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'[OT:] SMT soldering oven was: Death ..'
2004\07\03@155353 by Martin Klingensmith

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> Ah! http://www.johnlewis.com has a Tefal mini-oven listed at about #80. Claims to
> go
> up to 260 degrees C with a heat-to-240-degrees-C time of around 5 minutes.
> Given that Kenneth Maxon's article on SeattleRobotics.org lists 450F
> (about
> 235C by my calculations) as the maximum temperature used during soldering,
> I'd be tempted to think that it would work.
> Someone want to buy one of these things and try it out?

Add some Kaowool [fibrous high temp insulation] and it will reliably go up
to this temperature quicker.

{Quote hidden}

You've got me interested.

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2004\07\03@190318 by Philip Pemberton

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In message <4794.24.58.201.94.1088884436.squirrel@24.58.201.94>
         Martin Klingensmith <.....martinKILLspamspam@spam@NNYTECH.NET> wrote:

> Add some Kaowool [fibrous high temp insulation] and it will reliably go up
> to this temperature quicker.
Hmm. Never heard of that stuff - I'll have a look online later.

{Quote hidden}

I found a similar mini-oven in the Argos catalogue for about £50, so that's
probably a slightly better option. I don't feel like spending £80 on a
toaster oven, just to solder up a few boards, especially when my soldering
station only cost £65 :)
As far as temperature control goes, you'd need to override the oven's onboard
thermostat. If the oven was out of warranty, I'd rip the cover off and
replace the thermostat with a solid-state relay or a triac. Otherwise, the
best option (AFAICT) would be to lock the oven thermostat at maximum, then
let a PIC based circuit control the power externally. It also saves tracing
out wiring and the messy business of voiding warranties. I doubt any
reputable manufacturer would still offer a warranty on a toster oven that had
been used for SMD reflow, though :)

Later.
-- Phil.                              | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB,
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2004\07\03@234451 by Martin Klingensmith

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> In message <4794.24.58.201.94.1088884436.squirrel@24.58.201.94>
>           Martin Klingensmith <EraseMEmartinspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTNNYTECH.NET> wrote:
>
>> Add some Kaowool [fibrous high temp insulation] and it will reliably go
>> up
>> to this temperature quicker.
> Hmm. Never heard of that stuff - I'll have a look online later.
>

<infoarchive.net/sgroup/hobbicast/?keywords=kaowool+sources>
ITC-100 is another thing to look for. They're just different types of
insulation. ITC-100 I believe is colloidal zirconia and reflects almost
all infrared.



> I found a similar mini-oven in the Argos catalogue for about #50, so
> that's
> probably a slightly better option. I don't feel like spending #80 on a
> toaster oven, just to solder up a few boards, especially when my soldering
> station only cost #65 :)

You could even take a metal box, but some suitable insulation or fire
bricks in it, and buy some nichrome wire to make your own. It should cost
less and be better for the relatively high temperature.

{Quote hidden}

I wouldn't ever buy a new toaster oven to solder boards in anyway :)
A J or K thermocouple circut with a very simple microcontroller would work
well for this.
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2004\07\04@015228 by William Chops Westfield

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On Jul 3, 2004, at 8:45 PM, Martin Klingensmith wrote:

> I wouldn't ever buy a new toaster oven to solder boards in anyway :)
>
Right.  the point of a toaster oven is that it's one of those "student
and/or bachelor appliances" that appears with great regularity at
thrift stores and garage sales and such for about $10.  You wouldn't
particularly want to start with a new one...

Another source of high wattage heating elements that might work would
be those quartz lamp things usually found in laser printers and
photocopiers.  (again, not something you'd want to buy new.)  I'm not
sure whether they get hot enough (it's pretty likely, though...)

billw

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2004\07\04@083456 by Steve Nordhauser

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Before you go off re-inventing a perfectly good wheel, there is a yahoo
group dedicated to homemade SMT ovens - the E-Z_Bake group:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/E-Z_Bake/

They have tested a number of ovens, control systems, temp profiles, etc.

{Quote hidden}

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2004\07\04@213249 by Jim Tellier

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Martin Klingensmith wrote:
> You've got me interested.

FWIW, *me too*!  I happened to go into FRYS this afternoon, and by chance
wandered down
the "toaster oven" aisle (!)... I saw an el-cheapo "Maxi-Matic" 650W,
2-element job on
sale for $18 (!).. so I said, hey.. if it ain't up to snuff for SMT reflow,
I can always
use it to toast my bagels in the morning!!  Well, this little guy gets up to
300C in 7
minutes flat.  It's actually just a little slow getting from ambient to
100C, but I'm
thinking that's not going to matter too much.   I'm just going to do a
little controller
with a thermocouple, PIC and a triac; putz with the temp profile after I
settle on what
kind of solder paste I'm going to use, and just see what kind of result I
get.
This whole approach appeals a lot to me, since my eyesight isn't what it
used to be, and
the idea of hand soldering fine-pitch stuff just seems likely to cause a lot
of frustration.
So, I'm on the experimental path!   I'll post my results soon!
Jim

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2004\07\05@001641 by Matt Pobursky

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On Sun, 4 Jul 2004 18:30:53 -0700, Jim Tellier wrote:
> FWIW, *me too*!  I happened to go into FRYS this afternoon, and by
> chance wandered down the "toaster oven" aisle (!)... I saw an el-
> cheapo "Maxi-Matic" 650W, 2-element job on sale for $18 (!).. so I
> said, hey.. if it ain't up to snuff for SMT reflow, I can always use
> it to toast my bagels in the morning!!

***** PLEASE ***** Don't EVER use your toaster oven for food after it's
been used to solder SMT assemblies. There are very bad things in the
solder paste mixture you don't want to ingest and once they have been
vaporized inside the oven you can't get rid of them!!!

{Quote hidden}

You might want to visit the Yahoo E-Z_Bake group:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/E-Z_Bake/

There are some good tips and member experiences in the archives there.

This thread has sort of spurred me on to finish the controller for my
oven. When I'm done with it, I'll most likely post pictures and maybe
the code/hardware for it there.

Matt Pobursky
Maximum Performance Systems

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2004\07\05@005901 by William Chops Westfield

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On Jul 4, 2004, at 9:17 PM, Matt Pobursky wrote:
>
> ***** PLEASE ***** Don't EVER use your toaster oven for food after it's
> been used to solder SMT assemblies. There are very bad things in the
> solder paste mixture you don't want to ingest and once they have been
> vaporized inside the oven you can't get rid of them!!!

Ok, what?  The lead doesn't vaporize.  Not at all, at the temperatures
we're talking about for correct reflow; it's just barely MELTED, and
that only because of the alloying with the tin.

The rosin or similar compounds shows up in assorted herbs and liquers;
If there's enough in food to hurt you, you'll taste it...

It's not a good idea to reuse the oven for food, but I doubt that it's
likely to cause serious problems, either.

BillW

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2004\07\05@012427 by Alexandre Guimaraes

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Hi,

> Ok, what?  The lead doesn't vaporize.  Not at all, at the temperatures
> we're talking about for correct reflow; it's just barely MELTED, and
> that only because of the alloying with the tin.

   I can agree with that but I would never try myself ;-)

> The rosin or similar compounds shows up in assorted herbs and liquers;
> If there's enough in food to hurt you, you'll taste it...

   The no clean flux on solder paste is quite "strong" and not natural
stuff at all. Not much of "herbs" and "liquers" in it. It is very different
from the resin that we see in regular solder wires. It can be quite a good
stuff to help someone build cancer or other diseases... Any residual amounts
can be quite bad for health if eaten. You should take a look at the papers
that come with the solder paste.

> It's not a good idea to reuse the oven for food, but I doubt that it's
> likely to cause serious problems, either.

   I think it would be a VERY bad idea to try it... And maybe even a worse
idea to say it is not dangerous to a list with 2000 people....

Best regards,
Alexandre Guimaraes

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2004\07\05@015851 by Robert Rolf

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And these comments from people who probably smoke??
If you have ever looked at the chemical make up of tobacco smoke,
you'd quite in a moment, addiction notwithstanding.

I find it silly to worry about infinitesimal levels of residue,
when we have smokers, air pollution, bad water and thousands
of other higher level risk factors to worry about.
One good heating would likely vaporize whatever residues might
be left.

R

Alexandre Guimaraes wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2004\07\05@033635 by Alan B. Pearce

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>> up to 260 degrees C with a heat-to-240-degrees-C time of around 5
minutes.
>> Given that Kenneth Maxon's article on SeattleRobotics.org lists 450F
>> (about
>> 235C by my calculations) as the maximum temperature used during
soldering,
>> I'd be tempted to think that it would work.
>> Someone want to buy one of these things and try it out?
>
>Add some Kaowool [fibrous high temp insulation] and it will reliably go up
>to this temperature quicker.

Yeah, I have been thinking of putting Fibreglass house insulation around the
outside of the oven chamber if there was no insulation. Figured it would
make it less dependant on outside influences when trying to work the
temperature profile.

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2004\07\05@035542 by Russell McMahon

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> > Ok, what?  The lead doesn't vaporize.  Not at all, at the temperatures
> > we're talking about for correct reflow; it's just barely MELTED, and
> > that only because of the alloying with the tin.

