Searching \ for '[OT:]Plated through holes in a circuit board' in subject line. ()
Make payments with PayPal - it's fast, free and secure! Help us get a faster server
FAQ page: www.piclist.com/techref/pcbs.htm?key=circuit+board
Search entire site for: 'Plated through holes in a circuit board'.

Exact match. Not showing close matches.
PICList Thread
'[OT:]Plated through holes in a circuit board'
2005\10\01@124608 by L. Barta

flavicon
face
Hi,

I've designed a pretty complex board and would like to know that the design
works well before I order a large quantity
made at a board house.

The problems I'm faced with are these:

I plan to make the prototype board at home and this board has many holes
that need to be plated through.
Some of these holes will be very difficult, or impossible, to access after
components are placed on the board (no chance
of being able to solder connections on both sides of the circuit board). I'd
like to be sure that my design works like it
should before I send it out to a board house. The board has about 260 plated
through holes.

I'd like to know if there is a method or product I can use to plate through
these holes on this first board.

Thanks for responding!

Lauren

2005\10\01@135947 by Matt Pobursky

flavicon
face
If you are ultimately going to make "a large quantity" of these boards then you're almost foolish not to have a small handful of *real*
prototype boards made from a real PCB vendor such as Olimex,
PCBFabExpress, etc. Nothing you'll make yourself will really prove out
your PCB design like a professionally fabricated board will.

I personally like PCBFabExpress (http://www.pcbfabexpress.com) and have
found them least restrictive of all the small quantity PCB vendors
while still maintaining excellent quality, pricing and delivery times.
1 week and about $100 will usually get you 5 pieces of a real PCB (2
layer) with silkscreen and soldermask.
I use them extensively in my consulting business to prototype boards
before we go off and order production quantities.

Matt Pobursky
Maximum Performance Systems

On Sat, 1 Oct 2005 10:46:04 -0600, L. Barta wrote:
{Quote hidden}

2005\10\01@174212 by Spehro Pefhany

picon face
At 10:46 AM 10/1/2005 -0600, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

Strongly suggest you simply order a prototype or two made, from your Gerber
and Excellon files, as close to the final specifications as practical.
That includes solder mask and silk screen layers.

>Best regards,

Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..."            "The Journey is the reward"
spam_OUTspeffTakeThisOuTspaminterlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com
->> Inexpensive test equipment & parts http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZspeff


2005\10\02@005335 by David Schmidt

flavicon
face
www.barebonespcb.com is good for this kind of thing too.
Only trouble is they electroless tin plate and don't reflow so shelf life
isn't great but this shouldn't be a problem for you since you're likely to
stuff right away.

To minimize your cost, panelize a couple of your designs together so you can
knock out a 'proto' PCB run for all that you're currently working on at
once.
Sometimes the price break in 'sq in' is such that you can incorporate
another board on the panel for essentially free (with PCBexpress anyways)

Dave

> If you are ultimately going to make "a large quantity" of these boards
> then you're almost foolish not to have a small handful of *real*
> prototype boards made from a real PCB vendor

2005\10\02@093943 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
David Schmidt wrote:

> To minimize your cost, panelize a couple of your designs together so you can
> knock out a 'proto' PCB run for all that you're currently working on at
> once.

Yes, and if you're not restricted in drill holes count (or have still room
within the restriction), place a line of small holes on the borders between
the individual designs (something like a perforation). Helps with
separating them later.

Gerhard

2005\10\02@101119 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> Yes, and if you're not restricted in drill holes count (or
> have still room
> within the restriction), place a line of small holes on the
> borders between
> the individual designs (something like a perforation). Helps with
> separating them later.

Or go with Olimex, who will do the separating for you :)

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


2005\10\02@102929 by Victor Faria

picon face
You may also want to look at
http://www.futurlec.com/PCBService.shtml
I used them the boards came out ok but their service took a bit longer then
I had hoped for!.
But they do have the better price.
regards
victor
{Original Message removed}

2005\10\02@210636 by Bob Axtell

face picon face
I understand why saving money is important, but your priorities are
misplaced. There is NO substitute for obtaining one or two EXACT
prototypes when testing a design. The PCB layout itself is an important
part of the design.

The best way to do this is to use a prototype shop that will make
an exact PCB. If you look carefully, you can locate a reasonable
shop.

