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'[OT:] Inside wiring - what gauge?'
2004\08\17@205922 by Matt Redmond

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To those smarter & more resourceful than I,

I'm in the middle of wiring & sheet-rocking my detached garage.  It is a
two-car, about 22'^2.  I've run 12 gauge cable from my fuse box (in the
front corner of the garage) to each of various collections of outlets spaced
therein.

My question is:  How long a run of 12 gauge solid copper cable will handle
at 20A @ 120V?  Will my 12 gauge cable carry 20A to any spot in the garage -
or do I need to put 15A breakers in?

Thanks!

-matt redmond

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2004\08\17@210758 by Denny Esterline

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I can't quote the electrical code, But I've seen 12Ga inspected and
approved for 20A service more than 100 foot from the panel.

I'd run it and not worry.

Be aware though that codes vary from one municipality to the next.

-Denny (not a lawyer, or electrician :-)


> To those smarter & more resourceful than I,
>
> I'm in the middle of wiring & sheet-rocking my detached garage.  It is a
> two-car, about 22'^2.  I've run 12 gauge cable from my fuse box (in the
> front corner of the garage) to each of various collections of outlets
spaced
> therein.
>
> My question is:  How long a run of 12 gauge solid copper cable will
handle
> at 20A @ 120V?  Will my 12 gauge cable carry 20A to any spot in the
garage -
> or do I need to put 15A breakers in?
>
> Thanks!
>
> -matt redmond
>
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2004\08\17@211341 by Robert B.

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What are you planning on running off the garage breakers?  If its just
lights, fans, a small compressor or whatever than put in the ol' 15-amp
breakers.

12-gauge wire has a tabulated resistance of .00187 ohms/ft.  So you can
probably do the calculations to figure out how much power is dissipated
(P=I^2*(length in feet*0.00187)).

For a 100-ft length I came up with a current loss of about 0.7 Amps (75
watts on a 110-volt line).  So you could easily install 20-amp breakers at
that distance.  And if you do, I'm sure you'll find no shortage of uses for
them! :)

Robert B



{Original Message removed}

2004\08\17@211551 by Robert B.

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Fortunately, since you are doing your own work on your own privately owned
property, codes need not apply (at least in the USA).  The only problem
you'll get from not running a larger cable is a little bit of power
dissipation in the line, but nowhere near enough at 20A to heat it up much.


{Original Message removed}

2004\08\17@213143 by M. Adam Davis

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Wire gauges are rated according to resistance drop.  While it's
important to keep the heat of the wire down, 12GA requires much more
than 20A to heat up appreciably.

From
www.epanorama.net/documents/wiring/wire_resistance.html
----------
Most current ratings for wires (except magnet wires) are based on
permissible voltage drop, not temperature rise.
...
You will find tables of permitted maximum current in national electrical
codes, but these are based on voltage drop (not the heating which is no
problem in the current rating those codes give).
...
Here's a quick table for normal situations. Go up a size for more than
100 foot runs, when the cable is in conduit, or ganged with other wires
in a place where they can't dissipate heat easily:

               Gauge           Amps
               14              15
               12              20
               10              30
               8               40
               6               65
----------
I hope this helps!

-Adam

Matt Redmond wrote:

{Quote hidden}

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2004\08\17@213711 by M. Adam Davis

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Codes apply.  Consider liability issues:  if you don't have a permit and
pass inspection then later homeowners (and/or insurance) can sue you for
damages.

Legally you aren't allowed to perform electrical, plumbing, structural,
HVAC, and other installations (repair is ok) without getting a permit
and generally an inspection - in most municipalities.

When I went to sell my condo last year, the realtors wanted to see the
inspection certificates for finishing the basement.

It is a very low risk, probably millions of people get away with it
every year, but it's on the books...

