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'[OT:] It seems not everyone loves Paypal'
2004\07\08@100300 by Russell McMahon

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www.paypalsucks.com/

Juts been trying to activate a transfer into Paypal from my cheque account.
Maybe I won't bother :-)

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2004\07\08@103904 by Wouter van Ooijen

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> http://www.paypalsucks.com/
>
> Juts been trying to activate a transfer into Paypal from my
> cheque account.
> Maybe I won't bother :-)

I have used PayPal now for a few years without any problem. But I do
keep my fingers crossed, and I keep the amount of money in my account
low, just in case.

As far as I can tell from the stories PP either works without a hitch,
or (in a small number of cases) it just stops working for you without a
decent way to do anything about it. I hope I never end up in the latter
category!

Wouter van Ooijen

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2004\07\08@104115 by llile

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Russel,

I use Paypal quite regularly.  Yes we have had some problems, but they are
solvable.  Yes, there will always be someone out there who will gripe and
throw rocks at whatever is available.  Some other people have said they
are fed up with it, but I feel that for a small web based business it is a
great deal.  My daughter's surplus business uses Paypal almost
exclusively, and it works quite smoothly 99% of the time.


-- Lawrence Lile
   Joy Lile
   Lile Engineering
  Nichrome wire for the hobbyist and experimenter
  Check out how to get a free roll of nichrome wire here:
 http://www.lile.biz







Russell McMahon <apptechspamKILLspamPARADISE.NET.NZ>
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07/08/2004 08:48 AM
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       Subject:        [OT:] It seems not everyone loves Paypal


http://www.paypalsucks.com/

Juts been trying to activate a transfer into Paypal from my cheque
account.
Maybe I won't bother :-)

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2004\07\08@111204 by llile

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Here is how Paypal went awry for me.

1.  I made a mistake:  Our policy was to solve complaints (esp complaints
about not getting an order or timeliness) by shipping an extra order. That
worked fine for a long while, everybody seemed happy.  However, we
substituted this for the extra cost of delivery confirmation, thinking we
were saving money.

2.  We - inevitably - had a lost order.  Was it shipped to the wrong
address?  Did the post office lose it?  Was it under the couch cushions?
Who knows.

3. The first we heard of it was a formal complaint through Paypal.  When
this happens, Paypal shuts down your account.  Nothing moves in, nothing
moves out.  Our business was essentially closed.  They guy could have just
sent us an email and we would have fixed it promptly.

4. We could not produce any delivery confirmation for the guy.  Paypal
would only release the account with delivery confirmation, or if the
customer went through some complicated process.

5. The guy got his extra order, said so in an email.  But Paypal would not
believe us or him.  They would only acknowledge the transaction was
settled through some link on thier website that only he could access.  He
was in no way motivated to do this.

6. It took a month to get this guy to go to that link and fill out their
form saying he was happy.  We had to threaten, cajole, and otherwise
manipulate to get him off his duff.    By this time we had given up and
started a completely different paypal account linked to a different bank
acount under a different name.  The business did not recover volume for
two months at least.

So the lessons learned are:

1.  Don't keep much money in your paypal account.
2.  Always get delivery confirmation or use UPS or Fedex where it is
automatic
3. Give people lots of ways to solve complaints with every communication
with them - email, phone, cell, etc. so they will contact you directly and
not use Paypal's heavyhanded complaint department.
4. Have alternatives in place in case of problems.

This is one problem out of hundreds of orders.  I have had more problems
with my local credit union than I have with Paypal.  And I am still a
customer there.  Paypal isn't perfect, but I contributed to the problem by
not making wise business choices.   I am still a Paypal customer.

Lawrence Lile
Joy Lile
Lile Engineering
Nichrome wire for the hobbyist and experimenter
http://www.lile.biz








Wouter van Ooijen <KILLspamwouterKILLspamspamVOTI.NL>
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07/08/2004 09:39 AM
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       Subject:        [OT:] It seems not everyone loves Paypal


> http://www.paypalsucks.com/
>
> Juts been trying to activate a transfer into Paypal from my
> cheque account.
> Maybe I won't bother :-)

I have used PayPal now for a few years without any problem. But I do
keep my fingers crossed, and I keep the amount of money in my account
low, just in case.

As far as I can tell from the stories PP either works without a hitch,
or (in a small number of cases) it just stops working for you without a
decent way to do anything about it. I hope I never end up in the latter
category!

Wouter van Ooijen

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Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products

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2004\07\08@111618 by hael Rigby-Jones

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>-----Original Message-----
>From: Russell McMahon [apptechEraseMEspam.....PARADISE.NET.NZ]
>Sent: 08 July 2004 14:49
>To: EraseMEPICLISTspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
>Subject: [OT:] It seems not everyone loves Paypal
>
>
>http://www.paypalsucks.com/
>
>Juts been trying to activate a transfer into Paypal from my
>cheque account. Maybe I won't bother :-)


I have been having a nightmare trying to pay Chetan for the ATTiny11's.  It
seems you simply cannot transfer funds into a UK Paypal account from your
bank.  The only way to get money into the account is to either have someone
transfer money from their Paypal account, or pay you via Paypals
credit/debit card card facility IF you have a premier account.

