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'[OT]:: Auto mythology a dream come true'
2007\09\04@215425 by Russell McMahon

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A zillion sportyish cars from all ages sequestered in a dark and dusty
Portugese "barn". Some barn.

   > http://www.intuh.net/barnfinds/index.htm


Hard to credit, but looks real. More detail would be interesting.

Took me (stupidly) a while to realise that you click on the pictures
:-).

Kill the Hillman quickly before the light gets to it and it starts to
multiply!!!
I'll have (peasant) the Scorpione and the Cooper S, please.


           Russell



From: "Bill Roberts"
Subject: Auto mythology a dream come true



> http://www.intuh.net/barnfinds/index.htm

2007\09\04@225252 by Alex Harford

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On 9/4/07, Russell McMahon <spam_OUTapptechTakeThisOuTspamparadise.net.nz> wrote:
> A zillion sportyish cars from all ages sequestered in a dark and dusty
> Portugese "barn". Some barn.
>
>     > http://www.intuh.net/barnfinds/index.htm
>
>
> Hard to credit, but looks real. More detail would be interesting.

http://www.snopes.com/photos/automobiles/barnfind.asp

{Quote hidden}

> -

2007\09\04@225327 by Zik Saleeba

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Sorry, it's not true.

http://www.snopes.com/photos/automobiles/barnfind.asp

Cheers,
Zik

On 9/5/07, Russell McMahon <.....apptechKILLspamspam@spam@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> -

2007\09\04@234548 by Russell McMahon

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> Sorry, it's not true.
>
> http://www.snopes.com/photos/automobiles/barnfind.asp

What I wondered about was if the collection existed at all.
That's about as true as I hoped, so it is true :-).
ie I saw no text about the purported origin apart from the "barnfinds"
heading, which told little.

So, it appears to be a genuine collection of cars in Portugal.
I find the snopes version less than fully likely in fact :-) - eg "...
simply hired a photographer ...". The person who collected those
images had a camera in their hand, but they were not a commercial
photographer by any normal meaning of the name :-). ie it doesn't look
like a photo record made by the owner paying someone cash to make it.


       Russell


{Quote hidden}

2007\09\05@151747 by Peter Todd

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On Wed, Sep 05, 2007 at 03:45:09PM +1200, Russell McMahon wrote:
{Quote hidden}

Having worked with rich people with no free time I wouldn't be at all
surprised if the photographer was a professional but didn't have the
resources or time to do anything more than simple insurance
documentation. I'm sure he spent ages carefully getting boring shots of
each and every car but had absolutely no reason to worry about anything
more than that.

Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if there's a whole market for
photographers specializing in insurance documentation... Look at how
much of a factory operation wedding and portrait photography can be.

- --
http://petertodd.org
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2007\09\05@185533 by Howard Winter

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Rusell,

Amazing!

On Wed, 05 Sep 2007 13:54:38 +1200, Russell McMahon wrote:

> Kill the Hillman quickly before the light gets to it and it starts to
> multiply!!!

LOL!  I don't know what a Hillman California is - it looks like it may be an Imp wth a laid-back attitude?

> I'll have (peasant) the Scorpione and the Cooper S, please.

Which Cooper S?  The one half way down (reg: RR-25-67) or the one with the white roof towards the bottom?  The latter is billed as "Austin Mini Cooper", but it's
too late for that, the Austin and Morris names had been dropped - the badge says "Mini" on one side, Mk.II on the other, and "Cooper" in the middle.   You can just
see the red "S" in the chequered background of the middle section.  And it's got twin tanks, which means it's certainly an S.  You can have the earlier one higher up,
I'll have that one, and the Lotus Elan +2, and the black Elan soft-top.  Oh, and the Europa - I wonder if it's the one I helped build?  :-)

The one billed "It's a car. An old one" looks like it could be a Karmann Ghia, but it's hard to tell from just the back.

Thanks for pointing us at this!

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2007\09\05@223651 by David VanHorn

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This weekend, I saw probably a dozen things that looked like a BD-5 on
wheels rolling thru Muncie. (of all places..)

Turns out they are "pulse" motorcycles.  Very cool looking, I'd drive one.

2007\09\05@225027 by David VanHorn

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This weekend, I saw probably a dozen things that looked like a BD-5 on
wheels rolling thru Muncie. (of all places..)

Turns out they are "pulse" motorcycles.  Very cool looking, I'd drive one.

2007\09\06@072433 by Russell McMahon

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Like these ?

       http://www.chinesemotorcycledealers.co.uk/pulse_motorcycles.html

> This weekend, I saw probably a dozen things that looked like a BD-5
> on
> wheels rolling thru Muncie. (of all places..)
>
> Turns out they are "pulse" motorcycles.  Very cool looking, I'd
> drive one.

I think I'd prefer a BD-5 (homebuilt jet or RE aircraft)

       http://www.bd5.com/

       Russell




2007\09\06@074905 by Zik Saleeba

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On 9/6/07, Russell McMahon <.....apptechKILLspamspam.....paradise.net.nz> wrote:
> Like these ?
>
>         http://www.chinesemotorcycledealers.co.uk/pulse_motorcycles.html

I think he means these:

http://www.agbob.com/PulseMotorcycle.html

Cheers,
Zik

2007\09\06@081731 by David VanHorn

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These:  http://www.autocycles.org/100.html

2007\09\06@185042 by Russell McMahon

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>> Like these ?

>>
>> http://www.chinesemotorcycledealers.co.uk/pulse_motorcycles.html

> I think he means these:

> http://www.agbob.com/PulseMotorcycle.html

That makes more sense.
AND the bodywork was in fact designed by Jim Bede who designed the
BD-5.
Alas, despite being called a motorcycle in almost every reference they
are in fact cars in the key way that counts. While they balance on two
wheels in a straight line, they lean outwards (not inwards) on bends
and rests on an outside outrigger wheel when cornering. So, for
practical purposes when cornering they are a *3* wheeler car.



           Russell

2007\09\06@195903 by Richard Prosser

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On 07/09/07, Russell McMahon <EraseMEapptechspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTparadise.net.nz> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

OK Russell, - I'll Bite

Why do these (supposively) lean outward on cornering while motorcycles
(etc.) lean inward? Surely the gyroscopic forces resulting from the
wheels changing direction is the same inboth cases. A car leans
outward due to the body weight and the suspension, but a motorbike
with a small enclosurer would lean inward wouldn't it? And isn't that
what we have here with 2 extra stabilising wheels?

RP

2007\09\06@203142 by Zik Saleeba

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On 9/7/07, Richard Prosser <rhprosserspamspam_OUTgmail.com> wrote:
> Why do these (supposively) lean outward on cornering while motorcycles
> (etc.) lean inward?

Bikes lean because the rider makes them lean through a combination of
shifting their body weight and counter-steering. The bike turns
because it's leaning - it doesn't lean because it's turning.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countersteering
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_and_motorcycle_dynamics

A bike with outrigger wheels can't lean so with the acceleration force
acting from the CG of the vehicle it tends to try to lean outwards. In
a normal bike the lean makes the force vector align with the vertical
axis of the bike and the force meets the road directly through the
tyres - which it has to or the bike would fall over. Stopping a bike
from leaning by adding outrigger wheel basically turns it into a car
with "trolley physics" rather than a bike with "leaning physics".

Incidentally bikes with sidecars have this same issue. For this reason
they're considered very strange to ride by most riders. The physics is
totally different from a normal bike.

Cheers,
Zik

2007\09\06@210949 by Richard Prosser

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Thanks, it sort of makes sense now.
IIRC some sidecars have a pivot so the bike can lean while the sidecar
stays upright.

RP

On 07/09/07, Zik Saleeba <@spam@zikKILLspamspamzikzak.net> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> -

2007\09\06@211959 by Jake Anderson

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Richard Prosser wrote:
{Quote hidden}

Its not the bike that leans into the corner, the rider pushes it into
the corner.
If you cant lean it into the corner then its not a "real" bike.

Like watching a kid ride a bike with training wheels on, it almost makes
me cry. You see them turning like they are driving a car because the
parents have all the back wheels touching the ground. You just know the
kid is going to have some major problems when the parent decides to
remove the wheels.

