Post by thread:[OT:] Wiring detached garage (reprise)

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'[OT:] Wiring detached garage (reprise)'
2004\08\25@113802 by Matt Redmond

Please no flaming about inspectors, etc... that we got off-topic on last time (the 'what cable gauge?' discussion)! I have another question about wiring my detached garage - this one is about grounding. The way I read things, I have two acceptable choices when it comes to grounding in the detached garage. They are: (a) Run H-H-N-G from main panel to garage. Do NOT bond N-G in the remote panel. (b) Run H-H-N from main panel to garage. DO bond N-G in the remote panel. In either case the garage gets its own earth ground. Any opinions on which is the 'betterer' approach. Any advantages to one over the other? I'm already going to be running 3-conductor cable + ground - any reason not to use (a)? Thanks! -matt redmond -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics

2004\08\25@115253 by Bob J

> (a) Run H-H-N-G from main panel to garage. Do NOT bond N-G in the remote > panel. That's the way I'd do it, because that fat wire gets expensive and there is no tangible benefit I can see to connecting N-G in both boxes. Both neutral and ground get connected together in your main box anyway, and I personally would rather have a single point ground-neutral connection to avoid any possiblity of ground loops. Regards, Bob -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics

2004\08\25@115500 by Bob Japundza

> (b) Run H-H-N from main panel to garage. DO bond N-G in the remote panel. Sorry Matt, I goofed my previous reply. I meant to say that I would run just three wire cable. Regards, Bob -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics

2004\08\25@120122 by Matt Redmond

part 1 683 bytes content-type:text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 (decoded 7bit) Bob, I'm going to be running 3-conductor plus ground anyway - my uncle is in the cable business - it's free :-) All he has in an 'odd length' long enough for me is 3 conductor + ground. So if I run H-H-N then the ground wire will still be there - just disconnected on both ends. Thanks, -matt > > From: Bob Japundza <spam_OUTpiclistTakeThisOuTMAIL.CSCAPE.NET> > Date: 2004/08/25 Wed PM 04:09:07 GMT > To: .....PICLISTKILLspam@spam@MITVMA.MIT.EDU > Subject: Re: [OT:] Wiring detached garage (reprise) > > -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics part 2 463 bytes content-type:null; (decode)

2004\08\25@124356 by M. Adam Davis

I would bond them together. There will be a ground loop, but if you don't bond them then neutral will be several or dozens of volts away from ground - not good. The problem gets worse with an intermittent or poor ground. I used an extension cord to power a computer across a basement once. The ground was bad somewhere along the line, and the computer case ended up floating and giving a nasty shock to anyone who touched it. If you bond the ground wire, the ground loop stays in wiring and not in equipment (and people) if you don't bond it then you have a potential problem since the ground loop may terminate in one of more pieces of electrical equipment (or they may push ground and neutral further apart). Treat the remote panel like a regular circuit breaker box - ground rod, bonded neutral. I am not a licensed electrician, though, so follow my advice at your own peril. -Adam Matt Redmond wrote: {Quote hidden}>Please no flaming about inspectors, etc... that we got off-topic on last time (the 'what cable gauge?' discussion)! I have another question about wiring my detached garage - this one is about grounding. > >The way I read things, I have two acceptable choices when it comes to grounding in the detached garage. They are: > >(a) Run H-H-N-G from main panel to garage. Do NOT bond N-G in the remote panel. > >(b) Run H-H-N from main panel to garage. DO bond N-G in the remote panel. > >In either case the garage gets its own earth ground. > >Any opinions on which is the 'betterer' approach. Any advantages to one over the other? I'm already going to be running 3-conductor cable + ground - any reason not to use (a)? > >Thanks! > >-matt redmond > >-- >http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics >(like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics > > > > > -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics

2004\08\25@124602 by Bob Ammerman

According to NEC, in the US: You should run H-H-N-G to the garage. Do NOT bond N to G in the garage. Do provide a grounding rod at the garage connected to G via some heavy wire. ie: your "A" is not only 'better', it is also 'right'. Bob Ammerman RAm Systems {Original Message removed}

