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'[OT]: (Ray)Gun of light - One man's view on Window'
2001\10\26@221947 by Russell McMahon

picon face
And why would I be wanting to buy this "operating system".
People will be trying to convince YOU to buy it any day now.

C'mon you Linux guys - we want escape velocity SOON!
I hope never to be in a position to EVER have to buy/install this product
(or, presumably, any of its successors).(Sad really - DOS 5 was such a nice
product :-) ).



RM

___________________________________________


>> Windows XP - ray(gun) of light

It's here to save the world from the Blue Screen of Death (B-SOD to those
in the know) and may just have done that but you have to sell your soul to
get it to work. Windows XP launched yesterday (or today depending on where
in the world you stand) and along with its built-in firewall, multitude of
multimedia devices and Windows 2000-esque stability it also allows you, the
user, to send a snapshot of your PC's profile to Microsoft for safekeeping.
That way, if you try to flog off your operating system to a friend, they
can tell if it's being reinstalled on the same machine or not.

Oh, and of course they have a great profile of everyone's hardware.
Everyone everywhere. But they won't be using that for marketing at all. No
sirree bob.

Microsoft's next move, .Net, will see even more of this going on. The
software giant has seen the writing on the wall and is moving, along with
ever other IT company, it seems, to become a "services" company. Quite what
that really means is beyond me, but it seems to involve more money changing
hands on a regular basis.

Unfortunately, Microsoft's .Net plan has Passport at its heart and this is
where all sane folk should throw their hands up in horror.

Passport is Microsoft's way of getting you to put all your information in
one handy place -- a single log-on for all Microsoft services. Great, you
say, I hate typing in all my information over and over again. I agree with
you. My PC knows who I am, I've logged on, why on earth does a site that
I've been to before need to have all the same information loaded on to it
again and again?

But think about it for a moment -- Microsoft will have all your demographic
information. All of it. Every time you log on to your own software
Microsoft will know. Every time you use someone else's software or surf the
net or buy something, Big Bill will be told. Microsoft, it must be
remembered, isn't so much a software company as a marketing company, and
that information isn't going to be governed by New Zealand's
privacy-friendly laws, it will be held in the US where it's perfectly
acceptable to take someone's details for one purpose (like taking your
phone number or email address for helpdesk enquiries) and then sell it to
someone else for whatever they want.

I'm sure Microsoft will deny this, or rather explain their point of view on
it all, but frankly I don't want my demography stored in such a manner. (By
the way, Sun et al are involved with another project along the same lines,
Liberty.) Microsoft hardly has the best track record when it comes to
security of any type but worse than that, they seem to view such
information as theirs to do with as they like.

This will be a slippery slope - today registering your software, tomorrow
having to use Passport to log on to certain software packages, like
Microsoft Money or Instant Messaging, the day after having to log on to
Passport just to use your PC. The time to stop it is now. Just say no.

Microsoft rejects Austrian 'Big Brother' nomination
IDGNet
http://www.idg.net.nz/webhome.nsf/nl/13665831827491F1CC256AF0000A1282

Activation, anyone?
IDGNet
http://www.idg.net.nz/webhome.nsf/nl/EF463DE0D54F6C74CC256AE6007234D1

Commission plans no action over Passport
IDGNet
http://www.idg.net.nz/webhome.nsf/nl/7C8C9FA615DE3B39CC256AE8007E3017

A passport to no online privacy?
IDGNet
http://www.idg.net.nz/webhome.nsf/nl/984F6A2DD9A8E38DCC256AD200813C6A

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Here's a bit more

ZDNET HITS & HYPE NEWSLETTER
================================================|
The week in reviews
A quick glance at the latest products to pass through ZDNet Labs.

Windows XP. Maybe you've heard of it?
With the launch of what was arguably the most-hyped
operating system launch of all time, ZDNet Reviews
added to its already extensive XP coverage with a
review of Microsoft Plus! for Windows XP (short version:
Plus! doesn't add much value), and a look at some of the
best XP-compatible products on the market. Plus, tell
us in Talkback who you think is the bigger sellout:
Madonna for selling Microsoft the rights to Ray of Light,
or Sting for giving an XP-sponsored concert in New York.
Our vote? At least Sting could make the argument that
he was supporting New York City in a time of need.