2007\09\06@233735 by Nate Duehr

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On Sep 6, 2007, at 6:31 PM, Zik Saleeba wrote:

> Incidentally bikes with sidecars have this same issue. For this reason
> they're considered very strange to ride by most riders. The physics is
> totally different from a normal bike.

Sidecars really change the dynamics of riding a motorcycle -- it's  
highly advised to get some specific training on emergency handling of  
a bike with a sidecar from an expert instructor, before having to do  
it for real.

The sidecar limits your options, and it makes a pretty big difference  
if it's loaded with a passenger or empty, too.

I have a friend who's ridden a BMW with a sidecar for many years...  
he's an accomplished racer, and rides just about everything else, but  
due to some leg problems, as he got older he added the sidecar, plus  
he uses it to carry camping equipment.

Many people ask him about adding sidecars to their bikes, because  
they know he rides with one regularly.  He tells anyone considering a  
sidecar "no" unless they're willing to go through some professional  
training and "un-learn" some things they've learned from years of  
normal motorcycle riding.

--
Nate Duehr
spamBeGonenatespamBeGonespamnatetech.com



2007\09\07@082950 by Russell McMahon

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>> Why do these (supposively) lean outward on cornering while
>> motorcycles
>> (etc.) lean inward?

Answered well by others.
BUT
Try the following and if you haven't already experienced this it may
change your understanding and impression of two wheeled stability
issues.

1.    On a two wheeled handlebar steered vehicle (motorcycle, bicycle,
...)

NOTE: This activity will NOT make you fall off if instructions are
followed but will surprise even many very competent and experienced
riders.

- Travel on a flat smooth surface at modest speed.
- Place palms of hands flat against handlebars on normal sides (so you
can press but not grasp the handgrip).
- Rest palms firmly and with equal pressure.
- Now, press one hand (say the right) slowly forwards while not
leaning the vehicle.
- Note what happens.
Which way does the steering turn?
What does the vehicle do?
Are you amazed?
Why not?

Report back.

2.    Don't try this at home.

It is unlikely that anyone can follow these instructions fully without
falling off.

OK, you're going to ignore instructions and try this aren't you?
KNOW now that you will fall off.
Be prepared for the consequences.
YOU are responsible for anything that happens here.

On a bicycle only.
NOT a motorbike.
On a softish surface.
Wearing old clothes.
Wearing a helmet wouldn't hurt.
Only if you are prepared to fall off

**** NOT ON A MOTORBIKE ****

**** YOU ARE ABOUT TO FALL OFF ****

- Travel on a level surface at slowish speed.
- Place right hand on left handlebar
- Place left hand on right handlebar.
(arms now crossed)
- If you have not yet fallen off, try and steer in a curve to right
and left.
- If you have not yet fallen off (liar) turn in a 360 degree circle to
left and then to right.

Report back.


           Russell


2007\09\07@093129 by Russell McMahon

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John and Val and Kristin and even Rod may recognise their roles in the
following.

____________________________

>> Incidentally bikes with sidecars have this same issue. For this
>> reason
>> they're considered very strange to ride by most riders. The physics
>> is
>> totally different from a normal bike.

They ARE very strange by any normal standards. The best you can hope
for with a sidecar is to understand that they do very strange things.
This is not just "different". This is 'so wierdly different that you
can get in situations where the physics take over and you are forced
to do things you really really really don't want to do." As I wrote
that I was considering whether the same could be said of a motorcycle
where it will eg leave the road or have the wheels skid from under it
or high side or ... if you put it in situations that demand this
action. Also, is it just that I haven't developed enough expertise yet
to have grown into having the sidecar as an extension of my body, as a
motorcycle became in time. But, I think not. A side car is modal and
will transit from a stable state where you can more or less do what
you want with it to, instantaneously, a state where you MUST do what
it demands of you or it will fall over. A sidecar is actually safest
and most controllable when the motorcycle is on two wheels with the
chair 'flying'. At that stage you are again a motorcycle and you can
do proper things again. But there is an outer limit to this mode where
you roll over on the non chair side.

> Sidecars really change the dynamics of riding a motorcycle -- it's
> highly advised to get some specific training on emergency handling
> of
> a bike with a sidecar from an expert instructor, before having to do
> it for real.

I agree absolutely.
You have to experience the evil to believe what a chair can do.

For a number of years I had a trials sidecar which fitted my TY250
trials bike. I think there may have only been 2 in the country - built
by a rural engineering company after the owner saw them overseas. In
time he sold them and I bought one some years later. I used the TY250
as my town bike. Some town bike :-). A wheelstand every gear from a
green light and you are doing 30 mph when you hit top gear :-). I
sometimes fitted the sidecar and rode it in the city 'just for fun' -
often enough when it was fitted I rode it to work. I carried a sand
bag in the chair as ballast when I had no 'swinger'. [Careful now].
All my motorcycling friends who saw the sidecar wanted to try it and
many did. Every one had tales of its great evil. Even after the direst
warning and as much instruction as you can give to somebody who
refuses to realise how serious the warnings are they ALL tried very
hard to kill themselves. Suddenly cross a road at a curve, ride up
onto the footpath, down strangers' driveways, through a (fortunately)
small tree and much more was all in the day's work.

> The sidecar limits your options, and it makes a pretty big
> difference
> if it's loaded with a passenger or empty, too.

Yes.
With, say, the chair on the left.
Turning right like a car is fine enough as the chair is forced onto
the ground. The outfit will crab and hop impressively in this mode but
it's safe (enough).
Turning left like a car the bike leans right and is resisted in its
outwards lean by the moment of the chair. This is OK as long as the
chair moment is enough to keep the chair wheel on the ground. For a
slow turn or a large radius corner you can choose to lean further
right than the turn forces you and loft the chair. This is easy when
the chair is empty and with someone in the chair only a matter of
extra strength to hold the steering which tends to react some force as
you turn it to and fro through the balance point. In practice, as long
as it doesn't matter where the bike goes or as long as you are going
slowly you can do really impressive things with the chair in the air
to 45 degrees plus and total control. You can look like a consumare
expert while actually only being somewhat experienced. I have a photo
of me riding the outfit (not on a road) on two wheels at a highish
angle at slow speed with my then preganant wife in the chair. This was
so easily and safely achieved that I did not consider that this was an
unacceptable activity.

BUT on a fast left hand bend if the bend tightens up, to get enough
turn you need to loft the chair and if too tight you start to roll
right over to the right. The ONLY solution is to steer right. In an
emergency you hold it at the tipping point and the outfit bucks and
hops across the road with the chair lifting a bit and steering right
more than you want. It doesn't matter what is to the right - you are
committed and have no choice - you either roll or go right. I have
ridden up a strangers driveway as the best choice on a left hand bend
that caught me napping. A friend rode over a tree and another onto the
footpath in a shopping centre. The evilness and sudden onset has to be
experienced to be believed.

Long long ago (1978 probably) we were riding through a holiday
subdivision (Pauanui). I was in the chair and an enthusiastic friend
was driving. I was at full lean to the left out of the chair and he
was cornering left. We came around a corner in a yet to be built in
street and they had planted small trees in the road centre. I could
not sit up due to the cornering forces and he could not turn sharper,
and if I had sat up we would have rolled. He swept me horizontally
through the first of the trees. If it had had a steel stake (eg
Warratah) in it as some such di then I probably wouldn't be writing
this. It didn't have and I just scythed it down with my body :-) !!!!.
Lesson learned!

{Quote hidden}

Indeed. AND it wrecks the abilities of a good bike. A rigid chair
outfit will corner in an inferior manner to a chair-less bike. Racing
outfits are purpose designed to take advantage of the 3 wheeled
stability when it's there. But they still do bizarre things and riders
still die. The worst thing the swinger can do is to chicken out and
stop leaning. The lives of both people are in his hands when he needs
to be leaning out for stability.

The Pulse "motorcycles" lean outwards against an air sprung outrigger
on each side so they NEVER have the lofting problem. They are a 3
wheeled car with the 3rd wheel on right or on left as required. If
desired they could be arranged to lift both outriggers at any speed
and corner like a true motorcycle. The large size probably makes this
unnatractive.

Motorcucle tyres and car tyres have different forces applied during
cornering. A motorcycle will ALWAYS react cornering forces down
through the centreline except when sliding with particla traction -
something planned in competition but not usually on road. A car reacts
cornering forces at an angle though the tyre tread and requires
different tyre contruction for optimuj performance.



