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'[OT]:: Depression cure within hours'
2007\01\22@201834 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
May be 'old hat' but if not AJT wants to know about this.
Waverley, Krispy, Dr Don too.

The an[a]esthetic Ketamine [[aka party drug Special-K]] appears to
alleviate severe depression within hours rather than the weeks to
months that most antidepressants take.

This is believed to be because traditional antidepressants act on the
early stages of a multi-stage process, and it takes weeks for the
effects to "ripple down" the chemical chain to produce the end effect,
whereas ketamine is believed to act on the end stage of the process by
directly blocking an NMDA receptor in the brain.

Papers on this subject have been around since about 2000!!! but seem
to have surfaced again recently, probably as a result of positive
results in trials.

www.google.co.nz/search?hl=en&q=ketamine+depression&meta=
http://www.nimh.nih.gov/press/ketamine.cfm
www.clinicaltrials.gov/ct/show/NCT00088699
www.forbes.com/forbeslife/health/feeds/hscout/2006/08/07/hscout534229.html
www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn9696&feedId=online-news_rss20
http://www.biopsychiatry.com/ketaminedep.htm
www.newscientist.com/channel/health/mg19325876.600-tackling-depression-with-ketamine.html
http://www.boston.com/yourlife/health/mental/articles/2006/08/08/drug_may_quickly_lift_depression_study_says/



_______________


Ketamine, an anesthetic also used illegally as the club drug Special
K, has the power to lift stubborn depression within hours, instead of
the weeks it typically takes prescription antidepressants to kick in,
a new federal study suggested yesterday.

______________

   http://www.nimh.nih.gov/press/ketamine.cfm
Ketamine blocks a brain protein called the N-methyl-D-aspartic acid
(NMDA) receptor. Previous studies have shown that agents that block
the NMDA receptor reduce depression-like behaviors in animals.

NMDA receptors are critical for receiving the signals of glutamate, a
brain chemical that enhances the electrical flow among brain cells
that is required for normal function. Studies indicate that
dysregulation in glutamate could be among the culprits in depression.
Using ketamine to block glutamate's actions on the NMDA receptor
appears to improve function of another brain receptor — the AMPA
receptor — that also helps regulate brain cells' electrical flow.

Scientists think the reason current antidepressant medications take
weeks to work is that they act on targets close to the beginning of a
series of biochemical reactions that regulate mood. The medications'
effects then have to trickle down through the rest of the reactions,
which takes time. Scientists theorize that ketamine skips much of this
route because its target, the NMDA receptor, is closer to the end of
the series of reactions in question.

"This may be a key to developing medications that eliminate the weeks
or months patients have to wait for antidepressant treatments to kick
in," said lead researcher Carlos A. Zarate Jr., of the NIMH Mood and
Anxiety Disorders Program.




2007\01\22@211807 by D. Jay Newman

flavicon
face
> May be 'old hat' but if not AJT wants to know about this.
> Waverley, Krispy, Dr Don too.
>
> The an[a]esthetic Ketamine [[aka party drug Special-K]] appears to
> alleviate severe depression within hours rather than the weeks to
> months that most antidepressants take.

I could use something like this also (inherited depression from *both*
sides of the family tree -- suicide is the number one killer in the last
three generations).

Unfortunately since it is a "party" drug, that makes it *very* difficult
to get legally in the US. And I'm not about to try for an illegal version;
not only could I get into deep sh*t, I worry enough about the quality of
*legal* drugs. :(
--
D. Jay Newman           ! Author of: _Linux Robotics: Building Smarter Robots_
                       !
spam_OUTjayTakeThisOuTspamsprucegrove.com     ! "Those who would give up essential liberty to
                       ! purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither
http://enerd.ws/robots  ! liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin

2007\01\22@223205 by James Newtons Massmind

face picon face
> > May be 'old hat' but if not AJT wants to know about this.
> > Waverley, Krispy, Dr Don too.
> >
> > The an[a]esthetic Ketamine [[aka party drug Special-K]] appears to
> > alleviate severe depression within hours rather than the weeks to
> > months that most antidepressants take.
>
> I could use something like this also (inherited depression
> from *both* sides of the family tree -- suicide is the number
> one killer in the last three generations).

Mild depression runs in my family. The men are all grouchy when they get
old. I took Zoloft for a while, but decided that I could make myself happy
just by concentrating on it. For my mild issues, it works most of the time.
Actually, it was a Calvin & Hobbs that changed my mind. Calvin is "under a
cloud" and his mom tells him to just smile even if he doesn't feel like it
and it will make him happy. He pastes on this terrible rectus of a death
grin and starts into this rant about how there is no way that is going to
make him feel better, then a bit later, stops and says "Darn, it worked" and
skips away. I tried it. As someone else on this list said years ago, just
saying "I'm so happy" over and over can improve ones mood a bit.

> Unfortunately since it is a "party" drug, that makes it
> *very* difficult to get legally in the US. And I'm not about
> to try for an illegal version; not only could I get into deep
> sh*t, I worry enough about the quality of
> *legal* drugs. :(

Not to mention the anguish of supporting the drug corporations. (No, I'm not
complaining about corporations, just about my potential dependence on any
entity whose sole (soul) goal is the making of a profit.)

Depression may also be a sign of intelligence. Anyone smart enough to
understand what is really going on is sure to be depressed. Ignorance is
bliss. It may be that the brain cells I killed when I was drinking are
responsible for my relative happiness today. If only drinking didn't make me
such an ass while the alcohol was picking off IQ points. Coming up on 12
years, clean and sober.

...grant me the serenity to accept the things I can not change, the courage
to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.

I'm so happy!
I'm so happy!
I'm so happy!
I'm so happy!
I'm so happy!
I'm so happy!
I'm so happy!
I'm so happy!
I'm so happy!
I'm so happy!
I'm so happy!
I'm so happy!
I'm so happy!
I'm so happy!
I'm so happy!
I'm so happy!
I'm so happy!
I'm so happy!
I'm so happy!
I'm so happy!
I'm so happy!
I'm so happy!
...

---
James.


2007\01\22@231346 by D. Jay Newman

flavicon
face
> > I could use something like this also (inherited depression
> > from *both* sides of the family tree -- suicide is the number
> > one killer in the last three generations).
>
> Mild depression runs in my family. The men are all grouchy when they get
> old. I took Zoloft for a while, but decided that I could make myself happy

The trouble is that depression is not just unhappiness.

It is more the feeling of being surrounded by a dark cloud that stands
between me and the world. At least that is one of my types of depression.
The other type is much worse.

Zoloft barely keeps me sane.

> just by concentrating on it. For my mild issues, it works most of the time.

Concentrating on being happy works when I'm just feeling blue. When
depression hits I either have to wait it out (months), find a long and
intense adrenaline rush, or use drugs.

> skips away. I tried it. As someone else on this list said years ago, just
> saying "I'm so happy" over and over can improve ones mood a bit.

Yes, sometimes this works.
--
D. Jay Newman           ! Author of: _Linux Robotics: Building Smarter Robots_
                       !
.....jayKILLspamspam@spam@sprucegrove.com     ! "Those who would give up essential liberty to
                       ! purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither
http://enerd.ws/robots  ! liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin

2007\01\23@064551 by Dennis Crawley
picon face
James Newtons Massmind wrote:
> I'm so happy!
> I'm so happy!
> I'm so happy!
> I'm so happy!
> I'm so happy!
> James.

Copy and Paste, is cheating! :P
Remember to synchronize the hand with the brain when you are writing down.
:)
"Repetitio mater studiorum est"
Dennis.

ps: Also synchronize the brain with what you are doing now is very Healthy.
"Age quod agis"
Those are very old anti-depressive techniques, believe me.





2007\01\23@070632 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
D. Jay Newman wrote:

>> just by concentrating on it. For my mild issues, it works most of the
>> time.
>
> Concentrating on being happy works when I'm just feeling blue. When
> depression hits I either have to wait it out (months), find a long and
> intense adrenaline rush, or use drugs.

Not sure I know the difference between feeling blue and being depressed.
But a lot of the times, (mental) images like of these guys who happily ride
along in their wheelchairs (here sometimes improvised wheelchairs of the
kind that is a plywood piece on four skimpy furniture wheels) help a lot.

Gerhard

2007\01\23@121510 by James Newtons Massmind

face picon face
> But a lot of the times, (mental) images like of these guys
> who happily ride along in their wheelchairs (here sometimes
> improvised wheelchairs of the kind that is a plywood piece on
> four skimpy furniture wheels) help a lot.

I look at pictures of Disabled American Veterans. The people with one leg
blown off or a face burned beyond recognition but still smiling (as best
they can) and raising a family. There, but for the grace of... Something...
Go I. Although I doubt I could pull off the smile.

The problem is that I forget to look at those pictures when I'm in the
middle of my own angst. Developing the habit of reminding myself to be happy
and grateful when I am totally rapped up in what is wrong with me has proven
elusive.

Another one is trying not to hear my father telling me (in his best
engineering voice) how he would improve the project I just proudly presented
to him. What I HAVE been able to change is when my kids show me something, I
just tell them what I like about it. I never point out improvements or
flaws. Only if they ask, will I offer advice.

Anyway...

---
James.


2007\01\23@124455 by James Newtons Massmind

face picon face
> The trouble is that depression is not just unhappiness.
>
> It is more the feeling of being surrounded by a dark cloud
> that stands between me and the world. At least that is one of
> my types of depression.
> The other type is much worse.

I do know some people who suffer from stronger depressions than I, and I
certainly agree that "mind tricks" are not enough for them.

> Zoloft barely keeps me sane.

A co-worker of mine recently switched to errr.... Celexia? I'm probably
spelling that wrong. And the difference in her demeanor was amazing.

> > just by concentrating on it. For my mild issues, it works
> most of the time.
>
> Concentrating on being happy works when I'm just feeling
> blue. When depression hits I either have to wait it out
> (months), find a long and intense adrenaline rush, or use drugs.

Adrenaline rushes help? Like.... Race cars? BASE jumping? Roller coasters?
Kinky sex?

I think there is a long term need for excitement (not stress) in humans that
is not met in civilized society. We spend too much time trying to be calm in
the face of annoyance and steady grinding rather than resting and playing in
between moments of pure terror while risking it all. Our bodies and brain
chemistry have not evolved fast enough to work correctly in the new world.
Just my theory.

---
James.


2007\01\23@134358 by David VanHorn

picon face
>
>
>
> I think there is a long term need for excitement (not stress) in humans
> that
> is not met in civilized society. We spend too much time trying to be calm
> in
> the face of annoyance and steady grinding rather than resting and playing
> in
> between moments of pure terror while risking it all. Our bodies and brain
> chemistry have not evolved fast enough to work correctly in the new world.
> Just my theory.


There's a definition of stress that has something to do with not bashing the
@#!$% out of things that need bashing..

A dear friend of mine just broke loose from being rather suicidal for over a
year.
She was on Prozac, but a change to Cymbalta has made all the difference in
the world.
Scary as it is, sometimes you have to try something different.

2007\01\23@135603 by Andre Abelian

flavicon
face
After drug dosage went a way you will be worst then before.
Today's doctors are dumb and stupid do not know any thing.
When was last time you did exercise ? or learn more about
what food to eat or do not eat. I am sure if you

1. eat right
2. sleep on time
3. exercise
4. do meditation some times
5. spend your time with right people

you are not going to have any Depression problem and you
will have more hair.


Andre




{Original Message removed}

2007\01\23@141608 by D. Jay Newman

flavicon
face
> > Zoloft barely keeps me sane.
>
> A co-worker of mine recently switched to errr.... Celexia? I'm probably
> spelling that wrong. And the difference in her demeanor was amazing.