-Adam

Robert B. wrote:

>Fortunately, since you are doing your own work on your own privately owned
>property, codes need not apply (at least in the USA).  The only problem
>you'll get from not running a larger cable is a little bit of power
>dissipation in the line, but nowhere near enough at 20A to heat it up much.
>
>
>{Original Message removed}

2004\08\17@215747 by Bob Ammerman

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From: "Robert B." <piclistspamspam_OUTNERDULATOR.NET>
> Fortunately, since you are doing your own work on your own privately owned
> property, codes need not apply (at least in the USA).

** THIS IS GENERALLY NOT TRUE ** In many jurisdictions in the US you are
allowed to do your own work (rather than hire an electrician). However, you
nearly always have to meet code, and officially must get a permit and have
your work inspected (although many gloss over that).

> The only problem
> you'll get from not running a larger cable is a little bit of power
> dissipation in the line, but nowhere near enough at 20A to heat it up
much.

It is not really a matter of power dissipation, but rather voltage drop. 12
guage wire is rated at 20A because it will not heat up enough to be a
problem at that current. You can determine the voltage loss seen at the
outlet by computing the resistance of 200' of 12 guage wire (remember you
have both the hot and the return to deal with) and multiplying it by 20A

Bob Ammerman
RAm Systems

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2004\08\17@223244 by Dwayne Reid

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At 07:00 PM 8/17/2004, Matt Redmond wrote:

>My question is:  How long a run of 12 gauge solid copper cable will handle
>at 20A @ 120V?  Will my 12 gauge cable carry 20A to any spot in the garage -
>or do I need to put 15A breakers in?

NEC 1996 says ampacity of 12 AWG copper is 21 Amps at ambient temperatures
less than 40C.

I'd say that 20A breakers are just fine.

dwayne

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2004\08\18@014626 by Mike Reid

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A very important consideration about US electical code is that you are
supposed to derate circuits 20%. So a 20 amp breaker which is rated at
2400 watts is actually sized at 16 amps or 1920 watts. Although running
it at 20 amps will not burn the house down, the codes require the
derating. I work in the home automation industry and deal with
electricians daily. If they go over a few watts here and there they
don't worry. I believe the code does allow for 20 amps on circuits if
the 20 amp load doesn't exceed 3 hours. It's all about the heat rise and
cable lengths.  Remember that when calculating cable lengths for voltage
drop you have to double the distance.  An actual hundred foot run to an
outlet is factored at 200 feet.


{Original Message removed}

2004\08\18@080420 by John Ferrell

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From a practical standpoint, it is easier to make several runs of #14
instead of one #12. Most outlets & fixtures available at home improvement
stores are sized for #14. I pay $3.50 for a box of 10 outlets. I find it
best to separate lighting and outlet circuits so I am not in the dark when I
trip a breaker.

John Ferrell
http://DixieNC.US

{Original Message removed}

2004\08\18@090537 by Lawrence Lile

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Everybody seems to be missing the mark on this question:

1.  NEC allows 12 ga wire on 20 amp circuits.
2. Maximum distance allowed by NEC for any wire is that distance that results in 3% voltage drop from the panelboard to the load.
3. #12 wire, according to NEC chapter 9 table 9, has an impedance in nonmetallic conduit (also applies to romex) of 1.7 ohms per 1000 feet.

4. 3% of 120V (nominal) is 3.6 volts.  The maximum current you can get out of a 20 amp breaker on a sustained basis is 16 amps.  One a single phase circuit, you get two trips (from the panelboard to the load and back) that produce voltage drop.  The number I get out of this is 66 feet is the longest run of #12 that you should use.  
5. Most of the time, you will not be using 16 amps, so this is the most conservative estimate.  There are probably runs of more than 66 feet in the building you are sitting in right now, and they are probably not serving 16 amp loads.  If you want to run your table saw in the garage, though, this is a good rule to follow.
-- Lawrence Lile, P.E.
Electrical and Electronic Solutions
Project Solutions Companies
http://www.projsolco.com

> {Original Message removed}

2004\08\18@090745 by Dave Lag

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IIRC a 5% voltage drop over length is allowed- check here:

This is the bible from which you will work
these guys have done a great job over the years:

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/electrical-wiring/part1/preamble.html

Dave

At 09:31 PM 8/17/04, you wrote:
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2004\08\18@092957 by Matt Redmond

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Okay - that's what I needed to know.  My hungriest devices are a table saw
and a 15A air compressor that regularly pops 15A breakers.  Each of them
will be less than 20' from the breaker box and only run very intermittently.
Sounds like 12ga with 20A outlets and breakers will be okay.