       Russell




2007\09\07@094751 by Michael Rigby-Jones

picon face


>-----Original Message-----
>From: TakeThisOuTpiclist-bouncesEraseMEspamspam_OUTmit.edu [RemoveMEpiclist-bouncesspamTakeThisOuTmit.edu]
>On Behalf Of Russell McMahon
>Sent: 07 September 2007 14:20
>To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
>Subject: Re: [OT]:: Auto mythology a dream come true
>
>I agree absolutely.
>You have to experience the evil to believe what a chair can do.

I have a solution:

http://www.armec.com/sidewinder.html

Regards

Mike

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2007\09\07@125121 by David VanHorn

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> - Travel on a level surface at slowish speed.
> - Place right hand on left handlebar
> - Place left hand on right handlebar.
> (arms now crossed)
> - If you have not yet fallen off, try and steer in a curve to right
> and left.
> - If you have not yet fallen off (liar) turn in a 360 degree circle to
> left and then to right.
>
> Report back.


I used to do this frequently.
I don't remember falling in trying it, but I was careful.

2007\09\07@132547 by Nate Duehr

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Russell McMahon wrote:

> NOTE: This activity will NOT make you fall off if instructions are
> followed but will surprise even many very competent and experienced
> riders.
>
> - Travel on a flat smooth surface at modest speed.
> - Place palms of hands flat against handlebars on normal sides (so you
> can press but not grasp the handgrip).
> - Rest palms firmly and with equal pressure.
> - Now, press one hand (say the right) slowly forwards while not
> leaning the vehicle.
> - Note what happens.
> Which way does the steering turn?
> What does the vehicle do?
> Are you amazed?
> Why not?
>
> Report back.

You gotta love gyroscopic precession!  :-)

Nate

2007\09\07@183944 by Russell McMahon

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Could you turn a 360 degree circle while holding opposing hand grips?

> I used to do this frequently.
> I don't remember falling in trying it, but I was careful.

I imagine that one could train the brain to do this, but for an
experienced cyclist the instinctive 'corrective' responses are almost
always overwhelmingly terminal to the journey.


       Russell

2007\09\07@185130 by David VanHorn

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On 9/7/07, Russell McMahon <apptechEraseMEspam.....paradise.net.nz> wrote:
> Could you turn a 360 degree circle while holding opposing hand grips?
>
> > I used to do this frequently.
> > I don't remember falling in trying it, but I was careful.
>
> I imagine that one could train the brain to do this, but for an
> experienced cyclist the instinctive 'corrective' responses are almost
> always overwhelmingly terminal to the journey.

Well, I used to race, and spent several hours a day on the bike.
But then again, I don't have much problem with control reversal on
radio control things either.

2007\09\10@183424 by Howard Winter

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Russell,

On Sat, 08 Sep 2007 00:30:09 +1200, Russell McMahon wrote:

{Quote hidden}

Been there, done that, got the mouthful of handlebars!  You do the strangest things when you're a kid... luckily I kept my teeth, but that was more luck than
judgement!

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2007\09\10@185408 by Howard Winter

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Russell,

On Sat, 08 Sep 2007 01:19:42 +1200, Russell McMahon wrote:
>...
> >> Incidentally bikes with sidecars have this same issue. For this
> >> reason
> >> they're considered very strange to ride by most riders. The physics
> >> is
> >> totally different from a normal bike.
>
> They ARE very strange by any normal standards.

Indeed, but not as strange as the UK legal system...

Many years ago, in Britain you could ride a motorcycle at age 16, a car at 17.  If you hadn't passed your bike test, you were restricted to an engine of less than
250cc *unless* it had a sidecar, when there was no limitation!  Presumably some idiot thought that the difficult thing about a bike was keeping it upright - with
three wheels it can't fall over, so it's easy, right?  Tragically, wrong...

When I was 16 I got a Triumph Tiger Cub (200cc single) for my birthday, and a few months later my best friend at school bought a Triumph Thunderbird (500cc
twin) with a sidecar.  Neither of us had passed the test, although I had done the RAC/ACU motorcycle training scheme, but Mick had had no formal training
whatsoever.  He rode it for several months, and I had told him that the correct way to rig it was with the bike leaning away from the chair, whereas he had it
leaning towards it, but hey, we were teenage bikers, who listens to advice?