Read full story:
http://cgi.zdnet.com/slink?156089:4660080


PRODUCTS IN TODAY'S COLUMN
======================================================|
Windows XP
Windows XP is more than just a pretty face.
This top-to-bottom overhaul of the Windows
operating system has something for everyone
from families to business users.

Read review:
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Latest prices:
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Plus! for Windows XP
Why pay for a collection of second-rate audio
add-ons and desktop decorations when you can find
better junk for free on the Web? Skip Plus, unless you're
looking for a silly holiday gift for a tech newbie.

Read Review:
http://cgi.zdnet.com/slink?156092:4660080
Latest Prices:
http://cgi.zdnet.com/slink?156093:4660080

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2001\10\27@012726 by Dale Botkin

flavicon
face
> And why would I be wanting to buy this "operating system".
> People will be trying to convince YOU to buy it any day now.

I think Microsoft is watching AOL rake in $20 a month from a few tens of
millions of people, and they're wishing they had THAT revenue stream too.
I think it's only a matter of time and release numbers before we see a
monthly subscription OS.  You want to be able to print that document you
wrote last week?  Better make sure you paid the Microsoft bill, or your OS
will expire...  or Office, or your printer drivers, or something.

> C'mon you Linux guys - we want escape velocity SOON!

Have you tried a recent release on modern hardware?  I was shocked at how
nice it has become.  I'm mostly a comand-line kind of guy with *NIX
operating systems, but I think a new distro with KDE is getting good
enough even my kids would use it.  It's just a matter of getting more
applicaiton support - I use NT and 98 now because I need Quicken and want
Flight Simulator.  And no, I won't switch to something else to replace
those two and a half dozen others -- Office is not included in that pile
though.  I'll abandon Office for the K* stuff (not that bloated sluggish
pig StarOffice, thanks) with gusto, as soon as it can *save* documents in
M$ format as well as read 'em.

> I hope never to be in a position to EVER have to buy/install this product
> (or, presumably, any of its successors).(Sad really - DOS 5 was such a nice
> product :-) ).

I've put the wife & kids on notice that Win2K, to which I will upgrade the
NT machine, will be the last M$ operating system we use.  XP is completely
out of the question, they've finally crossed the line.

Dale

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2001\10\27@043810 by Kathy Quinlan

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I agree Dale, I will not move past Win2k !!!!!!!!!! If protel 99 would run
under Unix (funny how altium (used to be called protel) has stopped ringing
me about upgrades when I told them no Unix version, no sale). If anyone has
gotten Protel to work under FreeBSD or a Linux distro, please tell me and
then I can dump WINBLOWS for GOOD.

Regards,

Kat.

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2001\10\27@050720 by James Caska

picon face
Just to spice this up ;-)

Millions of people all around the world, supporting even more millions of
families make a living developing and or using products that run on Windows.

I really don't understand why people are so upset paying a few hundred ok
maybe even thousand dollars for a product that has probably required
hundreds of thousands of man years to create and forms the basis quite often
of their own incomes yet fork out happily tens of thousands for an
automobile which takes them to and from work. Most of you have probably
spent more on petrol in a year than the software you use to make a living.

To temper it a little I agree XP is going to stuggle for a while mostly
because Windows 2000 is really a very good product and people will need a
genuine reason to move on however I also agree with this AOL comparison, it
can work. AOL customers happily use the internet as a service and pay for it
as a service, why not software?

As for Linux, well I think it was born well of the seed of talented
individuals formed on the basis of the 80/20 rule. That is for 20% of the
effort you get an 80% product which is exactly what linux is but it takes
CASH to invest that extra 80% of effort required to get a 100% product so
don't be fooled because linux is a LONG way from being that 100% product
equivalent to that put out by microsoft or sun.

Just in case you think I am a microsoft junkie, well I have just spent the
last 2 years committing my entire product line to java but the point is very
simple and should not be lost.

You should always use the best tools for the job and stop getting carried
away with distracting ideology.