2004\08\25@132828 by Joe Geller

NO, this is wrong. (bonding neutral to GND at a subpanel in an out building) 1) If the neutral is riding "several dozens of volts" above ground, the wire gauge is too small for the load. 2) The very point of the ground is to provide a safe working surface such as the cabinet. If you have an exposed shock hazard it is from improper grounding. 3) MOST important - If the wire gauge was so small that the neutral is riding so high above ground, then when a large fraction of the normal 'return' current (what should have been AC neutral) is flowing now through ground (in the improper installation), the ground potential at the cabinet can rise too! 4) If the circuits get really corrupted, where what should have been current in the neutral line, is now flowing into the gnd (earth) spike at the garage ... it can be flowing back to the house circuit through the earth between the buildings causing voltage potentials between your earth points, not good. The point is, NEVER use the ground circuit for normal return currents in place of the neutral circuit, which is what the improper installation in effect does. Ground circuits ideally have low impedance to the system ground, but little to no normal return current flow (what should be neutral current in single phase power circuit). On Wed, 25 Aug 2004 12:44:42 -0400, M. Adam Davis wrote: {Quote hidden}> I would bond them together. There will be a ground loop, but if > you don't bond them then neutral will be several or dozens of volts > away from ground - not good. > > The problem gets worse with an intermittent or poor ground. I used > an extension cord to power a computer across a basement once. The > ground was bad somewhere along the line, and the computer case > ended up floating and giving a nasty shock to anyone who touched it. > > If you bond the ground wire, the ground loop stays in wiring and > not in equipment (and people) if you don't bond it then you have a > potential problem since the ground loop may terminate in one of > more pieces of electrical equipment (or they may push ground and > neutral further apart). > > Treat the remote panel like a regular circuit breaker box - ground > rod, bonded neutral. > > I am not a licensed electrician, though, so follow my advice at > your own peril. > > -Adam > > Matt Redmond wrote: > >> Please no flaming about inspectors, etc... that we got off-topic >> on last time (the 'what cable gauge?' discussion)! I have >> another question about wiring my detached garage - this one is >> about grounding. >> >> The way I read things, I have two acceptable choices when it >> comes to grounding in the detached garage. They are: >> >> (a) Run H-H-N-G from main panel to garage. Do NOT bond N-G in >> the remote panel. >> >> (b) Run H-H-N from main panel to garage. DO bond N-G in the >> remote panel. >> >> In either case the garage gets its own earth ground. >> >> Any opinions on which is the 'betterer' approach. Any advantages >> to one over the other? I'm already going to be running 3- >> conductor cable + ground - any reason not to use (a)? >> >> Thanks! >> >> -matt redmond >> >> -- >> http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out >> subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See >> http://www.piclist.com/#topics >> >> > -- > http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out > subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See > http://www.piclist.com/#topics -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics

2004\08\25@132828 by Bob J

> ie: your "A" is not only 'better', it is also 'right'. Not to argue code, but how is it better? In the main box ground and neutral are connected so I don't see how having the ground wire in parallel is any better, especially since there is an earth ground at both locations. The code also says that if there is an existing three-wire going to the main box, it can be used as long as the ground wire is insulated, but this can't be done when running new wiring. Regards, Bob -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics

2004\08\25@134908 by Matt Redmond

Okay, Bob & everyone else who replied. Thanks very much. I'll run H-H-N-G, not bond N-G at the garage & will provide a nice, secure earth connection to the box and equipment ground. As an aside, why is it that the instant a municipality adopts regulations (e.g., NEC) they don't become public domain (like any other laws)? Seems to me unfair that we must follow these regulations but can't copy and distribute them freely. Off-topic I know... -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics

2004\08\25@135038 by M. Adam Davis

That all makes sense. Thanks for the analysis! Every time I do (or say, in this case) something really wrong, I always get more information than when I only go a little wrong. :-) -Adam Joe Geller wrote: {Quote hidden}>NO, this is wrong. (bonding neutral to GND at a subpanel in an out building) 1) If the neutral is riding "several dozens of volts" above ground, the wire gauge is too small for the load. 2) The very point of the ground is to provide a safe working surface such as the cabinet. If you have an exposed shock hazard it is from improper grounding. 3) MOST important - If the wire gauge was so small that the neutral is riding so high above ground, then when a large fraction of the normal 'return' current (what should have been AC neutral) is flowing now through ground (in the improper installation), the ground potential at the cabinet can rise too! 4) If the circuits get really corrupted, where what should have been current in the neutral line, is now flowing into the gnd (earth) spike at the garage ... it can be flowing back to the house circuit through the earth between the buildings causing voltage potentials between your earth points, not good. > >The point is, NEVER use the ground circuit for normal return currents in place of the neutral circuit, which is what the improper installation in effect does. Ground circuits ideally have low impedance to the system ground, but little to no normal return current flow (what should be neutral current in single phase power circuit). > >On Wed, 25 Aug 2004 12:44:42 -0400, M. Adam Davis wrote: > > >> I would bond them together. There will be a ground loop, but if >> you don't bond them then neutral will be several or dozens of volts >> away from ground - not good. >> >> The problem gets worse with an intermittent or poor ground. I used >> an extension cord to power a computer across a basement once. The >> ground was bad somewhere along the line, and the computer case >> ended up floating and giving a nasty shock to anyone who touched it. >> >> If you bond the ground wire, the ground loop stays in wiring and >> not in equipment (and people) if you don't bond it then you have a >> potential problem since the ground loop may terminate in one of >> more pieces of electrical equipment (or they may push ground and >> neutral further apart). >> >> Treat the remote panel like a regular circuit breaker box - ground >> rod, bonded neutral. >> >> I am not a licensed electrician, though, so follow my advice at >> your own peril. >> >> -Adam >> >> Matt Redmond wrote: >> >> >> >>> Please no flaming about inspectors, etc... that we got off-topic >>> on last time (the 'what cable gauge?' discussion)! I have >>> another question about wiring my detached garage - this one is >>> about grounding. >>> >>> The way I read things, I have two acceptable choices when it >>> comes to grounding in the detached garage. They are: >>> >>> (a) Run H-H-N-G from main panel to garage. Do NOT bond N-G in >>> the remote panel. >>> >>> (b) Run H-H-N from main panel to garage. DO bond N-G in the >>> remote panel. >>> >>> In either case the garage gets its own earth ground. >>> >>> Any opinions on which is the 'betterer' approach. Any advantages >>> to one over the other? I'm already going to be running 3- >>> conductor cable + ground - any reason not to use (a)? >>> >>> Thanks! >>> >>> -matt redmond >>> >>> -- >>> http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out >>> subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See >>> http://www.piclist.com/#topics >>> >>> >>> >>> >> -- >> http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out >> subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See >> http://www.piclist.com/#topics >> >> > > >-- >http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics >(like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics > > > > > -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics

2004\08\25@135911 by Gary Neal

Preach on Brother Matt. I agree completely. Always thought it was ludicrous that the NEC is not available on a free basis. I can see charging for a paper copy, but why not distribute electronically free? >As an aside, why is it that the instant a municipality adopts regulations >(e.g., NEC) they don't become public domain (like any other laws)? Seems >to me unfair that we must follow these regulations but can't copy and >distribute them freely. Off-topic I know... -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics

2004\08\25@140741 by Matt Redmond

Hmmm. This would be interesting to test in court. I mean, if my city adopted the NEC, then if I published it freely on the 'net I could simply claim I'm publishing my city's laws - which is perfectly legal. If anyone 'stole' the NEC, it was the city, not me! {Quote hidden}> > From: Gary Neal <gln103KILLspamPSU.EDU> > Date: 2004/08/25 Wed PM 05:57:28 GMT > To: .....PICLISTKILLspam.....MITVMA.MIT.EDU > Subject: Re: [OT:] Wiring detached garage (reprise) > > Preach on Brother Matt. I agree completely. Always thought it was > ludicrous that the NEC is not available on a free basis. I can see > charging for a paper copy, but why not distribute electronically free? > > > >As an aside, why is it that the instant a municipality adopts regulations > >(e.g., NEC) they don't become public domain (like any other laws)? Seems > >to me unfair that we must follow these regulations but can't copy and > >distribute them freely. Off-topic I know... > > -- > http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics > (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics > -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics

2004\08\25@142155 by Bob J

Why would you want something for free, if you could pay someone $50/hr to find out for you. :) Regards, Bob Gary Neal <EraseMEgln103spam_OUTTakeThisOuTPSU.EDU> wrote .. {Quote hidden}> Preach on Brother Matt. I agree completely. Always thought it was > ludicrous that the NEC is not available on a free basis. I can see > charging for a paper copy, but why not distribute electronically free? > > > >As an aside, why is it that the instant a municipality adopts regulations > >(e.g., NEC) they don't become public domain (like any other laws)? Seems > >to me unfair that we must follow these regulations but can't copy and > >distribute them freely. Off-topic I know... > > -- > http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics > (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics

2004\08\25@145121 by M. Adam Davis

I suspect that as long as the city made it 'reasonably free' (as in beer) through libraries or on loan (perhaps with small deposit) from the engineer's office, then the courts would consider that 'good enough'. The only problem I've found is that due to the size and cost of the volumes, the library doesn't loan them - they are for in library reference only here. -Adam Gary Neal wrote: {Quote hidden}> Preach on Brother Matt. I agree completely. Always thought it was > ludicrous that the NEC is not available on a free basis. I can see > charging for a paper copy, but why not distribute electronically free? > > >> As an aside, why is it that the instant a municipality adopts >> regulations >> (e.g., NEC) they don't become public domain (like any other laws)? >> Seems >> to me unfair that we must follow these regulations but can't copy and >> distribute them freely. Off-topic I know... > > > -- > http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics > (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics > > > -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics

2004\08\25@145329 by Dwayne Reid

At 10:02 AM 8/25/2004, Matt Redmond wrote: >Bob, > >I'm going to be running 3-conductor plus ground anyway - my uncle is in >the cable business - it's free :-) > >All he has in an 'odd length' long enough for me is 3 conductor + >ground. So if I run H-H-N then the ground wire will still be there - just >disconnected on both ends. I wouldn't leave the ground wire disconnected - you have it already.. Go with your first thought: H-H-N-G, add the extra ground rod at the garage end like you suggested, do NOT bond G-N at the garage. Extra ground rod(s) at sub panel is not disallowed. NEC states that G-N bond happens only at meter socket and main disconnect. dwayne -- Dwayne Reid <dwaynerspam_OUTplanet.eon.net> Trinity Electronics Systems Ltd Edmonton, AB, CANADA (780) 489-3199 voice (780) 487-6397 fax Celebrating 20 years of Engineering Innovation (1984 - 2004) .-. .-. .-. .-. .-. .-. .-. .-. .-. .- `-' `-' `-' `-' `-' `-' `-' `-' `-' Do NOT send unsolicited commercial email to this email address. This message neither grants consent to receive unsolicited commercial email nor is intended to solicit commercial email. -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics

2004\08\25@150421 by Matt Redmond

The question of publishing laws freely has been decided in some cases involving West Publishing, which sought to prevent the publication of some state statutes it had its hand in. They got spanked and it was ruled that public laws are public laws - nobody can claim copyright rights in them. The difference with the NEC is that it is devised by the NFPA, but then adopted by cities. My city uses the following terminology in its adoption of the NEC: "The 1999 National Electrical Code as published by the National Fire Protection Association, a copy of which shall be filed with the office of the city secretary and available for public inspection, is hereby adopted and designated as the electrical code of the city, the same as though that edition of such code were copied at length herein, subject to deletions and amendments enumerated in section 28-62." Now it seems to me that this means that the electrical code of the city now reads identically to the NEC. Now why can't I publish my city's electrical code? >>I suspect that as long as the city made it 'reasonably free' (as in beer) through libraries or on loan (perhaps with small deposit) from the engineer's office, then the courts would consider that 'good enough'.<< -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics

2004\08\25@150537 by David Hawkins

Stealing your thread for a somewhat related question. I want to use a 220V 30A dryer outlet (no longer used since we have a gas dryer) for a subpanel in an _attached_ garage. I want 2x 120V 20A circuts for a table saw, air compressor, etc. After turning off the breaker I removed the outlet and found H-H-N (no ground). Sounds like I might be outta luck. But my house is built on a concrete slab. I'm fairly certain that the wiring for this circuit in in conduit as opposed to UG type cable. I will verify this when I cut out the sheetrock. Would it be a bad idea and therefore unsafe to use the conduit for ground? Any idea if it would have been code in Southern California in 1964 to require that the conduit be a reliable (low impedance) ground? Thanks, David > The point is, NEVER use the ground circuit for normal return > currents in place of the neutral circuit, which is what the > improper installation in effect does. Ground circuits ideally > have low impedance to the system ground, but little to no normal > return current flow (what should be neutral current in single > phase power circuit). -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics

2004\08\25@150951 by Bob Ammerman

> > ie: your "A" is not only 'better', it is also 'right'. > > Not to argue code, but how is it better? In the main box ground and neutral are connected so I don't see how having the ground wire in parallel is any better, especially since there is an earth ground at both locations. The code also says that if there is an existing three-wire going to the main box, it can be used as long as the ground wire is insulated, but this can't be done when running new wiring. -- Remember the purpose of N vs. G. The first provides a return path for the current you use, the latter is for protective purposes only. Under non-fault conditions there will be no current in any G wiring, so by definition no 'ground loop' issues. N can float a few volts above G under heavy load, but short of a fault shouldn't be any higher than that. Bob Ammerman RAm Systems -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics

2004\08\25@152408 by Matt Redmond

>>After turning off the breaker I removed the outlet and found H-H-N (no ground). Sounds like I might be outta luck.<< Hmmm. I could be wrong & perhaps it isn't the case due to the age of your house (?). But if I encountered a 240V outlet with three wires in it, I'd think they were H-H-G with no neutral - in which case, yes, you'd be out of luck if you want 120V out of it. Can't say anything on the second question - let someone else chime in. -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics

2004\08\25@152824 by Matt Redmond

Ruh roh... Ignore my previous. A quick google revealed that perhaps you do have hot/hot/neutral with no ground. I guess they did this a while back... {Quote hidden}> > From: David Hawkins <@spam@david.hawkinsKILLspamSTALWORTH.COM> > Date: 2004/08/25 Wed PM 06:52:50 GMT > To: KILLspamPICLISTKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU > Subject: Re: [OT:] Wiring detached garage (reprise) > > Stealing your thread for a somewhat related question. I want to > use a 220V 30A dryer outlet (no longer used since we have a gas > dryer) for a subpanel in an _attached_ garage. I want 2x 120V 20A > circuts for a table saw, air compressor, etc. After turning off > the breaker I removed the outlet and found H-H-N (no ground). > Sounds like I might be outta luck. > > But my house is built on a concrete slab. I'm fairly certain > that the wiring for this circuit in in conduit as opposed to > UG type cable. I will verify this when I cut out the sheetrock. > Would it be a bad idea and therefore unsafe to use the conduit > for ground? Any idea if it would have been code in Southern > California in 1964 to require that the conduit be a reliable > (low impedance) ground? > > Thanks, > David > > > The point is, NEVER use the ground circuit for normal return > > currents in place of the neutral circuit, which is what the > > improper installation in effect does. Ground circuits ideally > > have low impedance to the system ground, but little to no normal > > return current flow (what should be neutral current in single > > phase power circuit). > > -- > http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics > (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics > -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics

2004\08\25@154728 by David Hawkins

> Ruh roh... Ignore my previous. A quick google revealed that > perhaps you do have hot/hot/neutral with no ground. I guess they > did this a while back... I didn't look in the breaker panel which I probably should have. I just assumed that it was neutral because there was a black, red, and white wire. -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics

2004\08\25@172352 by Paul Hutchinson

>-----Original Message----- >[RemoveMEPICLISTTakeThisOuTMITVMA.MIT.EDU]On Behalf Of Matt Redmond >Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2004 1:49 PM > <snip> >As an aside, why is it that the instant a municipality adopts >regulations (e.g., NEC) they don't become public domain (like any >other laws)? Seems to me unfair that we must follow these >regulations but can't copy and distribute them freely. Off-topic I know... The creation and maintenance of the NEC is paid for by an non-government, non-profit organization, the NFPA (National Fire Protection Association). http://www.nfpa.org The fees for the standards help pay for the creation and maintenance of the standards. Paul -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics

2004\08\25@173144 by Matt Redmond

I don't dispute any of that, and I certainly admire their work - but that's not the point. The point is that laws - all laws - belong (or should belong) to the public and should be freely available. 'Free' does not mean 'free if you care to drive to the city secretary's office'. If I'm going to be held to the letter of a law under the threat of criminal or civil penalties, then by God I have the right to have a copy of that law in my hands for ready reference - at no cost beyond perhaps photocopying it. >>The creation and maintenance of the NEC is paid for by an non-government, non-profit organization, the NFPA (National Fire Protection Association). The fees for the standards help pay for the creation and maintenance of the standards.<< -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics

2004\08\25@173559 by Josh Koffman

I agree with you, but just out of curiousity, can you do any of that with the criminal code (or whatever it's called down there)? I've never tried to look at it, but I bet I could view it or photocopy it at a library. I'm sure it's the same with the NEC. I sincerely doubt there is an office that sends out free copies of all the laws in the USA. Or I might be way off base. Josh -- A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools. -Douglas Adams On Wed, 25 Aug 2004 21:31:10 +0000, Matt Redmond <spamBeGonemdredmondspamBeGonecharter.net> wrote: > I don't dispute any of that, and I certainly admire their work - but that's not the point. The point is that laws - all laws - belong (or should belong) to the public and should be freely available. 'Free' does not mean 'free if you care to drive to the city secretary's office'. > > If I'm going to be held to the letter of a law under the threat of criminal or civil penalties, then by God I have the right to have a copy of that law in my hands for ready reference - at no cost beyond perhaps photocopying it. -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics

2004\08\25@173808 by Joe Jansen

That's all well and good, but if it is promoted as something that should be made into a municipal code, then once it is adopted, it should be freely available to anyone expected to live by the code. I am *VERY* uncomfortable with the thought that I am expected to obey certain laws, but I must pay someone money in order to know what those laws consist of. I don't care how wonderful the recipient is. --Joe On Wed, 25 Aug 2004 17:17:19 -0400, Paul Hutchinson <TakeThisOuTpaullhutchinsonEraseMEspam_OUTyahoo.com> wrote: > >{Original Message removed}

2004\08\25@174637 by Matt Redmond

Yes, you can. You can copy & distribute (even sell) any law in the nation freely. Once adopted by a jurisdiction (city/state/federal) they are considered public property. To quote a Federal Court a long time ago: "It was suggested in argument that no one can obtain the exclusive right to publish the laws of a state in a book prepared by him. This general proposition cannot be doubted. And it may also be said that any person desiring to publish the statutes of a state may use any copy of such statutes to be found in any printed book, whether such book is the property of the state or the property of an individual. Howell v. Miller, 91 F. 129, 137 (6th Cir. 1898). -matt redmond {Quote hidden}> > From: Josh Koffman <RemoveMEjoshybearTakeThisOuTGMAIL.COM> > Date: 2004/08/25 Wed PM 09:35:52 GMT > To: PICLISTEraseME.....MITVMA.MIT.EDU > Subject: Re: [OT:] Wiring detached garage (reprise) > > I agree with you, but just out of curiousity, can you do any of that > with the criminal code (or whatever it's called down there)? I've > never tried to look at it, but I bet I could view it or photocopy it > at a library. I'm sure it's the same with the NEC. I sincerely doubt > there is an office that sends out free copies of all the laws in the > USA. > > Or I might be way off base. > > Josh > -- > A common mistake that people make when trying to design something > completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete > fools. > -Douglas Adams > > On Wed, 25 Aug 2004 21:31:10 +0000, Matt Redmond <EraseMEmdredmondcharter.net> wrote: > > I don't dispute any of that, and I certainly admire their work - but that's not the point. The point is that laws - all laws - belong (or should belong) to the public and should be freely available. 'Free' does not mean 'free if you care to drive to the city secretary's office'. > > > > If I'm going to be held to the letter of a law under the threat of criminal or civil penalties, then by God I have the right to have a copy of that law in my hands for ready reference - at no cost beyond perhaps photocopying it. > > -- > http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics > (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics > -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics

2004\08\25@175052 by Matt Redmond

Josh, I forgot to address this: "I sincerely doubt there is an office that sends out free copies of all the laws in the USA." No, of course there is not. However, I am free to photocopy, recompile, distribute, sell, etc... the laws once I get my hands on them. I suspect if I did the same with the NEC I'd get dragged into court fairly quickly. I think I would have a winnable position, but then, winning in court is a relative thing. I'd be out big bucks in attorney's fees, etc... -matt redmond {Quote hidden}> > From: Josh Koffman <RemoveMEjoshybearEraseMEEraseMEGMAIL.COM> > Date: 2004/08/25 Wed PM 09:35:52 GMT > To: RemoveMEPICLISTspam_OUTKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU > Subject: Re: [OT:] Wiring detached garage (reprise) > > I agree with you, but just out of curiousity, can you do any of that > with the criminal code (or whatever it's called down there)? I've > never tried to look at it, but I bet I could view it or photocopy it > at a library. I'm sure it's the same with the NEC. I sincerely doubt > there is an office that sends out free copies of all the laws in the > USA. > > Or I might be way off base. > > Josh > -- > A common mistake that people make when trying to design something > completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete > fools. > -Douglas Adams > > On Wed, 25 Aug 2004 21:31:10 +0000, Matt Redmond <RemoveMEmdredmondTakeThisOuTspamcharter.net> wrote: > > I don't dispute any of that, and I certainly admire their work - but that's not the point. The point is that laws - all laws - belong (or should belong) to the public and should be freely available. 'Free' does not mean 'free if you care to drive to the city secretary's office'. > > > > If I'm going to be held to the letter of a law under the threat of criminal or civil penalties, then by God I have the right to have a copy of that law in my hands for ready reference - at no cost beyond perhaps photocopying it. > > -- > http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics > (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics > -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics

2004\08\25@182448 by Lawrence Lile

Yow! The National Electric Code sez that only one panel in a building may have a bonding jumper from Neutral to ground. There also can be only one connection from ground (ground rods and such) to the main panel. You may have many grounding devices (ground rod, cadweld to building steel, or wire to concrete rebar) but this grounding system may connect to the electrical system at only one point. The reason is, just like people have mentioned, ground loops. They affect more than signal wiring. -- Lawrence Lile, P.E. Electrical and Electronic Solutions Project Solutions Companies http://www.projsolco.com 573-443-7100 ext 221 > {Original Message removed}

2004\08\25@214834 by Bob Ammerman

> Stealing your thread for a somewhat related question. I want to > use a 220V 30A dryer outlet (no longer used since we have a gas > dryer) for a subpanel in an _attached_ garage. I want 2x 120V 20A > circuts for a table saw, air compressor, etc. After turning off > the breaker I removed the outlet and found H-H-N (no ground). > Sounds like I might be outta luck. > You could repurpose your existing conductors as H-N-G. Feed with one side of the existing 30A breaker. Put in a subpanel with two 20A breakers. You will have two 20A circuits, but you can't you them both to full capacity at the same time. Bob Ammerman RAm Systems -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics

2004\08\26@081200 by Lawrence Lile

Heck in 1964 they didn't ground *anything*. I think two-prong outlets were still legal. It is not uncommon to find dryers that do not have a fourth wire for neutral. The third plug on this thing is *supposed* to be connected to ground (not neutral) and there is *supposed* not to be any current on that wire in normal use. Safe bet that neither of those statements are actually true. -- Lawrence Lile, P.E. Electrical and Electronic Solutions Project Solutions Companies http://www.projsolco.com 573-443-7100 ext 221 > {Original Message removed}

2004\08\26@081201 by Lawrence Lile

Ah, here is the rub. We are used to ground loops in, say, a 4-20mA controller loop causing headaches. A difference of potential on the ground wire of a few millivolts causes us to tear out hair and gnash teeth. Imagine a power system, with wires as big as your thumb, that creates a ground loop of, say, a few hundred feet in diameter. Now imagine a lightning strike into that loop. What kind of current might flow in that loop? If the lightning strike is next door, what kind of potential difference exists in two ground rods a few tens of feet apart? Answer: Lots. How much current? Answer: Lots Similarly, the voltage at two points in the earth is not the same, especially with heavy power equipment around. It is not unheard of to find a big potential difference between two points in the earth, particularly if you are near a substation or something big. One of the reasons not to have ground loops in power systems (single point connection) is to avoid problems that crop up in these situations. -- Lawrence Lile, P.E. Electrical and Electronic Solutions Project Solutions Companies http://www.projsolco.com 573-443-7100 ext 221 > {Original Message removed}

2004\08\26@093620 by John Ferrell

Multiple grounds are not always a good idea when it comes to lightning protection. Its a whole new subject... John Ferrell http://DixieNC.US {Original Message removed}

2004\08\26@114009 by Matt Redmond

John, So I've heard. That is a concern of mine with regard to this garage project of mine. It isn't as simple as I've made it sound. The garage and house are actually attached by a covered walkway about 20' long. There is a light on the back porch of the house that is controlled by a three-way switch in the garage. So I have wiring from the house (that uses the house earth ground) coming into the garage (which will have its own earth ground). These wires will be in close proximity to each other & in case of a lightning strike, I afraid of possible arcing between them. I don't know if this fear is realistic or not. The earth grounds will be connected together. > From: John Ferrell <EraseMEjohnferrellspamspamBeGoneearthlink.net> > Date: 2004/08/26 Thu PM 01:35:26 GMT > To: RemoveMEPICLISTKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU > Subject: Re: [OT:] Wiring detached garage (reprise) > > Multiple grounds are not always a good idea when it comes to lightning > protection. > Its a whole new subject... > -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.

