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'[OT]: [ADMIN]: Voting for/against tags'
2000\08\10@163126 by Robert Rolf

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Dan Michaels wrote:
>
> Andy Kunz wrote:
> >>Sorry about my incorrect subject header. I will figure out the syntax.
> >
> >Don't you be sorry.  WE'RE sorry that James makes us do this.
> >
>
> Seconded. Shall we vote now?

I already have.

I've stopped posting to the list even though I often had something to
contribute to the threads. It's saved me a lot of time (and dunning
notices from replies to incorrectly formatted subject lines) so _thank
you_ James for curing my 'stupidity'.

I wonder what the subscriber stats are for the 'new' sorted lists?
My guess would be that most people are still subscribed to the old,
unsorted list, expecting that we're adult enough to know how to
use the delete key for threads that don't interest us.

I'm in favour of tags, but I've no tolerance for automatically
generated 'you're a dunce' notices, particularly when its due to
someone else's (thread initiators) error. Since the robot isn't
smart enough to tell a reply from a new thread, and I don't believe
in messing up the 'subject sort' many people use to follow threads (by
changing it), I simply abstain, and avoid the dunning mailbot.

Robert

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2000\08\10@184031 by Alan B. Pearce

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>I wonder what the subscriber stats are for the 'new' sorted lists?
>My guess would be that most people are still subscribed to the old,
>unsorted list, expecting that we're adult enough to know how to
>use the delete key for threads that don't interest us.

well I am one of these, and I find the tags useful for subsorting the messages
into useful categories that allow me to take the messages in byte sized chunks
that make the threads easier to follow.

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2000\08\10@194213 by dal wheeler

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//rant on

I guess I'd have to say I'm for tagging as well, but half of the time I'm
confused as to what the correct method/criteria is used for the tag.  For
instance, is this [OT] or [ADMIN] since this *must* be tagged one or the
other (some must confused as well, because I didn't start this thread with
two tags).  I'm not sure as to why [PIC] topics *must* be tagged.  It would
seem to me that being the piclist it should be assumed to be pic content by
default.  I understand that people digress and go off on questions about
other processors, but should'nt they be the special case?  Also, I object to
some on this list excessively policing others too the list thus adding to
the noise, (isn't this what tagging was supposed to remedy?)

Getting to the point, I'm a bit confused sometimes with this scheme and my
native language is English (although Americanized).  Anything that makes an
individual hesitant to post to this list (for fear of publicly making a
posting mistake) limits the utility of the list.  I don't feel that I'm
particularly "too dumb to read the rules", but I suppose I am arrogant at
times.  :)  Let's decide what will make everyone happy and try to stick to
it without beating up on others that don't follow the rules to strictly.
Most people will respond to gentle reminders that aren't mass posted-- if we
feel that is needed.

//rant off

{Original Message removed}

2000\08\10@200117 by Russell McMahon

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>I'm in favour of tags, but I've no tolerance for automatically
>generated 'you're a dunce' notices, particularly when its due to
>someone else's (thread initiators) error. Since the robot isn't
>smart enough to tell a reply from a new thread, and I don't believe
>in messing up the 'subject sort' many people use to follow threads (by
>changing it), I simply abstain, and avoid the dunning mailbot.


Hey - even "I" am learning how to add a colon.

And, as you say, one can just use the delete key on the helpful (and very
polite) auto message when you get it wrong.

Wouldn't YOU just love to be a list administrator? - go on, give it a go -
It must be a really thrilling and rewarding experience spoon-feeding all we
PIC renegades and so fulfilling when we are so thankful and appreciative of
the effort put in on our behalves  :-)




Russell McMahon

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2000\08\10@210600 by Dan Michaels

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Robert  wrote:
........
>I'm in favour of tags, but I've no tolerance for automatically
>generated 'you're a dunce' notices, particularly when its due to
>someone else's (thread initiators) error. Since the robot isn't
>smart enough to tell a reply from a new thread, and I don't believe
>in messing up the 'subject sort' many people use to follow threads (by
>changing it), I simply abstain, and avoid the dunning mailbot.
>


Actually, I am in favor of tags too, but what I can't understand
is, if the computer is smart enough to recognize a bad tag, and
send you a crack across the knuckles, why isn't it smart enough
to simply append a [TIE]: "tag in error" or [OT]: tag to it,
post the email, and go on about its merry way? Sure would save
on BW. But then, I guess it's just a computer.