James Caska
caskaspamKILLspamvirtualbreadboard.com
ujVM - 'The worlds smallest java virtual machine'

{Original Message removed}

2001\10\27@080138 by Russell McMahon

picon face
> Just to spice this up ;-)
>
> Millions of people all around the world, supporting even more millions of
> families make a living developing and or using products that run on
Windows.
>
> I really don't understand why people are so upset paying a few hundred ok
> maybe even thousand dollars for a product that has probably required
> hundreds of thousands of man years to create and forms the basis quite
often
> of their own incomes yet fork out happily tens of thousands for an
> automobile which takes them to and from work. Most of you have probably
> spent more on petrol in a year than the software you use to make a living.
>
> To temper it a little I agree XP is going to stuggle for a while mostly
> because Windows 2000 is really a very good product and people will need a
> genuine reason to move on however I also agree with this AOL comparison,
it
> can work. AOL customers happily use the internet as a service and pay for
it
> as a service, why not software?

I have the latest XP pricelist here.
Prices are in $NZ.
$NZ1 = approx $US0.45
These are the retail prices here

Home edition  full              $531
  upgrade                          $275
Professional version full   $788
  upgrade                          $530

An entry level Windows desktop PC with 20 GB HDD, 128 MB RAM, CD, Modem, 800
MHZ CPU, monitor, WIN98 costs about $NZ1200 here.
This is an operating system!
Any OS that costs 44% of the system hardware cost for a cutdown version and
65% for a non-crippled version had better have some real advantages.

How long until the next upgrade is "needed"?

Petrol in a car is not a very fair comparison as the usage model varies
substantially.
It's hard to think of a really good parallel model.

Points possibly worth noting include -

- a new model will be brought out shortly, subtle changes will be made that
compel you to follow the herd,
because the new models will only be (reasonably) backward compatible but
will be designed to ensure that old models are not forward compatible.
"Perfectly good" software will not STAY "perfectly good" because new
improved features in other software will ensure it. Effectively linking the
way that the internet appears to your system is part of ensuring that this
happens.

- While hardware prices are plummeting the price of this product is
increasing substantially and you are compelled to buy new product regularly
Fair profit is a core tenet of the capitalist system but a product which
produces the "richest man in the world" leads one to examine the fairness of
the profit more closely than otherwise.

- the product contains "features" whose exact intentions are uncertain but
which are designed to interact with your computer and your software to the
advantage of the seller.

- The vendor "accidentally" (until it is pointed out) includes the most
draconian terms imaginable in the software licence which must be signed to
use the product. The remaining terms are liable to make interesting reading
to the majority who never read them.

Now if someone GAVE me a copy I might well be swayed ....

> As for Linux, well I think it was born well of the seed of talented
> individuals formed on the basis of the 80/20 rule. That is for 20% of the
> effort you get an 80% product which is exactly what linux is but it takes
> CASH to invest that extra 80% of effort required to get a 100% product so
> don't be fooled because linux is a LONG way from being that 100% product
> equivalent to that put out by microsoft or sun.

Windows is good but 100% is a pretty bold claim.

> You should always use the best tools for the job

Suitable tools, yes.
Best tools, maybe not.
Possibly not if there is a quantum leap in cost of the tool compared to
alternatives and the alternatives do a very good job.
Possibly not if the tool does strange things whose purpose is unknown to you
or compells you to do certain things for the benefit of the toolmaker.
Possibly not if by buying the tool you see that you are helping destroy
others who have some hope of producing a more cost effective tool in future.
(The friend of my friend is my enemy ? :-) )

> and stop getting carried
> away with distracting ideology.

Maybe you meant " ... and avoid getting carried away ..."

In which case I'd agree.
Im NOT an anti Microsoft idealogue (or haven't been so far) but I am fearful
of where their latest push is trying to take us all.
I am not (easily) going to buy into a system whose price obeys Moore's law
:-)


           RM

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2001\10\27@092254 by Dale Botkin

flavicon
face
Have you tried WINE?  I hear it's very good now, though I have not tried
it recently.

Dale
--
Hallo, this is Linus Torvalds and I pronounce Linux as Leennuks.
Hallo, this is Bill Gates and I pronounce 'crap' as 'Windows'.

On Sat, 27 Oct 2001, Kathy Quinlan wrote:

> I agree Dale, I will not move past Win2k !!!!!!!!!! If protel 99 would run
> under Unix (funny how altium (used to be called protel) has stopped ringing
> me about upgrades when I told them no Unix version, no sale). If anyone has
> gotten Protel to work under FreeBSD or a Linux distro, please tell me and
> then I can dump WINBLOWS for GOOD.

