to add a lot of external resources, and you have to subtract a lot of >things that are supposed to be in a TCP/IP stack. > >3. Branch out into an old line micro like the 8051, since everybody makes >one. > >OK, who want's to weigh in with the "best" course of action? > > >-- Lawrence Lile >Senior Project Engineer >Toastmaster, Inc. >Division of Salton, Inc. >573-446-5661 voice >573-446-5676 fax > >-- >http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic: >[PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads > > > > > -- http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic: [PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads

I haven't looked into it recently. There are development kits that start at $250[US], though I haven't performed a very thourough search. Kits in this range usually come with the ARM developers kit software. You might consider going down the road of buying a cheap pocketpc (get the 3150 off ebay for ~100) which has flash, SDRAM, a greyscale LCD, etc. I'd probably choose to get an arm thumb from atmel first, though, and develop my own board and toolchain, since they are the closest to what I know now. But I haven't really gone very deeply into it. -Adam Jonathan Johnson wrote: {Quote hidden}>... > >What's the best place to start with the ARM series? > >and what's the pricing like on the chips? > >Cheers >Jonathan > > > -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics

Scott D mentioned looking at ARM a while ago AFAIR. Maybe he has some comment to make on hood entry paths? RM {Quote hidden}> There are development kits that start at $250[US], though I haven't > performed a very thourough search. Kits in this range usually come with > the ARM developers kit software. > > You might consider going down the road of buying a cheap pocketpc (get > the 3150 off ebay for ~100) which has flash, SDRAM, a greyscale LCD, etc. > > I'd probably choose to get an arm thumb from atmel first, though, and > develop my own board and toolchain, since they are the closest to what I > know now. -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics

On Thu, 13 Feb 2003, Russell McMahon wrote: > Scott D mentioned looking at ARM a while ago AFAIR. > Maybe he has some comment to make on hood entry paths? Sure! Any takers on guessing what this does: ; R0 7-0 = data ; R1 15-0 = crc ; eor R0,R0,R1 LSR 8 ; R0 = t = (crc>> 8) ^ data eor R0,R0,R0 LSR 4 ; R0 = t ^ (t>>4) eor R1,R0,R1 LSL 8 ; R1 = (crc << 8) ^ t eor R1,R1,R0 LSL 5 ; R1 = (crc << 8) ^ t ^ (t<<5) eor R1,R1,R0 LSL 12 ; R1 = (crc << 8) ^ t ^ (t<<12) Okay, yeah, it's a CRC algorithm, but which one? In my opinion, the ARM processor is a very logical next step for PIC's. The ARM cores address the same type of markets addressed by PIC's and other microcontrollers. The difference of course is that the ARM is a much more powerful processor and can address a broader range of markets. For example, I've been using the Atmel's AT91R40008 along with a Synaptics capacitive sensing ASIC to build an extremely low power, stand-alone Chinese Character Recognition module: http://www.synaptics.com/press/pr_detail.cfm?prid=66 I'm quite certain that no PIC (or any other 8-bit microcontroller) can come anywhere close to solving this problem. However, I'm also quite certain that the experienced I gained working with 8-bit microcontrollers for many years has helped in working on the ARM. Scott PS. Incidently, I'm not subscribed to [ot]: threads, but this one for some reason is getting through. -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics

Scott Dattalo wrote: > > ; R0 7-0 = data > ; R1 15-0 = crc > ; > > eor R0,R0,R1 LSR 8 ; R0 = t = (crc>> 8) ^ data > eor R0,R0,R0 LSR 4 ; R0 = t ^ (t>>4) > eor R1,R0,R1 LSL 8 ; R1 = (crc << 8) ^ t > eor R1,R1,R0 LSL 5 ; R1 = (crc << 8) ^ t ^ (t<<5) > eor R1,R1,R0 LSL 12 ; R1 = (crc << 8) ^ t ^ (t<<12) > > Okay, yeah, it's a CRC algorithm, but which one? Seems to be CRCX25. x16 + x12 + x5 + x1 -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics