I am starting a class this week, so I will be in read-only mode on the
piclist for the next few weeks. Besides, this list is CLEARLY WAY OVER MY
HEAD. I have LOADS of archive reading to do. I'm not throwing in the towel
(yet) but I hate pointing out publicly how stupid I am. Time for me to
reconsider my activities, and see if I'm really up for the journey into
electronics I've been fantasizing about. The mind is NOT a limitless
resource, as some would have us believe. I will never tell my children "you
can do anything" because that's just not true. :)
> I'm not throwing in the towel (yet) but I hate pointing out publicly how
stupid I am.
Hi Gustaf,
As far as I know, no one was born an expert in anything. :)
I hate to see someone leave the list -- I feel everyone has something to
offer -- maybe they don't realize it.
There is nothing wrong in asking beginner's questions. There's usually
someone here to respond to them.
The PICLIST gives you some stuff that 'googling for information' never will.
Best regards, hang in there, and good luck in your course!
At 02:07 PM 2/29/2004 -0500, you wrote:
>I am starting a class this week, so I will be in read-only mode on the
>piclist for the next few weeks. Besides, this list is CLEARLY WAY OVER MY
>HEAD. I have LOADS of archive reading to do. I'm not throwing in the towel
>(yet) but I hate pointing out publicly how stupid I am.
You can be DELETED from the list for calling a member stupid, please do
not do it again.
> Time for me to
>reconsider my activities, and see if I'm really up for the journey into
>electronics I've been fantasizing about. The mind is NOT a limitless
>resource, as some would have us believe. I will never tell my children "you
>can do anything" because that's just not true. :)
>See you soon.
On Sun, 29 Feb 2004 14:07:37 -0500, "Gustaf J. Barkstrom" wrote:
>I am starting a class this week, so I will be in read-only mode on the
>piclist for the next few weeks. Besides, this list is CLEARLY WAY OVER MY
>HEAD. I have LOADS of archive reading to do. I'm not throwing in the towel
>(yet) but I hate pointing out publicly how stupid I am. Time for me to
>reconsider my activities, and see if I'm really up for the journey into
>electronics I've been fantasizing about. The mind is NOT a limitless
>resource, as some would have us believe. I will never tell my children "you
>can do anything" because that's just not true. :)
>
It sounds to me like you've found yourself deep in "information
overload".
This list has quite a number of active members who are very
experienced in many different aspects of electronics, PICs, and
programming. Discussions can sometimes proceed at a pace that's just
too rapid for a beginner to keep up with. Don't let that throw you.
Pick up what you can from the list as you go along. Don't try to "get
it" all at once; that's a sure-fire way to do nothing more than
frustrate yourself.
Take your time learning and ask questions when you need to. Of course,
be sure that you've done your own research before you ask them. :=)
Good questions are the lifeblood of this list and many of the best
come from posters new to electronics.
Hang in there, Gustaf. You *can* learn it -- you just can't learn it
all at once.
> I am starting a class this week, so I will be in read-only mode on the
> piclist for the next few weeks. Besides, this list is CLEARLY WAY OVER MY
> HEAD.
Definitely not!
The level varies from the very very simple to the very complex. There's
somethinhg for almost everyone here.
> I have LOADS of archive reading to do. I'm not throwing in the towel
> (yet) but I hate pointing out publicly how stupid I am. Time for me to
> reconsider my activities, and see if I'm really up for the journey into
> electronics I've been fantasizing about.
If electronics is a serious aim then you can definitely make it. The fact
that you are "starting a class" (regardless of what level that is at) means
that you are willing and able to learn. (ie everyone is ABLE to learn
something (ability varies but is always there) - doing something is the
crucial step).
What you are capable of in electronics is as yet unknown. That you are
capable of achieving something useful and satisfying is obvious from your
posts so far. You don't have to become an expert overnight - just take it at
a pace that suits. Soak up what's interesting and learn from it. Seek to
understand the explanations that people provide to other's problems - don't
just skim over the bits you don't understand but follow what the "3experts"
are saying. (Also be aware that even "experts" explanations are sometimes
wrong :-) ). The more you assimilate the easier it will seem. Like most
things its mainly layer on layer on layer of not too hard stuff. There ae
some 'quantum leaps' required but ou can go a long way on slow easy steps.
>The mind is NOT a limitless resource, as some would have us believe.