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2001\10\27@100923 by Dale Botkin

flavicon
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On Sat, 27 Oct 2001, James Caska wrote:

> I really don't understand why people are so upset paying a few hundred
> ok maybe even thousand dollars for a product that has probably
> required hundreds of thousands of man years to create and forms the
> basis quite often of their own incomes yet fork out happily tens of
> thousands for an automobile which takes them to and from work. Most of
> you have probably spent more on petrol in a year than the software you
> use to make a living.
>
> To temper it a little I agree XP is going to stuggle for a while
> mostly because Windows 2000 is really a very good product and people
> will need a genuine reason to move on however I also agree with this
> AOL comparison, it can work. AOL customers happily use the internet as
> a service and pay for it as a service, why not software?

Because AOL has ongoing monthly costs associated with providing you with
Internet access and content; Microsoft does not.  If I use no Microsoft
product or service other than the OS, why should I be subsidizing their
ISP operation?  Or their other ventures?  And don't trot out that argument
about all the poor coders slaving over the next version.  If the next
version is worth buying, I'll buy it, THEN they make money on that
version.  Why should my fees for this version pay to develop the next --
which I must then also buy?  And if it's a subscription type of model, who
says I want to be a perpetual beta tester for whatever bug-of-the-month
they come up with?

> As for Linux, well I think it was born well of the seed of talented
> individuals formed on the basis of the 80/20 rule. That is for 20% of
> the effort you get an 80% product which is exactly what linux is but
> it takes CASH to invest that extra 80% of effort required to get a
> 100% product so don't be fooled because linux is a LONG way from being
> that 100% product equivalent to that put out by microsoft or sun.

The sort of CASH which companies like IBM, RedHat, SGI and many, many
others are and have been expending.

> You should always use the best tools for the job and stop getting
> carried away with distracting ideology.

This is not just blind anti-Microsoft ideology.  In my case at least, it's
a specific set of disagreements with specific features, policies and
methods that Microsoft seems bent on deploying, customers be damned.
Personally I like Windows for daily desktop use.  Some of the things I
disagree with are Microsoft's increasing demands to incorporate behavior
control and cash extraction techniques as supposed "features" of the OS.
The XP licensing crap, for example -- if I decide to shuffle hardware on a
weekly business, it's my business.  I know it's not here yet, but write
this down -- eventually Microsoft will want you to pay a monthly or annual
fee to keep your OS functioning, whether you upgrade or not.  Microsoft
wants you to view your computer in the same light as your TV set or your
phone - merely an appliance you use to view or receive content and
services, for which privilege you pay (only) Microsoft a monthly fee
based on how much you use it.

Needless to say, I strongly disagree with this model.

Dale

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2001\10\27@123740 by Chris Carr

flavicon
face
>
> Needless to say, I strongly disagree with this model.
>
I take it you are not a customer of Oracle then Dale ;-)

Like it or not William Gates III will adopt the subscription model
as Larry Elison has shown this model to be better at money generation.
Microsoft always "innovates" by using other peoples better ideas.


Regards

Chris Carr

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2001\10\27@124401 by Ned Konz

flavicon
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On Saturday 27 October 2001 08:14 am, Chris Carr wrote:
> > Needless to say, I strongly disagree with this model.
>
> I take it you are not a customer of Oracle then Dale ;-)
>
> Like it or not William Gates III will adopt the subscription model
> as Larry Elison has shown this model to be better at money generation.
> Microsoft always "innovates" by using other peoples better ideas.

Wasn't this also the secret of L. Ron Hubbard's riches?

Of course, it hasn't yet occurred to Gates to make Microsoft tax-exempt...

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2001\10\27@133734 by Dale Botkin

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> > Needless to say, I strongly disagree with this model.
> >
> I take it you are not a customer of Oracle then Dale ;-)

I'm not, but my employer is.  Not that I'm a proponent of it, mind you.  I
have not looked at an Oracle license, but I know even Veritas licenses the
software in perpetuity.  It's the support that costs an exhorbitant amount
of money, and you have a choice on that part.