As far as legalities go:  The city can go pound sand.  I'm not about to jump
through a bunch of government hoops to wire my own garage with simple single
phase power.  I /will/, however, have an electrician brother-of-my-buddy
come wire it into the house's breaker box, which he'll do for the low-low
price of a 12 pack of Sam Adams <g>.

Thanks for all your input!

-matt redmond

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2004\08\18@113158 by Randy Abernathy

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In a message dated 8/18/2004 9:31:17 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
EraseMEmdredmondspamCHARTER.NET writes:

As far  as legalities go:  The city can go pound sand.  I'm not about to  jump
through a bunch of government hoops to wire my own garage with simple  single
phase power.  I /will/, however, have an electrician  brother-of-my-buddy
come wire it into the house's breaker box, which he'll  do for the low-low
price of a 12 pack of Sam Adams <g>.

Thanks  for all your input!

-matt redmond



Matt:

I don't know your local codes but where I live if you don't have the proper
permits, they can actually have the power turned off to your home until you
pay  whatever fines, etc. they request.  So, be careful about telling them to
pound the sand.

Randy  Abernathy
4626 Old Stilesboro Road NW
Acworth, GA 30101-4066
Phone /  Fax: 770-974-5295
Cell: 678-772-4113
E-mail: RemoveMECnc002EraseMEspamEraseMEaol.com

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2004\08\18@114157 by Bob J

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Hi Matt,

I just finished roughing in the wiring for the new house I am building myself.  I have had the same problems you point out with compressers, saws, etc. that take a pretty large kick in current to get going.  I ran #8 3-wire for those to 30amp breakers, which is on the overkill but safe side.  A 20amp circuit may be marginal in my experience with compressors, but should be fine for the other stuff.  The rest of the house is completely wired with #12 romex on 20amp circuits.  In my garage I ran five circuits, one was a real bear to run and that was the #6 3-wire cable to a 50amp breaker for my welder.

I'm with you on the inspectors. Fortunately for me, in my area the building inspector passed away last year and they haven't found a replacement yet, so anything goes.  Not that I do shoddy work on my own house, frequently when dealing with inspectors they may squawk about something minor; like having a outlet further than 6ft from a corner.  I'm very conscientious about my work, all the inspectors would do is get in my way.  I've seen contractors make stuff "to code", and once the inspector leaves they change it to suit the owner.

Hope this helps.

Regards,
Bob

Matt Redmond <RemoveMEmdredmondTakeThisOuTspamspamCHARTER.NET> wrote ..
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2004\08\18@114611 by Matt Redmond

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Well first they'd need to know about it, which is virtually impossible.

Then they'd have to prove it, which is even more impossible.  My garage /was/ wired by the builder for the lights and door opener - so it was 'green-tagged' along with the house by a code inspector who very likely has no records of precisely how many outlets there were, etc...  Or maybe he does - I have no idea what kind of records they keep.

I /do/ want this done safely & will take all care to ensure that it is safe.  After all, if anyone is going to get zapped or lose garage/house to fire, it'll likely be /me/.

Thanks,

-matt


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2004\08\18@115051 by Matt Redmond

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part 1 620 bytes content-type:text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 (decoded 7bit)

Bob,

You mentioned isnpectors 'squawking' about an outlet more than 6' from a corner - what's up with that?  Why would it be relevant where an outlet is in relation to a corner?

I mean, I can understand outlets near sinks having GFCIs and similar requirements - but a corner??

