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PICList Thread
'[OT:] was Re: PIC: PIC18F8720 insuccesses'
2004\02\16@073827 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>>And this is the configuration:
>>Config1  = 2500
>Main oscillator is source
>FOSC2 and FOSC0 set => EC oscillator w/ OSC2 as RA6

Hang on a minute. The OP must know this, else how did he provide the code in
the first place? I do have some sympathy with Olin's position, if not for
the way he spake it.

The OP has some code which must have been passed through some sort of
assembler - even if hand assembled. Why was the source code not published
instead of the hex code?? (or preferably both if it was hand assembled).

then later Russell wrote
{Quote hidden}

yep OK, but see my comments above, which I wrote before I got to your post.
If he does surprise us with his ability, then he would know that working in
the source code is a whole heap easier than working in the hex code domain.
Olin's comments on expecting others to disassemble the code seem quite
realistic to me if your stance is supported. working on Hex code is for
those who do not have access to the actual source vis a vis the recent
thread on defrauding machines.

>> So I think Olin's
>> reaction (and comments) are both fair and appropriate.
>
>Disagree on both points.
>But I'd still like to see him as a list member.

I would like to see him stay as a list member as well. However I do think
that Olin is one of those who "doth complain too much" at times with his
comments about "expect people who are busy to read this drivel" type posts.
There are times when he should just delete the post and go to the next one
instead of replying. There are plenty of us on the list who can (and
sometimes do) respond in a similar manner to these type of posts.

>> Olin's moodiness is well known on the list,
>
>A point to note is that an Olin broadside has often been the first
>response that a newcomer to the list has ever received. Several of
>these have been people for whom English was very very clearly a
>second language, as was the case in this instance. It's easy to
>drive such people away with such a first response when they MAY
>prove to be valuable members of the community AND we may prove to
>be a  valuable additions to their life.
...
>The chiefest problem I see with Olin is that he utterly insists on
>criticising people who he could just ignore. He insists on spending
>time and effort in abusing people for not wasting HIS time when he
>could leave them to others to deal with. Jinx did a reasonable brisk
>but humorous job of addressing the same points that Olin did. Others
>will certainly do similar for any "stupid" questions.

Which is what I am also saying above, and I think this is what has upset
James, to a point where he has leapt into the fray and removed Olin. I will
be sorry if Olin does not come back. However James and the other moderators
do have the thankless task of keeping the list clean and tidy. I don't know
what the legal situation would be with people calling names across
international boundaries, but we do not want to get to the point of finding
out.

>knowing the full circumstance we could be surprised: eg Just possibly
>(just possibly) the poster is old and stuck in a techo time warp. He
>may handle hex and machine code with aplomb
...
> He writes in raw machine code or uses an assembler ...

Well when I started in microprocessors I hand assembled everything because
assemblers were definitely not given away for free, they were well into the
4 digits type price, along with similar money for an 8 inch floppy drive
without controller ... But this takes us back to the top of this spiel of
mine. It does not excuse not posting the (supposed) source code, even for
hand assembled code.

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2004\02\16@073827 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>>And this is the configuration:
>>Config1  = 2500
>Main oscillator is source
>FOSC2 and FOSC0 set => EC oscillator w/ OSC2 as RA6

Hang on a minute. The OP must know this, else how did he provide the code in
the first place? I do have some sympathy with Olin's position, if not for
the way he spake it.

The OP has some code which must have been passed through some sort of
assembler - even if hand assembled. Why was the source code not published
instead of the hex code?? (or preferably both if it was hand assembled).

then later Russell wrote
{Quote hidden}

yep OK, but see my comments above, which I wrote before I got to your post.
If he does surprise us with his ability, then he would know that working in
the source code is a whole heap easier than working in the hex code domain.
Olin's comments on expecting others to disassemble the code seem quite
realistic to me if your stance is supported. working on Hex code is for
those who do not have access to the actual source vis a vis the recent
thread on defrauding machines.

>> So I think Olin's
>> reaction (and comments) are both fair and appropriate.
>
>Disagree on both points.
>But I'd still like to see him as a list member.

I would like to see him stay as a list member as well. However I do think
that Olin is one of those who "doth complain too much" at times with his
comments about "expect people who are busy to read this drivel" type posts.
There are times when he should just delete the post and go to the next one
instead of replying. There are plenty of us on the list who can (and
sometimes do) respond in a similar manner to these type of posts.