No. But rather less limited than most believe. Repeated application makes
many apparently impossible tasks much more achievable. (Riding a bicycle,
driving a car, target shooting, WALKING!, playing a musical instrument and
much more are tasks that are literally impossible to the uninitiated and
literally seond nature to the trained.
> I will never tell my children "you
> can do anything" because that's just not true. :)
But do tell them that what they can achieve will surprise them if they allow
it to!
And be sure to tell yourself as well :-)
>I am starting a class this week, so I will be in read-only mode on the
>piclist for the next few weeks. Besides, this list is CLEARLY WAY OVER MY
>HEAD. I have LOADS of archive reading to do. I'm not throwing in the towel
>(yet) but I hate pointing out publicly how stupid I am. Time for me to
>reconsider my activities, and see if I'm really up for the journey into
>electronics I've been fantasizing about. The mind is NOT a limitless
>resource, as some would have us believe. I will never tell my children "you
>can do anything" because that's just not true. :)
>
>See you soon.
>
>Gustaf
>
>--
>http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us!
>email @spam@listservKILLspammitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body
>
>
> It sounds to me like you've found yourself deep in "information
> overload".
Absolutely.
> This list has quite a number of active members who are very
> experienced in many different aspects of electronics, PICs, and
> programming. Discussions can sometimes proceed at a pace that's just
> too rapid for a beginner to keep up with. Don't let that throw you.
I'll try not to let it throw me. I have to recompile all the responses
I got from the stepper circuit stuff, perhaps map it out on a sheet of
paper, so I can draw some conclusions. That'll be a task for next weekend
if I'm not too busy in class.
> Pick up what you can from the list as you go along. Don't try to "get
> it" all at once; that's a sure-fire way to do nothing more than
> frustrate yourself.
Indeed. I get very angry at the slowness of my learning sometimes. I think
I need to get a date, see a movie, and think about something other than
electronics for a little while. :) Despite dating/movie watching/bantering
about with women being wholly and completely unproductive. Nonetheless,
finding a date is a sufficiently difficult challenge as to be intersting.
> Take your time learning and ask questions when you need to. Of course,
> be sure that you've done your own research before you ask them. :=)
> Good questions are the lifeblood of this list and many of the best
> come from posters new to electronics.
>
> Hang in there, Gustaf. You *can* learn it -- you just can't learn it
> all at once.
Yes, I will hang in there, and take it more slowly. I will do my research.
As for my training thus far: school of hard knocks (tinkered as a kid with
electronics, mostly for model railroading), two electronics courses in
college (nothing beyond here's an op amp, do stuff). Oh, I did build a
wire-wrapped Motorola 68000-based computer, complete with UART and Forth on
EEPROM. However, that was also for a class; it booted, I got a B-, and I
couldn't get the silly thing to work again after that. Of course, it was
not my design either, so I didn't really know completely how it worked
anyway.
I found that picking up a few books on electronics/robotics really helped
me learn. At first I would look at a circuit and have absolutely no idea
how it worked or even what most of the components were or did. The more I
read the more I became familiar with basic circuit design. One book that
really helped me was "Getting Started In Electronics" from Radio
Shack. Granted, its format seems a bit aimed towards children (12 years
old maybe) but it has a lot of important and fundamental information about
different electronic devices. I have also bought books specific to the PIC
micros such as Easy Pic'n, Programming and Customizing Pic Micros, Pic'n Up
the Pace, and Programming Robot Controllers. Robot books I have include
Robot Builders Bonanza, Build Your Own Robot (mainly geared towards the
Motorola 68hc11/12 micro), and Robots, Androids, and Animatronics. I have
also spent countless hours reading anything and everything I can find on
the net. But now, to show for all my work, I can look at a circuit and
have a good understanding of what each part of the circuit does and the
general reasoning behind it. Just keep at it, don't get discouraged, and
read a lot :) It doesn't matter if you understand something today because
something you read tomorrow might put it into perspective and it will all
come together.
Russell McMahon wrote:
> If electronics is a serious aim then you can definitely make it. The fact
> that you are "starting a class" (regardless of what level that is
> at) means
> that you are willing and able to learn. (ie everyone is ABLE to learn
> something (ability varies but is always there) - doing something is the
> crucial step).
Ah yes, doing something. I guess that's the irony of learning; you have to
do something, and take the inevitable (requisite?) errors that come with
doing something, before you can learn much. Of course, forums such as this
are where we can learn from each other before/while/after doing something.