2004\08\26@130531 by David Hawkins

Will a 220V breaker trip at the designated current when only using one leg? I thought that this was dangerous. > You could repurpose your existing conductors as H-N-G. Feed with > one side of the existing 30A breaker. > Put in a subpanel with two 20A breakers. You will have two 20A circuits, > but you can't you them both to full capacity at the same time. -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.

2004\08\26@131813 by Bob Axtell

No. 220V breakers will trip BOTH legs when one legs exceeds rating. --Bob David Hawkins wrote: {Quote hidden}>Will a 220V breaker trip at the designated current when only using >one leg? I thought that this was dangerous. > > > >>You could repurpose your existing conductors as H-N-G. Feed with >>one side of the existing 30A breaker. >>Put in a subpanel with two 20A breakers. You will have two 20A circuits, >>but you can't you them both to full capacity at the same time. >> >> > >-- >http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different >ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details. > > > > -- Note: Attachments must be sent to attachSTOPspamspam_OUTengineer.cotse.net, and MAY delay replies to this message. 520-219-2363 -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.

2004\08\26@133022 by David Hawkins

Okay, well that sounds like what I should do. Thanks everyone. > No. 220V breakers will trip BOTH legs when one legs exceeds rating. > > >>You could repurpose your existing conductors as H-N-G. Feed with > >>one side of the existing 30A breaker. > >>Put in a subpanel with two 20A breakers. You will have two 20A > circuits, > >>but you can't you them both to full capacity at the same time. -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.

2004\08\26@181601 by John Ferrell

I have two grounds and a definite lightning strike problem. The grounds are about 35 feet apart. The one in the front grounds the invisible fence for the dog and the cable TV entry. The one in the back grounds the telephone & power. All wiring is underground. IF I tie the grounds together, I can either go through the basement on the ceiling with 35 feet of wire or I can run about 100 feet around the house the outside way. So far, I am reluctant to tie them together. BTW, I took my first damaging lightning strike in 1993 and there was only the power/phone ground at that time. To add a little fog in the picture I have Ham radio tower that is normally grounded to its own ground with cables disconnected. What would you guys change and why. The experts are no help at all. John Ferrell http://DixieNC.US ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lawrence Lile" <spamBeGonellileSTOPspamEraseMEPROJSOLCO.COM> To: <KILLspamPICLISTspamBeGoneMITVMA.MIT.EDU> Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2004 8:07 AM Subject: Re: [OT:] Wiring detached garage (reprise) Ah, here is the rub. We are used to ground loops in, say, a 4-20mA controller loop causing headaches. A difference of potential on the ground wire of a few millivolts causes us to tear out hair and gnash teeth. Imagine a power system, with wires as big as your thumb, that creates a ground loop of, say, a few hundred feet in diameter. Now imagine a lightning strike into that loop. What kind of current might flow in that loop? If the lightning strike is next door, what kind of potential difference exists in two ground rods a few tens of feet apart? Answer: Lots. How much current? Answer: Lots Similarly, the voltage at two points in the earth is not the same, especially with heavy power equipment around. It is not unheard of to find a big potential difference between two points in the earth, particularly if you are near a substation or something big. One of the reasons not to have ground loops in power systems (single point connection) is to avoid problems that crop up in these situations. -- Lawrence Lile, P.E. Electrical and Electronic Solutions Project Solutions Companies http://www.projsolco.com 573-443-7100 ext 221 > {Original Message removed}

2004\08\26@194535 by Bob Ammerman

> Will a 220V breaker trip at the designated current when only using > one leg? I thought that this was dangerous. It certainly should! If you are concerned you could use a single phase 30A breaker instead. Bob Ammerman RAm Systems > > You could repurpose your existing conductors as H-N-G. Feed with > > one side of the existing 30A breaker. > > Put in a subpanel with two 20A breakers. You will have two 20A circuits, > > but you can't you them both to full capacity at the same time. -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.

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