Purchasing 1000 PCBs that are not right is very costly. The chance
of you getting the layout correct the first time is impossible; most
commercial designs have 7-8 versions before committing to a
volume purchase.

--Bob


L. Barta wrote:

{Quote hidden}

--
Note: To protect our network,
attachments must be sent to
.....attachKILLspamspam@spam@engineer.cotse.net .
1-866-263-5745 USA/Canada
http://beam.to/azengineer

2005\10\02@213513 by Richard Prosser

picon face
Can I quote you to my project manager??
RP :-)

>....snip
>most
> commercial designs have 7-8 versions before committing to a
> volume purchase.
>
> --Bob

2005\10\03@024114 by Bob Axtell

face picon face
Richard Prosser wrote:

>Can I quote you to my project manager??
>RP :-)
>
>  
>
>>....snip
>>most
>>commercial designs have 7-8 versions before committing to a
>>volume purchase.
>>
>>--Bob
>>    
>>
>
>  
>
Certainly. Never seen it any other way.

--
Note: To protect our network,
attachments must be sent to
attachspamKILLspamengineer.cotse.net .
1-866-263-5745 USA/Canada
http://beam.to/azengineer

2005\10\03@073745 by olin piclist

face picon face
Richard Prosser wrote:
> Bob Axtel wrote:
>> most
>> commercial designs have 7-8 versions before committing to a
>> volume purchase.
>
> Can I quote you to my project manager??

Bob has apparently had different experiences than I.  I see about half that
as the norm.  Usually only one respin is needed to get the circuit and board
just right.  The extra respins are due to inevitable requirement changes as
the product plans evolve.  This has much more to do with how much the
company knows what they are doing and how well they manage the new product
process than correcting design errors.


*****************************************************************
Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts
(978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com

2005\10\03@102231 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
It largely depends on the product. Normally 2 to 3 relayout is the norm in
my company. That means before we order board from approved
vendor, we need to have 2 to 3 prototype PCBs from fast non-approved
vendors. And before that, I usually have working hard-wired board.

My first design in the company was a level sensor and it failed
almost all EMC tests and it took me three months and 4 relayouts to
solve the problem. I believe Bob is doing more advanced stuff so
it is quite possible 7-8 versions are required. Space constraint and
mechanical constraint as well as EMC are the major factors for us.
For product needs approval, standard compliance is also a major
issue.

I hear that some of the high-end  flex PCB can cost more than thousand
bucks in the prototype stages. It will be quite costly to have several
iterations of PCB designs.

Regards,
Xiaofan

On 10/3/05, Olin Lathrop <.....olin_piclistKILLspamspam.....embedinc.com> wrote:
>
> Bob has apparently had different experiences than I.  I see about half that
> as the norm.  Usually only one respin is needed to get the circuit and board
> just right.  The extra respins are due to inevitable requirement changes as
> the product plans evolve.  This has much more to do with how much the
> company knows what they are doing and how well they manage the new product
> process than correcting design errors.
>

2005\10\03@105846 by Spehro Pefhany

picon face


>I hear that some of the high-end  flex PCB can cost more than thousand
>bucks in the prototype stages. It will be quite costly to have several
>iterations of PCB designs.

Here's a message from a few years ago in another forum (these are bare
boards, BTW):

> For those that impress easily the most expensive rigid flex board I
> ever worked on went out the door at $22,000 dollars US each for 6
> prototypes. Not for the buget minded in any sense of the word.
> Would it surprise anyone if I told you that these were sold to Hughes
> Aircraft Aerospace division ?

That's $132,000 for 6 pieces.

There are stories of much bigger costs from ordering *without* making
a proper prototype. 8-(

Best regards,

Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..."            "The Journey is the reward"
EraseMEspeffspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTinterlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com
->> Inexpensive test equipment & parts http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZspeff


2005\10\03@131158 by Howard Winter

face
flavicon
picon face
Bob,

On Sun, 02 Oct 2005 18:06:19 -0700, Bob Axtell wrote:
>...<
> Purchasing 1000 PCBs that are not right is very costly. The chance
> of you getting the layout correct the first time is impossible; most
> commercial designs have 7-8 versions before committing to a
> volume purchase.

I can well believe this - and in that case, why do a lot of the board houses have the so-called Prototype
minimum of 5 pieces?  I know Olimex will do one-offs, but most of the others won't, which seems a huge waste
of money.  If you discover problems only "using" one board at each iteration, you have 7 * 4 = 28 wasted
boards!