>> Olin's moodiness is well known on the list,
>
>A point to note is that an Olin broadside has often been the first
>response that a newcomer to the list has ever received. Several of
>these have been people for whom English was very very clearly a
>second language, as was the case in this instance. It's easy to
>drive such people away with such a first response when they MAY
>prove to be valuable members of the community AND we may prove to
>be a  valuable additions to their life.
...
>The chiefest problem I see with Olin is that he utterly insists on
>criticising people who he could just ignore. He insists on spending
>time and effort in abusing people for not wasting HIS time when he
>could leave them to others to deal with. Jinx did a reasonable brisk
>but humorous job of addressing the same points that Olin did. Others
>will certainly do similar for any "stupid" questions.

Which is what I am also saying above, and I think this is what has upset
James, to a point where he has leapt into the fray and removed Olin. I will
be sorry if Olin does not come back. However James and the other moderators
do have the thankless task of keeping the list clean and tidy. I don't know
what the legal situation would be with people calling names across
international boundaries, but we do not want to get to the point of finding
out.

>knowing the full circumstance we could be surprised: eg Just possibly
>(just possibly) the poster is old and stuck in a techo time warp. He
>may handle hex and machine code with aplomb
...
> He writes in raw machine code or uses an assembler ...

Well when I started in microprocessors I hand assembled everything because
assemblers were definitely not given away for free, they were well into the
4 digits type price, along with similar money for an 8 inch floppy drive
without controller ... But this takes us back to the top of this spiel of
mine. It does not excuse not posting the (supposed) source code, even for
hand assembled code.

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2004\02\16@080806 by D. Jay Newman

flavicon
face
> yep OK, but see my comments above, which I wrote before I got to your post.
> If he does surprise us with his ability, then he would know that working in
> the source code is a whole heap easier than working in the hex code domain.
> Olin's comments on expecting others to disassemble the code seem quite
> realistic to me if your stance is supported. working on Hex code is for
> those who do not have access to the actual source vis a vis the recent
> thread on defrauding machines.

I fully agree.

> >Disagree on both points.
> >But I'd still like to see him as a list member.
>
> I would like to see him stay as a list member as well. However I do think

I also agree. He may be more "blunt" than other posters, in this
particular case I think he has a strong point.

> Well when I started in microprocessors I hand assembled everything because
> assemblers were definitely not given away for free, they were well into the

Ayup. My first major 6502 program was a hand-assembled assembler which
used my custom 2-character mneumonics because it made the programming
*much* easier and made the program smaller. This was a big concern when
I had to hand-enter the darn thing.  :)
--
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spam_OUTjayTakeThisOuTspamsprucegrove.com     ! Xander: Giles, don't make cave-slayer unhappy.
http://enerd.ws/robots/ !

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2004\02\16@080806 by D. Jay Newman

flavicon
face
> yep OK, but see my comments above, which I wrote before I got to your post.
> If he does surprise us with his ability, then he would know that working in
> the source code is a whole heap easier than working in the hex code domain.
> Olin's comments on expecting others to disassemble the code seem quite
> realistic to me if your stance is supported. working on Hex code is for
> those who do not have access to the actual source vis a vis the recent
> thread on defrauding machines.

I fully agree.

> >Disagree on both points.
> >But I'd still like to see him as a list member.
>
> I would like to see him stay as a list member as well. However I do think

I also agree. He may be more "blunt" than other posters, in this
particular case I think he has a strong point.

> Well when I started in microprocessors I hand assembled everything because
> assemblers were definitely not given away for free, they were well into the

Ayup. My first major 6502 program was a hand-assembled assembler which
used my custom 2-character mneumonics because it made the programming
*much* easier and made the program smaller. This was a big concern when
I had to hand-enter the darn thing.  :)
--
D. Jay Newman           !
.....jayKILLspamspam@spam@sprucegrove.com     ! Xander: Giles, don't make cave-slayer unhappy.
http://enerd.ws/robots/ !

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2004\02\16@081633 by Dominic Stratten

picon face
&H49&H66&H20&H61&H6E&H79&H6F&H6E&H65&H20&H6A&H75&H73&H74&H20
&H70&H6F&H73&H74&H73&H20&H75&H70&H20&H68&H65&H78&H20&H72&H61
&H74&H68&H65&H72&H20&H74&H68&H61&H6E&H20&H63&H6F&H6D&H6D&H65
&H6E&H74&H65&H64&H20&H2E&H61&H73&H6D&H20&H74&H68&H65&H6E&H20
&H74&H68&H65&H79&H20&H61&H72&H65&H20&H61&H73&H6B&H69&H6E&H67
&H20&H66&H6F&H72&H20&H74&H72&H6F&H75&H62&H6C&H65&H2E

;)

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2004\02\16@081633 by Dominic Stratten

picon face
&H49&H66&H20&H61&H6E&H79&H6F&H6E&H65&H20&H6A&H75&H73&H74&H20
&H70&H6F&H73&H74&H73&H20&H75&H70&H20&H68&H65&H78&H20&H72&H61
&H74&H68&H65&H72&H20&H74&H68&H61&H6E&H20&H63&H6F&H6D&H6D&H65
&H6E&H74&H65&H64&H20&H2E&H61&H73&H6D&H20&H74&H68&H65&H6E&H20
&H74&H68&H65&H79&H20&H61&H72&H65&H20&H61&H73&H6B&H69&H6E&H67
&H20&H66&H6F&H72&H20&H74&H72&H6F&H75&H62&H6C&H65&H2E

;)

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2004\02\16@130143 by Bob Ammerman

picon face
Well, since everybody else has chipped in on this I guess I will to.

I actually like Olin, but certainly have not appreciated his, shall we say,
brusque, attitude at times. While I am saddened by his departure, I must
commend James for sticking to his guns and carrying through his 'threat'. I
think this is unfortunately necessary for the discipline of the PICLIST as a
whole.

Bob Ammerman
RAm Systems

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2004\02\16@130143 by Bob Ammerman

picon face
Well, since everybody else has chipped in on this I guess I will to.

I actually like Olin, but certainly have not appreciated his, shall we say,
brusque, attitude at times. While I am saddened by his departure, I must
commend James for sticking to his guns and carrying through his 'threat'. I
think this is unfortunately necessary for the discipline of the PICLIST as a
whole.

Bob Ammerman
RAm Systems

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2004\02\17@055010 by No Religion

flavicon
face
Alan B. Pearce wrote:

>It does not excuse not posting the (supposed) source code, even for
>hand assembled code.

I did. Stop saying false things.

Quoting my original post:

<<

Is the reset vector ok? It's supposed to be a BRA to 0010, where
it will meet a NOP (no reason in particular) and then the value
00 will be moved to W, which in turn will be moved to all the
TRISx registers. Then W will be loaded with FF, which will be
copied to all the PORTx registers. Finally (through some NOPs,
again, just to leave some space for inserting other code for
experiments) there's supposed to be a final BRA back to 0010.
Addresses don't represent bytes, but instruction words.

I know it's tedious to go through machine code.. but if you're
kind enough, and if the code or the configuration is wrong, please,
can you point me to the errors?

Or, in alternative, could some kind soul post a small .HEX file
with a demo program that just turns some port pins ON and some
others OFF, just to see if my problem lies in my hardware or in
my code?

>>

To insult unknown people is very bad, but to justify it with lies
is even worse..

---

Byron A. Jeff wrote:

> First and foremost, Olin called no one an idiot. He stated that the
> action will get you dismissed as an idiot.

Again, it looks like the best arguments Lord Olin Lathrop's friends
have to defend this wonderful person are lies, lies and lies.

I shall quote the very Lord, this time:

<<

You're being an idiot, and I don't have time to waste on idiots.

>>

English is most probably your native language, certainly not mine.
If "you are an idiot" isn't calling someone an idiot, then please
would be be so kind to explain all of us what it is?

So stop saying useless lies, you are producing a lot of waste of
bandwidth here, and forcing me to add more waste by rectifying your
pityful false claims.

Besides that after reading and re-reading it, inside and outside of
context, I have no culpage feelings about my original post, being
educated and civil is a must for every person, and nothing could
justify your beloved friend's behaviour neither, I say neither, if
he had any justification to insult me (for example by replying to a
personal insult, rather than a humble, honest, and of course perfectly
ignorable request of help).