-matt


>
> From: Bob J <EraseMEpiclistspamEraseMEMAIL.CSCAPE.NET>
> Date: 2004/08/18 Wed PM 03:54:59 GMT
> To: @spam@PICLIST@spam@spamspam_OUTMITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Subject: Re: [OT:] Inside wiring - what gauge?
>
>

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2004\08\18@115824 by Bob J

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The way I understand it the code says an outlet should not be further than 6 feet from a corner, and the distance between outlets should not be greater than 6 feet.  The idea behind this is so a 6 foot extension cord wouldn't have to be stretched (and thus a fire hazard if the prongs were pulling from the outlet) to reach any place along a wall.  In my house frequently I had my wife mark places where she wanted outlets... so in the majority of places I'm within those limits but its a requirement nonetheless.

Regards,
Bob

Matt Redmond <.....mdredmondspam_OUTspamCHARTER.NET> wrote ..
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2004\08\18@120238 by Randy Abernathy

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In a message dated 8/18/2004 11:52:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
spamBeGonemdredmond@spam@spamspam_OUTCHARTER.NET writes:

You  mentioned isnpectors 'squawking' about an outlet more than 6' from a
corner -  what's up with that?  Why would it be relevant where an outlet is in
relation to a corner?

I mean, I can understand outlets near sinks  having GFCIs and similar
requirements - but a  corner??

-matt



It has been my experience that there is no rhyme or reason to local
electrical codes here in the U.S.   Also, I have found that many of  the inspectors
have NO idea about electricity, wiring or anything technical  regarding
electricity.  They tend to read the code and interpret in a very  literal fashion.  In
some cases the code was written by non-technical  people and may be worded
differently from the actual intentions of the  authors.  This makes for a very
pain in the rear situation in the real  world.

Randy  Abernathy
4626 Old Stilesboro Road NW
Acworth, GA 30101-4066
Phone /  Fax: 770-974-5295
Cell: 678-772-4113
E-mail: TakeThisOuTCnc002spamspamaol.com

I  furnish technical support, repair, and other related services for your
industrial woodworking machinery. My background as Senior Service Engineer for
the SCMI Group for nearly fifteen years with factory training, combines with
my  extensive background in electronics, mechanics, pneumatics, electrical and
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2004\08\18@120659 by Randy Abernathy

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In a message dated 8/18/2004 11:47:30 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
RemoveMEmdredmondEraseMEspamspam_OUTCHARTER.NET writes:

Well  first they'd need to know about it, which is virtually impossible.

Then  they'd have to prove it, which is even more impossible.  My garage
/was/  wired by the builder for the lights and door opener - so it was
'green-tagged'  along with the house by a code inspector who very likely has no records
of  precisely how many outlets there were, etc...  Or maybe he does - I have
no idea what kind of records they keep.

I /do/ want this done safely  & will take all care to ensure that it is safe.
After all, if anyone  is going to get zapped or lose garage/house to fire,
it'll likely be  /me/.

Thanks,



Agreed but for some reason here, they find out more often than you  would
think.  Now this might be a nosey neighbor.  Or, it might even  be that they have
other ways.  In any case, there have been a number of  cases here in Cobb
County where the home owner had to pay rather large fines to  either get his
power turned back on or to prevent it being turned off.   Seemed to me it would
have been easier just to pay the permit fee.  You can  still do the wiring
yourself but, of course, you have to have it  inspected.

Randy  Abernathy
4626 Old Stilesboro Road NW
Acworth, GA 30101-4066
Phone /  Fax: 770-974-5295
Cell: 678-772-4113
E-mail: @spam@Cnc002RemoveMEspamEraseMEaol.com

I  furnish technical support, repair, and other related services for your
industrial woodworking machinery. My background as Senior Service Engineer for
the SCMI Group for nearly fifteen years with factory training, combines with
my  extensive background in electronics, mechanics, pneumatics, electrical and
CNC  machinery to offer you needed support for your  machinery.

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2004\08\18@120700 by hael Rigby-Jones

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{Quote hidden}

Is 6 feet some kind of magic distance, or just a common length of extension
lead?