For interest.
Formula for vapour pressure of lead with temperature

       http://prola.aps.org/abstract/PR/v26/i6/p851_1

FWIW:

   Vapor pressure of lead, 1118° to 1235°C was found to
   vary from 5.70 mm to 19.70 mm in good agreement with
   the equation log 10p(mm)=-10372 / T-log 10T-11.35


       RM

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2004\07\05@065952 by John Ferrell

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Not for $18....

John Ferrell
http://DixieNC.US

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To: <EraseMEPICLISTspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Monday, July 05, 2004 12:17 AM
Subject: Re: [OT:] SMT soldering oven was: Death ..


{Quote hidden}

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2004\07\05@122847 by Jim Tellier

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John Ferrell wrote:
> Not for $18....

??? not *what*?

----------
Re : other replies to my OP, I found it amusing that anyone would jump to
the conclusion that I'm intending on using the oven for both reflow AND
food!   My statement was:

   "... so I said, hey.. *IF* it ain't up to snuff for SMT reflow,
   I can always use it to toast my bagels in the morning!!

And, FWIW, given both the high temp required to vaporize lead (thanks,
Russell!), as well as the relatively high volatility of flux, solvents
binders and anything else that might appear on a PCB, if one really did want
to use an oven for cooking after having done reflow in it, running the thing
at 300C for a little while with the door ajar would be enough to purge it of
damn near anything!  Same as a self-cleaning oven.  NOT that I'm planning on
dual use, or recommending that to anyone, but I personally wouldn't worry
about it.

Jim

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2004\07\05@154710 by John Ferrell

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Not eating out of the same oven I use for soldering when a fresh one is $18!

John Ferrell
http://DixieNC.US

{Original Message removed}

2004\07\06@101643 by llile

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Fiberglass house insulation will stink when it gets hot.  Been there, done
that and all.


-- Lawrence Lile
Electronic Solutions
Project Solutions Companies
http://www.projsolco.com







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>> up to 260 degrees C with a heat-to-240-degrees-C time of around 5
minutes.
>> Given that Kenneth Maxon's article on SeattleRobotics.org lists 450F
>> (about
>> 235C by my calculations) as the maximum temperature used during
soldering,
>> I'd be tempted to think that it would work.
>> Someone want to buy one of these things and try it out?
>
>Add some Kaowool [fibrous high temp insulation] and it will reliably go
up
>to this temperature quicker.

Yeah, I have been thinking of putting Fibreglass house insulation around
the
outside of the oven chamber if there was no insulation. Figured it would
make it less dependant on outside influences when trying to work the
temperature profile.

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2004\07\06@102305 by David VanHorn

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At 09:16 AM 7/6/2004 -0500, EraseMEllilespamspamspamBeGoneSALTONUSA.COM wrote:

>Fiberglass house insulation will stink when it gets hot.  Been there, done
>that and all.

Sounds like the voice of experience.

It's not hard to find an old oven laying out for "big item pickup day", and probably the insulation there, isn't going to have that problem.

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2004\07\06@104209 by Alan B. Pearce

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>Fiberglass house insulation will stink when it gets hot.
>Been there, done that and all.

OK, thanks for the warning. Guess that kills that as a scheme then. Have to
look for something else to pack it with.

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2004\07\06@153216 by Ben Hencke

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>
> ***** PLEASE ***** Don't EVER use your toaster oven for food after it's
> been used to solder SMT assemblies. There are very bad things in the
> solder paste mixture you don't want to ingest and once they have been
> vaporized inside the oven you can't get rid of them!!!

I use my soldering iron to cook hot dogs (aka franks) from the inside
out. Is that unhealthy? ;-)

But seriously, If the toaster oven is toxic after toasting boards,
what about the smoke from normal soldering? I try not to inhale it,
but it does stink up the room (even with doors and windows open). Is
it just rosin or does it have lead in it?

- Ben

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2004\07\06@162025 by Lucas Thompson

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As suggested earlier, use Kaowool or other brand of ceramic fiber
insultation, it handles pretty much like fiberglass but it's a bit more
brittle (wear gloves!). I use it for very hot things like kilns and
forges. Your local pottery supply store should have some or know where
to get it.

Make sure to coat the inside with collodial silica (rigidizer) so you
don't get the particulates all over the place. It's not good for your
lungs and probably wouldn't be good for the boards either. Coating the
inside with ITC-100 after that would probably be $$$ overkill.


{Original Message removed}

2004\07\06@170916 by llile

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The whole lead-in-solder-smoke thing was researched on this list about a
year ago.  Basically, lead is not present in solder smoke in sufficient
quantities to bother you.  it is the REST of the components of solder
smoke that are bad!  My policy is to have a smoke absorber handy at all
times when soldering, and make efforts to use it.  The chief risk is
occupational asthma, the rosin smoke apparently does some kind of lung
damage and leaves you wheezing after chronic exposure.

