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'[OT:] USA slow learner re cattle Prion diseases'
2004\07\12@085256 by Russell McMahon

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Hopefully not too slow !!! :-(

In US it is STILL legal and current practice to feed blood, excrement and
feathers from chickens to cattle. And legal to feed chickens by products
from cattle. So that ....


http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/10/politics/10cow.html?th=&pagewanted=print&position=

Hopefully this will change very shortly.
But, even if they stopped feeding cattle by-products to chickens, how does
that make you feel about your beef ? :-)

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contact me OFFLIST and I will send it to you.

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2004\07\12@093450 by Randy Glenn

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This may be of use to those averse to registration:

http://nytimes.blogspace.com/genlink

On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 00:51:57 +1200, Russell McMahon
<spam_OUTapptechTakeThisOuTspamparadise.net.nz> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2004\07\12@110447 by Roy J. Gromlich

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Yes it does need registration to view - something I refuse to do.
No, I don't want to read it that much.

I just wish there were a way to communicate to organizations like the NYT
(and many others) that there are many people who feel it is none of their
business how old I am, where I live, or anything else about me. They don't
rquire me to identify myself to buy their paper on a news stand, and I
won't do so to read an article from it on line.

Just my personal opinion.

Roy J. Gromlich

>> This page may or may not need a free registration to view.
> If you are terminally averse to registering and REALLY want to see the
> page contact me OFFLIST and I will send it to you.
>

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2004\07\12@121024 by Bob Blick

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> This page may or may not need a free registration to view.
> If you are terminally averse to registering and REALLY want to see the
> page

That's what bugmenot.com is for - or better still, run Firefox as your
browser and use the bugmenot plugin!

-Bob

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2004\07\12@142558 by Robert B.

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If they could collect $0.50 for letting you view it onine(like at the
news-stand), I'm sure they'd be obliged to take that route directly.  They
are essentially giving away their work for free online, so I don't mind
giving them a bit of insight into their reading audience so they can target
their ads a bit better and up the quality of articles, etc.


{Original Message removed}

2004\07\12@151931 by Carey Fisher - NCS

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  >
  > I just wish there were a way to communicate to organizations
  > like the NYT
  > (and many others) that there are many people who feel it is
  > none of their
  > business how old I am, where I live, or anything else about
  > me. They don't
  > rquire me to identify myself to buy their paper on a news stand, and I
  > won't do so to read an article from it on line.
  >
  > Just my personal opinion.
  >
  > Roy J. Gromlich
  >
 Why don't you just lie to them on the registration form?  Eventually
they'll realize that bad data is worse than no data.

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2004\07\12@162757 by hilip Stortz

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frankly, having raised livestock on a small farm, i'm appalled at the
way livestock is generally treated, fed, and otherwise abused.  when we
bread pigs, we always had litters of over a dozen piglets, and they all
lived, in commercial operations they never have that many born and many
don't survive.  the way animals are farmed and processed in this country
is appalling in the extreme, our slaughter houses process animals over
10 times as fast as any european country.  not because we are better at
it, but because we are more sloppy which is how you get e-coli (from
feces in the intestines) in beef here when it's unheard of in most parts
of the world.  same goes for chicken and turkey.

we fed our animals properly and took good care of them, they were much
healthier and much, much tastier when slaughtered.  most people would be
appalled if they saw the way commercial feedlots operate, the animals
are always walking around in their own waste, forming a disgusting mud
because they cram too many animals into a given space and don't move
them from pen to pen often enough.  as far as prions, fortunately it's a
small problem, but it is being grossly ignored like most health threats
that happen to require solutions that make an industry less profitable.
it's short sightedness in the extreme, and greed in the extreme.

if you exposed your dog or cat to the conditions under which livestock
are commonly raised you'd be fined and jailed for animal cruelty.  and
most people don't seem to realize that animals that live in a stressful
environment produce a lot of stress related hormones, that those
hormones wind up in the meat, and the hormone systems tend to be
preserved, i.e. most mammals use the same hormones for the same things,
meaning you are in fact exposing your body to many of the harmful
effects of stress when you eat meat from stressed animals.  aside from
the moral issues, this is just plain stupid!

Russell McMahon wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2004\07\12@180553 by Robert B.

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You're right about the stress hormones being produced, and technically
correct about exposing yourself to them when you eat the meat, but ingestion
is very different from injection, and most of the hormones get denatured
when you cook the meat anyway.  So its a bit of a stretch to point to that
as a serious problem IMHO.  No doubt healthy animals taste better though,
even big wild animals in healthy condition taste better than a dirty old
stressed-out heifer.


{Original Message removed}

2004\07\12@195324 by John Ferrell

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"even big wild animals in healthy condition taste better than a dirty old
stressed-out heifer."
A big old tough deer has meat tougher than the cow's hide... You have to
develop a taste for it. Wild meat nearly always has some sort of parasites,
cook it well...
There are few critters nastier than chickens or tastier than chickens.

Feed lots are a shock, but range raised beef are not nearly as palatable.

John Ferrell
http://DixieNC.US

{Original Message removed}

2004\07\12@222726 by James Newton, Host

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Pardon my outburst but:

DAMN STRAIGHT!

Faster, cheaper, more more more is NOT better when it comes to food.
Automation and industrialization and shipping are great for just about
anything else, but NOT FOR FOOD! I personally no longer wish to put things
in my body that were made by anyone I don't personally know and approve of.
http://www.massmind.org/techref/other/homes

More below...

> {Original Message removed}

2004\07\13@004321 by Russell McMahon

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> Faster, cheaper, more more more is NOT better when it comes to food.

As my cousin Martin observes -

   "Eat NZ beef - you'd be mad not to..."

:-)

or is that :-(

(But such hubris will only last so long I imagine).


       RM

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2004\07\13@011608 by Denny Esterline

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> Pardon my outburst but:
>
> DAMN STRAIGHT!
>
> Faster, cheaper, more more more is NOT better when it comes to food.
> Automation and industrialization and shipping are great for just about
> anything else, but NOT FOR FOOD! .

This is actually my main argument *against* irradiation of food. When they
have a way to sterilize the food after packaging there will be no incentive
to use care in processing.

-Denny

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2004\07\13@033859 by dr. Imre Bartfai

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At least, pigs living in stressfull environment tends to produce a special
"deformation" of meat when slaughtered. It is called PSE (pale, soft,
exsudative). Such meat is more worthless so the customer ends up to pay
the same amount for a half-valued meat. This is especially rigth for
circumstances immediately before slaughtering i. e. transport. Another
kind of stress-caused transformation is the DFD-meat (dark, firm, dry),
which also is not a blessing for a gourmet.
FYI
Imre


On Mon, 12 Jul 2004, Robert B. wrote:

> You're right about the stress hormones being produced, and technically
> correct about exposing yourself to them when you eat the meat, but ingestion
> is very different from injection, and most of the hormones get denatured
> when you cook the meat anyway.  So its a bit of a stretch to point to that
> as a serious problem IMHO.  No doubt healthy animals taste better though,
> even big wild animals in healthy condition taste better than a dirty old
> stressed-out heifer.
>
>
> {Original Message removed}

2004\07\13@045503 by Howard Winter

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James,

On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 19:15:38 -0700, James Newton, Host
wrote:

> Pardon my outburst but:

That's OK, we all like to do that once in a while, and I
happen to agree with most of what you said!

But one question: Do they not sell "Free Range" eggs
over there?

It's what I always buy, and the price difference isn't
major, so I wonder why people buy the others.

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England

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2004\07\14@121749 by Aaron G.