Many of you surely hate me and see me as the cause that made Sir
Lathrop commit PICList suicide, but that's no problem for me because
as I said 1) it was purely a suicide and 2) honestly I've nothing to
blame to my conscience 3) the PICList is certainly a better place now,
and S/N ratio will improve a lot after the last lies stop to show up
4) Lord Olin Lathrop, this technical genious, by applying his same
style, could be called a pityful idiot for repeatedly saying "assembler
language", something that doesn't exist, it's "assembly language",
he should know, considering how much technical arrogance he shows
5) being the "enemy" of such a kind of people risks only to increase my
self-esteem 6) my innocent post was fairly defended by very valuable
people 7) many also tried to help 8) others didn't like the post but
rightly ignored it, because even not considering it was my first post,
it was within all the rules I read in the FAQ anyway 8) there are no
stupid questions, only stupid answers 9) most++ of the assumptions
and fantasies I've read about me here were extremely amusing, to say
the least 10) yes, I think that for the very very first experiment
machine code is ok. I tried MPLAB and I didn't like it. This doesn't
give the right to anyone to call me an idiot. I have my own IDE (with
integrated editor, compiler, assembler and source level debugger) that
supports several CPU families (assembly and my own high level language),
as I said I'm new to the microcontroller world (and to SMD soldering
and artigianal PCB production), but to support the 18x core I only need
to write a back end for my compiler plus a module for the assembler and
some stuff for the preprocessor. Days of work, worst case, but I will
integrate PIC development in my development environment. After having
tried everything, I was trying to understand why my board didn't want
to execute my first test code. Does this make me an idiot? Amusing.

Again, sorry if I've pointed out mostly the negative members of this
list. I think I needed to write something about those. But I sure
appreciate a lot what I feel is the majority (regardless of who makes
more noise, and creates useless, false polls).

Regards,
N.R.

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2004\02\17@055010 by No Religion

flavicon
face
Alan B. Pearce wrote:

>It does not excuse not posting the (supposed) source code, even for
>hand assembled code.

I did. Stop saying false things.

Quoting my original post:

<<

Is the reset vector ok? It's supposed to be a BRA to 0010, where
it will meet a NOP (no reason in particular) and then the value
00 will be moved to W, which in turn will be moved to all the
TRISx registers. Then W will be loaded with FF, which will be
copied to all the PORTx registers. Finally (through some NOPs,
again, just to leave some space for inserting other code for
experiments) there's supposed to be a final BRA back to 0010.
Addresses don't represent bytes, but instruction words.

I know it's tedious to go through machine code.. but if you're
kind enough, and if the code or the configuration is wrong, please,
can you point me to the errors?

Or, in alternative, could some kind soul post a small .HEX file
with a demo program that just turns some port pins ON and some
others OFF, just to see if my problem lies in my hardware or in
my code?

>>

To insult unknown people is very bad, but to justify it with lies
is even worse..

---

Byron A. Jeff wrote:

> First and foremost, Olin called no one an idiot. He stated that the
> action will get you dismissed as an idiot.

Again, it looks like the best arguments Lord Olin Lathrop's friends
have to defend this wonderful person are lies, lies and lies.

I shall quote the very Lord, this time:

<<

You're being an idiot, and I don't have time to waste on idiots.

>>

English is most probably your native language, certainly not mine.
If "you are an idiot" isn't calling someone an idiot, then please
would be be so kind to explain all of us what it is?

So stop saying useless lies, you are producing a lot of waste of
bandwidth here, and forcing me to add more waste by rectifying your
pityful false claims.

Besides that after reading and re-reading it, inside and outside of
context, I have no culpage feelings about my original post, being
educated and civil is a must for every person, and nothing could
justify your beloved friend's behaviour neither, I say neither, if
he had any justification to insult me (for example by replying to a
personal insult, rather than a humble, honest, and of course perfectly
ignorable request of help).

Many of you surely hate me and see me as the cause that made Sir
Lathrop commit PICList suicide, but that's no problem for me because
as I said 1) it was purely a suicide and 2) honestly I've nothing to
blame to my conscience 3) the PICList is certainly a better place now,
and S/N ratio will improve a lot after the last lies stop to show up
4) Lord Olin Lathrop, this technical genious, by applying his same
style, could be called a pityful idiot for repeatedly saying "assembler
language", something that doesn't exist, it's "assembly language",
he should know, considering how much technical arrogance he shows
5) being the "enemy" of such a kind of people risks only to increase my
self-esteem 6) my innocent post was fairly defended by very valuable
people 7) many also tried to help 8) others didn't like the post but
rightly ignored it, because even not considering it was my first post,
it was within all the rules I read in the FAQ anyway 8) there are no
stupid questions, only stupid answers 9) most++ of the assumptions
and fantasies I've read about me here were extremely amusing, to say
the least 10) yes, I think that for the very very first experiment
machine code is ok. I tried MPLAB and I didn't like it. This doesn't
give the right to anyone to call me an idiot. I have my own IDE (with
integrated editor, compiler, assembler and source level debugger) that
supports several CPU families (assembly and my own high level language),
as I said I'm new to the microcontroller world (and to SMD soldering
and artigianal PCB production), but to support the 18x core I only need
to write a back end for my compiler plus a module for the assembler and
some stuff for the preprocessor. Days of work, worst case, but I will
integrate PIC development in my development environment. After having
tried everything, I was trying to understand why my board didn't want
to execute my first test code. Does this make me an idiot? Amusing.