- danM

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2000\08\11@044734 by Alan B. Pearce

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>if the computer is smart enough to recognize a bad tag, and
>send you a crack across the knuckles, why isn't it smart enough
>to simply append a [TIE]: "tag in error" or [OT]: tag to it,

It's even smarter than that. It does not add any tag, so that you can still miss
it by not having it go into any box.

In short why have it add a strange tag, or a tag which is likely to be totally
wrong? Most of the untagged messages are relevant, but could be equally spread
across any of the valid tags. It is just as much a no brainer to put a tag which
is not valid to the subject matter as it is to send it with no tag at all.

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2000\08\11@070723 by Andrew Kunz

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I noticed you hadn't said anything much lately, just figured it was being too
busy.

Seeing that the stupid tags are killing the input on the list CERTAINLY is a
major grounds for removing the tag requirement, imho.  For every one (like you)
who says that, there are probably several others who don't.]

Andy










Robert Rolf <spam_OUTRobert.RolfTakeThisOuTspamUALBERTA.CA> on 08/10/2000 04:29:51 PM

Please respond to pic microcontroller discussion list <.....PICLISTKILLspamspam@spam@MITVMA.MIT.EDU>








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cc:      (bcc: Andrew Kunz/TDI_NOTES)



Subject: [OT]: [ADMIN]: Voting for/against tags








Dan Michaels wrote:
>
> Andy Kunz wrote:
> >>Sorry about my incorrect subject header. I will figure out the syntax.
> >
> >Don't you be sorry.  WE'RE sorry that James makes us do this.
> >
>
> Seconded. Shall we vote now?

I already have.

I've stopped posting to the list even though I often had something to
contribute to the threads. It's saved me a lot of time (and dunning
notices from replies to incorrectly formatted subject lines) so _thank
you_ James for curing my 'stupidity'.

I wonder what the subscriber stats are for the 'new' sorted lists?
My guess would be that most people are still subscribed to the old,
unsorted list, expecting that we're adult enough to know how to
use the delete key for threads that don't interest us.

I'm in favour of tags, but I've no tolerance for automatically
generated 'you're a dunce' notices, particularly when its due to
someone else's (thread initiators) error. Since the robot isn't
smart enough to tell a reply from a new thread, and I don't believe
in messing up the 'subject sort' many people use to follow threads (by
changing it), I simply abstain, and avoid the dunning mailbot.

Robert

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2000\08\11@080551 by Jinx

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> Seeing that the stupid tags are killing the input on the list

Is that a fair comment ? AFAIK Robert is the only one I recall
saying that he'd stopped posting. And the reason, inability to
correctly format a subject line, isn't _that_ big a reason is it ?
Really ? However the system is set up, somebody somewhere
will always have trouble, despite admins best efforts or intentions

I take all mail, and I have had the odd couple bounce back on me,
perhaps if I get a semi-colon instead of a colon, or someone else's
mis-tag. But s* happens, you learn, try not to make the mistake and
move on

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2000\08\11@081213 by Andy Howard

picon face
----- Original Message -----
From: "Andrew Kunz" <.....akunzKILLspamspam.....TDIPOWER.COM>
To: <EraseMEPICLISTspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Friday, August 11, 2000 12:07 PM
Subject: Re: [OT]: [ADMIN]: Voting for/against tags


> I noticed you hadn't said anything much lately, just figured it was being
too
> busy.
>
> Seeing that the stupid tags are killing the input on the list CERTAINLY is
a
> major grounds for removing the tag requirement, imho.  For every one (like
you)
> who says that, there are probably several others who don't.]