If your co-worked can handle Celexia (I am not sure of the spelling also)
she should be able to get Lexapro (the same active ingredient without
one of the impurities). Our insurance vascilates on this though.

> > Concentrating on being happy works when I'm just feeling
> > blue. When depression hits I either have to wait it out
> > (months), find a long and intense adrenaline rush, or use drugs.
>
> Adrenaline rushes help? Like.... Race cars? BASE jumping? Roller coasters?
> Kinky sex?

The trouble is that when depressed most of these things are too much
trouble. Roller coasters I have no control over, I've never been into
racing cars, and I refuse to jump out of a perfectly working airplane.

I know that being shot at helps.

Unfortunately since depression kills (or at least wounds) the sex drive,
I've never been able to try kinky sex. Also, much as I hate to say it,
I'm not very attractive when depressed. :(

> I think there is a long term need for excitement (not stress) in humans that
> is not met in civilized society. We spend too much time trying to be calm in
> the face of annoyance and steady grinding rather than resting and playing in
> between moments of pure terror while risking it all. Our bodies and brain
> chemistry have not evolved fast enough to work correctly in the new world.
> Just my theory.

James, I think that you're onto something here. Of course, the aftermath
of an adrenaline rush (without having used up the adrenaline) is pretty
bad.
--
D. Jay Newman           ! Author of: _Linux Robotics: Building Smarter Robots_
                       !
jayspamKILLspamsprucegrove.com     ! "Those who would give up essential liberty to
                       ! purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither
http://enerd.ws/robots  ! liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin

2007\01\23@143338 by Bob Axtell

face picon face
James Newtons Massmind wrote:
{Quote hidden}

This is an interesting discussion to me. I hope it isn't too far off the
OT subject.

I was never afflicted with depression until I began to experience the
damage of Diabetes II. The effects are
extremely demoralizing. The disease (high blood sugar) affects the eyes,
the kidneys, the cardio system, and
the extreme pain of neuropathy. Diabetes II is more of a disease of
resistance to insulin, rather than an absence
of insulin (Diabetes I).

After 10 years of dealing with  the  effects of the disease, which
slowly got worse, I began to experience heavy
depression, and I have never really gotten "cured" of it.  My body
resists insulin so strongly now that I take a daily
dose so high that, if a "normal" person took it, his brain would be
scrambled into a deep coma. I can no longer feel
a pinprick in my feet, and my hands are following suit. I have a open
wound in my foot that won't heal; it is 30%
"healed" after 14 MONTHS of intense wound care. I can barely hold a
soldering iron, and cannot feel 0805s through
a tweezer. I am forming cataracts in both eyes, and the retinas are
being slowly damaged by the high BG. No matter
how much insulin I take, my BG readings are NEVER below 300 (80 is normal).

As a result of this and more, I am chronically, constantly depressed. I
have taken Zoloft and everything else I know of,
and nothing works.

The only thing I have been able to control is the neuropathy, which I
control completely with 6000mg of Evening Primrose
Oil per day (4 gel tabs). But this "cure" is not sanctioned by doctors-
they don't believe that it works- but it does.

--Bob

2007\01\23@143810 by Bob Axtell

face picon face
D. Jay Newman wrote:
>>> Zoloft barely keeps me sane.
>>>      
>> A co-worker of mine recently switched to errr.... Celexia? I'm probably
>> spelling that wrong. And the difference in her demeanor was amazing.
>>    
>
> If your co-worked can handle Celexia (I am not sure of the spelling also)
> she should be able to get Lexapro (the same active ingredient without
> one of the impurities). Our insurance vascilates on this though.
>
>  
My experience with Celexia is that it causes sharp reductions in sex
drive. Celexia makes a molecule
with a LEFT and a RIGHT component. Lexapro  is just the RIGHT component
and it doesn't seem to
exhibit that effect. I try not to deal with anything on the left anyway...

--Bob

2007\01\23@145242 by James Newtons Massmind

face picon face

> After drug dosage went a way you will be worst then before.
> Today's doctors are dumb and stupid do not know any thing.
> When was last time you did exercise ? or learn more about
> what food to eat or do not eat. I am sure if you
>
> 1. eat right

Easier said than done, but yes, a valid point. We spend more on organic, top
quality, healthy food than most people. Food is our second largest cost,
after the mortgage.

> 2. sleep on time

Tell it to the kids, deadlines, wife, and the insomnia.

> 3. exercise

Yes, I agree, but this is easily forgotten or shoved aside when other needs
become more important. In the winter, going out in the cold is difficult.
Yes, I'm a wimp. I moved to SoCal for the A/C.

> 4. do meditation some times

Sure, why not?

> 5. spend your time with right people

And who are they?

Do I get to pick them?

Do they want to spend time with me?



There are some depressions that are NOT a result of lifestyle. Believe me: I
know people who do all the things suggested and are still clinically
depressed. Please do not judge that others are making mistakes in the way
they live and this is the cause of their problems. While it may often be the
case, it is NOT always so.

---
James.


2007\01\23@145435 by David VanHorn

picon face
>
> After 10 years of dealing with  the  effects of the disease, which
> slowly got worse, I began to experience heavy
> depression, and I have never really gotten "cured" of it.  My body
> resists insulin so strongly now that I take a daily
> dose so high that, if a "normal" person took it, his brain would be
> scrambled into a deep coma.


I can identify with that.. When I had pancreatitis, I went through a
resistant phase, and was pegging the meter on blood sugar (should be 80-100,
was 450+) and at the same time, using 350 units of insulin.
Once they put me on real food, everything snapped back to normal though.



I can no longer feel
> a pinprick in my feet, and my hands are following suit. I have a open
> wound in my foot that won't heal; it is 30%
> "healed" after 14 MONTHS of intense wound care. I can barely hold a
> soldering iron, and cannot feel 0805s through
> a tweezer. I am forming cataracts in both eyes, and the retinas are
> being slowly damaged by the high BG. No matter
> how much insulin I take, my BG readings are NEVER below 300 (80 is
> normal).


Ouch.

As a result of this and more, I am chronically, constantly depressed. I
> have taken Zoloft and everything else I know of,
> and nothing works.
>
> The only thing I have been able to control is the neuropathy, which I
> control completely with 6000mg of Evening Primrose
> Oil per day (4 gel tabs). But this "cure" is not sanctioned by doctors-
> they don't believe that it works- but it does.


As long as it dosen't hose up your other meds, then go with what works.

2007\01\23@145705 by David VanHorn

picon face
On 1/23/07, Andre Abelian <.....aabelianKILLspamspam.....mason-electric.com> wrote:
>
> After drug dosage went a way you will be worst then before.
> Today's doctors are dumb and stupid do not know any thing.
> When was last time you did exercise ? or learn more about
> what food to eat or do not eat. I am sure if you
>
> 1. eat right
> 2. sleep on time
> 3. exercise
> 4. do meditation some times
> 5. spend your time with right people


That's a nice theory, and I'm sure it works for some people, but it dosen't
work for everyone.
What do you recommend for someone with chronic fatigue, who can't exercise,
and has great trouble sleeping?


you are not going to have any Depression problem and you
> will have more hair.


If I had any more hair, I'd need my own barber!  :)
That's one genetic issue I'm glad I didn't inherit.

2007\01\23@145822 by D. Jay Newman

flavicon
face
> After drug dosage went a way you will be worst then before.
> Today's doctors are dumb and stupid do not know any thing.
> When was last time you did exercise ? or learn more about
> what food to eat or do not eat. I am sure if you
>
> 1. eat right
> 2. sleep on time
> 3. exercise
> 4. do meditation some times
> 5. spend your time with right people
>
> you are not going to have any Depression problem and you
> will have more hair.
>
> Andre

Andre:

While your list is full of good things, they will only help the symptoms
of chronic depression, not the cause. Even doing all of these things will
not always help.

Chronic depression is a disease of the brain: certain neurotransmitters
don't work right.

You list makes it appear that you think that people with chronic depression
can just "shake it off". This is the attitude that killed my father.
--
D. Jay Newman           ! Author of: _Linux Robotics: Building Smarter Robots_
                       !
EraseMEjayspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTsprucegrove.com     ! "Those who would give up essential liberty to
                       ! purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither
http://enerd.ws/robots  ! liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin

2007\01\23@153439 by Mike Hord

picon face
> While your list is full of good things, they will only help the symptoms
> of chronic depression, not the cause. Even doing all of these things will
> not always help.

I think the problem is the unrecognized difference between a person who
is depressed and a person with depression.  A person with depression
will battle it forever, and may lose.  A person who is depressed may be
able to get off of that antidepressant in a few months or years.

I have this theory that for a person with mild, non-chronic depression,
the chemical imbalance encourages negative thoughts, which encourage
the imbalance, etc.  Drugs can break that cycle and get you back to
where you ought to be.  Don't know if it's the case, but twice in my life
I've been on antidepressants for a few months, and in both cases, I was
able to wean off of them.  I'm a bad experiment, though, because in
both instances, I simultaneously underwent huge lifestyle changes
(high school to college and unhappily married to happily divorced).

Mike H.

2007\01\23@153525 by Mauricio Giovagnini

flavicon
face
Bob, its sad to read this post and I undestand you.

My father suffers the same disease and has the exact same problems as you, plus being an hipertense person (his blood pressure is always high)

He has his good days where he will conquer the world, and the other days where he just wants only to sleep.  His kidneys are also not good at all and he'll probably needs to be connected to a machine to process his blood (I don't know the translation of the spanish term "dialisis" to english).  Is a process needed to be done on persons with hard kidney problems.  Its a really disgusting disease.

I hope you get better... sincerely.



----- Mensaje original ----
De: Bob Axtell <engineerspamspam_OUTneomailbox.com>
Para: Microcontroller discussion list - Public. <@spam@piclistKILLspamspammit.edu>
Enviado: martes 23 de enero de 2007, 16:31:47
Asunto: Re: [OT]:: Depression cure within hours

James Newtons Massmind wrote:
{Quote hidden}

This is an interesting discussion to me. I hope it isn't too far off the
OT subject.

I was never afflicted with depression until I began to experience the
damage of Diabetes II. The effects are
extremely demoralizing. The disease (high blood sugar) affects the eyes,
the kidneys, the cardio system, and
the extreme pain of neuropathy. Diabetes II is more of a disease of
resistance to insulin, rather than an absence
of insulin (Diabetes I).

After 10 years of dealing with  the  effects of the disease, which
slowly got worse, I began to experience heavy
depression, and I have never really gotten "cured" of it.  My body
resists insulin so strongly now that I take a daily
dose so high that, if a "normal" person took it, his brain would be
scrambled into a deep coma. I can no longer feel
a pinprick in my feet, and my hands are following suit. I have a open
wound in my foot that won't heal; it is 30%
"healed" after 14 MONTHS of intense wound care. I can barely hold a
soldering iron, and cannot feel 0805s through
a tweezer. I am forming cataracts in both eyes, and the retinas are
being slowly damaged by the high BG. No matter
how much insulin I take, my BG readings are NEVER below 300 (80 is normal).

As a result of this and more, I am chronically, constantly depressed. I
have taken Zoloft and everything else I know of,
and nothing works.

The only thing I have been able to control is the neuropathy, which I
control completely with 6000mg of Evening Primrose
Oil per day (4 gel tabs). But this "cure" is not sanctioned by doctors-
they don't believe that it works- but it does.