At some time during the Christmas holidays, he was riding with his girlfriend as pillion, with the chair empty.  Apparently he went round a left-hander, the chair
lifted, and as you descibed the only thing to do was to turn right - straight into an oncoming lorry.  He died in hospital a few hours later.

RIP Mick Druce, 1953-1971.



Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2007\09\10@195234 by Russell McMahon

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> At some time during the Christmas holidays, he was riding with his
> girlfriend as pillion, with the chair empty.  Apparently he went
> round a left-hander, the chair
> lifted, and as you described the only thing to do was to turn
> right - straight into an oncoming lorry.  He died in hospital a few
> hours later.
>
> RIP Mick Druce, 1953-1971.

Sorry to hear of that, even so many years on. Not using his girlfriend
as ballast was obviously unwise albeit understandable. The alternative
is to let the outfit roll, and that may even be the superior option in
some cases, but I can't imagine ever having the ability to do so
almost regardless of the alternative.

On reflection, it would make some sense to have the chair on the right
on left hand drive roads. That way the chair's evil mode puts you onto
your side of the road - but you have less time and distance before you
hit a curve, power pole, parked car etc.

Long ago, on a motorcycle, when I had misjudged the tightness of a
corner on a winding sealed country coast road, I had the alternative
of cornering on the wrong side of a blind corner or leaving the road
semi-tangentially. If I stayed on the road and there was an unseen car
coming I would have met it head on. In the spur of the moment decision
I chose to leave the road and take my chances with the rough and a
possible drop off onto the adjacent sea shore. I came off in typically
spectacular fashion but with little personal injury and bike and I
remained on the sea side. There was no opposing vehicle. I could have
cornered safely on the wrong side of the road, but I'm still happy
with the choice I made. The motorcycle had a large and solid pressed
steel mudguard (similar to the Thunderbird guards AFAIR) and it was
deformed nicely onto the wheel so that it took me much levering and
bashing with locally acquired pieces of wood and rocks to get
clearance for the wheel. In due course I continued my journey somewhat
wiser.

I once did similarly on a gravel road but the choice there was to lay
the bike down or proceed up a bank braking. Left hand downhill off
camber gravel, whoops. A little friendly competition with a friend who
I had been trail riding with for several days at that stage may have
had something to do with the speed that I entered the corner. He was
riding IIRC an Ariel 200 and I a Jawa 175, but downhill anything can
got too fast. My brain said that cornering was not an option. Laying
it down would probably have still taken me into the bank. I stayed
aboard and hit a wooden safety fence at the top of the bank. The front
axle was held in the fork by a pinch bolt arrangement allowing the
axle to pull through the fork end when the bolt was loosened - or if
enough side force was applied if it was still tightened. The accident
supplied enough side force :-). One front fork was bent right off the
fork end and was beyond local rebending. We dismantled the forks, took
the miscreant to the next local garage and borrowed an oxy torch to
bend it "straight" again. It walked funny after that but was straight
enough to allow reassembly. The handlebars had a 30 degree odd twist
when the wheel was straight ahead but it handled well enough. We went
off-road riding for a day or two after that and then headed back to
Auckland about 70 miles away. Half way home a traffic officer waved me
down and wrote me a ticket plus a vehicle-not-fit-to-be-on-the-road
notice. Special form that I've never seen before or since. "I haven't
had to use one of these for a long time" he said. Pillioned home with
my friend and retrieved the bike subsequently. My letter convinced the
authorities that, having ridden the bike for several days off-road,
and having got that far, it was in fact road worthy, despite its funny
appearance, and they let me off the ticket.




           Russell

2007\09\11@030637 by wouter van ooijen

face picon face
> It is unlikely that anyone can follow these instructions
> fully without falling off.
>...
> - Travel on a level surface at slowish speed.
> - Place right hand on left handlebar
> - Place left hand on right handlebar.
> (arms now crossed)

It becomes very easy when your arms touch at the crosspoint.

Related: sit on your luggage carrier (the thingie behind your saddle).
Cycling along is easy, even releasing the handlebars is not that
difficult. Now try to hold you saddle!

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu



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