I quite like having some kind of tag, so the messages can be sorted into
folders in my client. That way I can read the OTs and others when time is
plentiful (HA!) and just the PIC and EE at other times.

Where the problem arises IMHO is in the auto-sorting at the server which
requires the exact syntax including the colon etc, and which generates the
error messages.

My vote would be for voluntary tagging using the current categories but with
no insistence on the colonic format (pun intended) which seems to be
designed to make the list machine-friendly but which has the Newtonian equal
and opposite effect of making it person-unfriendly.

My mailer is set up to put messages containing [EE] or (EE) or {EE} or {EE]
etc. into a folder called EE, ditto the other categories. Most mail clients
allow some similar filtering so there is no need for people that wish to
avoid off-topic postings to ever see them.

Then maybe there could just be a simple advisory message for all untagged
messages pointing out that they might not be seen by some PICListers, and no
more of those irritating syntactical advisories.

The only major difference would be that all messages would get downloaded,
and only then are the unwanted bits rejected, which surely can't be a
problem to very many people, what with modern downloading speeds. By my
reckoning PIC and EE postings are probably 75% of all messages anyway so the
overhead for OT won't be *very* high.

A question for James, Mike or whoever. How many subscribers take [PIC]: only
messages, how many [PIC]: and [EE]: and how many everything?  IOW how much
use do PICsters make of the colonic server sorting functions?

Oh yeah, and how many take [OT]: only  :>


Anyway. Just my two penn'orth.







.

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2000\08\11@093504 by Andrew Kunz

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I stand by it.

If the process required to prevent those obnoxious messages about formatting is
preventing somebody, anybody, from posting, they are NOT worth having here!

I think it would be wise for James to do some stats on the list member profiles
(what tags they receive) and see just how many turn off which tags.

Andy








Jinx <joecolquittspamspam_OUTCLEAR.NET.NZ> on 08/11/2000 08:08:45 AM

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Subject: Re: [OT]: [ADMIN]: Voting for/against tags








> Seeing that the stupid tags are killing the input on the list

Is that a fair comment ? AFAIK Robert is the only one I recall
saying that he'd stopped posting. And the reason, inability to
correctly format a subject line, isn't _that_ big a reason is it ?
Really ? However the system is set up, somebody somewhere
will always have trouble, despite admins best efforts or intentions

I take all mail, and I have had the odd couple bounce back on me,
perhaps if I get a semi-colon instead of a colon, or someone else's
mis-tag. But s* happens, you learn, try not to make the mistake and
move on

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2000\08\11@094130 by Andrew Kunz

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>My vote would be for voluntary tagging using the current categories but with
>no insistence on the colonic format (pun intended) which seems to be
>designed to make the list machine-friendly but which has the Newtonian equal

                                                             ^^^^^^^^^

Pun intended here too? <G>

Andy

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2000\08\11@094748 by Jinx

face picon face
> I stand by it.
>
> If the process required to prevent those obnoxious messages about
formatting is
> preventing somebody, anybody, from posting, they are NOT worth having
here!

OTOH, how many would have left completely if there wasn't some method
of filtering

> I think it would be wise for James to do some stats on the list member
profiles
> (what tags they receive) and see just how many turn off which tags.

That would be a good way to judge the actual scale and relevance of
the/any problem. With figures to point at then perhaps some progress
could be made instead of prolonged yes it does/no it doesn't postings,
which aren't healthy either. I'm easy either way, but obviously some of
the list feel more strongly than I do about this

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2000\08\11@101407 by Don Hyde

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I would like to add my vote against the tags.

I do not find them to be useful, I always scan subject lines, and delete a
whole subject if I find it not of interest.  If it looks to be about
something I don't understand, then I'm automatically interested.  The tags
don't give enough information to know if I might be interested.

My preference would be for people to take time to make their subject lines
good telegrams -- you know, like once-upon-a-time when you paid by the word
for a message.  And don't be afraid to change the subject line if you change
the subject.

Mostly all I use the tags for is to discard the messages that are wasting
bandwidth arguing about the silly tags.

