Post by thread:[OT:] RadioShack Canada S***s

It is quite possible to do electronics as a hobby anywhere. Rule 1: Never order less than 200 resistors, or less than 10 more of anything that you need. Rule 2: Get good at desoldering stuff. Rob a few caps from old VCRs Rule 3. Keep a big, well organized junk box with lots of littlle labeled drawers. Avoid the H*** Box syndrome. "Aw H*** I will just throw it all in a box. Rule 4: Jameco is your friend. Mouser and Digikey are nearly your friends. Rule 5. Grab bags, assortments, and so on are good. Rule 6: Round out those onesies orders to $25 by adding a few NIMH batteries each time. You know you will need them. Rule 7: Yes, radio shark stinks. I still give them a lot of business because there is no alternative locally. They *DID* have a USB:RS232 adapter in stock when Circuit City didn't. They *DO* have many types of obsolate cables and such, and the store near me still stocks some components. All of the shops here that catered to real hobbyist went out of business. Radio Shark got the message and sold stuff that makes them a profit. I don't blame them. -- Lawrence Lile Robert Rolf <spam_OUTRobert.RolfTakeThisOuTUALBERTA.CA> Sent by: pic microcontroller discussion list <.....PICLISTKILLspam@spam@MITVMA.MIT.EDU> 06/15/2004 04:51 PM Please respond to pic microcontroller discussion list To: PICLISTKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU cc: Subject: Re: [OT:] RadioShack Canada Sucks Jason S wrote: > > What if you only need a few dollars or even a few cents worth of parts? > You're still looking at at least $6 in shipping costs. Yep. > > I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion that without a local retail parts > store, it's simply impossible to do electronics work as a hobby. Yep. Unfortunately I got used to driving by Active on my way to work to pick up whatever I needed that day. With the change in ownership there is so little useful inventory that I now just order my stuff from Digikey, pay the shipping and be done with it (my time is worth quite a lot, unlike a hobbyist). It's still on my desk the next day. Part of the problem with doing 'hobby' design is that you often don't always know what you need until AFTER you've sent in your order. So you either have to plan better, accounting for all likely needs, or live with the minimum purchase and shipping costs. I always order a few extra of whatever I purchase so that my 'junk' draw is pretty well stocked, so I need to order much less often now. One always needs IC sockets, capacitors, connectors, etc. etc. so ordering 'just enough' has its shortcoming, particularly if ordering 10 of something makes the extra 2 pieces 'free' because of a price break. The big killer for hobbyists, as I see it, is the MOQ (minimum order quantity) that most distributors now have. If I only need 25 molex connectors, why the bleep do I have to place a factory order for 500? For SMT IC's it's even crazier. 500pc on some things where you need only 30 (so sampling won't get you what you need). It is stupid that one of my criteria for designing in a part must now include whether I can get it in small production quantities (10's or 100s). Robert -- http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic: [PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads -- http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic: [PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads

----- Original Message ----- From: <.....llileKILLspam.....SALTONUSA.COM> To: <EraseMEPICLISTspam_OUTTakeThisOuTMITVMA.MIT.EDU> Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2004 3:15 PM Subject: Re: [OT:] RadioShack Canada S***s > Rule 1: Never order less than 200 resistors, or less than 10 more of > anything that you need. 200 of the same value? There are very few values I use 200 of in 10 years. If you're getting an assortment, how do you pick which values you need for a project you won't think of for 6 months. If you're missing a single one, that's another order so you've lost any advantage of ordering 200 in advance, and you still have the disadvantages. Same goes for ordering 10 or more; it means the price for your project is multiplied by 10 *and* you have to store all the junk, probably for years. This is probably reasonable for business, but not for the hobbiest. > Rule 2: Get good at desoldering stuff. Rob a few caps from old VCRs What good is that? Caps only cost pennies, there's a chance the recovered part won't work, leading to hours of frustration, you now have a huge time investment in your junk box, you still have storage issues, and where do you get the VCRs (even used and junked with a much higher chance of faulty parts) for less than the price of the handful of parts that might be salvagable from modern equipment? Some of the repair people I know swear by the technique that the first thing you do is replace all the caps because they're