--Bob











       

       
               
__________________________________________________
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http://www.yahoo.com.ar/respuestas

2007\01\23@160529 by Howard Winter

face
flavicon
picon face
On Tue, 23 Jan 2007 12:35:23 -0800 (PST), Mauricio Giovagnini wrote:

>...  
>I don't know the translation of the spanish term "dialisis" to english).

That's pretty easy:  "dialysis"!  :-)

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2007\01\23@161536 by Andre Abelian

flavicon
face
James,

-----Original Message-----
From: KILLspampiclist-bouncesKILLspamspammit.edu [RemoveMEpiclist-bouncesTakeThisOuTspammit.edu]On Behalf
Of James Newtons Massmind
Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2007 11:53 AM
To: 'Microcontroller discussion list - Public.'
Subject: RE: [OT]:: Depression cure within hours


> After drug dosage went a way you will be worst then before.
> Today's doctors are dumb and stupid do not know any thing.
> When was last time you did exercise ? or learn more about
> what food to eat or do not eat. I am sure if you
>
> 1. eat right

Easier said than done,

>> I never said it is easy

but yes, a valid point. We spend more on organic, top
quality, healthy food than most people. Food is our second largest cost,
after the mortgage.

>> Organic doesn't mean you are on right track. You may buy organic coffee
that is not good for you. just an example

> 2. sleep on time

Tell it to the kids, deadlines, wife, and the insomnia.
>> I guess this is how it started. How long to do sleep a day?


> 3. exercise

Yes, I agree, but this is easily forgotten or shoved aside when other needs
become more important. In the winter, going out in the cold is difficult.
Yes, I'm a wimp. I moved to SoCal for the A/C.
>> You do not really need any tool. your body has enough weight.

> 4. do meditation some times

Sure, why not?

> 5. spend your time with right people

And who are they?
>> your brother ,sister, friends etc.

Do I get to pick them?
>> Yes

Do they want to spend time with me?
>> it is up to them not you

There are some depressions that are NOT a result of lifestyle. Believe me: I
know people who do all the things suggested and are still clinically
depressed. Please do not judge that others are making mistakes in the way
they live and this is the cause of their problems. While it may often be the
case, it is NOT always so.

>>
try learning acupressure point. They really work.
Buy book and read it. Just to give you an idea how it works some thing like
http://www.dishant.com/acupressure/acu/depression/depression.html

<<

Andre





---
James.


2007\01\23@161728 by Tamas Rudnai

face picon face
That is for sure there are number of different type of depressions and some
can be cured, some other can be controlled and as far as I know there is one
that cannot be cured either controlled you just can learn how to deal with
it. For Bob it could be very difficult as his medical problem is permanent.

If I understand not the Novorapid, nor Mixtard or any other type of insulin
works well for you, Bob? Beta Keaton is also high or just the sugar level?

Tamas


On 1/23/07, Mike Hord <spamBeGonemike.hordspamBeGonespamgmail.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> -

2007\01\23@163113 by Herbert Graf

flavicon
face
On Tue, 2007-01-23 at 14:43 -0500, D. Jay Newman wrote:
> Andre:
>
> While your list is full of good things, they will only help the symptoms
> of chronic depression, not the cause. Even doing all of these things will
> not always help.
>
> Chronic depression is a disease of the brain: certain neurotransmitters
> don't work right.
>
> You list makes it appear that you think that people with chronic depression
> can just "shake it off". This is the attitude that killed my father.

It is unfortunate, but not uncommon that certain diseases get labeled as
"your fault". Depression is often one of those diseases. The mass of the
public misunderstand what depression is and feel it's something a person
should just "get over". They don't understand that there are real
physical causes, and although the symptoms seem to be "in a person's
head", that doesn't discount the fact that the disease is REAL, and not
something a person can just "walk off".

Another similar twist to this is for some diseases the public feels the
sufferer "got what was coming to them". A good example of this is lung
cancer. While many people with the disease were smokers, there is a good
percentage of people with the disease that NEVER touched a cigarette in
their lives, and were never really exposed to smoke. Lung cancer can
pretty much hit anyone (like every cancer), yet because many cases
happen to smokers, ALL suffers get lumped in with this "it's your fault
you have cancer" crowd.

It just bugs me that there are people out there that are TRULY suffering
and society looks at them in this sort of way. TTYL

2007\01\23@173023 by D. Jay Newman

flavicon
face
> I think the problem is the unrecognized difference between a person who
> is depressed and a person with depression.  A person with depression
> will battle it forever, and may lose.  A person who is depressed may be
> able to get off of that antidepressant in a few months or years.

Yes. We use the same word for two very different problems that outwardly
appear the same. This is why I tend to use "chronic depression" or
"genetic depression".

> I have this theory that for a person with mild, non-chronic depression,
> the chemical imbalance encourages negative thoughts, which encourage
> the imbalance, etc.  Drugs can break that cycle and get you back to
> where you ought to be.  Don't know if it's the case, but twice in my life

This sounds right. Antidepressants may help you sleep better, which helps
you feel less depressed which helps you to sleep better...

> I've been on antidepressants for a few months, and in both cases, I was
> able to wean off of them.  I'm a bad experiment, though, because in
> both instances, I simultaneously underwent huge lifestyle changes
> (high school to college and unhappily married to happily divorced).
>
> Mike H.

Unfortunately *any* lifestyle changes are stressors (they cause stress).
Even good things can cause problems because things have changed.
--
D. Jay Newman           ! Author of: _Linux Robotics: Building Smarter Robots_
                       !
TakeThisOuTjayEraseMEspamspam_OUTsprucegrove.com     ! "Those who would give up essential liberty to
                       ! purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither
http://enerd.ws/robots  ! liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin

2007\01\23@174640 by D. Jay Newman

flavicon
face
> > Concentrating on being happy works when I'm just feeling blue. When
> > depression hits I either have to wait it out (months), find a long and
> > intense adrenaline rush, or use drugs.
>
> Not sure I know the difference between feeling blue and being depressed.

If you don't know the difference, you've never had chronic depression.

Imagine:
       1. A dark cloud in your brain that slows down your thinking and makes
               everything more difficult.
       2. Not caring about anything.
       3. Loss of sex drive.
       4. Difficulty sleeping.

Those are some of the more obvious symptoms of depression.
--
D. Jay Newman           ! Author of: _Linux Robotics: Building Smarter Robots_
                       !
RemoveMEjayspamTakeThisOuTsprucegrove.com     ! "Those who would give up essential liberty to
                       ! purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither
http://enerd.ws/robots  ! liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin

2007\01\23@175251 by John Ferrell

face picon face
Celexa is doing a pretty good job for me. It is not cheap and it keeps me
from worrying about some things I should worry about. I still seem to
"Roller Coaster" my emotions, but not as extreme.

I was chatting with a nurse a while back who also deals with depression. She
said a doctor told her that telling someone with depression to "just snap
out of it" was like telling someone with diarrhea to "just hold it"!

John Ferrell    W8CCW
"My Competition is not my enemy"
http://DixieNC.US

{Original Message removed}

2007\01\23@183516 by Dan Smith

face picon face
On 1/23/07, D. Jay Newman <jayEraseMEspam.....sprucegrove.com> wrote:
> It is more the feeling of being surrounded by a dark cloud that stands
> between me and the world. At least that is one of my types of depression.

That's a good way of putting it.

It's interesting to see the response on this thread.  I tend to forget
how many people suffer from depression.  I've had depression/anxiety
problems for a long time and went back onto Paroxetine at Christmas
after trying 6 months without it.

I read the New Scientist article at the weekend and found it
fascinating.  Definitely worth a read.

Dan

2007\01\23@184749 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
>> Not sure I know the difference between feeling blue and being
>> depressed.
>
> If you don't know the difference, you've never had chronic
> depression.
>
> Imagine:
> 1. A dark cloud in your brain that slows down your thinking and
> makes
> everything more difficult.
> 2. Not caring about anything.
> 3. Loss of sex drive.
> 4. Difficulty sleeping.

Winston Churchill called it "The Black Dog".
That term has now entered the popular literature as a jocular metaphor
for depression. (Around 100,000 giggling hits).
Arguably, being able to make joculat metaphors about something so dark
is a small step on the path away from it.


   R

2007\01\24@074422 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
D. Jay Newman wrote:

> Chronic depression is a disease of the brain: certain neurotransmitters
> don't work right.

This is just one way to look at it. Nobody knows /why/ they don't work
right. (Of course you can find another "cause" of why they don't work
right, but that still doesn't answer the "why question": it just shifts to
that next "cause". There's no end to this, on this road.)

Drugs are just the most invested-in way to deal with this, but by far not
the only one -- no matter what any medical journal says.

My neurotransmitters don't work right either, and if it were up to them and
their literature, I'd be on drugs for a lifetime. I'm not, and I'm just
fine. Wasn't easy to get there, and isn't always easy to remain there.

Don't bash lightly the power of will. And of faith. In the end, it's about
living; the medical community doesn't necessarily know much about this.

Gerhard

2007\01\24@075103 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
Herbert Graf wrote:

> It is unfortunate, but not uncommon that certain diseases get labeled as
> "your fault".

Once you truly embrace the deeper meaning of this, you start seeing the
power in it. Everything that happens with you or to you is somehow
controlled by you, by decisions you made -- which also means it's in your
hands. Once you start giving away this gift, you lose control and are in
the hands of incontrollable circumstances.

The power of this way to look at things is that you put yourself in
control. May be scary and may take a while to get used to it, but IMO it's
worth it.

(However please don't misunderstand me. I don't want to say that this is a
recipe how to judge /others/. It only works for looking at oneself, it
doesn't work for looking at others.)

Gerhard

2007\01\24@080011 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
David VanHorn wrote:

> What do you recommend for someone with chronic fatigue, who can't exercise,
> and has great trouble sleeping?

If asked, I'd say a possible first step is to stop complaining, accept
whatever is and try to make the best out of it. And be happy with that, as
it still is more than many others have.

Gerhard

2007\01\24@084230 by Hazelwood Lyle

flavicon
face
> >> Not sure I know the difference between feeling blue and being
> >> depressed.
> >
> > If you don't know the difference, you've never had chronic
> > depression.
> >
> > Imagine:
> > 1. A dark cloud in your brain that slows down your thinking and
> > makes
> > everything more difficult.
> > 2. Not caring about anything.
> > 3. Loss of sex drive.
> > 4. Difficulty sleeping.
>

I've been reading this thread with only mild interest. Now you've got my attention.
I currently suffer each of the above to _some_ extent.
I've had some variety of health problems in the past, and I'm currently considering
a variety of possible causes. Depression was not on my list.

The greatest relief I've found so far, though it was only passing, began when I woke
from having my Gall Bladder removed. I felt absolutely WONDERFUL, beginning only a
few minutes after I woke from the surgery. Its removal was not for gallstones, but for
a long-undiagnosed infection that was affecting my general (and mental) health.

Please, I don't mean to detract at all from those suffering depression. I'm not claiming
to be anything but a very interested reader who wants to find his own path to a better life.
Unfortunately, mood altering drugs are a bit dangerous for me, but I'll be reading and
learning whatever I can from this thread.

James, congratulations on twelve years. Keep Coming Back.

Lyle

2007\01\24@085458 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
Permission to speak frankly, Sir!.
Assumed given

Flame shields up.

There's some good stuff on this thread, and I'm pleased I started it
(even if its appositeness to so many was serendipitous rather than
planned).
.
BUT amongst the undoubted good advice and different thinking
suggestions there is still a surprising amount of judgementalism and
I-'ve-got-the-answer-for-you-ism peeking through.