Nonetheless, we each have to do something, otherwise there wouldn't be any
learning going on, or any PICLIST. It's painfully simple, and you said it
quite eloquently, "doing something is the crucial step".
> What you are capable of in electronics is as yet unknown. That you are
> capable of achieving something useful and satisfying is obvious from your
> posts so far. You don't have to become an expert overnight - just
> take it at a pace that suits.
Again, sage advice. It makes me angry that I have to take time to learn
something; I think to myself, "somebody else already knows how to do it, so
let them do it, and stop waiting around for me to learn it." That's why I
dropped out of college. I'm back in college again, however. I demonstrate
more patience than I used to, but just recently I have been less patient;
I've been rushing as a matter of fact.
> > I will never tell my children "you
> > can do anything" because that's just not true. :)
>
> But do tell them that what they can achieve will surprise them if
> they allow it to!
> And be sure to tell yourself as well :-)
The jury is still out on that idea. Perhaps I can pretend I'm capable, and
that way I won't bury myself in anger about being incapable. Maybe that's
just crazy, I don't really know. :)
"It's better to try and fail than to never try at all."
One of those timeless but timely quotations.
A coworker of mine said "you can't fault anyone for trying."
I'm not entirely convinced of either statement, but it only applies
to me. In other words, I can't fault anyone else for trying and failing,
but if I try and fail, I'll never let go of it, and I sure as heck won't try
again.
Then, somewhere down the road I decide I'll try it again, and the whole
process starts over. My new approach is "if at first you fail, stop trying,
and do something else." This way, I try all kinds of things, and only keep
doing those things I first succeed at. It has not gotten me very far in
life. I don't want to take the time and employ the rigor necessary for me
to learn something; but, I NEED to, as much as I don't want to.
Ah yes, good ol' Forrest Mimms and his Engineer's Handbooks
and the "Getting Started in Electronics" book. I have a dog-eared
copy of that book, and still use the resistor color band reference
in the handbooks when I'm having a particularly forgetful day at the
workbench.
At the end of the day, the reasons I was so excited about my PIC motor
controller were:
1) Never had used a PIC before. Mucho cool to program a device, I thought.
2) Never had made a working PCB before.
3) Always wanted to make my computer "do something", i.e. control something
outside of the normal peripherals, and control them on-the-cheap.
Then, I joined PICLIST. Visions of ADC/DAC, IR remotes, home automation,
wireless networking, making use of upper layers of known IR/wireless/other
protocols to "do my own thing" in a circuit, serial/USB stuff, radio stuff,
laser stuff, etc. etc. etc. all started bouncing around in my head. Not to
mention even more robotics, their sensing systems, and other stuff that I'd
never considered previously. I also realized how elementary my knowledge of
electronics is. I knew it was elementary, but it still stunned me how much
I don't know. I don't even understand the concept of "pull-up resistors".
Anyway, that's for me to research, and just to let you know more about where
I'm coming from.
Thanks for the book titles, I'll look into them. Easy Pic'n sounds like a
good place to start. :)
> process starts over. My new approach is "if at first you fail,
> stop trying, and do something else." This way, I try all kinds of things,
and
> only keep doing those things I first succeed at.
Hi Gustaf,
Engineering requires a lot of head-banging -- and I don't mean listening to
Metallica.
What you call 'failure' is what I like to call a 'result'.
Engineering can be very agonizing and humbling at times, but it is extremely
rewarding. I think we all doubt our abilities to some degree. Just take baby
steps, have some patience, and try not to be so hard on yourself. The field
is so wide-open and the knowledge base is so great that, even if I had nine
lives, I still would not be where I'd like to be in terms of my abilities.
I think dedication and persistence really pays off. Try to view what you
call 'failures' as learning experiences.
It sounds like you have a very hectic schedule -- ask yourself if you are
setting realistic goals for yourself in terms of your expected completion
dates of your electronic projects.