the first thing to go. You want to salvage and reuse them? Even if you do get anything out of it; you'll probably end up storing most of the parts for the rest of your life never finding a project that calls for them. Then you kids will throw them out because they're worthless. > Rule 3. Keep a big, well organized junk box with lots of littlle labeled > drawers. Avoid the H*** Box syndrome. "Aw H*** I will just throw it all > in a box. Again, much more time and space is needed than it's worth. The local retail store has thousands of little drawers full of parts. Maintaining such an inventory at home just isn't worth it for a hobbiest. I had set of little drawers that was stuffed with carefully sorted parts, many of which are over 20 years old, and except for the resistors, I don't think I'd used anything in there for 10 years. I junked them in the move. What am I going to do with 20 year old red LEDs that are very dim by modern standards? in metal housings that are covered in corrosion and I don't have specs for? Assorted power transistors salvaged from old circuit boards decades ago? Now I do have a few H*** boxes. I try to keep an inventory for each one up to date on the computer. It does take 10 times longer to find anything, but compared to all the time wasted sorting parts I'd never use and labelling drawers, I'm way ahead this way. > Rule 4: Jameco is your friend. Mouser and Digikey are nearly your > friends. Yes, your friend at a $6 surcharge for shipping every time you need a part. > Rule 5. Grab bags, assortments, and so on are good. They're good if you love diagnosing problems. Radio Shack was always the worst for that, but grab bag assortments is where companies put questionaly or faulty parts. The best was my grab bag of 100 "untested" 7-segment LED displays. Every one had an "N" hand printed on it with a sharpie, and every one had at least one segment that wouldn't light. $10 for 100 7-segment displays sounds like a bargain, but 5 hours of my free time testing 100 displays and having nothing to show for it but a pile of garbage sure isn't. > Rule 6: Round out those onesies orders to $25 by adding a few NIMH > batteries each time. You know you will need them. This is totally illogical. You're still only placing the order for a few dollars worth of parts, so effectively you're only paying the shipping for that. Stocking extra batteries you don't need doesn't mean you've gotten a better deal on shipping. You can wait until you're ordering a few parts and need the batteries, and then order all you need for the same flat shipping. Why be out the money and have to store the batteries before you need them if in the end you've spent the same amount of money? > Rule 7: Yes, radio shark stinks. I still give them a lot of business > because there is no alternative locally. They *DID* have a USB:RS232 > adapter in stock when Circuit City didn't. They *DO* have many types of > obsolate cables and such, and the store near me still stocks some > components. All of the shops here that catered to real hobbyist went out > of business. Radio Shark got the message and sold stuff that makes them a > profit. I don't blame them. They are a ghost of their former self. I just bought an enclosure from them with an integrated membrane keypad covering the top. It's shaped like a remote control and inside, it has a 9V battery compartment and space for the project board. The front panel is removable and they included a transparent red replacement piece (for using IR LEDs inside). It seems like it will be very useful for a lot of possible projects. It's the sort of unique and very hobbiest oriented part they used to be famous for. It even came with the 9V battery snap. When they specialzied in products like this, it's easy to see how they were truly great. They only had one left and the package was covered in dust. It's probably been sitting there for 10 years, and I doubt they will be restocking it. I also got the last small piece of perf board with an IC friendly pad layout. I can only hope they'll restock that item; I must have bought dozens of them over the years. Jason -- http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic: [PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads

Jason S wrote: > > > Rule 1: Never order less than 200 resistors, or less than 10 more of > > anything that you need. > > 200 of the same value? There are very few values I use 200 of in 10 years. > If you're getting an assortment, how do you pick which values you need for a > project you won't think of for 6 months. If you're missing a single one, > that's another order so you've lost any advantage of ordering 200 in > advance, and you still have the disadvantages. The price of 200 resistors is US$6.00. If I have to run to town and buy a blister pack of five resistors for 35 cents, I've just wasted $$$$ for them plus the time to drive to town to get them, and the gas it took. Total? $12 for 5 resistors. > > > Same goes for ordering 10 or more; it means the price for your project is > multiplied by 10 *and* you have to store all the junk, probably for years. > This is probably reasonable for business, but not for the hobbiest. It depends on how much of a "hobbiest" you are. As a hobbiest, I can stuff over 50 resistors in a simple single project. {Quote hidden}> > > > Rule 2: Get good at desoldering stuff. Rob a few caps from old VCRs > > What good is that? Caps only cost pennies, there's a chance the recovered > part won't work, leading to hours of frustration, you now have a huge time > investment in your junk box, you still have storage issues, and where do you > get the VCRs (even used and junked with a much higher chance of faulty > parts) for less than the price of the handful of parts that might be > salvagable from modern equipment? > VCR's and other switching supplies have low ESR caps and other good stuff. I have robbed a few chassis in my time and it has been very beneficial. Caps are easy to test. Takes only about 10 seconds to recover a dollar cap. > > Some of the repair people I know swear by the technique that the first thing > you do is replace all the caps because they're the first thing to go. You > want to salvage and reuse them? > > Even if you do get anything out of it; you'll probably end up storing most > of the parts for the rest of your life never finding a project that calls > for them. Again, I have a shop full of parts. Some I may use and some I may never. I have friends and neighbors come over all the time asking to fix something of theirs. They pay me well. Well enough for me to look at a lot of parts just sit there. {Quote hidden}> Then you kids will throw them out because they're worthless. > > > Rule 3. Keep a big, well organized junk box with lots of littlle labeled > > drawers. Avoid the H*** Box syndrome. "Aw H*** I will just throw it all > > in a box. > > Again, much more time and space is needed than it's worth. The local retail > store has thousands of little drawers full of parts. Maintaining such an > inventory at home just isn't worth it for a hobbiest. > My "hobbiest" shop is a 24X36 foot garage. Everyone's impressed when I can repair almost anything. > > I had set of little drawers that was stuffed with carefully sorted parts, > many of which are over 20 years old, and except for the resistors, I don't > think I'd used anything in there for 10 years. I junked them in the move. > What am I going to do with 20 year old red LEDs that are very dim by modern > standards? in metal housings that are covered in corrosion and I don't have > specs for? Assorted power transistors salvaged from old circuit boards > decades ago? > Things do age if stored and not used. Cull out what you will never use and hamfest them. Turn it into money. {Quote hidden}> > Now I do have a few H*** boxes. I try to keep an inventory for each one up > to date on the computer. It does take 10 times longer to find anything, but > compared to all the time wasted sorting parts I'd never use and labelling > drawers, I'm way ahead this way. > > > Rule 4: Jameco is your friend. Mouser and Digikey are nearly your > > friends. > > Yes, your friend at a $6 surcharge for shipping every time you need a part. > I never buy less than $200 from Digikey at a time. I have a wantlist and when it gets big enough and component is needed soon, the order goes in. {Quote hidden}> > > Rule 5. Grab bags, assortments, and so on are good. > > They're good if you love diagnosing problems. Radio Shack was always the > worst for that, but grab bag assortments is where companies put questionaly > or faulty parts. The best was my grab bag of 100 "untested" 7-segment LED > displays. Every one had an "N" hand printed on it with a sharpie, and every > one had at least one segment that wouldn't light. $10 for 100 7-segment > displays sounds like a bargain, but 5 hours of my free time testing 100 > displays and having nothing to show for it but a pile of garbage sure isn't. > > > Rule 6: Round out those onesies orders to $25 by adding a few NIMH > > batteries each time. You know you will need them. > > This is totally illogical. You're still only placing the order for a few > dollars worth of parts, so effectively you're only paying the shipping for > that. Stocking extra batteries you don't need doesn't mean you've gotten a > better deal on shipping. You can wait until you're ordering a few parts and > need the batteries, and then order all you need for the same flat shipping. > Why be out the money and have to store the batteries before you need them if > in the end you've spent the same amount of money? > I have numerous portable devices. All have been upgraded to NiMH. I can always use more. {Quote hidden}> > > Rule 7: Yes, radio shark stinks. I still give them a lot of business > > because there is no alternative locally. They *DID* have a USB:RS232 > > adapter in stock when Circuit City didn't. They *DO* have many types of > > obsolate cables and such, and the store near me still stocks some > > components. All of the shops here that catered to real hobbyist went out > > of business. Radio Shark got the message and sold stuff that makes them a > > profit. I don't blame them. > > They are a ghost of their former self. I just bought an enclosure from them > with an integrated membrane keypad covering the top. It's shaped like a > remote control and inside, it has a 9V battery compartment and space for the > project board. The front panel is removable and they included a transparent > red replacement piece (for using IR LEDs inside). It seems like it will be > very useful for a lot of possible projects. It's the sort of unique and > very hobbiest oriented part they used to be famous for. It even came with > the 9V battery snap. When they specialzied in products like this, it's easy > to see how they were truly great. They only had one left and the package > was covered in dust. It's probably been sitting there for 10 years, and I > doubt they will be restocking it. I also got the last small piece of perf > board with an IC friendly pad layout. I can only hope they'll restock that > item; I must have bought dozens of them over the years. > > Jason > It's been so long since I've been to RadioSlack, the last time I drove by, it had moved across town.....4 years ago. Rick -- http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic: [PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads

"to invent you need a good imagination and a pile of junk", thomas edison. the same goes for being an electronics hobbyist, junk electronics are great part sources, though usually not for resistors and small capacitors, building up a good assortment is best for that. as far as resistor values, 1k-10k for most mostly digital stuff, 1k-100k for most analog stuff, and a few higher and lower. those ranges will cover most of your needs. capacitors, always figure a few K uF, or more properly a few millifarads for power supplies, o.1 uF or 100 nanofarads and .o1 or 10 nanofarads for bypass caps, and possibly 1+uF tantalums for bypass in some analog circuits. assortments are good, buying a few extra of any value you use is a good idea. for resistor values you find yourself using a lot, buying a hundred+ at a time is a good idea. 5% resistors for most analog and digital, 1% for a few analog needs. though mouser electronics just started carrying 0.1% resistors i believe, for when it really matters or you need to match resistors closely. believe me, design a few circuits and you'll get a good idea what values and value ranges you are likely to need/want. building up a good assortment is initially expensive, but it you are playing with electronics or doing serious work you can build up your collection over time. buying pre made assortments from several sources with different contents also isn't a bad idea initially. definitely become familiar with the larger surplus places, many ham radio sites have links to their favorites, that's a good place to start. Jason S wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <llilespam_OUTSALTONUSA.COM> > To: <@spam@PICLISTKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU> > Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2004 3:15 PM > Subject: Re: [OT:] RadioShack Canada S***s > > > Rule 1: Never order less than 200 resistors, or less than 10 more of > > anything that you need. --------- -- http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic: [PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads

----- Original Message ----- From: "rixy04" <KILLspamrixy04KILLspamVVALLEY.COM> To: <RemoveMEPICLISTTakeThisOuTMITVMA.MIT.EDU> Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2004 4:37 PM Subject: Re: [OT:] RadioShack Canada S***s > The price of 200 resistors is US$6.00. If I have to run to town and buy a > blister pack of five resistors for 35 cents, I've just wasted $$$$ for them plus > the time to drive to town to get them, and the gas it took. Total? $12 for 5 > resistors. How do you get to $12 for 5 resistors? As a hobbiest, you go to the store to get them when you're near there and you don't count your time to go into the store to buy them; this is a hobby. If I value my hobby time at $30/hour then the RGB LED fader I just built is worth at least $100; so I shouldn't have wasted the time building it when I can buy a fading LED for $1. > > Same goes for ordering 10 or more; it means the price for your project is > > multiplied by 10 *and* you have to store all the junk, probably for years. > > This is probably reasonable for business, but not for the hobbiest. > It depends on how much of a "hobbiest" you are. As a hobbiest, I can stuff over > 50 resistors in a simple single project. So 50 resistors at $12 for 5, that means at the