Several people have suggested some quite sensible sounding ideas re
life style, attitude, drugs or not,  etc, but have then spoiled it by
adding effectively " ... and if you just did this as well you wouldn't
have the problems you do [turkey]". In some cases this may well be
true. In other cases it certainly isn't. For some at least a small
dose of animal tranquiliser (aka Ketamine) may be THE most stunningly
good thing that ever happened to them. For others it would be a crutch
and a prop better not used.

Even Gerhard, who I have long appreciated for his measured approach
and sense of fairness, and who I'm sure intended to give good and kind
advice, risks tearing at sensitive feelings with an answer that was
meant to be helpful. To wit -

>> What do you recommend for someone with chronic fatigue, who can't
>> exercise,
>> and has great trouble sleeping?

> If asked, I'd say a possible first step is to stop complaining,
> accept
> whatever is and try to make the best out of it. And be happy with
> that, as
> it still is more than many others have.

Now, it may just be a "lost in translation" issue but some people
could easily see this as saying, along with some good advice.

- you're a moaner.
- you fail to accept your lot as you ought
- eat your greens, the poor starving children in "...." would love to
have those to eat.
- your mother wears army boots

*IF* the person with chronic fatigue is Dave, and I somehow doubt it,
as Dave has evidenced an apparent enthusiasm and go out there and
gettem ism as much as any on list, then he would I think be quietly
appalled at such a rebuff (even if it happened to be entirely to the
point :-) !). If the person concerned is a loved one close to him (eg
his wife) then pistols at dawn at 10 paces may not be out of the
question.

Gerhard may just want to put the same advice differently.
Dave may wish to tell us more.
Russell may wish to crawl inside his flame shelter and lock the door.


       R


2007\01\24@111119 by Sean Breheny

face picon face
Hi all,

Really interesting discussion. I think there is something to be said
for the link between intelligence and depression (as I think James
mentioned) as I'm surprised at how many piclisters suffer from it.

I, too, have had problems with anxiety and depression. Even as a
child, I had anxiety problems and then depression was added to it
suddenly in my early 20s.

It is important to avoid extremes in this discussion. The following
statements are BOTH untrue:

1) Depression is just a physical problem and you can do nothing about
it besides drugs.
2) Depression is something one can just "snap out of".

For the first few years of having depression, I didn't know what it
was and I thought I could manage my life by following my "gut
feelings" and being really responsible for my own actions, feelings,
etc. This was a big mistake. It landed me in a deep rut of depression
and constant anxiety for almost two years. I finally tried Zoloft and
while certainly not being a cure, it did help a lot.

At the same time, if I simply took Zoloft and didn't modify my
behavior at all, I would not feel as well as I do today. Exercise,
recognizing irrationally depressing thought patterns, and my religious
faith have all helped immensely.

There is indeed an important difference between sadness and
depression. Sadness usually is a person's reaction to wanting
something and not being able to have it (e.g., losing a loved one, not
getting a job offer, etc.) In depression, you want to be happy but
cannot imagine anything which actually attracts you very much (or
worse, in my case, opposite things would attract me from moment to
moment).

What makes it clear that there is a strongly physical component to
depression is that one's feelings can suddenly shift in either
direction. You can go within minutes from not finding anything
interesting to being intensely interested in things. Also rest and
stress greatly affect the frequency of onset of depressive or anxious
thoughts.

I've found that depression often involves a cycle. For example: you
know that exercise and proper eating would help, but while exercising
you become very tired very quickly and eating the "wrong" stuff may be
one of the few things which gives you pleasure. In this type of
situation, both patience and perseverance are needed. In other words,
you need to be easy on yourself when you just can't bring yourself to
do what you should. At the same time, you must recognize that only you
(with the help of God and the support of friends) can break the cycle
and you will remain in it until it is broken. With this information,
you keep trying to do that exercise and proper eating and eventually,
some opportunities when you feel well enough with present themselves
and you will make use of them and begin the path out of the cycle.

I hope this helps a bit,

Sean

On 1/24/07, Russell McMahon <EraseMEapptechspamparadise.net.nz> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> -

2007\01\24@111249 by Sean Breheny

face picon face
One additional comment:

Another important difference between sadness and depression is that
depression often includes irrational feelings of guilt and a general
feeling of being unwell and fatigued (similar to how you feel when you
come down with a very bad cold, but without the upper respiratory
symptoms).


On 1/24/07, Sean Breheny <RemoveMEshb7EraseMEspamEraseMEcornell.edu> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

2007\01\24@114540 by Andre Abelian

flavicon
face
Sean,


Hi all,

Really interesting discussion. I think there is something to be said
for the link between intelligence and depression (as I think James
mentioned) as I'm surprised at how many piclisters suffer from it.

I, too, have had problems with anxiety and depression. Even as a
child, I had anxiety problems and then depression was added to it
suddenly in my early 20s.

It is important to avoid extremes in this discussion. The following
statements are BOTH untrue:

1) Depression is just a physical problem and you can do nothing about
it besides drugs.

>>
I disagree that is your limit and understanding.
short answer "read about kundalini yoga"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kundalini
our mind can do what ever we want. your chose was to
take drug and it did it for you.
<<


2) Depression is something one can just "snap out of".
For the first few years of having depression, I didn't know what it
was and I thought I could manage my life by following my "gut
feelings" and being really responsible for my own actions, feelings,
etc. This was a big mistake. It landed me in a deep rut of depression
and constant anxiety for almost two years. I finally tried Zoloft and
while certainly not being a cure, it did help a lot.

At the same time, if I simply took Zoloft and didn't modify my
behavior at all, I would not feel as well as I do today. Exercise,
recognizing irrationally depressing thought patterns, and my religious
faith have all helped immensely.

There is indeed an important difference between sadness and
depression. Sadness usually is a person's reaction to wanting
something and not being able to have it (e.g., losing a loved one, not
getting a job offer, etc.) In depression, you want to be happy but
cannot imagine anything which actually attracts you very much (or
worse, in my case, opposite things would attract me from moment to
moment).

What makes it clear that there is a strongly physical component to
depression is that one's feelings can suddenly shift in either
direction. You can go within minutes from not finding anything
interesting to being intensely interested in things. Also rest and
stress greatly affect the frequency of onset of depressive or anxious
thoughts.

I've found that depression often involves a cycle. For example: you
know that exercise and proper eating would help, but while exercising
you become very tired very quickly and eating the "wrong" stuff may be
one of the few things which gives you pleasure. In this type of
situation, both patience and perseverance are needed. In other words,
you need to be easy on yourself when you just can't bring yourself to
do what you should. At the same time, you must recognize that only you
(with the help of God and the support of friends) can break the cycle
and you will remain in it until it is broken. With this information,
you keep trying to do that exercise and proper eating and eventually,
some opportunities when you feel well enough with present themselves
and you will make use of them and begin the path out of the cycle.

I hope this helps a bit,

Sean

On 1/24/07, Russell McMahon <RemoveMEapptechTakeThisOuTspamspamparadise.net.nz> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> -

2007\01\24@123438 by Sean Breheny

face picon face
Hi Andre,

There may be a language problem here. I think you misunderstood me:

{Quote hidden}

The statement marked "1" above is a myth. I said it was UNTRUE. I was
using it and the other statement (marked "2" in my first post) as an
example of extremes to avoid. Depression is BOTH physical and mental,
and both approaches are helpful.

Sean

2007\01\24@124835 by D. Jay Newman

flavicon
face
> The greatest relief I've found so far, though it was only passing, began when I woke
> from having my Gall Bladder removed. I felt absolutely WONDERFUL, beginning only a
> few minutes after I woke from the surgery. Its removal was not for gallstones, but for

What anethetic were you given? Ketemine could have been it.

> Unfortunately, mood altering drugs are a bit dangerous for me, but I'll be reading and
> learning whatever I can from this thread.

Mood altering drugs are dangerous for anybody, but they are sometimes
better than the alternative.
--
D. Jay Newman           ! Author of: _Linux Robotics: Building Smarter Robots_
                       !
EraseMEjayspamspamspamBeGonesprucegrove.com     ! "Those who would give up essential liberty to
                       ! purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither
http://enerd.ws/robots  ! liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin

2007\01\24@125518 by D. Jay Newman

flavicon
face
> D. Jay Newman wrote:
>
> > Chronic depression is a disease of the brain: certain neurotransmitters
> > don't work right.
>
> This is just one way to look at it. Nobody knows /why/ they don't work
> right. (Of course you can find another "cause" of why they don't work
> right, but that still doesn't answer the "why question": it just shifts to
> that next "cause". There's no end to this, on this road.)

Agreed. The brain is still fairly unknown.

> Drugs are just the most invested-in way to deal with this, but by far not
> the only one -- no matter what any medical journal says.

I never said that it is the only method.

> My neurotransmitters don't work right either, and if it were up to them and
> their literature, I'd be on drugs for a lifetime. I'm not, and I'm just
> fine. Wasn't easy to get there, and isn't always easy to remain there.
>
> Don't bash lightly the power of will. And of faith. In the end, it's about
> living; the medical community doesn't necessarily know much about this.

I rarely bash the power of will. I was trained in magic since an early
age, and most of that is will and visualization (this "self-hypnosis" if
the term "magic" doesn't work for you). This works fine for me when I'm not
under too much stress.

I'm glad that you found a solution, but I would suggest not telling
people that your solution will work for every case. Drugs are good
for some cases and even ECT works for some.

I believe that lifestyle changes are necessary for a long-term solution,
but the changes will probably differ for each individual.

> Gerhard
--
D. Jay Newman           ! Author of: _Linux Robotics: Building Smarter Robots_
                       !
RemoveMEjayKILLspamspamsprucegrove.com     ! "Those who would give up essential liberty to
                       ! purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither
http://enerd.ws/robots  ! liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin

2007\01\25@043100 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
D. Jay Newman wrote:

> I never said that it is the only method.

> ... but I would suggest not telling people that your solution will work
> for every case.

In the spirit of your first comment above, I never said I would.

Gerhard

2007\01\25@050138 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
Hazelwood Lyle wrote:

> The greatest relief I've found so far, though it was only passing, began
> when I woke from having my Gall Bladder removed. I felt absolutely
> WONDERFUL, beginning only a few minutes after I woke from the surgery.
> Its removal was not for gallstones, but for a long-undiagnosed infection
> that was affecting my general (and mental) health.
>
> Please, I don't mean to detract at all from those suffering depression.
> I'm not claiming to be anything but a very interested reader who wants
> to find his own path to a better life. Unfortunately, mood altering
> drugs are a bit dangerous for me, but I'll be reading and learning
> whatever I can from this thread.

(PC Disclaimer: All "IMO" and not claiming to know what's good for you.
Take it or leave it.)

I know from personal experience that chronic infections can very well bring
all the symptoms that are generally attributed to depression. Depression is
one of these "diseases" that are not really diseases. (Which isn't meant to
be constructed as "are not real" :)

Depression, epilepsy, schizophrenia, "diseases" like these are different
from, say, a flu because they don't have a clear cause. (Even with the flu
it's not quite clear why one gets you and another not, but at least there's
that virus that gets you when it does.) Those "diseases" are not much more
than descriptions of a (pretty vague) symptomatic picture. And of a bunch
of drugs that are given experimentally, until the "right one" is found. The
causes are pretty much unknown (try applying the "why question" sometime to
the claimed causes; you won't have to go far) and I think that while
experiences of others can serve as very helpful guides, everybody really
has to get to their own bottom of it and figure it out.

I think there's more to it ("it" being our ability to experience ourselves,
work with ourselves) than drug-driven medicine wants to admit.
Incidentally, it is this what brought me to Brazil. Sometimes the measures
need to be radical :)

Gerhard

2007\01\25@052433 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
Russell McMahon wrote:

>>> What do you recommend for someone with chronic fatigue, who can't
>>> exercise, and has great trouble sleeping?
>
>> If asked, I'd say a possible first step is to stop complaining, accept
>> whatever is and try to make the best out of it. And be happy with that,
>> as it still is more than many others have.
>
> Now, it may just be a "lost in translation" issue but some people
> could easily see this as saying, along with some good advice.
>
> - you're a moaner.
> - you fail to accept your lot as you ought
> - eat your greens, the poor starving children in "...." would love to
> have those to eat.
> - your mother wears army boots

You said one thing right: "some people could easily see this as saying
[fill in your preferred offense]".

I don't know since when it was a good argument against anything that "some
people" could take it the wrong way. I guess you must go about pretty
purposefully in misrepresenting what I wrote, if you want to do so. There's
a context. There was a question, I answered. The question didn't give many
specific details, so the answer was pretty generic, too. The more specific
the question gets, the more specific the answer becomes.

Another part of the context are the other messages I wrote in this thread.
In one I wrote:

> (However please don't misunderstand me. I don't want to say that this is
> a recipe how to judge /others/. It only works for looking at oneself, it
> doesn't work for looking at others.)

I almost feel as if I had to add this paragraph as some sort of disclaimer
to every message. Isn't common sense enough? Or do we have to get all PC
here?


> Gerhard may just want to put the same advice differently.

How? Why? There's a million ways to put it, but it all boils down to the
same: stop being greedy and start being grateful, stop thinking about what
you could have and start thinking about what you can give, ... Advice is
advice. It wasn't uncalled for advice either: it was requested by the
question.

Of course, when talking (or writing) to a real person about the real
problems of that person, this could be phrased completely differently,
personally, taking into account the individual situation. But this is not
possible with such a generic question. I thought that was pretty much
obvious.

If I'm not mistaken (this since I'm responding to you :), there's some in
the Christian faith that boils down to the same. (Which I happen to think
is one of the brighter sides of Christianity.)

Gerhard

2007\01\25@074259 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
Extracted out of a broader context, but this doesn't do excessive
violence to it IMHO.

>> our mind can do what ever we want. your [[ chose | choice]] was to
>> take [[the]] drug and it did it for you.

If a drug is administered unbeknown to the subject and it has radical
and statistically highly significant repeatable effects that can be
invariably demonstrated in double blind crossover trials, as is
(apparently) the case for eg the Ketamine effects which started this
thread, then the statement above becomes dangerously close to mumbo
jumbo and opponent beating. I APPRECIATE the spirit of what was
intended to be being said, but it would be easier to take the wrong
impression from it than the right one.

BECAUSE:    IF a person with clinically severe long term depression is
given, quite unbeknown to them, a single dose of Ketamine and it lifts
their depression, which is  what you can reasonably expect could
happen, THEN this is totally not what the above statement would be
taken to mean in normal circumstances. Certainly, the drug acted on
their mind, so you could, somewhat at a reach, say that their mind did
it, but the concepts "whatever we want" and "your choice" are
completely inoperative here.

If, then, one does choose to take eg Ketamine and it has an
essentially identical effect as it did above then, while the choosing
may indeed have some effect and the "mind doing things" may have some
relevance, it would be unreasonable to attribute all or probably even
most of the result to mind/choice action.

I belabour this point so thoroughly as it is all too easy for people
to take just as entrenched and blinkered attitudes at the trendy new
age no-drugs, mind can do everything, feel the power Luke end of the
spectrum as it is to do so at the "all you need is medicine" end. To
suggest that either extreme has all the answers for all of the people
all of the time is to make yourself even more extreme than P T Barnum.

What say we try to offer suggestions and advice of what has worked for
each of us without attempting to denigrate/criticise the possible
alternatives? Suggestions about the relative merits of other solutions
may almost have their place :-) - but in a world as complex as ours,
allowing that different things work variably well for different people
is usually wise. [[There are a few notable exceptions, but they don't
apply here.]]


       Russell

2007\01\25@084614 by Tony Smith

picon face
> Extracted out of a broader context, but this doesn't do
> excessive violence to it IMHO.
>
> >> our mind can do what ever we want. your [[ chose | choice]] was to
> >> take [[the]] drug and it did it for you.
>
> If a drug is administered unbeknown to the subject and it has
> radical and statistically highly significant repeatable
> effects that can be invariably demonstrated in double blind
>
>
> I belabour this point so thoroughly as it is all too easy for
> people to take just as entrenched and blinkered attitudes at
> the trendy new age no-drugs, mind can do everything, feel the
> power Luke end of the spectrum as it is to do so at the "all
> you need is medicine" end. To suggest that either extreme has
> all the answers for all of the people all of the time is to
> make yourself even more extreme than P T Barnum.


This is related to the 'pull your socks up and get on with it' attitude,
that doesn't help at all.  

I'm in the depression gulag as well; I don't know what happened, but I know
I certainly didn't choose to be depressed, nor, it seems, can I choose to
reverse it.  Two events have always stood out for me.

One was many years ago when an acquaintance pointed out that 'I was always
happy'.  I thought that was an odd thing for her to say; after all, why
would we be anything but happy?  It's easy to be happy, just pull your socks
up and...

Oh to be that naïve again.

At some point after that I became depressed, the depth varied from
'functional' to 'sucks'.  Why?  Who knows, it just happened.

The second event was a few years ago, when 'something clicked' inside my
brain.  It was pointed out that depression is like 'a black cloud', and
that's exactly what it felt like.  It was the feeling of the chill you get
when sitting in the spring sunshine, and a cloud suddenly covers it up.

I went from 'Ok' to 'depressed' in under 10 seconds, and I could feel that
cloud getting blacker and heavier.  I wasn't stressed, I was quite relaxed &
peaceful, yet now I was depressed.  Weird.

All together now:

I am happy
I am happy
I am happy...

Tony

2007\01\25@102128 by David VanHorn

picon face
>
> *IF* the person with chronic fatigue is Dave, and I somehow doubt it,
> as Dave has evidenced an apparent enthusiasm and go out there and
> gettem ism as much as any on list, then he would I think be quietly
> appalled at such a rebuff (even if it happened to be entirely to the
> point :-) !). If the person concerned is a loved one close to him (eg
> his wife) then pistols at dawn at 10 paces may not be out of the
> question.



I was, and I almost didn't say anything for reasons that may become obvious.

Since we're in OT here, those with lesser tolerance for lifestyle choices
may want to delete this before reading.












Ok, you were warned..





















Kardia is not my wife, she's my secondary.  My wife and I are polyamorous.
(wiki it)
For the record, I'm aware this is a public and archived forum.
Poly isn't "cheating", or "bigamy" or anything like that.   It IS a lot of
work, and certainly not for everyone.


Kardia is someone that I'm seriously in love with, and she is a person who
is in a lot of deep long term hurt.  For someone to cavalierly say "just
suck it up sister", is about as hurtful a thing as I can imagine, both to
her and to me..  However, it's rather easy to say that when you're
talking about some anonymous third party.  If you like, I'll post her email
and you can take it up with her directly.  She also practices "radical
honesty", so I hope you can "just suck it up" when she tells you honestly
how she feels about your proposal.


I met Kardia six months ago, and much like when I met Lori, it was love at
first sight.
Yeah, I know love at first sight is irrational, don't ask me to explain it.
We belong together.
Lori and I were engaged in three months, and married in seven.  Some didn't
expect us to last six months, but 30 years later, here we still are.


Kardia has a history of depression, along with fibromyalgia and CFS.  She
had also gone through the trauma of having three people very close to her
die fairly recently.  Until recently, she was suicidal, nad had been for
quite some time.  Kardia met us at a local SF convention, and about a month
later we all attended the HAI level three workshop together.


As we've come to know each other, I've been looking into the things that are
going badly for her, and I've looked into these conditions, and I've been
trying to help her find new ideas to explore.  There are effective
mainstream treatments for fibro and CFS, but her medical insurance won't
authorize them. She's been fighting that for a long time too.


One of the things that I found in looking around is Cymbalta, which is
intended for people with both depression and pain issues.  At my suggestion
she asked her Dr, and in December she made the switch, while under careful
supervision..  It's been a miraculous change.   The pain and fatigue haven't
gone away, but how she deals with them has changed completely.  She's able
to do more and she is really making great strides.


I can't possibly convey here what this means to us.  Just speaking about it
here causes again those tears of happiness.  Her recovery from depression is
probably the most meaningful Christmas gift I've ever received.


I hope there exists a special place in hell, and if not I hope they MAKE one
for Tom Cruise and his buddy David Miscavige, who would have you believe
that all psycheatric treatment is garbage, and that their "stuff" (I'm sure
I shouldn't say what I really feel at this point) is the real answer for
your problems.
Like Hubbard, Tom claimed on Oprah, "I've done the research"... Oh really
Tom?  When did you venture off into research psychology?  I must have missed
that part of your career.  I'm sure that I can't concieve of how much pain
and suffering these two have caused.



> Gerhard may just want to put the same advice differently.
> Dave may wish to tell us more.
> Russell may wish to crawl inside his flame shelter and lock the door.


Could be all of the above.

2007\01\25@105002 by David VanHorn

picon face
>
>
> I've found that depression often involves a cycle. For example: you
> know that exercise and proper eating would help, but while exercising
> you become very tired very quickly and eating the "wrong" stuff may be
> one of the few things which gives you pleasure. In this type of
> situation, both patience and perseverance are needed. In other words,
> you need to be easy on yourself when you just can't bring yourself to
> do what you should. At the same time, you must recognize that only you
> (with the help of God and the support of friends) can break the cycle
> and you will remain in it until it is broken. With this information,
> you keep trying to do that exercise and proper eating and eventually,
> some opportunities when you feel well enough with present themselves
> and you will make use of them and begin the path out of the cycle.


I completely agree.. It's sort of a gordian knot problem.  But if you can
keep at it, and pull on it in the right places, just the right amount, then
you can make progress.

But don't underestimate the difference that a few milligrams of the right
chemical can make.
The chemical that works for one person will make another person worse, and
have unacceptable side effects on a third, but a fair number of people
respond very well and do very well on even a very light dose of the proper
drug.

In some cases, people are then able to repair things in their lives and get
to a point where they don't need the drug anymore, or something changes
inside, and the drug isn't needed anymore, and that's wonderful.

What I think all this is telling us, is that there may be a number of things
going on under the blanket label "depression", which may need different
solutions.  Our knowlege of these conditions today may (I hope!) seem
laughable in 20-50 years.  But, we have to do what we can, with what we have
today.

2007\01\25@112206 by Neil Cherry

picon face
Andre Abelian wrote:
> Sean,
>
>
> Hi all,
>
> Really interesting discussion. I think there is something to be said
> for the link between intelligence and depression (as I think James
> mentioned) as I'm surprised at how many piclisters suffer from it.
>
> I, too, have had problems with anxiety and depression. Even as a
> child, I had anxiety problems and then depression was added to it
> suddenly in my early 20s.
>
> It is important to avoid extremes in this discussion. The following
> statements are BOTH untrue:
>
> 1) Depression is just a physical problem and you can do nothing about
> it besides drugs.