Mike

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2004\08\18@120905 by Matt Redmond

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part 1 886 bytes content-type:text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 (decoded 7bit)

Oh, I misunderstood you.  I thought you were saying that /no/ outlet could be more than 6 feet from a corner.  I take it you can have an outlet more than 6 feet from a corner as long as there's another outlet closer to the corner?

The way I did the garage is basically outlets on every third stud at about 1.5' and 4.5' from the floor - or something like that - down each of the three walls.  Each wall/row is on its own breaker - so that's 6 20A breakers total - wall-1-top row, wall-1-bottom row, etc...  Plus another 15A circuit for lights/opener.


>
> From: Bob J <RemoveMEpiclist@spam@spamspamBeGoneMAIL.CSCAPE.NET>
> Date: 2004/08/18 Wed PM 04:12:08 GMT
> To: .....PICLIST@spam@spamEraseMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Subject: Re: [OT:] Inside wiring - what gauge?
>
>

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2004\08\18@120906 by Randy Abernathy

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In a message dated 8/18/2004 12:08:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
.....Michael.Rigby-JonesSTOPspamspam@spam@BOOKHAM.COM writes:

Is 6  feet some kind of magic distance, or just a common length of  extension
lead?

Mike




At one time, 6' extension chords were probably the most common so  it stuck.

Randy  Abernathy
4626 Old Stilesboro Road NW
Acworth, GA 30101-4066
Phone /  Fax: 770-974-5295
Cell: 678-772-4113
E-mail: Cnc002EraseMEspam@spam@aol.com

I  furnish technical support, repair, and other related services for your
industrial woodworking machinery. My background as Senior Service Engineer for
the SCMI Group for nearly fifteen years with factory training, combines with
my  extensive background in electronics, mechanics, pneumatics, electrical and
CNC  machinery to offer you needed support for your  machinery.

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2004\08\18@120907 by 4HAZ

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Code specs for house wiring requires an outlet every 6' of wall space
uninterrupted at the floor.
The purpose of this is to reduce the use of drop-cords and insure that there
will be an outlet near anything that needs it.
This is also to eliminate running a cord across or through a doorway.
As for corners, it is quite common for things requiring AC to find
themselves located in the corner, their cords are usually 6' long, so it
works out nicely if an outlet nearby.
All in all this code is for the safety and convenience of the homeowner.

KF4HAZ - Lonnie Underwood (3rd generation Underwood Plumbing & Electrical)

----- From: "Matt Redmond" <mdredmond@C

> Bob,
>
> You mentioned isnpectors 'squawking' about an outlet more than 6' from a
corner - what's up with that?  Why would it be relevant where an outlet is
in relation to a corner?
>
> I mean, I can understand outlets near sinks having GFCIs and similar
requirements - but a corner??
>
> -matt

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2004\08\18@121727 by Bob J

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> Is 6 feet some kind of magic distance, or just a common length of extension
> lead?
>
> Mike

Apparently.  They actually make cords longer than 6ft? :)  Again, this is why some of the code is stupid.

Another good one: from the garage to the house, a steel door is required.  The idea is that if a fire started in the garage, it would not spread as quickly into the rest of a house if the door was steel.  Never mind the wood studs in the wall, or the roof catching on fire.  Needless to say, a friend of mine had a steel door in place when the inspector came by, once he left it got replaced with an nice insulated fiberglass door with a window :)

Regards,
Bob

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2004\08\18@122028 by Randy Abernathy

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In a message dated 8/18/2004 12:18:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
spamBeGonepiclist@spam@spamMAIL.CSCAPE.NET writes:

Apparently.  They actually make cords longer than 6ft? :)   Again, this is
why some of the code is stupid.

Another good one: from  the garage to the house, a steel door is required.
The idea is that if a  fire started in the garage, it would not spread as
quickly into the rest of a  house if the door was steel.  Never mind the wood studs
in the wall, or  the roof catching on fire.  Needless to say, a friend of
mine had a steel  door in place when the inspector came by, once he left it got
replaced with an  nice insulated fiberglass door with a window  :)

Regards,
Bob



Like I said, written by non-technical people for the most part and  ones with
no common sense either.

