Post by thread:[OT]: "a/an" in English

Matt Bennett <spam_OUTmjbTakeThisOuTHAZMAT.COM> wrote: >"Alexandre Domingos F. Souza" wrote: >> in a 8052 (another good question: In english, when you use the "a" >>before a number as it were consonant, or "an" as if it were a vowel?) >Oh, and about the a/an thing- it all depends on what the initial *sound* >is- if it is a vowel sound like 8502- 'an' is more proper, but a >consonant *sound* like 7400 would take an 'a'. Yes, the fact that the word following the article is a number has no bearing. As in Matt's example, 8/eight takes 'an', and 7/seven takes 'a'. Where it gets less clear is in American vs. British English, and leading 'H' may get dropped. In American, we would usually say "a hat", rather than "an 'at"! Dave Bell -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email .....listservKILLspam@spam@mitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

And it is also correct to refer to an historical event. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Bell" <dbellKILLspamTHEBELLS.NET> To: <.....PICLISTKILLspam.....MITVMA.MIT.EDU> Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2001 1:19 PM Subject: Re: [OT]: "a/an" in English {Quote hidden}> Matt Bennett <EraseMEmjbspam_OUTTakeThisOuTHAZMAT.COM> wrote: > > >"Alexandre Domingos F. Souza" wrote: > > >> in a 8052 (another good question: In english, when you use the "a" > >>before a number as it were consonant, or "an" as if it were a vowel?) > > >Oh, and about the a/an thing- it all depends on what the initial *sound* > >is- if it is a vowel sound like 8502- 'an' is more proper, but a > >consonant *sound* like 7400 would take an 'a'. > > Yes, the fact that the word following the article is a number has no > bearing. As in Matt's example, 8/eight takes 'an', and 7/seven takes 'a'. > Where it gets less clear is in American vs. British English, and leading > 'H' may get dropped. In American, we would usually say "a hat", rather > than "an 'at"! > > Dave Bell > > -- > http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! > email listservspam_OUTmitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body > > -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email @spam@listservKILLspammitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

Dave Bell wrote: > > Matt Bennett <KILLspammjbKILLspamHAZMAT.COM> wrote: > > >"Alexandre Domingos F. Souza" wrote: > > >> in a 8052 (another good question: In english, when you use the "a" > >>before a number as it were consonant, or "an" as if it were a vowel?) > > >Oh, and about the a/an thing- it all depends on what the initial *sound* > >is- if it is a vowel sound like 8502- 'an' is more proper, but a > >consonant *sound* like 7400 would take an 'a'. > > Yes, the fact that the word following the article is a number has no > bearing. As in Matt's example, 8/eight takes 'an', and 7/seven takes 'a'. > Where it gets less clear is in American vs. British English, and leading > 'H' may get dropped. In American, we would usually say "a hat", rather > than "an 'at"! > For acronyms you're "supposed" to always use 'an', but nobody actually does since it sounds bad for some acronyms. "A NASA report" vs. "An NASA report" "An NFL playoff game" "An NBA star" "A JPL sponsored project" "An IRS audit" "A UNAV3200 autopilot" (which, BTW, uses a PIC for servo control) "A PWM generator" "An A/D Converter" "A PIC microprocessor" -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email RemoveMElistservTakeThisOuTmitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

Actually its not that is sounds bad, it's that it is harder to say.... ...or maybe it does sound bad * because * it is harder to say. If you feel the position of your mouth during the transition between the A or AN and the following acronym (try A then AN with each acronym) , you will know what I mean. --- James Newton (PICList Admin #3) spamBeGonejamesnewtonspamBeGonepiclist.com 1-619-652-0593 PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com or .org {Original Message removed}

> For acronyms you're "supposed" to always use 'an', but nobody actually does > since it sounds bad for some acronyms. I'd never heard that - I figured it was always whether the first pronounced sound was a vowel or consonant, for instance: > "A NASA report" vs. "An NASA report" This is pronounced as one word, which starts with a consonant sound. You could say, "An N A S A report" (sounding out each letter), but the acronym is now used as one word. The N, if sounded as seperate letters, is pronounced "EN", since the N itself is really nothing without sounds before or after it. > "An NFL playoff game" This is pronounced letter by letter. The letter N is pronounced "EN", therefore one uses an. > "An NBA star" Again the N is pronounced "EN" > "A JPL sponsored project" The J is pronounced "JAE", starting with a consonant means you need to use the A. > "An IRS audit" We all sound each letter out, the I makes a vowel sound, but even if we pronounced it as one word (Which UK would get a kick out of, "Where'd the american's get their tax code?" "They pulled it out of their irs!") irs would still start with a vowel. > "A UNAV3200 autopilot" (which, BTW, uses a PIC for servo control) Whether you sound out the letters or pronounce it 'unav 32000', it always starts with a vowel. > "A PWM generator" The letters are pronounced seperately, P is pronounced "PEE" > "An A/D Converter" "AE to DEE" starts with A > "A PIC microprocessor" PIC is pronounced as one word ('cause we're all lazy), but even if each letter were sounded it would stil started with a consonant. -Adam -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email TakeThisOuTlistservEraseMEspam_OUTmitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