Again, sorry if I've pointed out mostly the negative members of this
list. I think I needed to write something about those. But I sure
appreciate a lot what I feel is the majority (regardless of who makes
more noise, and creates useless, false polls).

Regards,
N.R.

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2004\02\17@060941 by hael Rigby-Jones

picon face
>-----Original Message-----
>From: No Religion [noreligionspamKILLspamINFINITO.IT]

>Many of you surely hate me and see me as the cause that made
>Sir Lathrop commit PICList suicide, but that's no problem for
>me because as I said 1) it was purely a suicide and 2)
>honestly I've nothing to blame to my conscience 3) the PICList
>is certainly a better place now, and S/N ratio will improve a
>lot after the last lies stop to show up
>4) Lord Olin Lathrop, this technical genious, by applying his
>same style, could be called a pityful idiot for repeatedly
>saying "assembler language", something that doesn't exist,
>it's "assembly language", he should know, considering how much
>technical arrogance he shows


If you aren't a troll, you are doing an excellent impression of one.  If I
were a new member of a mailing list, having waded in and caused a huge fuss,
I don't think I'd be bragging about it unless I were trolling.

Mike




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2004\02\17@060941 by hael Rigby-Jones
picon face
>-----Original Message-----
>From: No Religion [EraseMEnoreligionspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTINFINITO.IT]

>Many of you surely hate me and see me as the cause that made
>Sir Lathrop commit PICList suicide, but that's no problem for
>me because as I said 1) it was purely a suicide and 2)
>honestly I've nothing to blame to my conscience 3) the PICList
>is certainly a better place now, and S/N ratio will improve a
>lot after the last lies stop to show up
>4) Lord Olin Lathrop, this technical genious, by applying his
>same style, could be called a pityful idiot for repeatedly
>saying "assembler language", something that doesn't exist,
>it's "assembly language", he should know, considering how much
>technical arrogance he shows


If you aren't a troll, you are doing an excellent impression of one.  If I
were a new member of a mailing list, having waded in and caused a huge fuss,
I don't think I'd be bragging about it unless I were trolling.

Mike




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person. Please contact us immediately to tell us that you have
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No part of this message can be considered a request for goods or
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2004\02\17@065803 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
NR

I think you would be well advised to quit while you are ahead (actually to
have quit while you were ahead) and limit your input to technical matters if
reasonably possible for the next while. As one of the (arguably) "valuable
people" who stuck up for you I'm singularly unimpressed with your subsequent
responses to other people.

I'm happy with what I've said on the subject as a matter of principle (and
you may have noticed that even though I criticised Olin's behaviour I also
said that I'd like to see Olin given another chance in due course), but it
is extremely annoying to see things like your list which starts -

> Many of you surely hate me and see me as the cause that made Sir
> Lathrop commit PICList suicide, but that's no problem for me because
> as I said 1) it was purely a suicide and 2) honestly I've nothing to
> blame to my conscience 3) the PICList is certainly a better place now, ...

If you have a look through the archive you'll find that I'm not quick to
insult anyone and if I do I try to do so in a measured and useful manner
with a definite object in mind. It's not presently obvious that swapping
Olin for you is going to be anything like a good trade. I wish to God (quite
literally) that Olin would learn to modify his ways somewhat and not launch
into beginners who are not used to his style, BUT 'kicking a man when he's
down' as you effectively are doing is also pretty sickening.

Olin was (and hopefully will be) an immense asset. His loss to the list will
be a great one if it's permanent. Some things have to be done and James did
what he had said he would if Olin did what he did. Life happens. That
doesn't mean the list is a better place as a consequence. Sometimes
decisions have to be taken which don't leave you feeling happy about the
outcome. A man has to do what a man has to do .....

Try not to make people who supported you feel worse about it and people who
supported Olin's approach feel even more justified than they do already.