Regards

Mike

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2004\07\08@120715 by Alan B. Pearce

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>I have been having a nightmare trying to pay Chetan for
>the ATTiny11's.  It seems you simply cannot transfer funds
>into a UK Paypal account from your bank.  The only way to
>get money into the account is to either have someone
>transfer money from their Paypal account, or pay you via
>Paypals credit/debit card card facility IF you have a
>premier account.

Huh ?
I don't think I have a paypal premier account. My Paypal a/c was set up
before they set up a UK operation, and has always charged my UK credit card
quite happily. Just got some bits off Wouter using it.

Have never tried to get money out of a Paypal a/c yet, as I have never had
occasion to sell anything that would cause payment that way.

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2004\07\08@122002 by Randy Glenn

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I think he means that you can't pay by credit card unless the person
on the receiving end has a Premier account.

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Computer Eng. and Mgt. Year IV, McMaster University
Chair, McMaster IEEE Student Branch

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On Thu, 8 Jul 2004 17:07:55 +0100, Alan B. Pearce <RemoveMEa.b.pearceTakeThisOuTspamspamrl.ac.uk> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2004\07\08@122625 by Alan B. Pearce

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>I think he means that you can't pay by credit card
>unless the person on the receiving end has a Premier account.

But once paypal bills my CC, it does not matter what sort of a/c the
receiving person has, the money goes into their paypal a/c, and they then do
what they want with it. Paypal is acting just like another credit card, and
bills my credit card to get the necessary amount to get the money for the
transaction.

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2004\07\08@124159 by Randy Glenn

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It is my understanding that that is not the case.

This link is PayPal's stance:
http://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/gen/personal_vs_business-outside

On Thu, 8 Jul 2004 17:27:13 +0100, Alan B. Pearce <spamBeGonea.b.pearceSTOPspamspamEraseMErl.ac.uk> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2004\07\08@140035 by Win Wiencke

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<Wouter van Ooijen comments>

> As far as I can tell from the stories PP either works without a
> hitch, or (in a small number of cases) it just stops working for
> you without a decent way to do anything about it. I hope I
> never end up in the latter category!

Contracts are written as guides for when something goes wrong.  PayPal's
contract seems particularly onerous -- particularly when the credit card
companies themselves give users the right to challenge a questionable charge
and many jurisdictions have laws giving consumers the right to recind a
purchase if on inspection the goods aren't what usually and customarily
passes under the given description.

Most folks don't realize in the US you have the right to give up just about
any legal protection or right, even ones "guaranteed" by the US
Constitution.

Win Wiencke

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2004\07\08@152359 by Chetan Bhargava

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No! that is not the case. I don't have a premier account and each time
someone sends me a credit card payment, it asks me to "Accept the
payment and upgrade"

If I upgrade to a premier account I'll have to pay transaction fee on
*every* transaction. :-( and the account upgrade in a non-reversible
process.

Regards,

Chetan

> But once paypal bills my CC, it does not matter what sort of a/c the
> receiving person has, the money goes into their paypal a/c, and they then do
> what they want with it. Paypal is acting just like another credit card, and
> bills my credit card to get the necessary amount to get the money for the
> transaction.

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2004\07\09@005913 by Nate Duehr

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Randy Glenn wrote:

> I think he means that you can't pay by credit card unless the person
> on the receiving end has a Premier account.

It's able to be set that way by the recipient, or they can accept them,
last I checked.

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2004\07\09@050502 by Roger, in Bangkok

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Hi Wouter--

Why fool with bank transfer payments for anything, that's one of the
most expensive methods of currency transactions there is?!  I simply
print out my own EMO and deposit it into my Thai bank savings account.
That printout is a legal, internationally recognized banking instrument.
Check the FAQ page.  Now the first time my Thai banker saw this thing he
had no idea what to do with it ... took almost 24 hours to resolve, so
no big deal.  They also offer an ATM debit card for international, I
think ... don't know anything about it first-hand, though.

For the pay button script, I think you have to go ahead and setup an
account first, or at least sign the agreement.  But there is no need to
fund it.  The script should be on the "My Account" page ... it's been a
while since I needed that.  It may also be covered in the FAQ, as well
as the agreement.  I guess they see no need for giving access to the
button until there is an agreement, so I can't see that as a "which is
worse"  ;-)

Regards/Roger, in Bangkok


-----Original Message-----

They ask $35 for transferring money to my bank account! (Paypal $1). But
worse: there is no clear HowTo page about integrating their payment
button into my shop software. Or if it exists it is well-hidden, which
is worse.

Wouter van Ooijen

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2004\07\09@052616 by Wouter van Ooijen

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> Why fool with bank transfer payments for anything, that's one of the
> most expensive methods of currency transactions there is?!

Because for PayPal it is easy (a few keyclicks) and my total cost is $1
per transfer.

> I simply print out my own EMO and deposit it into my Thai bank savings
account.

I think that will take me 1 hour or more to get it done for the first
time - I have no bank office to go to, everything is electronic/internet
here. And I don't want to go anywhere at all: that takes *time*!

> For the pay button script, I think you have to go ahead and setup an
> account first, or at least sign the agreement.

I did create an account.

> The script should be on the "My Account" page ...
> it's been a while since I needed that.

No, not there (at least not that I could find it).

> It may also be covered in the FAQ, as well
> as the agreement.

The FAQ is very customer-oriented, not merchant-oriented.

Wouter van Ooijen

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