I wonder about this one. We would say, "I just finished a history lesson, it was an historic occasion. It was about a historic meeting between two people." I wonder if there are other H words which do weird things. It may be that historic lets the word after it choose the a/an... It could have something to do with being the subject/adjective, but neither of those fit up there. The last phrase could probably do as well with an an or an a. Several online english resources, but I haven't seen a mention of a/an anywhere... -Adam John Pfaff wrote: > > And it is also correct to refer to an historical event. > > {Original Message removed}

part 1 3670 bytes content-type:text/plain; charset=us-asciiExactly... a lesson, an occasion, a meeting. "history" is simply modifying the following word, and normal grammar being applied to a/an and vowel/consonant.... now if you could find me some MAX537's!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |--------+-----------------------> | | "M. Adam | | | Davis" | | | <adavis@UBASI| | | CS.COM> | | | | | | 01/10/01 | | | 05:31 PM | | | Please | | | respond to | | | pic | | | microcontroll| | | er discussion| | | list | | | | |--------+-----------------------> >----------------------------------------------------------------------------| | | | To: RemoveMEPICLISTTakeThisOuTMITVMA.MIT.EDU | | cc: (bcc: Scott Touchton/US/UNIPHASE) | | Subject: Re: [OT]: "a/an" in English | >----------------------------------------------------------------------------| I wonder about this one. We would say, "I just finished a history lesson, it was an historic occasion. It was about a historic meeting between two people." I wonder if there are other H words which do weird things. It may be that historic lets the word after it choose the a/an... It could have something to do with being the subject/adjective, but neither of those fit up there. The last phrase could probably do as well with an an or an a. Several online english resources, but I haven't seen a mention of a/an anywhere... -Adam John Pfaff wrote: > > And it is also correct to refer to an historical event. > > {Original Message removed} part 2 4168 bytes content-type:application/octet-stream; (decode) part 3 136 bytes -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email listservEraseME.....mitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

In a message dated 1/10/01 2:42:37 PM Pacific Standard Time, EraseMEScott.TouchtonUS.JDSUNIPHASE.COM writes: > now if you could find me some MAX537's!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! > Sheesh! These things aren't cheap! Checking my sources (teehee), they run about $20-50...dependant on package-style I guess. Avnet Marshall doesn't have any in stock. Nu Horizons want you to call. Can't you just use a substitute? Regards, Tim Hamel -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email RemoveMElistservEraseMEEraseMEmitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

Dave Bell wrote: > > Matt Bennett <RemoveMEmjbspam_OUTKILLspamHAZMAT.COM> wrote: > > >"Alexandre Domingos F. Souza" wrote: > > >> in a 8052 (another good question: In english, when you use the "a" > >>before a number as it were consonant, or "an" as if it were a vowel?) > > >Oh, and about the a/an thing- it all depends on what the initial *sound* > >is- if it is a vowel sound like 8502- 'an' is more proper, but a > >consonant *sound* like 7400 would take an 'a'. It gets even more complicated: A history book AN historical novel Three years ago my (then) 4th grade son got into trouble with his teacher over this. He disputed her when she said that the use of 'a' or 'an' was based on spelling rather than pronunciation. She embarrassed him in front of the class ... so he made a list of words that start with a consonant, but are preceded with an 'a', and read them to the class. BTW, she also pronounces jaguar as "jag wire". Does anybody know of an English word that starts with a vowel, but is pronounced as though it starts with a consonant? -Nick -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email RemoveMElistservTakeThisOuTspammitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