local store you just spent $120 on those 50 resistors? The 10 or more was referring to any part. How many membrane keypads do you use in a year, or an LCD of a specific configuration, or a specific sized enclosure. Do you really want to pay for and store 10 of each of these when your project only calls for 1? Even with 50 resistors on the project, is it reasonable to buy 200 of each value included in the project? Most will probably be in series with LEDs or as pull-up/pull down resistors, so they'll mostly be one of 2 values. What about the ones you only use one of and probably won't use in your next project? $6 for 200 is 3 cents each, $0.35 for 5 is 7 cents each. I'd rather be able to run into the local store and pay the 35 cents as I need certain values. Actually my local store has the resistors loose in those little drawers for 5 cents each; and yes, I've gone in and bought a single resistor as my entire purchase for the visit. > VCR's and other switching supplies have low ESR caps and other good stuff. I > have robbed a few chassis in my time and it has been very beneficial. Caps are > easy to test. Takes only about 10 seconds to recover a dollar cap. You can desolder a cap, test it, and sort it away into your carefully labeled storage drawers in 10 seconds. Wow, and I thought I was good with a soldering iron. It's only worth a dollar if you use it. I'd stripped a quite few chassis too. It's a huge waste of time. What percentage of parts your stripped over the years do you think you've used and what percentage have you throw out or you still have cluttering up your work space? I once removed 32 18-pin DRAM chips that were directly soldered to a couple of junk memory cards to use in my laser printer. It's worth it *if* you have an immediate use for the part; and an 18-pin DIP is quite a bit more work to desolder than a cap. If you're going to store the part for an unknown amount of time, it's not worth it. Throw away the chassis and spend $1 to buy the part a few years later if you do happen to need it. > Again, I have a shop full of parts. Some I may use and some I may never. I have > friends and neighbors come over all the time asking to fix something of theirs. > They pay me well. Well enough for me to look at a lot of parts just sit there. Most you will never use. For the few you need, you get paid well enough to buy it from a supplier, and your friends will wait a few extra days. > My "hobbiest" shop is a 24X36 foot garage. Everyone's impressed when I can > repair almost anything. My "hobbiest" shop is the dining room table and a 2x4' storage cupboard. Before my big move, I probably had about the same amount of space as you but in the basement, and the space was filled with clutter; old laser printer assemblies and other pieces of equipment in various states of disassembly, 4 oscilliscopes, from an old heathkit to a fairly modern DSO, and a lot of other equipment and space taken over by spare parts. I am much better off this way, even if it does cost more overall to complete a project. The only gotcha is that I never have a complete parts list until I'm finished the project. $6 for shipping added to the total cost of parts in very reasonable, $6 x 5 for the 5 items I didn't know I needed when I placed the last order kills the value of the project. I used to fix things for friends and family as well as myself. It isn't worth it anymore. If it takes me 4 hours to fix a VCR that can be replaced for $60, why bother? My time is worth more than $15/hour. Consumer electronics is so cheap in price and quality these days it's basically disposable. > I never buy less than $200 from Digikey at a time. I have a wantlist and when it > gets big enough and component is needed soon, the order goes in. I try to do that with a threshold at around $50. What happens thoush is I get my $50 order in, start working on the project and then realize I'm missing something that's a few dollars. Then do I wait until I'm ready to start my next project and add the parts missing from the previous one or just take the hit and waste the shipping costs? If I choose the former, I will never finish anything, so it has to be the latter, but there's always something I'm missing. To get back to the original thread, I used to hate radio shack for charging $1 for 20 cents worth of parts, but that was when I was in Toronto where there are electronics strores everywhere. Now that I don't have access to the real stores, I think that for what you can get at radioshack, it is worth 5 times the price for small parts when you only need a few things. > I have numerous portable devices. All have been upgraded to NiMH. I can always > use more. Then buy more when you need them; don't just round out orders with them > It's been so long since I've been to RadioSlack, the last time I drove by, it > had moved across town.....4 years ago. > Rick I stopped going to Radio Shack about 6 years ago when the US stores wouldn't sell me a DirecTv satellite dish. I've only recently starting going back and that's because there's nowhere else to go here. Jason -- http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic: [PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads

Jason S wrote: > 200 of the same value? There are very few values I use 200 of in 10 years. > If you're getting an assortment, how do you pick which values you need for a > project you won't think of for 6 months. If you're missing a single one, > that's another order so you've lost any advantage of ordering 200 in > advance, and you still have the disadvantages. > I've used probably 100 1k resistors in the past 2 years. That equates to big bucks for radioshack resistors. > Same goes for ordering 10 or more; it means the price for your project is > multiplied by 10 *and* you have to store all the junk, probably for years. > This is probably reasonable for business, but not for the hobbiest. > Only if you're using some odd-ball part. Most of us use things like PICs, opamps, transistors, capacitors, resistors, diodes, LEDs. Many circuits will tolerate different components. I have some IRF1405s that could be used in place of a IRF540 more expensive, but I have them anyway. > What good is that? Caps only cost pennies, there's a chance the recovered > part won't work, leading to hours of frustration, you now have a huge time > investment in your junk box, you still have storage issues, and where do you > get the VCRs (even used and junked with a much higher chance of faulty > parts) for less than the price of the handful of parts that might be > salvagable from modern equipment? I have yet to desolder a capacitor that doesn't work, as long as it's not physically damaged. Most consumer components get scrapped well within capacitor liftime. I haven't scrapped any radios from 1940 lately... > > Some of the repair people I know swear by the technique that the first thing > you do is replace all the caps because they're the first thing to go. You > want to salvage and reuse them? You know repair people that still fix consumer electronics? It must not be anything made in the past 8-10 years. > > Even if you do get anything out of it; you'll probably end up storing most > of the parts for the rest of your life never finding a project that calls > for them. Then you kids will throw them out because they're worthless. I've saved a lot of money and allowed myself the ability to build things without spending a ton of money. Most of the time I use scrapped capacitors and transistors. > Again, much more time and space is needed than it's worth. The local retail > store has thousands of little drawers full of parts. Maintaining such an > inventory at home just isn't worth it for a hobbiest. Where would you suggest I go to get stuff I want sooner rather than later. And where can I get it for the cost of heating up my soldering iron? I'm a student and a hobbiest. > > I had set of little drawers that was stuffed with carefully sorted parts, > many of which are over 20 years old, and except for the resistors, I don't > think I'd used anything in there for 10 years. I junked them in the move. > What am I going to do with 20 year old red LEDs that are very dim by modern > standards? in metal housings that are covered in corrosion and I don't have > specs for? Assorted power transistors salvaged from old circuit boards > decades ago? If all else, sell it on Bay. Maybe you don't do as much experimenting as I do, or you have more money than I do. Either way, I'm not you. > I also got the last small piece of perf > board with an IC friendly pad layout. I can only hope they'll restock that > item; I must have bought dozens of them over the years. > > Jason I've bought many little boards from them myself. Too bad they're of terrible quality, but what do I expect from a store trying to sell cheap parts at low quantity and make a profit. -- -- Martin Klingensmith http://infoarchive.net/ http://nnytech.net/ -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics

----- Original Message ----- From: "William Chops Westfield" <spamBeGonewestfwspamBeGoneMAC.COM> To: <TakeThisOuTPICLISTEraseMEspam_OUTMITVMA.MIT.EDU> Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2004 9:35 PM Subject: Re: [OT:] RadioShack Canada S***s > It depends on how seriously you're going to pursue your hobby. Stuff > from surplus stores GOES AWAY and you might never be able to get it > again. No, you don't need 10 of everything. But it's pretty silly to > order ONLY one of a $2 part, too. It does often make sense to get more than you need, but the post I was replying to said 10 times as much of everything. So yes, when I do order that $1.25 cable from All Electronics, I will be ordering a few (but not 10), and it would be stupid to order more than 1 of the $5 phone keypads; I'm still looking for a cheaper online source; Active