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2005\10\03@133158 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face

On Oct 3, 2005, at 10:11 AM, Howard Winter wrote:

>> most commercial designs have 7-8 versions before committing to a
>> volume purchase.

That seems high to me.  I think we were more line line with Olin's
estimate last time I paid attention (but that was quite a long time ago,
when boards had far fewer layers...)

>
> why do a lot of the board houses have the so-called Prototype
> minimum of 5 pieces?

It makes the price per board seem better.  They wouldn't be able
to charge you much less for a single board anyway...
(It's certainly easy to find use for 5 boards if they're somewhat
close to working.  A board with a bunch of jumpers added is MUCH
better than nothing for the software guys to start hacking on.)

BillW

2005\10\03@135849 by Bob Axtell

face picon face
Howard, I've never thought one was enough.
Usually, there are people testing on several fronts:
EMC, UL/CSE, active hardware circuitry, finally firmware.

One is enough ONLY if you are a one-man band and you
can order the tests.

--Bob

Howard Winter wrote:

{Quote hidden}

--
Note: To protect our network,
attachments must be sent to
attachspamspam_OUTengineer.cotse.net .
1-866-263-5745 USA/Canada
http://beam.to/azengineer

2005\10\03@140018 by olin piclist

face picon face
Howard Winter wrote:
> I can well believe this - and in that case, why do a lot of the board
> houses have the so-called Prototype minimum of 5 pieces?

Because it sounds better to charge you for 5 boards at $20 each than for one
board at $100, and the cost is about the same.  In other words, at that
volume it's all setup cost.


*****************************************************************
Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts
(978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com

2005\10\03@140221 by Spehro Pefhany

picon face
At 06:11 PM 10/3/2005 +0100, you wrote:
>Bob,
>
>On Sun, 02 Oct 2005 18:06:19 -0700, Bob Axtell wrote:
> >...<
> > Purchasing 1000 PCBs that are not right is very costly. The chance
> > of you getting the layout correct the first time is impossible; most
> > commercial designs have 7-8 versions before committing to a
> > volume purchase.
>
>I can well believe this - and in that case, why do a lot of the board
>houses have the so-called Prototype
>minimum of 5 pieces?  I know Olimex will do one-offs, but most of the
>others won't, which seems a huge waste
>of money.  If you discover problems only "using" one board at each
>iteration, you have 7 * 4 = 28 wasted
>boards!

The cost of making 1 board or 5 boards typically wouldn't be much different,
and 4 or 5 is not an unusual number to want, if not need, especially if more
than one physical location (often I do work for people 3-12 time zones
distant), or more than one firmware developer is involved, or if field
testing is required.

It's much better to have one or two spares available than to be short one!

The expected number of revisions to go through is partly a matter of company
culture-- lately, I've been taking the attitude that you should *expect* zero
errors, particularly when the EDA software is familiar, and any errors that
do crop up are an opportunity to improve the processes to weed them out
entirely.

Of course, it's always likely that spec's will change (this does not
count as an error), but taking the time to get errors down to approaching
zero the first time enforces design rigor that has beneficial effects in
subtle
ways. OTOH, it takes a bit longer design time.

And another OTOH, in some cases, depending on who you are dealing with,
they don't really start thinking about things clearly until they see a physical
prototype, so getting to the first one quickly is very important.

Personally, I've ordered 1,000 multilayer boards without making even one
prototype, and also ordered a quantity of boards made and assembled without
ever
seeing the bare boards. A bit nerve wracking in both cases, but they worked
out pretty well. I'd rather not do that on a first iteration, but it is
possible.

>Best regards,

Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..."            "The Journey is the reward"
@spam@speffKILLspamspaminterlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com
->> Inexpensive test equipment & parts http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZspeff


2005\10\03@160847 by alan smith

picon face
We are on turn 3...and final....very complex 14 layer board.  Boss wanted it done in 2, but the CM can't build them right..so we had to turn for that reason. Argggg

Bob Axtell <KILLspamengineerKILLspamspamcotse.net> wrote:Richard Prosser wrote:

{Quote hidden}

Certainly. Never seen it any other way.