On Wed, 10 Jan 2001, Brandon Fosdick wrote: > For acronyms you're "supposed" to always use 'an', but nobody actually does > since it sounds bad for some acronyms. > > "A NASA report" vs. "An NASA report" If you pronounce the acronym as a word like "NASA", it's "A NASA report". If you spell out the acronym, it would be "An N-A-S-A report". So it still works; words that start with a vowel sound are preceded by "an", words that begin with a consonant sound are preceded by "a". I've never heard the rule of always using "an" for acronyms, but who knows what English departments are teaching now?? My last English course was just after rock formed and before the dinosaurs (1978). Dale --- The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not "Eureka!" (I found it!) but "That's funny ..." -- Isaac Asimov -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email EraseMElistservspamspamBeGonemitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

Nick Taylor wrote: > Does anybody know of an English word that starts with a vowel, but > is pronounced as though it starts with a consonant? opossum I've never understood why its spelled like that, but my dogs love to eat them anyway. -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email RemoveMElistservKILLspammitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

> Nick Taylor wrote: > Does anybody know of an English word that starts with a vowel, but > is pronounced as though it starts with a consonant? Adam Davis has given a clear explanation of the logic behind using 'a' or 'an' before words. It is the pronunciation that matters, not necessarily the first letter. Given below are some examples: "A university" The first letter is a vowel. But when you pronounce "university", the word begins with the sound of the letter 'y'. Hence the use of 'a' instead of 'an'. "An honorary surgeon" Here, the first letter in the word 'honorary' is silent and the beginning sound is that of the letter 'o'. So 'an' is used. "A one-word answer" This is like the first example. The first letter in "one" is a vowel, but the beginning sound is that of the letter 'w'. I have been a Piclister for the past 4 months and I think this is the first time, a lot of discussion under [OT] is focussed on English grammar! Bala -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList piclist-unsubscribe-requestSTOPspamspam_OUTmitvma.mit.edu

> Nick Taylor wrote: > > Does anybody know of an English word that starts with a vowel, > > but is pronounced as though it starts with a consonant? > > opossum And some words such as "newt" and "orange" were originally spelled as "ewt" and "narange", so "an ewt", or "a narange". ("nar..." was changed to "or..." as an association with the golden colour) -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList spamBeGonepiclist-unsubscribe-requestSTOPspamEraseMEmitvma.mit.edu

{Quote hidden}> -----Original Message----- > From: Dave Bell [SMTP:EraseMEdbellEraseMETHEBELLS.NET] > Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2001 6:19 PM > To: @spam@PICLIST@spam@spam_OUTMITVMA.MIT.EDU > Subject: Re: [OT]: "a/an" in English > > Matt Bennett <spamBeGonemjbKILLspamHAZMAT.COM> wrote: > > >"Alexandre Domingos F. Souza" wrote: > > >> in a 8052 (another good question: In english, when you use the "a" > >>before a number as it were consonant, or "an" as if it were a vowel?) > > >Oh, and about the a/an thing- it all depends on what the initial *sound* > >is- if it is a vowel sound like 8502- 'an' is more proper, but a > >consonant *sound* like 7400 would take an 'a'. > > Yes, the fact that the word following the article is a number has no > bearing. As in Matt's example, 8/eight takes 'an', and 7/seven takes 'a'. > Where it gets less clear is in American vs. British English, and leading > 'H' may get dropped. In American, we would usually say "a hat", rather > than "an 'at"! > > Dave Bell > Sounds like you are thinking of a stereotyped cockney accent !! We don't all speak like that you know...jolly bad show old man. :o) Mike -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList .....piclist-unsubscribe-requestspam_OUTmitvma.mit.edu

>I wonder about this one. We would say, "I just finished a history lesson, >it was an historic occasion. It was about a historic meeting between two >people." > >I wonder if there are other H words which do weird things. It may be that >historic lets the word after it choose the a/an... It could have >something to do with being the subject/adjective, but neither of those fit >up there. The last phrase could probably do as well with an an or an a. > >Several online english resources, but I haven't seen a mention of a/an >anywhere... Haven't been following this thread - what fun you guys are having. Historic is an exception because it is said differently on purpose! - why is less obvious. The clearly proper (someone will disagree :-) ) construct is "a historic occason" and this almost actually sounds OK and some people WOULD say it that way. It's said "an historic... " because it has become practice to say it that way. Another such example is "hotel". Properly this should be a hotel but in actual \use once says "an hotel". "We all went to an hotel for a gin and tonic". This screams of wrongness but is technically how it should be said. Possibly because the h is somewhat silent - not quite 'otel but not a full h always either. Russell McMahon _____________________________ What can one man* do? Donate food daily free !!! - http://www.thehungersite.com/ Donate Vitamin A! http://www.thechildsurvivalsite.com/ http://www.rawa.com - one perspective on Afghanistan http://www.changingourworld.com http://www.easttimor.com http://www.sudan.com (* - or woman, child or internet enabled intelligent entity :-)) -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList TakeThisOuTpiclist-unsubscribe-requestspammitvma.mit.edu