Annex in Toronto sells them (or did a few years ago) for 35 cents. You really need to think about what you're buying and decide how many you expect to use over the next year. > Save your money for however long it takes and order $100 worth of parts > at a time. I don't find it very difficult to get most orders up to > $100... :-) My whole point here is that simply doesn't work for the hobbiest. If you're building someone else's design there's no problem, but if you're doing your own design, you always forget something or something doesn't work out and needs to be changed. I will need some sort of buzzer for my timer project. Do I order 1 of each that All Electrtonics carries and hope one has a sound I like? I can just buy a Piezo and see if a square wave output from the pic directly driving the piezo will sound good. If it does, that's probably something I should buy 10 of, but I just don't know. Part of being a hobbiest is that I can experiment but a lack of easy access to parts with no shipping cost really puts a damper on things. > (OTOH, learn when it's ok to substitute resistor values. For the > average digital experimentor, you can probably get away with 100, 1000, > 1k, 10k, and 100k resistors. Period.) Good start, but you'll need several more values in the 100-300 ohm range to limit current to LEDs. Assuming 5V supply and 1.7V dropped across the LED, that's 33mA at 100 ohms or 3.3mA at 1k. Neither is suitable. If you're working on your project and decide you want to put a couple of LEDs in series you'll need another lower value. You might end up using a different voltage, especially since the PIC can work at lower voltages. See how easy it is to miss out on a part while ordering? Once you figure out which values you would have forgotten by just getting the powers of 10, you can place another order right away and eat the $6 shipping cost or put your project on hold until you come up with another $100 order. Neither option is very appealing for a hobbiest. Jason -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics

In message <RemoveMEOF91AC37EA.9316996B-ON86256EB4.007958E4-86256EB4.007A404ATakeThisOuTsaltonusa.com>> llileEraseME.....SALTONUSA.COM wrote: > It is quite possible to do electronics as a hobby anywhere. Indeed it is - I've held a subscription to EPE since 1997, a subscription to Elektor since 2002 and I've been building stuff out of the remains of dead VCRs and suchlike for a good six years. > Rule 1: Never order less than 200 resistors, or less than 10 more of > anything that you need. I apply the same rule, except my MOQ for resistors is 50. For electrolytics it's 25. > Rule 2: Get good at desoldering stuff. Rob a few caps from old VCRs Desolder wick is good for desoldering SMD stuff and some through hole stuff. If you have trouble getting the solder out of the holes, resolder the joint, then use a soldersucker to remove the solder. I've got an Antex Pro-Desold soldersucker and I tend to use the Chemtronics Soder-Wick soldering wick, both of which work fine. For soldering, I've got a 50W Antex temperature-controlled soldering station - again, fairly well built and much easier to use than my old mains-powered 25W soldering iron. I usually keep the temperature at around 340 degrees C for soldering, 365 for desoldering. > Rule 3. Keep a big, well organized junk box with lots of littlle labeled > drawers. Avoid the H*** Box syndrome. "Aw H*** I will just throw it all > in a box. Oops. Methinks it's time to buy some proper storage boxes... > Rule 4: Jameco is your friend. Mouser and Digikey are nearly your > friends. If you're in the UK, Farnell InOne (http://www.farnell.com), CPC (http://www.cpc.co.uk), RS [to some extent], Mainline Surplus Sales and WCN Supplies are your friends. WCN and Mainline specialise in surplus parts, whereas the other three sell new components. RS are good for some of the "oddball" stuff but their prices are a little high. CPC seem to specialise in replacement parts for VCRs and other consumer electronics devices. Farnell just sell new components (and significantly cheaper than most other UK suppliers, too). If you want PICs, Crownhill Associates sell PICs at well below everyone else's prices. > Rule 5. Grab bags, assortments, and so on are good. See WCN and Mainline Surplus aboce > Rule 6: Round out those onesies orders to $25 by adding a few NIMH > batteries each time. You know you will need them. I usually add resistors and electrolytics. Philpem's Rule 1a: ALWAYS buy metal film resistors at 1% tolerance. Sure, they're more expensive, but they have better temperature stability and you never know when you might specifically need the close-tolerance values (e.g. for amplifiers, oscillators or Vregs) > Rule 7: Yes, radio shark stinks. I still give them a lot of business > because there is no alternative locally. Replace "Radioshack" with "Maplin" and you've got the UK version. > They *DID* have a USB:RS232 > adapter in stock when Circuit City didn't. Maplin... USB:RS232... ROTFLMAO! GB £49 for a USB-to-RS232 converter. I think that works out at, what, US $85? Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, EraseMEphilpemdsl.pipex.com | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... How come all the buttons keep flying off my shirt? -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics

Philip, On Wed, 16 Jun 2004 10:21:14 +0100, Philip Pemberton wrote: > > Rule 7: Yes, radio shark stinks. I still give them a lot of business > > because there is no alternative locally. > Replace "Radioshack" with "Maplin" and you've got the UK version. I have to disagree here - Maplin still sell components, and although the shops' stocks aren't what they were, you can get everything next-day mailorder if necessary. And they will sell individual resistors (1 penny each for 1/4W metal film 5%), and "starter packs" of 10 of each of the E12 or E24 series, whereas RadioShaft in the US only sell packs of 5 of a value at about $1! Agreed they do charge like a raging bull for some things, but they also have some good special offers (a 120mm magnifyer with ring-fluorescent on an "anglepoise" arm for £20 - I'll be getting one later today! :-) They aren't the supplier they used to be for electronics hobbyists, but then the hobby has declined. Where there used to be half a dozen monthly electronics magazines, there are really only two now (and one of those comes from the Netherlands) so I can understand their diversifying into consumer electronic toys, radios, audio and so on, but at least they're still there and their nearest shop is a 10-minute drive from me! However, see my other message "Credit where it's due"... Cheers, Howard Winter St.Albans, England -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics

> My whole point here is that simply doesn't work for the hobbiest. Believe me, there are many people form whom it works, and under circumstances much worse than in Canada, where you always can count on the good infrastructure from the big neighbor. I guess it boils down to the question whether it works for you. It doesn't seem to, from what you're saying. I see it that way: either you want to do it, then try to work with the advice of people who are doing it and are having fun with it, or you don't -- then let it be. Since you're talking about doing it as a hobby, it's as simple as that. > If you're building someone else's design there's no problem, but if > you're doing your own design, you always forget something or something > doesn't work out and needs to be changed. I'm not sure you did designs for somebody else. It's not easier to think of everything when you're designing for others; it's just as difficult to think of everything as when you're designing for yourself. But when you are designing for yourself, nobody is after you with project timeframes and other requirements. So you don't have the right resistor value? Solder two or three together. Or you need that one special part? Wait until you have enough together for an order and do a different project in the meantime. Can't do that with a project for a customer, usually, but you can do that easily with your own projects. Gerhard -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics

> I've been looking at your Dwarf boards and I'm interested > in buying a > set, but I have some questions: > To tie things back to the original topic, can you supply > extra header > connectors to make my own daughter boards so I won't have to > order them from > somewhere else at another shipping cost? Check items RC10 (ribbon cable), CC10 (the connectors that you crimp onto the cable) and ML10 (the connector on the PCB). The ML10 connectors have standard spacing, so you can use a standard sea-of-islands type prototype board. If you use a solderless breadboard DB016 has 'wire-cups' so you can insert wires directly. Or use a DB014. > Do you have a board to connect to a matrix keypad? Yes, but I am not satisfied with it: it has its connector on the keys side, which makes front mounting impossible. I will redesign it for connectors at front or back, with different keys, and maybe some more things. But I also have a 'telephone' 3x4 keypad: just connect it! > I've never used ZPL or Jal. Will I be able to develop my > code in MPLAB > as I normally do and use the bootloader to load the code? Jal has nothing to do with it, that's just a compiler, except that I provide some Jal libraries taylored to the DB's. You can use ZPL to download code made by any compiler/assembler, as long as you don't try to be overly clever with the first few instructions (check the ZPL documentation). Wouter van Ooijen -- ------------------------------------------- Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl consultancy, development, PICmicro products -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.