You can buy a nice fan from Hakko, or you can hack one together out of an
old muffin fan.  A filter is good, to pick up the particles, but gettting
the stuff away from your face is the big issue.

You can get lead exposure from the following:  Eating around your
soldering bench, not washing your hands after handling solder, sticking
your soldering iron in your coffee cup (There was a story about a guy who
would reheat his coffee this way... I have done it by accident a few
times)  or flicking solder off your soldering iron into your coffee cup.
The bad habit of keeping coffee cups around my electronics bench is
mitigated by the fact that a smooth french roast helps concentration.

-- Lawrence Lile
Electronic Solutions
Project Solutions Companies
http://www.projsolco.com







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>
> ***** PLEASE ***** Don't EVER use your toaster oven for food after it's
> been used to solder SMT assemblies. There are very bad things in the
> solder paste mixture you don't want to ingest and once they have been
> vaporized inside the oven you can't get rid of them!!!

I use my soldering iron to cook hot dogs (aka franks) from the inside
out. Is that unhealthy? ;-)

But seriously, If the toaster oven is toxic after toasting boards,
what about the smoke from normal soldering? I try not to inhale it,
but it does stink up the room (even with doors and windows open). Is
it just rosin or does it have lead in it?

- Ben

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2004\07\06@170922 by Martin Klingensmith

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David VanHorn wrote:
> It's not hard to find an old oven laying out for "big item pickup day", and probably the insulation there, isn't going to have that problem.
>

Or use cast pieces of perlite mixed 50/50 with furnace cement "been
there done that."

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2004\07\29@054942 by hilip Stortz

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actually, some of the lead does vaporize (everything actually evaporates
even at room temperature, it's just very, very slow for most things and
usually minor, however, there is actually an measurable amount of
molybdenum in the air for instance, and this was a problem for  a plant
researcher looking at trace nutrients).  lead has a relatively high
vapor pressure even at room temperature.  in vacuum chambers if you use
lead solder a thin film of lead winds up everywhere.  given that lead
accumulates, this is a problem.  it's also why you should really have
good ventilation or a fan/filter going when you solder.  there are also
a wide variety of vapors from the board and components, and most fluxes
are certainly not food grade and likely have various additives in them.
honest, it's not smart and lead is part of the problem.  another example
is that snow, at very low temperatures will sublimate in a high wind and
add water vapor to the air, even though it bellow freezing and far
bellow boiling the vapor pressure is not zero.

William Chops Westfield wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2004\07\29@055810 by hilip Stortz

picon face
aremco.com (i think that's right) sells a variety of high temp
insulation, including structural insulation board.  finding good high
temp insulation isn't hard.  again, google is your' friend and better
than guessing and wasting time and money.

and yes, normal soldering fumes should be vented or filtered!  yeah,
yeah, some people smoke, but it's best to reduce your exposures all
around.  just because someone has one big exposure doesn't mean the
little don't count or that they don't add up by themselves.  it's called
risk reduction, and it's always a balance, but it's just stupid to take
exposures that are easy to avoid.


Lucas Thompson wrote:
{Quote hidden}

--------

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2004\07\29@060106 by hilip Stortz

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and if you hack together your' own, use and activated charcoal/carbon
filter to absorb the gaseous organic components.  this can be found for
use in furnace filters and air purifiers, grainger.com list several
types, some available in reasonably sized packages.

@spam@llile@spam@spamspam_OUTSALTONUSA.COM wrote:
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2004\07\29@083906 by Lawrence Lile

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> and yes, normal soldering fumes should be vented or filtered!  yeah,
> yeah, some people smoke, but it's best to reduce your exposures all
> around.  just because someone has one big exposure doesn't mean the
> little don't count or that they don't add up by themselves.  it's
called
> risk reduction, and it's always a balance, but it's just stupid to
take
> exposures that are easy to avoid.

As a lifelong asthma sufferer, I can tell you that you don't want any
part of it.  Solder smoke definitely causes occupational asthma, and can
eventually lead to emphysema (sp?) so better to stay away from long
exposure.  I finally junked the homemade solder smoke fan and bought a
Hakko fan with a carbon filter.  It mounts on a 1/2" diameter pole right
above and behind my panavise, where most of the soldering is done.  The
pole is scavenged from some lab glassware supports that were extra.
Both are mounted to a heavy board with rubber feet so they won't slide
around the bench.  The board is some kind of dense plastic, and weighs
about 5Kg.  I've quite mounting my panavises to the bench, because there
is no flexibility.
-- Lawrence Lile, P.E.
Electrical and Electronic Solutions
Project Solutions Companies
http://www.projsolco.com
573-443-7100 ext 221

> {Original Message removed}

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