Accordin to my Oxford english dictionary (i.e. english tself!) an : used before a vowel sound, e.g. "an egg", "an hour". Also used before a consonant in an unstressed syllable, e.g. "an historic novel", "an hypothesis" That seems to make sense to me, and would explain why "a history lesson" is preceeded with "a" because "history" is the important bit if you like, not "lesson" regards, Kevin -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList piclist-unsubscribe-requestEraseMEmitvma.mit.edu

part 1 2035 bytes content-type:text/plain; charset=us-asciiTim, I'd love to use a substitute (is there something out there pin for pin compatible???), but the copper has already been rolled and the CM house is looking for parts.... kind of one of those things I adopted. Thanks for the response and if you or any of the other PICLIST'ers can find some somewhere in some little corner of a lab in some little bin in some little box please let me know. Thanks, Scott |--------+-----------------------> | | Tim Hamel | | | <TekPhobia@AO| | | L.COM> | | | | | | 01/10/01 | | | 06:44 PM | | | Please | | | respond to | | | pic | | | microcontroll| | | er discussion| | | list | | | | |--------+-----------------------> >----------------------------------------------------------------------------| | | | To: RemoveMEPICLISTEraseMEspam_OUTMITVMA.MIT.EDU | | cc: (bcc: Scott Touchton/US/UNIPHASE) | | Subject: Re: [OT]: "a/an" in English | >----------------------------------------------------------------------------| In a message dated 1/10/01 2:42:37 PM Pacific Standard Time, @spam@Scott.TouchtonRemoveMEEraseMEUS.JDSUNIPHASE.COM writes: > now if you could find me some MAX537's!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! > Sheesh! These things aren't cheap! Checking my sources (teehee), they run about $20-50...dependant on package-style I guess. Avnet Marshall doesn't have any in stock. Nu Horizons want you to call. Can't you just use a substitute? Regards, Tim Hamel -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email EraseMElistserv@spam@mitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body part 2 2347 bytes content-type:application/octet-stream; (decode) part 3 105 bytes -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList @spam@piclist-unsubscribe-requestspam_OUT.....mitvma.mit.edu

> Accordin to my Oxford english dictionary (i.e. english tself!) > > an : used before a vowel sound, e.g. "an egg", "an hour". Also used before a > consonant in an unstressed syllable, e.g. "an historic novel", "an > hypothesis" > > That seems to make sense to me, and would explain why "a history lesson" is > preceeded with "a" because "history" is the important bit if you like, not > "lesson" > > regards, Kevin > > -- That's syllable, not word. HIStory hisTORic Roger Kadau -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList spamBeGonepiclist-unsubscribe-requestEraseMEmitvma.mit.edu

Russell wrote: >Another such example is "hotel". >Properly this should be a hotel but in actual \use once says "an hotel". > > "We all went to an hotel for a gin and tonic". > >This screams of wrongness... Quite correct. It should be "We all went to an hotel for several gin and tonics". -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList piclist-unsubscribe-requestspamBeGonemitvma.mit.edu

... or "We all went to several hotels for several gins and tonic" ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Messenger" <.....krist@spam@EraseMETHEGRID.NET> To: <.....PICLISTRemoveMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU> Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2001 11:42 AM Subject: Re: [OT]: "a/an" in English {Quote hidden}> Russell wrote: > >Another such example is "hotel". > >Properly this should be a hotel but in actual \use once says "an hotel". > > > > "We all went to an hotel for a gin and tonic". > > > >This screams of wrongness... > > Quite correct. It should be > > "We all went to an hotel for several gin and tonics". > > -- > http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList > .....piclist-unsubscribe-requestSTOPspam@spam@mitvma.mit.edu > > -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList piclist-unsubscribe-requestEraseME@spam@mitvma.mit.edu

At 11:18 AM 1/11/01 -0800, rich+piclistspam_OUT@spam@LCLOGIC.COM wrote: > > Does anybody know of an English word that starts with a vowel, but > > is pronounced as though it starts with a consonant? >opossum Goes both ways around here. 'Possum and O-Possum. Isn't english grand? -- Where's dave? http://www.findu.com/cgi-bin/find.cgi?kc6ete-9 -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList spamBeGonepiclist-unsubscribe-request@spam@mitvma.mit.edu