The ideal would be for you and Olin to ultimately become friends or, at
least, mutually respectful of each other's capabilities. You sound (by your
own assessment of yourself) to be a capable and talented person. How about
trying to "come on board" in as reasonable and polite way as possible and
seek to emulate Olin's good points and not his bad ones.

FWIW - Alan Pearce & BAJ both got things ***slightly*** wrong and didn't
deserve your response. Both are reasonable, thoughtful, useful, helpful  and
intelligent list member. You don't really need to start life here by
entering into a fire fight with them. Better to just let their far from rude
comments pass. Alan's claim that you had not posted source code was correct
in all but the most technical of senses. What you call "source" is
absolutely nothing like what is usually meant by the term in a PIC
environment. It looks more like COBOL pseudo code :-) (that's a joke fwiw).
You did indeed describe the program in longhand English. If you HAD to reply
to Alan's comment you could have simply noted that you had posted "source"
in an unconventional format. Calling his comments "lies" guarantees further
bad feelings.

In your response to BAJ using terms like "Lord Olin" and "Sir Olin" is going
to win you no friends.

The last paragraph about noise, polls etc was, IMHO, a very unwise addition.

OK
OPTIONS:

- Reply scathingly to this message

- Say nothing.

- Briefly say sorry to others  with no attempt at justification (the hardest
and best choice)
(you've not said anything bad to me so I'm in no need of any apology)

- ????

By the way - I have no authority here - I'm just a long time list member -
you don't HAVE to take any notice of anything I say. But you'd be well
advised to do so.



       Russell McMahon

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2004\02\17@065803 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
NR

I think you would be well advised to quit while you are ahead (actually to
have quit while you were ahead) and limit your input to technical matters if
reasonably possible for the next while. As one of the (arguably) "valuable
people" who stuck up for you I'm singularly unimpressed with your subsequent
responses to other people.

I'm happy with what I've said on the subject as a matter of principle (and
you may have noticed that even though I criticised Olin's behaviour I also
said that I'd like to see Olin given another chance in due course), but it
is extremely annoying to see things like your list which starts -

> Many of you surely hate me and see me as the cause that made Sir
> Lathrop commit PICList suicide, but that's no problem for me because
> as I said 1) it was purely a suicide and 2) honestly I've nothing to
> blame to my conscience 3) the PICList is certainly a better place now, ...

If you have a look through the archive you'll find that I'm not quick to
insult anyone and if I do I try to do so in a measured and useful manner
with a definite object in mind. It's not presently obvious that swapping
Olin for you is going to be anything like a good trade. I wish to God (quite
literally) that Olin would learn to modify his ways somewhat and not launch
into beginners who are not used to his style, BUT 'kicking a man when he's
down' as you effectively are doing is also pretty sickening.

Olin was (and hopefully will be) an immense asset. His loss to the list will
be a great one if it's permanent. Some things have to be done and James did
what he had said he would if Olin did what he did. Life happens. That
doesn't mean the list is a better place as a consequence. Sometimes
decisions have to be taken which don't leave you feeling happy about the
outcome. A man has to do what a man has to do .....

Try not to make people who supported you feel worse about it and people who
supported Olin's approach feel even more justified than they do already.

The ideal would be for you and Olin to ultimately become friends or, at
least, mutually respectful of each other's capabilities. You sound (by your
own assessment of yourself) to be a capable and talented person. How about
trying to "come on board" in as reasonable and polite way as possible and
seek to emulate Olin's good points and not his bad ones.

FWIW - Alan Pearce & BAJ both got things ***slightly*** wrong and didn't
deserve your response. Both are reasonable, thoughtful, useful, helpful  and
intelligent list member. You don't really need to start life here by
entering into a fire fight with them. Better to just let their far from rude
comments pass. Alan's claim that you had not posted source code was correct
in all but the most technical of senses. What you call "source" is
absolutely nothing like what is usually meant by the term in a PIC
environment. It looks more like COBOL pseudo code :-) (that's a joke fwiw).
You did indeed describe the program in longhand English. If you HAD to reply
to Alan's comment you could have simply noted that you had posted "source"
in an unconventional format. Calling his comments "lies" guarantees further
bad feelings.

In your response to BAJ using terms like "Lord Olin" and "Sir Olin" is going
to win you no friends.

The last paragraph about noise, polls etc was, IMHO, a very unwise addition.

OK
OPTIONS:

- Reply scathingly to this message

- Say nothing.