Those who love the tags, PLEASE use the [ADMIN] tag so I can discard these
quickly.

> {Original Message removed}

2000\08\11@112000 by Dan Michaels

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Looking at piclist archives for August shows that about 120 of 859
msgs mistagged, and some "threads" are scattered and broken
into many pieces. Some threads have several "attempts" made to
correct a previous bad tag. As soon as you have a system in place
with "strong syntactical" requirements, infringements occur all
the time.

To re-iterate my "logic" from yesterday, if the computer were
to *automatically* add a tag - say [OT]: - to any msg that came
in with a bad tag, then:

- all msgs would have a valid tag.
- lazy people could stay lazy, rigorous people stay rigorous.
- no-one would be receiving knuckle waps for using a bad tag.
- no-one would be receiving knuckle waps for responding to
 someone else's msg that had a bad tag.
- responders wouldn't have to correct bad tags to preclude
 getting a knuckle wap.
- threads would be more compact, and easier to follow in the
 archives.
- tag-filterers could still [de]select what they wanted.
- arguing would cease, as everyone who dislikes the tag system
 wouldn't have to use one -[unless of course you wanted to be
 sure how your msg was classified].

cheers,
- danM

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2000\08\11@112214 by jamesnewton

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I've tried to explain before but once again....

...LSoft writes the list server software... NOT ME.
...I wrote the automatic reminder message program... NOT THEM.

The reminder just gets email from the "Other:" channel (i.e. the posts that
were not properly tagged AS DECIDED BY THE LSOFT LIST SERVER) it then does a
bit of detective work to find the original poster and sends that person a
friendly reminder.

By the time the reminder program gets the post, all the other people on the
list have already been sent the post. And no, LSoft has not provided a way
to change the tagging of the "Other:" channel. If they did, I would have set
it up so that all non-tagged posts went out as [OT]:'s

Please send your suggestion to lsoft.com, but be nice as MIT and LSoft are
being very kind in allowing us to host on thier machines / software.

---
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{Original Message removed}

2000\08\11@113839 by jamesnewton

face picon face
Please send your suggestion about not requiring the colon to LSoft. But be
nice about it as they and MIT are being very kind in hosting this list at no
cost.

A small percentage of members have turned off any of the tags, however many
members are enjoying the better enforcement of tagging for their own sorting
and filtering and complaints about untagged off topic posts have dropped to
near zero.

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{Original Message removed}

2000\08\11@114044 by jamesnewton

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Please send your suggestion to LSoft. But be nice about it as they and MIT
are being very kind in hosting this list at no cost. I have no ability to
implement your suggestion.

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{Original Message removed}

2000\08\12@052602 by Andy Howard

picon face
> From: "Andrew Kunz" <RemoveMEakunzspamTakeThisOuTTDIPOWER.COM>

> >My vote would be for voluntary tagging using the current categories but
with
> >no insistence on the colonic format (pun intended) which seems to be
> >designed to make the list machine-friendly but which has the Newtonian
equal
                                                       ^^^^^^^^^
>
> Pun intended here too? <G>

Hehehe, well spotted.
No, that was an accidental one. Wish I could claim otherwise...

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2000\08\12@102334 by Chamberlain

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Tags? Yes very handy, I can see the category of the Email but the subject is
more important to me. I receive the digest daily and each evening I trawl
through it. Some Emails are mis-tagged but it does not matter I can see the
subject and open the ones that either interest me, I have a vague clue about
or want to read a reply. I have replied to some and it does make me slightly
doubtful about sending a reply in case I get it wrong. It has happened twice
now. The format does seemed constrained but we need something I would not
like title less Emails to Piclist wher you have to open each one to find
it's subject.
Now I have said that I see that once we have one of these threads it seems
to go on for a long time. It is a joy to find a return to genuine questions
and answers from people with PIC problems. That was the purpose of this list
wasn't it.

regards to all, Chris Chamberlain

Mis-tagged? who knows. The subject is correct!

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