Dale

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2001\10\27@151240 by Bob Barr

picon face
Ned Konz wrote:
>
>Wasn't this also the secret of L. Ron Hubbard's riches?
>
>Of course, it hasn't yet occurred to Gates to make Microsoft tax-exempt...

>

It has undoubtedly occurred to them. Plans are certainly in the works. The only problem remaining seems to be how to draw the org chart. Bill apparently has a problem with having God appear above him in the chart.

Once they work out a suitable title for God (Supreme Vice President for All Creation??) and His proper place (under Bill), I'm sure that there will be a Church of Microsoft established shortly thereafter.

(This may bring a whole new meaning to "Blue Screen of Death".)

 

Half-joking regards, Bob

 

P.S. I mean no offense toward anyone's religion. The joking's directed toward Microsoft.



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2001\10\27@183416 by M. Adam Davis

flavicon
face
The text below is not completely correct (ie, MS has no specific
information on your hardware, but you can discover that for yourself
elsewhere), and .NET is the same as MS has been doing for years, only
more of it.

Pedantic stuff aside, I've been on the XP beta since April, and I'm not
going back to anything.  Not 2000, not 9x, not ME, etc.  XP is just so
much better.

There are dozens of reasons why, but I'll just say that the benefits
outweigh the authentication.

As an aside, you have to cheange three pieces of hardware in order to re
register your sw with MS, but the network card counts as two items
(since the MAC is universally unique).  Other items are video card, HD,
Processor.  Most companies selling winxp are going to be requiring that
you buy a network card with their machines so they have fewer customer
problems with upgrades.  These items are used to generate a fairly
unique mahcine identifier which is then sent to MS.  You cannot gain
info about the machine from this identifier, and that identifier is only
sent once when the machine is registered.  When it boots up and checks
the hardware it'll generate a new one if and only if two items change.
At that point it will require you to register again - which can be done
over the phone by explaining that you changed x, y, and z in your system.

No one likes the system, but unless another better OS comes along we're
stuck.  Don't get into the whole Linux thing - it's not an everyman OS.

As an aside, another company is going to make a linux distro that
installs with wine and looks like windows.  This is one area where we
could gain some inroads...

-Adam

Russell McMahon wrote:

{Quote hidden}

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2001\10\27@210925 by James Caska

picon face
Russell McMahon wrote:

>a new model will be brought out shortly, subtle changes will be made that
>compel you to follow the herd,

New motor vehicle models seem to come out fairly often also compelling us to
follow?

>Suitable tools, yes.
>Best tools, maybe not.
>Possibly not if there is a quantum leap in cost of the tool compared to
>alternatives and the alternatives do a very good job.
>Possibly not if the tool does strange things whose purpose is unknown to
you
>or compells you to do certain things for the benefit of the toolmaker.
>Possibly not if by buying the tool you see that you are helping destroy
>others who have some hope of producing a more cost effective tool in
future.
>(The friend of my friend is my enemy ? :-) )

This is by far the best point you have made. I agree with it totally.
However, the best way to generate competition is to be prepared to PAY for
software rather than to say all software should be free. The whole
opensource freeware concept must surely be a divine answer to Microsofts
prayers because in this environment small startups struggle to get cashflow
because people feel software should be free. Without cashflow, innovative
startups cannot hit critical mass. Microsoft wins by default.

Regards,
James Caska
RemoveMEcaskaspamTakeThisOuTvirtualbreadboard.com
ujVM - 'The worlds smallest java virtual machine'


{Original Message removed}

2001\10\29@135428 by Harold M Hallikainen

picon face
On Sat, 27 Oct 2001 09:07:56 -0500 Dale Botkin <daleEraseMEspam.....BOTKIN.ORG> writes:
> The XP licensing crap, for example -- if I decide to shuffle
> hardware on a
> weekly business, it's my business.

       This reminds me of something from the 1960's or so. You were required to
keep your draft card on you at all times. So a guy kept it on him in the
shower or bath. He had to contually request replacement cards because of
this. So, give it a try! Change your hardware weekly, then call Microsoft
weekly to reauthorize your new hardware.

Harold



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2001\10\31@125428 by Mik Juneau Kim

picon face
They can't make protel run on unix. It (protel crashes too often.

Kathy Quinlan wrote on 10/27/01 3:12 pm:

{Quote hidden}

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