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On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 19:15:38 -0700 "James Newton, Host"
<EraseMEjamesnewtonspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTPICLIST.COM> writes:
> You can crack the best egg you can find at the grocery store into a
> bowl next to one of the eggs from my "urban chickens" and the
difference
> is like night and day. My eggs are dark, rich, and full. The commercial
eggs
> are pale, watery, and have no consistency. We average $5 a month in
feed
> for them and I do NO maintenance, have NO smell, and really rich
compost
> for my other plants.
> http://techref.massmind.org/techref/other/chickens.htm

James,

Come see me in a couple of months and you can have some bacon and sausage
to go with your eggs!
http://www.bright.net/~agarb/Pork.jpg  (111kb)

And for dinner, we'll grill some steaks!
http://www.bright.net/~agarb/Beef.jpg  (150kb)

Aaron

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2004\07\14@140823 by James Newton, Host

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Awwww! Aaron, those are just too cute to eat!

(ok the wife left, where do you live? <DROOL> How much ham can I get per
dozen eggs? Interested in fish down the road?)

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> {Original Message removed}

2004\07\14@202142 by hilip Stortz

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i don't know, i love range fed buffalo, which admittedly is a little
tougher and so lean that when ground you have to mix beef in with it,
but it's not bad.  then again i love wild foul, nothing like wild ducks
and geese!  wish i were in good enough shape to hunt or that my brother
had the time again....  as far as dear and antelope, i think they would
be tough no matter how fed, and a lot of them live on land that's too
lean for cattle, you have to expect an animal that lives on the fringes
to be tough, but some are tough even if well fed.

on the other hand, we had an old sow pig (we bread pigs for a while)
that was over 6 years old (probably more than that) and easily 600+
pounds, fed her nothing but grain for a couple of months (she was past
her prime for breeding stock) and sent her off to the slaughter house.
best pork chops i ever had, and they hung off both sides of your plate!

grain fed is definitely more tender than range fed, though some animals
get both, and i can deal with tougher meat that's had the feces properly
recycled by a plant before being re-fed, not a smart short cut to take
but a profitable one, sadly.

John Ferrell wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2004\07\14@204113 by hilip Stortz

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you know why it scares me?  not because i'm worried about residual
radiation, that's easy to test for (even by motivated consumers), it's
the fact that you are using ionizing radiation, precisely because it is
ionizing and randomly severs chemical bonds, some of those happen to be
in the genes of any organisms.  however, most of the molecules don't
happen to be genes, and in both cases, you now have 2 molecule "pieces"
that are not chemically stable, in a soup of other random fragments,
aren't you going to get an awful lot of exotic molecules?  doesn't it
seem likely that some of those might be bad?

i mean i'm sure some might be good, you might make some penicillin or
even cipro from the beef tissue, but your going to be making a lot of
very interesting molecules, each in small quantity so they are very,
very hard to identify and study even if you can extract "similar"
compounds out as a group for testing.  just think about that stupid
chemistry experiment for a while!

not to mention, these stupid things typically use a cesium source!  talk
about a terrorist target!  sure, the workers don't have easy access,
typically parcels go through a slot on a belt, but it's pretty damn easy
to design a thermite package to go through the slot and go off when the
radiation level gets high!  then you've got the metal around the source
and eventually the source burning producing a huge radioactive cloud,
some spots very hot, some spots not, and who knows where the wind blew
it and how fast the rain washed it down.  how's that for terror?

p.s., i'm hardly saying anything the stupid and insane can't figure out
by themselves, technology is easy to attack with relatively primitive
weapons.  after all, most buildings come with all you need to blow them
up (think gas main..., gas explosions in large spaces are far worse then
a high explosive charge).  again, to those who think i've let the lion
out of the bag, it's hardly anything that isn't known and easy to find.
fortunately the truly violent are usually, usually not very competent, usually...

honest folks, if anyone wants to blow up your town, it's not that hard,
and it's not much harder than it was pre 9/11.  only removing motivation
by removing frustration will really help, and that's cheap by
comparison, just not politically exciting.

Denny Esterline wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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