- Briefly say sorry to others  with no attempt at justification (the hardest
and best choice)
(you've not said anything bad to me so I'm in no need of any apology)

- ????

By the way - I have no authority here - I'm just a long time list member -
you don't HAVE to take any notice of anything I say. But you'd be well
advised to do so.



       Russell McMahon

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2004\02\17@081136 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>>It does not excuse not posting the (supposed) source code,
>>even for hand assembled code.
>
>I did. Stop saying false things.

Well unfortunately I have deleted the original post (guess I could find it
in the archives if I felt inclined), but I only recall seeing a dump of hex
code, what you call machine code further down. That is not source code.
Source code has the mnemonics the assembler uses, and makes things human
understandable without having to do the reverse assembly. The lack of this
source code is the very thing that caused Olin to write what he did.

>Quoting my original post:
>
<><
{Quote hidden}

It is because it is so tedious to go through machine code that it is
considered reasonable etiquette to provide the relevant mnemonics of the
source code. What you have written here in your original post is an
explanation of how most of us would explain the source code to others, and
ideally it should appear in YOUR source code as comments. Now perhaps you
can understand why those who replied to your second posting considered you
to be gloating.

When I saw your original posting I glanced at it, saw a big table of hex and
promptly discarded it. Because there was no mnemonics many others here would
have done the same. No-one (or at best, very few) on this list have the time
to pore over your hex code and work out what it is doing. Go back to MPLAB
and work out its foibles, and generate proper source code with an editor.
Taken to the extreme, if you get the development environment that Olin has
then you can do things that work around the foibles of MPLAB and make it
much more user friendly.

Just remember that you are expecting free help. Sort your posting out in a
manner that others can look through it in a minimum of time. Having to
decode a core dump does not do this, people will discard the message and
move on to something more interesting.

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2004\02\17@081136 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>>It does not excuse not posting the (supposed) source code,
>>even for hand assembled code.
>
>I did. Stop saying false things.

Well unfortunately I have deleted the original post (guess I could find it
in the archives if I felt inclined), but I only recall seeing a dump of hex
code, what you call machine code further down. That is not source code.
Source code has the mnemonics the assembler uses, and makes things human
understandable without having to do the reverse assembly. The lack of this
source code is the very thing that caused Olin to write what he did.

>Quoting my original post:
>
<><
{Quote hidden}

It is because it is so tedious to go through machine code that it is
considered reasonable etiquette to provide the relevant mnemonics of the
source code. What you have written here in your original post is an
explanation of how most of us would explain the source code to others, and
ideally it should appear in YOUR source code as comments. Now perhaps you
can understand why those who replied to your second posting considered you
to be gloating.

When I saw your original posting I glanced at it, saw a big table of hex and
promptly discarded it. Because there was no mnemonics many others here would
have done the same. No-one (or at best, very few) on this list have the time
to pore over your hex code and work out what it is doing. Go back to MPLAB
and work out its foibles, and generate proper source code with an editor.
Taken to the extreme, if you get the development environment that Olin has
then you can do things that work around the foibles of MPLAB and make it
much more user friendly.

Just remember that you are expecting free help. Sort your posting out in a
manner that others can look through it in a minimum of time. Having to
decode a core dump does not do this, people will discard the message and
move on to something more interesting.

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(like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics

2004\02\17@081757 by No Religion

flavicon
face
>Just remember that you are expecting free help. Sort your posting out in a
>manner that others can look through it in a minimum of time. Having to
>decode a core dump does not do this, people will discard the message and
>move on to something more interesting.

Fine with that. As long as nobody dares to call me or anybody else an idiot
for that.

One can feel slightly upset after being called idiot for no reason, can he?

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2004\02\17@081757 by No Religion

flavicon
face
>Just remember that you are expecting free help. Sort your posting out in a
>manner that others can look through it in a minimum of time. Having to
>decode a core dump does not do this, people will discard the message and
>move on to something more interesting.

Fine with that. As long as nobody dares to call me or anybody else an idiot
for that.

One can feel slightly upset after being called idiot for no reason, can he?