--
Note: To protect our network,
attachments must be sent to
RemoveMEattachTakeThisOuTspamengineer.cotse.net .
1-866-263-5745 USA/Canada
http://beam.to/azengineer

2005\10\03@165723 by gacrowell

flavicon
face


{Quote hidden}

Note that for most pcb houses, the number of boards they fab, and the
cost, depends on the board size/panel size, not on the specific number
of boards you order.  You'll often see cases where ordering 12 boards is
the same total cost as 8 boards or whatever, because they probably
fabbed 2 panels with 7 boards each.  And here's a hint.  Find out that
you didn't get enough proto's?, call the board house.  They probably
have the extra (fabbed but unordered) boards on the shelf.  And they'll
be happy to sell them to you $$tbd, but the turn time is for shipping
only.

Oh, the keyword is, IIRC, "max for min".  When getting a quote, tell the
pcb house (as in the above example) that you want at least 8 boards, max
for min, and they quote the price for the maximum number of boards that
fit on the minimum number of panels needed to fab your minimum required
quantity.  This effectively gives you the lowest per board cost.  You
then buy all of the 'good' boards that those panels produce. In that
example, if each panel (of 7 boards) produced 6 good boards, then you'd
get and pay for 12 boards (when you really only 'needed' 8), but the per
board cost would probably be such that the total cost would be the same
as ordering only 8.

Extra boards are good for clipboards, got a little one here that keeps
my post-it pad handy, have some backplanes here that would make nice
serving trays, and, the purchasing guy has made several really neat
birdhouses.

Gary Crowell
Micron Technology

2005\10\04@042540 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>I can well believe this - and in that case, why
>do a lot of the board houses have the so-called
>Prototype minimum of 5 pieces?

Probably because they are doing to do a number of boards on a panel anyway.

And for you to have multiple boards means that you can build a repeat
prototype to verify you have the cut and hacks correctly identified before
doing another turn of the etch.

2005\10\04@043119 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>Of course, it's always likely that spec's will
>change (this does not count as an error),

But it could have been an error in the specification ... ;)

2005\10\04@094534 by Spehro Pefhany

picon face
At 09:31 AM 10/4/2005 +0100, you wrote:
> >Of course, it's always likely that spec's will
> >change (this does not count as an error),
>
>But it could have been an error in the specification ... ;)

Oh, quite possibly (likely, even!), or but I'm compartmentalizing the work,
for the purpose of analyzing errors, even if one person does both tasks.

There are lots of interesting things going on in the process of developing
a totally new product. An error in PCB layout or a 'typo' schematic error
is probably down at the bottom of the 'interesting' scale.

A couple of difficult-to-measure intangibles:

1)      The roach analogy-- if you allow one roach (error) to creep in, then
        more are probably hiding. This applies more to analog circuit design
        and mechanical design than to layout, but it's affected by company
        culture. viz- if the circuit designer knows that there's going to
        be another spin because the layout guy is allowed to make a few
        errors, then she may not be as careful in checking out every worst
        case scenario. This could result in field problems, since the
prototype
        testing won't usually approach the worst-case in every respect.

2)      The rapid prototyping axiom-- some errors or desirable changes only
        become obvious once you have created a prototype, so you want to get
        there as quickly as possible*, and without investing in things that
        make change financially or temporally difficult (eg. hard tooling).

* In a competitive situation, in some industries, a delay of a couple of
months can *halve* the total profit generated by a product over its
several year lifetime.

>Best regards,

Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..."            "The Journey is the reward"
RemoveMEspeffspamTakeThisOuTinterlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com
->> Inexpensive test equipment & parts http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZspeff


2005\10\04@103047 by Bob Axtell

face picon face
There is even more to this thread than immediately  evident.
In the old days (pre-1980) most companies wire-wrapped their
prototypes, because speed of TTL logic was slow. Nowdays,
the costs of prototypes are very low compared to labor costs
of wirewrap, so the FIRST iteration is really a replacement of
the early wirewrap or whitewire step. Tells you how old _I_ am,
doesn't it?

The later added iterations now are caused by the rigid EMC
controls that have become in effect in the last 5 years.

I have personally managed to create several products with two
iterations, but their complexity was low.

--Bob

Spehro Pefhany wrote:

{Quote hidden}

--
Note: To protect our network,
attachments must be sent to
EraseMEattachspamengineer.cotse.net .
1-866-263-5745 USA/Canada
http://beam.to/azengineer

More... (looser matching)
- Last day of these posts
- In 2005 , 2006 only
- Today
- New search...