I would suggest Easy Pic'n if you want to learn to program the PICs in
Assembler. I found it to be very helpful. One note though. Since I had
never had any experience in programming in ASM (I am a computer science
major but mostly program in C/C++, VB, and Java), I had to literally read
the first half of the book three times before I fully grasped the concepts
and started to remember what each ASM statement meant and did. I guess
what I'm saying is try not to get discouraged and you're not alone :) If
you want to program PICs in C (Hi-Tech PICC Lite), "Programming Robot
Controllers" is a pretty good book. When you do start to program PICs,
start off VERY simple. I'm talking about flashing an LED simple. When you
have that down and understand the concept of setting up the registers, Port
I/O, etc. try something a little more difficult like hooking up 8 LEDs to
say PORTB and make it loop from 0 to 255 and display the value on the LEDs
in Binary. This will allow you to get the feel for looping and
branching. After that, work on a little bit more complex program. I like
to completely design one part of a program, say inputting a signal, then
test that and make sure it works...then add a little more code at a time,
testing each part that I add. I found that the big bang method (code the
whole program, burn it onto the chip, build the circuit, close your eyes
and hit the power switch hoping it'll work) is the worst possible way. 99%
of the time (in my past projects) it doesn't work. Start simple and work
up from there. I've been playing with PICs off and on for the last couple
years and I'm finally starting to feel comfortable enough to actually
design and implement projects. It's daunting at first but it definitely
gets better. Oh, one more note. The name of the Easy Pic'n book has
changed. It's now Easy Microcontrol'n. You can find their website here: http://www.sq-1.com/ . Good luck and hang in there.
>Scott,
>
>Ah yes, good ol' Forrest Mimms and his Engineer's Handbooks
>and the "Getting Started in Electronics" book. I have a dog-eared
>copy of that book, and still use the resistor color band reference
>in the handbooks when I'm having a particularly forgetful day at the
>workbench.
>
>At the end of the day, the reasons I was so excited about my PIC motor
>controller were:
>
>1) Never had used a PIC before. Mucho cool to program a device, I thought.
>2) Never had made a working PCB before.
>3) Always wanted to make my computer "do something", i.e. control something
>outside of the normal peripherals, and control them on-the-cheap.
>
>Then, I joined PICLIST. Visions of ADC/DAC, IR remotes, home automation,
>wireless networking, making use of upper layers of known IR/wireless/other
>protocols to "do my own thing" in a circuit, serial/USB stuff, radio stuff,
>laser stuff, etc. etc. etc. all started bouncing around in my head. Not to
>mention even more robotics, their sensing systems, and other stuff that I'd
>never considered previously. I also realized how elementary my knowledge of
>electronics is. I knew it was elementary, but it still stunned me how much
>I don't know. I don't even understand the concept of "pull-up resistors".
>Anyway, that's for me to research, and just to let you know more about where
>I'm coming from.
>
>Thanks for the book titles, I'll look into them. Easy Pic'n sounds like a
>good place to start. :)
>
>Gustaf
> I will never tell my children "you
>can do anything" because that's just not true. :)
>
>
But you *can* do anything! You just can't do *everything* (specially at
once ;-) )
>See you soon.
>
>
Hope so, I liked very much the threads you've started, I also have
learned many things, and I think that many others have beneficed form it
too.
Keep up with us.
Francisco
P.S.: I've once read something like this:
Difficult tasks is our specialty. Impossible things takes a little longer.
Your post about the metal tool protectant was fascinating, you clearly
have something to offer us. Hopefully we can offer you something as well.
I've been making my living programming PICs for 9 years and some of this
stuff is over my head, too so don't feel bad. Start simple, make
something useful. I started this business making DC power supplies and
buzzers with 709 op amps. There is nothing wrong with dropping C and ASM
and using a Basic Stamp or a J stamp to do something useful with less
brain-pain.
Yes clearly the mind is not a limitless resource, and even if it was, time
is not a limitless resource.
I am starting a class this week, so I will be in read-only mode on the
piclist for the next few weeks. Besides, this list is CLEARLY WAY OVER MY
HEAD. I have LOADS of archive reading to do. I'm not throwing in the
towel
(yet) but I hate pointing out publicly how stupid I am. Time for me to
reconsider my activities, and see if I'm really up for the journey into
electronics I've been fantasizing about. The mind is NOT a limitless
resource, as some would have us believe. I will never tell my children
"you
can do anything" because that's just not true. :)
Thanks. I'm sure the list has many things to offer me, in fact, it already
has offered me many things. I was tired and, frankly, depressed/angry about
my circuit and stuff at work. I shouldn't have taken it out on myself, at
least not publicly on the list. My class starts Thursday, so I may make
some more posts before then.
mitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body