    8<---- snip ----

Oh do I agree! Please be careful with absolute statements, especially
with respect to depression. I also suffer from depression and I fit
various descriptions posted by others. I doubt we all suffer from the
same kinds of depression or that we suffer from just depression. One
of the best things you can do is to identify that you have some form
of depression and do something about it. I can recognize my
symptoms and warn others, avoid certain situations that make it
worse and not be around certain types of people who see the
world as a doom and gloom place (they probably suffer too). I've
tried taking medicines but the side effects were worse than the
ailment. I now exercise, try to eat better (I've put on too much
weigh, nothing to do with depression) and live by a schedule. That
works OK for me. I don't have any recommendations to give to
others.

--
Linux Home Automation         Neil Cherry       ncherrySTOPspamspamspam_OUTlinuxha.com
http://www.linuxha.com/                         Main site
http://linuxha.blogspot.com/                    My HA Blog
Author of:            Linux Smart Homes For Dummies

2007\01\25@115302 by David VanHorn

picon face
>
>
> > Really interesting discussion. I think there is something to be said
> > for the link between intelligence and depression (as I think James
> > mentioned) as I'm surprised at how many piclisters suffer from it.


Reminds me of Marvin, the paranoid android.  :)

Yes, I think it is possible to be too aware for your own good sometimes.

2007\01\25@131628 by Howard Winter

face
flavicon
picon face
On Thu, 25 Jan 2007 10:21:25 -0500, David VanHorn wrote:

...a lot of fascinating stuff - well said, Dave, it must have been hard to write and I for one appreciate the effort!

Cheers,



Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2007\01\25@132115 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
David VanHorn wrote:

> For someone to cavalierly say "just suck it up sister", is about as
> hurtful a thing as I can imagine, both to her and to me..  However, it's
> rather easy to say that when you're talking about some anonymous third
> party.  

What I'm wondering is... nobody has (to my knowledge) said anything the
like. The only ones who brought this type of bashing into play were the
ones saying others shouldn't do it -- without anybody actually doing it.

This can be as bad (for a discussion at least) as actually saying it. And
as (anonymously) hurtful.

Gerhard

2007\01\25@133722 by David VanHorn

picon face
> What I'm wondering is... nobody has (to my knowledge) said anything the
> like. The only ones who brought this type of bashing into play were the
> ones saying others shouldn't do it -- without anybody actually doing it.


Well I see a lot of discussion that went on while I was writing that, and I
understand now that this wasn't your intent, so I am not offended, and if
you feel flamed by my reply, I apologize.

2007\01\25@144403 by David VanHorn

picon face
On 1/25/07, Howard Winter <spamBeGoneHDRWSTOPspamspamEraseMEh2org.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> On Thu, 25 Jan 2007 10:21:25 -0500, David VanHorn wrote:
>
> ...a lot of fascinating stuff - well said, Dave, it must have been hard to
> write and I for one appreciate the effort!


Well, we've been thinking a lot about where we are with this.

Many people are poly in secret.  It turns out that here in my little home
town, there are at least three polyfamilies that I know of, and I'm sure
there's more.  Nationwide, it's been there since forever, but lately is a
growing thing.   There's "big love" on hbo, which isn't strictly polyamory,
but it's close enough, and an upcoming series called "polly and marie", and
some other things in the works.

In the HBO series, the script seems to have been written by someone who had
a copy of that famous guideline, "how to f#$% up polyamory"  :)  But if
there were no drama, it wouldn't be interesting.

So we've been working through about going public.  Kardia is very public.
Back when she was feeling better, she was pretty much an activist.  I'm not
comfortable with hiding or lying, and I honestly can't concieve that we are
doing anything wrong.  It may be forbidden by someone else's religion but
then again I do enjoy pork chops, and I work on saturday and sunday too.
Nobody's being decieved, and no agreements between us are being broken, and
we are all happy.

If pancreatitis hits me again, I know that I will always have either lori or
kardia at my side, and the other one will be taking care of the kids.

I guess I'm getting a real appreciation for what gay people have been
through.  I'd say poly is probably 10-20 years behind them in relative
progress.

2007\01\25@153356 by Jinx

face picon face
> I hope there exists a special place in hell, and if not I hope they
> MAKE one for Tom Cruise and his buddy David Miscavige

So you don't buy into that whole Xenu / Thetan thing ? Why that
outfit hasn't been shut down or ridiculed out of existence I'll never
understand

Good luck in life Dave, my best wishes to you and your family


2007\01\25@170356 by Howard Winter

face
flavicon
picon face
Jinx,

On Fri, 26 Jan 2007 09:33:34 +1300, Jinx wrote:

> > I hope there exists a special place in hell, and if not I hope they
> > MAKE one for Tom Cruise and his buddy David Miscavige
>
> So you don't buy into that whole Xenu / Thetan thing ? Why that
> outfit hasn't been shut down or ridiculed out of existence I'll never
> understand

Same here - he made it up for a bet, for heaven's sake - howcome so many people are taken in by it?

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2007\01\25@172735 by David VanHorn

picon face
On 1/25/07, Jinx <KILLspamjoecolquittspamBeGonespamclear.net.nz> wrote:
>
> > I hope there exists a special place in hell, and if not I hope they
> > MAKE one for Tom Cruise and his buddy David Miscavige
>
> So you don't buy into that whole Xenu / Thetan thing ? Why that
> outfit hasn't been shut down or ridiculed out of existence I'll never
> understand


They prey on the weak.  The whole system is designed to pump money out of
the believers.

Got a problem? They have a course. ($$$) Take the course, and write up your
"big win" in order to pass.
Didn't have a "big win"? Then you must have done the course wrong, you'll
need to re-take it ($$$) and maybe some auditing too ($$$$) and if you do
this too many times, a "security check" ($$$$$).

Eventually you sort of smarten up and just claim the "big win" (like
levitating an ashtray) and move on to the next in the never-ending
procession of courses and auditing, and your "big win" is used to convince
the next sucker that "hubbard tech really works!"


Good luck in life Dave, my best wishes to you and your family


:)    Thanks.

2007\01\25@173016 by David VanHorn

picon face
>
>
>
> Same here - he made it up for a bet, for heaven's sake - howcome so many
> people are taken in by it?


Widely rumored, but never really proven.

In the beginning, he insisted that it was NOT a religion, and there was
NOTHING religious about it.
Later, he discovered the enormous tax advantages that religions enjoy.
Then came a memo where he told the folks that they shouldn't worry about the
big change, it was only a matter for tax accountants and lawyers..

It's amazing how easily a "religion" can get away with murder.

2007\01\25@192813 by James Newtons Massmind

face picon face
> > ...a lot of fascinating stuff - well said, Dave, it must have been
> > hard to write and I for one appreciate the effort!
>
>
> Well, we've been thinking a lot about where we are with this.

Honesty is the best policy.

I'm always amazed at how people react to things, not only when they are
complete jerks; bigots or just generally unaccepting, but also am I amazed,
from time to time, at how accepting, understanding and kind people can be.

And that brings me to how scared people often are to admit what and who they
are. In my life, I have on many occasions found out things about myself, my
problems, my passions, or whatever makes me tick, and been deathly afraid
that I was a freak; that I must hid and never let anyone know.

Thank goodness for the many thousands of other people who have not been
afraid to share that they have exactly the same makeup! The internet has
been wonderful for that; indexing private blogs, or web page or whatever of
these people who are not "normal", "vanilla" or "straight" so that the rest
of us can type in a few keywords and say "whew, at least I'm not the only
one."

And when I have found the courage, nay, the NEED to share what makes me who
I am, the relief and the reception have been wonderful. Almost always. And
like the old saying: "If you loan a man $20 and never see him again; it was
worth it" those who choose to reject me should not benefit from my presence.
(or be punished by it; depending on your point of view <grin>)

There are things about me I can't share because it would hurt others, but
when I can be publicly honest, I will be, and when I can't, there will be a
web page or a blog or something where I have shared my experience.

My step daughter is in love with a wonderful young lady, and in supporting
her, I learned that a large percentage of the teenagers who commit suicide
do so, at least in part, because they can't handle both the angst of coming
of age along with the stigma of dealing with the fact that they are gay. And
those kids can find all sort of examples of positive role models for gay
people. (yes, along with a lot of negative ones and unacceptance, but my
point is that they know they are not alone)

What about the kid who realizes early on that he is only turned on by feet?
Or the woman who finds she can't enjoy sex unless she is tied up? (don't
laugh, I'm being serious). Or the people who find it absolutely impossible
to say "NO" to anyone? Or who are so shy, that they feel destined to live
their lives an aching loneliness.

Before the internet, without the internet, how can these things be
addressed?

And on a darker note, what about the people who fight daily with impulses to
be violent, to kill, cut (themselves or others) and burn? There are
effective treatments for many mental issues which would otherwise destroy
one or more lives. But if these people are afraid to ask for help, will help
arrive before it is too late?

I have a friend whose daughter is a doctor in a clinic where they monitor
the application of drugs designed to reduce sex drive in men who have been
convicted of sexual crimes. These are men who have been released after years
in jail and are faced with resisting their urges while living in a world
filled with sexual images. They depend on this treatment to help them keep
themselves under control. They come in with wedding rings on their fingers,
suites on their backs, badges on their chest, and clerical collars around
their necks. And they are scared to death, perhaps for good reason, that
their friends, neighbors, bosses, and loved ones will find out about their
problem. The world doesn't want to be around them, but they have no where
else to go. The level of denial is amazing.

Check the Megan's law listing in your local areas. In my neighbor hood,
there is a convicted sex offender living somewhere down the street between
my house and a local park. We take a different street when we walk or ride
down there now. When I advised my neighbors, they didn't want to hear about
it. Head in the sand. "Must be a mistake, no one in our neighborhood could
be like that." And yet, no one is totally bad. Even the most horrible
murderers have done something well in their life. Hitler was a fair painter.
The Unabomber was a brilliant arithmetician. Wouldn't it be better to knock
on that door? Say "I know who and what you are, and I want to get to know
you and be around you so I can make damn sure you never do anything bad in
my neighborhood." It's the quite ones who are hiding away from the world who
end up blowing it up.

As a grateful recovered alcoholic, I know that asking for help can bring
great rewards when there is a general understanding that I didn't ask to be
this person; that I was not choosing to be a drunk; that my problem could be
controlled once I admitted it, ask for help, and accepted the result. And I
have had a similar reaction when I expressed that I was positively motivated
by things as well. Admitting that I'm a complete computer geek has
engendered acceptance, help and confidence from guys who are willing to take
my kids and I along on campouts, white water rafting, fishing, etc... So
that my children would not miss out on those experiences because they have a
dad who thinks camping means staying at a Hilton more than 10 miles from
city center. My wife and I are much happier since we have openly admitted
what turns us each on in bed. "You like WHAT!" (quick Google) "Oh, I guess
that isn't that weird..."

So, when people understand each others strengths and weaknesses, turn on and
turn offs, problems and solutions will come together and fewer lives are
wasted.

---
James.


2007\01\25@205024 by David VanHorn

picon face
>
> > Well, we've been thinking a lot about where we are with this.
>
> Honesty is the best policy.


Exactly.  We were taught this as kids, and yet somehow we have to re-learn
it.

I'm always amazed at how people react to things, not only when they are
> complete jerks; bigots or just generally unaccepting, but also am I
> amazed,
> from time to time, at how accepting, understanding and kind people can be.


Something that Stan Dale teaches in the HAI workshops I mentioned a while
back:
"I know you, you're just like me".
So very very true.



> Thank goodness for the many thousands of other people who have not been
> afraid to share that they have exactly the same makeup! The internet has
> been wonderful for that; indexing private blogs, or web page or whatever
> of
> these people who are not "normal", "vanilla" or "straight" so that the
> rest
> of us can type in a few keywords and say "whew, at least I'm not the only
> one."


Yes, and "normal" describes a smaller and smaller set of people.