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2004\02\17@083042 by hael Rigby-Jones

picon face
>-----Original Message-----
>From: No Religion [@spam@noreligionKILLspamspamINFINITO.IT]
>Sent: 17 February 2004 13:15
>To: KILLspamPICLISTKILLspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
>Subject: Re: [OT:] was Re: PIC: PIC18F8720 insuccesses
>
>
>>Just remember that you are expecting free help. Sort your posting out
>>in a manner that others can look through it in a minimum of time.
>>Having to decode a core dump does not do this, people will
>discard the
>>message and move on to something more interesting.
>
>Fine with that. As long as nobody dares to call me or anybody
>else an idiot for that.
>
>One can feel slightly upset after being called idiot for no
>reason, can he?

That's entirely up to you.  If you are of a very senstive disposition,
perhaps you feel you have been mentaly scared by the experience.  Other
people get upset when they realise that there was at least an element of
truth in the accustation.

Most others, however, have the maturity to accept the incident at face
value; an over-reaction by someone who is frustrated by people posting
requests for help without ever trying to help themselves first.  If you
truly feel so agreived, then I suggest the internet is not something you
should be using.  It's full of people much, much worse than Olin, and
without the redeeming characteristics.  God help you if you ever find
someone like this.

As for the original request, only the foolhardy, the truly masochistic or
those trapped in the dark ages program (and debug) in machine code when
perfectly good, free development tools are available.

Mike





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person. Please contact us immediately to tell us that you have
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No part of this message can be considered a request for goods or
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2004\02\17@083042 by hael Rigby-Jones

picon face
>-----Original Message-----
>From: No Religion [spamBeGonenoreligionspamBeGonespamINFINITO.IT]
>Sent: 17 February 2004 13:15
>To: TakeThisOuTPICLISTEraseMEspamspam_OUTMITVMA.MIT.EDU
>Subject: Re: [OT:] was Re: PIC: PIC18F8720 insuccesses
>
>
>>Just remember that you are expecting free help. Sort your posting out
>>in a manner that others can look through it in a minimum of time.
>>Having to decode a core dump does not do this, people will
>discard the
>>message and move on to something more interesting.
>
>Fine with that. As long as nobody dares to call me or anybody
>else an idiot for that.
>
>One can feel slightly upset after being called idiot for no
>reason, can he?

That's entirely up to you.  If you are of a very senstive disposition,
perhaps you feel you have been mentaly scared by the experience.  Other
people get upset when they realise that there was at least an element of
truth in the accustation.

Most others, however, have the maturity to accept the incident at face
value; an over-reaction by someone who is frustrated by people posting
requests for help without ever trying to help themselves first.  If you
truly feel so agreived, then I suggest the internet is not something you
should be using.  It's full of people much, much worse than Olin, and
without the redeeming characteristics.  God help you if you ever find
someone like this.

As for the original request, only the foolhardy, the truly masochistic or
those trapped in the dark ages program (and debug) in machine code when
perfectly good, free development tools are available.

Mike





=======================================================================
This e-mail is intended for the person it is addressed to only. The
information contained in it may be confidential and/or protected by
law. If you are not the intended recipient of this message, you must
not make any use of this information, or copy or show it to any
person. Please contact us immediately to tell us that you have
received this e-mail, and return the original to us. Any use,
forwarding, printing or copying of this message is strictly prohibited.
No part of this message can be considered a request for goods or
services.
=======================================================================
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RemoveMEpostmasterspamTakeThisOuTbookham.com.

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2004\02\17@085610 by Alexander JJ Rice

picon face
On Tue, 17 Feb 2004 11:49:19 +0100, No Religion <noreligionEraseMEspam.....INFINITO.IT>
wrote:

> Alan B. Pearce wrote:
>
>> It does not excuse not posting the (supposed) source code, even for
>> hand assembled code.
>
> I did. Stop saying false things.
>
> I shall quote the very Lord, this time:

Um, isn't parodying the bible like this more broadly offensive than saying
that if you ask people to diassemble and debug machine code, especially
when there are literally dozens of sample programs on the net, you may get
called an idiot.

Regards

Alex Rice

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2004\02\17@085610 by Alexander JJ Rice

picon face
On Tue, 17 Feb 2004 11:49:19 +0100, No Religion <EraseMEnoreligionspamINFINITO.IT>
wrote:

> Alan B. Pearce wrote:
>
>> It does not excuse not posting the (supposed) source code, even for
>> hand assembled code.
>
> I did. Stop saying false things.
>
> I shall quote the very Lord, this time:

Um, isn't parodying the bible like this more broadly offensive than saying
that if you ask people to diassemble and debug machine code, especially
when there are literally dozens of sample programs on the net, you may get
called an idiot.

Regards

Alex Rice

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