> There are things about me I can't share because it would hurt others, but
> when I can be publicly honest, I will be, and when I can't, there will be
> a
> web page or a blog or something where I have shared my experience.


Exactly.  I ran into this when I thought I might talk to lori's minister
about some things.
It became immediately apparent that I couldn't trust him any farther than I
could throw him.
My UU minister is thankfully, a completely different animal.

My step daughter is in love with a wonderful young lady, and in supporting
> her, I learned that a large percentage of the teenagers who commit suicide
> do so, at least in part, because they can't handle both the angst of
> coming
> of age along with the stigma of dealing with the fact that they are gay.
> And
> those kids can find all sort of examples of positive role models for gay
> people. (yes, along with a lot of negative ones and unacceptance, but my
> point is that they know they are not alone)


FWIW, the UU churches have "welcoming congregations" that are openly
welcoming of GLBT members.  I don't know if she's looking for that or not,
but again, FWIW..  They also have a poly group which we belong to.

What about the kid who realizes early on that he is only turned on by feet?
> Or the woman who finds she can't enjoy sex unless she is tied up? (don't
> laugh, I'm being serious). Or the people who find it absolutely impossible
> to say "NO" to anyone? Or who are so shy, that they feel destined to live
> their lives an aching loneliness.


It's amazing how much baggage we hang on to such relatively harmless things,
and how much terrible pain it causes.  As long as everything's being done
honestly, between informed and consenting adults, then WHAT IS THE PROBLEM?

At our level 3, we had a fellow that had serious issues.  I can't say much
without violating confidentiality, but he had a "button", and when it was
pushed, he became immediately violent.
The staff handled it so fast and so completely that I was left with a "what
the hell happened" reaction, and they helped him through it, with great care
and love.  I can't say he's completely through it yet, but he's made a lot
of progress.  The "button" issue was something that anyone else wouldn't
even give a second thought to.  After the incident, you might think that
he'd be shunned, or avoided.  Not a bit.  Everyone was supportive, and
caring, and it went very well.

Before the internet, without the internet, how can these things be
> addressed?


HAI's "room of love" is one way, but it's not nearly enough bandwidth.
The net allows you to don a reasonably safe alter-ego, and to open up to
people who you won't have to face tomorrow at work, or probably anywhere
else. Of course the problem with that is that you never know really who
you're opening up to.. One has to be careful in either world.

And they are scared to death, perhaps for good reason, that
> their friends, neighbors, bosses, and loved ones will find out about their
> problem. The world doesn't want to be around them, but they have no where
> else to go. The level of denial is amazing.


Why is it so hard to treat another person with compassion?

I know I've never been a "hard case", but HAI has really opened my heart.
I'm glad of it, and I'm never looking back.

Say "I know who and what you are, and I want to get to know
> you and be around you so I can make damn sure you never do anything bad in
> my neighborhood." It's the quite ones who are hiding away from the world
> who
> end up blowing it up.


When people decouple from society, they can easily go WAY off the rails.
They can start to think of other people more as things than as people.
Any social interaction with other people has got to be a good thing.
I'm not saying that they should be put in tempting situations through
misguided trust, but they can be treated like human beings, and encouraged
to rejoin the human race.

As a grateful recovered alcoholic, I know that asking for help can bring
> great rewards when there is a general understanding that I didn't ask to
> be
> this person; that I was not choosing to be a drunk; that my problem could
> be
> controlled once I admitted it, ask for help, and accepted the result.


None of us is a "superman".  I'm proud of you James.



My wife and I are much happier since we have openly admitted
> what turns us each on in bed. "You like WHAT!" (quick Google) "Oh, I guess
> that isn't that weird..."


:)  Wierd is what OTHER people do..

So, when people understand each others strengths and weaknesses, turn on and
> turn offs, problems and solutions will come together and fewer lives are
> wasted.


Exactly.

Some day, we must get together and share an appropriate beverage or three.

2007\01\26@003055 by Vitaliy

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David VanHorn wrote:
[snip]
> Something that Stan Dale teaches in the HAI workshops I mentioned a while
> back:
> "I know you, you're just like me".
> So very very true.

[snip]
> I know I've never been a "hard case", but HAI has really opened my heart.
> I'm glad of it, and I'm never looking back.

David, how is HAI different from just another "religion", that you are so
against? HAI has its own Teacher, Facilitators, and a stated mission of
creating "a world where people live together in dignity, respect,
understanding, trust, kindness, compassion, honesty and love." And doesn't
Christian Science that you have recently mentioned, have different "levels",
too?

It hasn't even been two years since you attended that first workshop, how
can you be sure it "works"? How can you be sure that it won't wreck havoc in
your life later on? Finally, why do you think it's fair for you to preach
HAI, while discussions involving an alternative (e.g., Christian, Muslim)
worldview are forbidden?

It seems a bit strange that James condones and even actively participates in
discussions of this kind. In my opinion, we should stick to the rules (no
politics, no religion), or, per Dave's own suggestion, give the [WOT] tag an
official status.

-Vitaliy


2007\01\26@035404 by Russell McMahon

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flavicon
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>> I know I've never been a "hard case", but HAI has really opened my
>> heart.
>> I'm glad of it, and I'm never looking back.

> David, how is HAI different from just another "religion", that you
> are so
> against?

That's an easy one to answer.
HAI is yet another well intentioned and quite possibly often
beneficial manmade rule system.

Whereas, at least one of the available religions is about being in
touch with the creator of the universe.
:-).
I just know I had a flame suit around here some place ....



   Russell

If we can't fir the above through our tolerance filters but CAN fit
all the other recent material through then there's a rift in reality.
Which is quite likely to be the case ;-)

2007\01\26@095434 by David VanHorn

picon face
>
>
> David, how is HAI different from just another "religion", that you are so
> against?


I'm not against religion per se, just it's organized abusers.



> HAI has its own Teacher, Facilitators, and a stated mission of
> creating "a world where people live together in dignity, respect,
> understanding, trust, kindness, compassion, honesty and love." And doesn't
> Christian Science that you have recently mentioned, have different
> "levels",
> too?


Christian science??  I think you have me confused with my evil twin..  :)
But HAI isn't a religion.  It's not about that at all.
There's no "gods" and no theology at all.   It's a series of workshops aimed
at giving you some new ways to think about love, intimacy, and sexuality.
Among other things, HAI woke me up to the idea that poly is REAL.  My first
exposure to the idea was in "Time enough for love" and "Friday" and of
course "Stranger in a strange land" by Heinlein.  That was back more than 30
years ago, and I remember that I thought it would be a wonderful thing, but
that it couldn't possibly be real!


> It hasn't even been two years since you attended that first workshop, how
> can you be sure it "works"?


Well, like anything else, all anyone can say is "so far, so good".
The workshops have opened my eyes to a much deeper understanding of love,
and I guess there's no way I can "prove" that in any concrete sense.

For all I know, I may end up in the Hari Krishna version of hell, or
somewhere else. :)
My personal belief, at this time, is that we go to the same place that the
program goes when you shut off the computer.  But I could be wrong.   The UU
church that I attend, welcomes all beliefs. We have christians, buhddists,
pagans, agnostics, atheists..  But I only mentioned that to James in case
they were unaware (as I was for many years) that it was out there as an
option. I wasn't promoting it over any other option.




> How can you be sure that it won't wreck havoc in
> your life later on? Finally, why do you think it's fair for you to preach
> HAI, while discussions involving an alternative (e.g., Christian, Muslim)
> worldview are forbidden?


???  I'm lost. HAI isn't a religion.



> It seems a bit strange that James condones and even actively participates
> in
> discussions of this kind. In my opinion, we should stick to the rules (no
> politics, no religion), or, per Dave's own suggestion, give the [WOT] tag
> an
> official status.


Again, HAI isn't a religion.

2007\01\26@133802 by James Newtons Massmind

face picon face
> David, how is HAI different from just another "religion",
> that you are so against? HAI has its own Teacher,
> Facilitators, and a stated mission of creating "a world where
> people live together in dignity, respect, understanding,
> trust, kindness, compassion, honesty and love."

Show me any religion that stops with those and does not mention a super
natural being, force or power. More specifically, show me a religion that
does not include something that is "un-knowable" and a requirement that you
throw logic to the winds and accept this super-natural thing as fact without
proof.

I don't know HAI, so I can't say, but teachings and facilitators don't
strike me as religious and neither do the stated goals. Now, if it turns out
that as you get into it, the teachings and facilitators start asking you to
accept things that make no sense based on their word alone, then I would
about face so fast it would make your neck snap. But that's just me.

> And doesn't
> Christian Science that you have recently mentioned, have
> different "levels", too?

As does the military, the government, the Masons and most families. I don't
see how that relates.

> It hasn't even been two years since you attended that first
> workshop, how can you be sure it "works"? How can you be sure
> that it won't wreck havoc in your life later on?

A very good point, we shall have to wait and see. It's it great that we have
the ability to document the progress of this experiment? I agree that
speculation on the outcome of Dave's lifestyle is unknowable at this point
and so should not be discussed here. That includes positive or negative
predictions. Statements of known fact, such as the results of studies from
respected sources or personal experience are perfectly ok.

> Finally, why
> do you think it's fair for you to preach HAI, while
> discussions involving an alternative (e.g., Christian,
> Muslim) worldview are forbidden?

As a list owner, I get to set the rules and define the words. The forbidden
here is discussion of what can not be known. Things that will not reveal
themselves to confirmable tests and studies. That includes systems that are
so complex that they can not be fully understood, such as extreme political
issues, ethical questions and moral guidelines. Primarily, things that can
not be known, and that people fervently claim to know are not good subjects
for discussion in any forum. And by banning them here, we have created a
place where most conversations are peaceful and informative.

> It seems a bit strange that James condones and even actively
> participates in discussions of this kind. In my opinion, we
> should stick to the rules (no politics, no religion), or, per
> Dave's own suggestion, give the [WOT] tag an official status.

You are welcome to become an admin, learn the ropes, and then run the list
as you see fit. I've been doing it more than long enough.

---
James Newton: PICList webmaster/Admin
EraseMEjamesnewtonspamEraseMEpiclist.com  1-619-652-0593 phone
http://www.piclist.com/member/JMN-EFP-786
PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com


2007\01\26@135547 by Vitaliy

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face
David VanHorn wrote:
[snip]
>> How can you be sure that it won't wreck havoc in
>> your life later on? Finally, why do you think it's fair for you to preach
>> HAI, while discussions involving an alternative (e.g., Christian, Muslim)
>> worldview are forbidden?
>
>
> ???  I'm lost. HAI isn't a religion.

HAI has many attributes of a (possibly well-intentioned) sect. And I don't
think it's fair for you to be talking about how great HAI is, while
discussing the advantages of a Christian lifestyle is taboo.

>> It seems a bit strange that James condones and even actively participates
>> in
>> discussions of this kind. In my opinion, we should stick to the rules (no
>> politics, no religion), or, per Dave's own suggestion, give the [WOT] tag
>> an
>> official status.
>
> Again, HAI isn't a religion.

The statement is debatable.

In my opinion, it's either "stick to the rules," or "free speech all the
way."

Vitaliy

2007\01\26@135556 by Dario Greggio

face picon face
James Newtons Massmind wrote:

> "You are welcome to become an admin, learn the ropes, and then run the list
> as you see fit. I've been doing it more than long enough."

God, to Bruce Almighty (Bruce Almighty, 2003) :-)))


--
Ciao, Dario il Grande (522-485 a.C.)

2007\01\26@135806 by David VanHorn

picon face
>
>
> Show me any religion that stops with those and does not mention a super
> natural being, force or power. More specifically, show me a religion that
> does not include something that is "un-knowable" and a requirement that
> you
> throw logic to the winds and accept this super-natural thing as fact
> without
> proof.


UU is close, but not quite, and of course they don't get into intimacy and
sexuality other than being openly accepting of anyone including LGBT.

I don't know HAI, so I can't say, but teachings and facilitators don't
> strike me as religious and neither do the stated goals. Now, if it turns
> out
> that as you get into it, the teachings and facilitators start asking you
> to
> accept things that make no sense based on their word alone, then I would
> about face so fast it would make your neck snap. But that's just me.


HAI isn't a religion, neither for or against any religion either, except in
the domain of hate vs love.

2007\01\26@141744 by David VanHorn

picon face
>
>
> HAI has many attributes of a (possibly well-intentioned) sect. And I don't
> think it's fair for you to be talking about how great HAI is, while
> discussing the advantages of a Christian lifestyle is taboo.


HAI does not have anything to do with "god", in any form.
There's no praying, no worship, nothing of the sort.
Please trust me on this.


> The statement is debatable.


Dosen't need to be debated, email them and ask.


In my opinion, it's either "stick to the rules," or "free speech all the
> way."


Well, the list admin has spoken, and it seems that we both think you're
mistaken in your perception of what HAI is.

2007\01\26@143236 by Alex Harford

face picon face
On 1/26/07, David VanHorn <@spam@dvanhorn@spam@spamspam_OUTmicrobrix.com> wrote:
>
> Well, the list admin has spoken, and it seems that we both think you're
> mistaken in your perception of what HAI is.

I think the problem lies in the definition of religion.  Ie is it a
belief in a higher power, or is it a rule system that describes how
one should behave?

Alex

2007\01\26@152027 by Howard Winter

face
flavicon
picon face
Alex,

On Fri, 26 Jan 2007 11:32:35 -0800, Alex Harford wrote:

> On 1/26/07, David VanHorn <spamBeGonedvanhornspamKILLspammicrobrix.com> wrote:
> >
> > Well, the list admin has spoken, and it seems that we both think you're
> > mistaken in your perception of what HAI is.
>
> I think the problem lies in the definition of religion.  Ie is it a
> belief in a higher power, or is it a rule system that describes how
> one should behave?

Well to me the latter sounds like a legal system, rather than a religion!

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2007\01\26@152617 by David VanHorn

picon face
>
>
> I think the problem lies in the definition of religion.  Ie is it a
> belief in a higher power, or is it a rule system that describes how
> one should behave?


I would say it's a belief in a higher power.

I mean we have laws that serve as a rule system for how you should behave.

And HAI is neither of those really.  They don't tell you what to do, they
expose you to new ideas.
They deal with ways to communicate in more effective ways (active
listening), and the general principles of honesty in personal and intimate
communication.

2007\01\26@163813 by James Newtons Massmind

face picon face
> > Well, the list admin has spoken, and it seems that we both think
> > you're mistaken in your perception of what HAI is.

Just to be totally clear, I am not asserting that HAI is not a religion. I'm
asserting that nothing that has been said about it so far would make me
think that it was.

> I think the problem lies in the definition of religion.  Ie
> is it a belief in a higher power, or is it a rule system that
> describes how one should behave?

Very good point. I object to the former being discussed on the list. The
latter is generally fine. Exceptions include higher powers that can be
proven to exist (e.g. In my Honda Civic, a Mac truck is a higher power) and
rule systems that do not explain the reasons or demonstrate the
effectiveness of the rules (e.g. thou shalt not allow men to marry men
because of why, exactly?)

If you can base your statements in broadly reproducible, very reliable,
easily measurable, proven fact, I don't care what you say.

"No religion" was the shortest way I could find to express that. If someone
has a better word for it, I'm all ears.

Enough said on this?

---
James Newton: PICList webmaster/Admin
.....jamesnewtonspam_OUTspampiclist.com  1-619-652-0593 phone
http://www.piclist.com/member/JMN-EFP-786
PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com


2007\01\26@173228 by Dario Greggio

face picon face
Alex Harford wrote:

> I think the problem lies in the definition of religion.  Ie is it a
> belief in a higher power, or is it a rule system that describes how
> one should behave?

IMHO, the latter. but meybe I'm just a dreamer...

--
Ciao, Dario il Grande (522-485 a.C.)

2007\01\26@201630 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
>> I think the problem lies in the definition of religion.  Ie
>> is it a belief in a higher power, or is it a rule system that
>> describes how one should behave?

> Very good point. I object to the former being discussed on the list.
> The
> latter is generally fine.

> Exceptions include higher powers that can be
> proven to exist (e.g. In my Honda Civic, a Mac truck is a higher
> power)

> If you can base your statements in broadly reproducible, very
> reliable,
> easily measurable, proven fact, I don't care what you say.

Ah. That's OK then :-).
In my universe, something made it.

When I say "my" I generally also mean the universe that most
scientists accept and which an even greater percentage of laymen
accept both intuitively and if they think about it.

It is not possible in my universe for nothing to have made something
on a net basis. Including the universe itself. On a transitory
balanced basis maybe :-).

This is notwithstanding the apparent fact that 'things' make and
unmake themselves at not too far above the minimum possibly measurable
level all the time. They do this so as to not violate some fundamental
rules which we assert "just are" based on observation. We don't know
why the rules should be or how they came about or even if we have a
complete rule set. We base the rules entirely on a set of best guesses
which we then empirically refined by comparing them with experienced
reality. A key rule that says things MUST make and unmake themselves
all the time spontaneoilsy so that reality can exist as we (think we)
know it is called something like "Henry's you don't really know what's
happening principal". This is a great rule as it matches what we see
very very well, even though it makes absolutely no rational sense at
all. Another great rule is named something like "Einrichs you can't
get there from here, or, at least, not for a while yet relatively
speaking principle"  This asserts that nothing is as it seems if you
are somewhere else instead. This makes no sense at all ogically but
works very well in practice. Einrich says there's no way that anyone
who dreamed all this up would be a gambler but Bell disagreed and said
that two will get you one (or was that 'two are really one'?) and
Einrich says that that's just spooky. The GREAT rule is the QM rule
which says that if a tree falls in the forest then there is no tree
and no forest and certainly no sound until you let the cat out of the
box and find out what really happened whereupon everything collapses
like a wave and we find out who really did it and if the cat is/was
dead, but never in between.

The Danes from Copenhagen (and Elsinore?) wanted to add their bit
about to being or not to being and said that it's meaningless to even
ask the question about what happens in the middle. As an (il)logical
offsping to all this it is utterly apparent to anyone who is willig to
examine with rigour the reality that we think we see around us that
more is happening that can possibly be not accounted for (let alone
accounted for) within the system as we know it and that there MUST (if
any of this is to make sense)(even though none of it does) an infinite
regress of other systems which our divides into as we progress along
the lines of dead/alive cats, get thee to a nunnery or no, to being
and not to being and their ilk. This is of course the most extreme of
science fiction or fantasy to most minds incoluding most scientists so
we can easily ignore the beliefs of thos scientists who are most aware
of what must be true if the rest of what we belief is true.

This all makes perfect sense to everyone and we accept it as fact, as
iot obviously is, even though we have no ability to produce the
slightest "proof" or "reaosn" for it all being other than it is, and
any sane (wo)man can see it is so. Those who disagree are simply
classed as heretics to be casts into outer darkness, which cannot
exist as 'outer" has no meaning in the universe context.

Fortunately all thsi rubbish of phantasms that we build our fairy
castle of realities on is hard science which we can measure and test
and be confident about (Hookey Walker!) so we can be free from
religion and all it's uncertainties. For those who are warm and cozy
inside the testable reality we exist in - good luck - you'll need it
:-).

Summary:    The hard reality we see around us is clearly seen to be
cloud cuckoo land if we peer behind the props. We may decide to
blinker ourselves and demand of ourselves that we believe it is all
testable and hard science based. We may decide to simply ignore those
who can demonstrate that we don't know squat, and that no matter what
reality is, it ain't what we demand it is. In doing so we build a
system so much more bizarre and so much more impossible than that of
any religion while being totally unable to allow ourselves to apply an
equal set of tests to our "reality" as we apply to them. Equal
opportunity and equal thinking are jokes we make to hide from what we
refuse to know.



       Russell

2007\01\26@201630 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
>> I think the problem lies in the definition of religion.  Ie is it a
>> belief in a higher power, or is it a rule system that describes how
>> one should behave?

> I would say it's a belief in a higher power.

So any discussions about AA matters would be forbidden here then ? :-)



       Russell

2007\01\26@232327 by James Newtons Massmind

face picon face
> >> I think the problem lies in the definition of religion.  
> Ie is it a
> >> belief in a higher power, or is it a rule system that
> describes how
> >> one should behave?
>
> > I would say it's a belief in a higher power.
>
> So any discussions about AA matters would be forbidden here then ? :-)
>


<grin> How did I know you were going to post that?

"Higher power" (as you WELL know) can be defined in terms that have nothing
to do with religion or the super-natural. As I said in another post, when
I'm driving my Civic, the 18 wheeler is my higher power.

Ok, here is the story of how a cranky old crusty bastard saved my life:

When I was still drinking, many years ago, and I realized that it was
killing me, I went to AA meetings. Actually my wife and a 700lb Samoan
police officer convinced me to start... But that is another story.

Now, the blue book says "higher power" but in the meetings they pretty much
always say the G word. And I can't personally accept anything that isn't
logical and so on so I started thinking this whole thing was pretty
hopeless. How was I going to turn to... That G thing... When I couldn't
believe in such a thing?

Eventually, they ask me what my deal was, and I started off with the
standard "My name is James, and I'm an alcoholic... " then went on to
explain my dilemma. Various people at the meeting assured me it didn't have
to be the Christian or Catholic versions. One guy explained that he prayed
to the sun. I guess I didn't look hopeful, because eventually this old, mean
looking guy in the back of the room cleared his throat and spoke up, saying
these words (I swear this is no shit) "Son, 'you think if everybody in this
room got together, we could kick your ass?"

That took me back a step, but I answered that I guess that would be the
case. There must have been 30 guys in there and some of them were NOT small.

So then he said: "So does that make us a higher power? I think so. And when
all these others are turning to their all powerful lords and saviors, you
poor bastard, you will just have to come to us. Now shut up and get on with
the program."

And in a matter of seconds, I learned to be humble, to accept the will of
others, to fear my "God" and heed his word. It was an enormous relief for me
to realize, finally, that I was not the most impressive thing in the world.
That I was not expected to have all the answers or to win in every case. I
know it may sound strange, but up to that point, I didn't really understand
all that.

And I truly, truly believe that he saved my life.

All without anything that I couldn't see, feel, measure, study and even
reproduce.

Amazing huh?

---
James.


2007\01\27@004433 by Vitaliy

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face
Russell McMahon wrote:

[snip]
{Quote hidden}

[snip, snip, snip...]

Russell, you make my head hurt sometimes. :)

Vitaliy

2007\01\27@004609 by Vitaliy

flavicon
face
James Newtons Massmind wrote:

> Ok, here is the story of how a cranky old crusty bastard saved my life:
[snip]

This is an awesome story, James! :D

Thanks for sharing...

Best regards,

Vitaliy

2007\01\27@014617 by David VanHorn

picon face
>
>
> So then he said: "So does that make us a higher power? I think so. And
> when
> all these others are turning to their all powerful lords and saviors, you
> poor bastard, you will just have to come to us. Now shut up and get on
> with
> the program."



I love it!  :)

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