Randy  Abernathy
4626 Old Stilesboro Road NW
Acworth, GA 30101-4066
Phone /  Fax: 770-974-5295
Cell: 678-772-4113
E-mail: RemoveMECnc002EraseMEspamKILLspamaol.com

I  furnish technical support, repair, and other related services for your
industrial woodworking machinery. My background as Senior Service Engineer for
the SCMI Group for nearly fifteen years with factory training, combines with
my  extensive background in electronics, mechanics, pneumatics, electrical and
CNC  machinery to offer you needed support for your  machinery.

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2004\08\18@122439 by Randy Abernathy

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In a message dated 8/18/2004 12:10:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
.....techsupportspamRemoveMEFALCONWIRELESS.NET writes:

As for  corners, it is quite common for things requiring AC to find
themselves  located in the corner, their cords are usually 6' long, so it
works out  nicely if an outlet nearby.



Problem with this is that over the past several years, the chord  length on
appliances and other items has been shrinking so that many of them are
sometimes less than 2 feet, funny thing is that in the instructions for the  device,
it says this was done for safety and they ACTUALLY tell you to use a
"suitable" extension chord with the appliance or device.  Seems this  would be totally
contrary to these codes.

Randy  Abernathy
4626 Old Stilesboro Road NW
Acworth, GA 30101-4066
Phone /  Fax: 770-974-5295
Cell: 678-772-4113
E-mail: Cnc002spam@spam@aol.com

I  furnish technical support, repair, and other related services for your
industrial woodworking machinery. My background as Senior Service Engineer for
the SCMI Group for nearly fifteen years with factory training, combines with
my  extensive background in electronics, mechanics, pneumatics, electrical and
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2004\08\18@123312 by Lawrence Lile

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The NEC specifies outlets on 12' centers for certain types of rooms, typically bedrooms.  The 12' rule is applied a lot of other places, but I don't believe it applies to garages.  As this is a minimum, he can add as many outlets as he wants. MORE POWER!

Inspectors are great.  In Booneville, MO, inspectors require a floor drain outside of any walk-in coolers.  The logic is, cockroaches will crawl up the drains and end up in your walkin cooler if the drain is on the inside.  So floors all have to slope to the door, and the drain is outside to get rid of any mop slop.

But in Columbia, MO, 22 miles away, they apparently have a different kind of cockroach, because there the inspectors require that you have a floor drain inside of any walkin cooler. Floors cannot slope to the door, but must slope to the internal drain.  Funny how these cockroaches, that can withstand nuclear blasts and were found on an Apollo mission, can't hitch a ride from Columbia to Boonville in a sack of groceries.  <sarcasm off>
The city inspector likely has no record of your house plans nor how many outlets you originally put in the garage, nor cares.  If he does not see you put the wiring in, then it does not raise any eyebrows.  
-- Lawrence Lile,
> {Original Message removed}

2004\08\18@123855 by Bob J

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> In a message dated 8/18/2004 12:10:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> RemoveMEtechsupportKILLspamspamTakeThisOuTFALCONWIRELESS.NET writes:
>
> As for  corners, it is quite common for things requiring AC to find
> themselves  located in the corner, their cords are usually 6' long, so
> it
> works out  nicely if an outlet nearby.

I agree with the six foot rules in general, for me it hasn't been a problem anyway since I've been overzealous with placing outlets.  But what bugs me is an inspector can get his tape measure out and if its 6'-2" then he could make you go to the trouble of fixing it, in some situations at great cost, because of a stud location, interference with plumbing, etc.

Thank goodness I don't have to deal them.

Regards,
Bob

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2004\08\18@124726 by hael Rigby-Jones

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>-----Original Message-----
>From: pic microcontroller discussion list
>[RemoveMEPICLISTspam_OUTspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU] On Behalf Of Bob J
>Sent: 18 August 2004 17:31
>To: PICLISTspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
>Subject: Re: [OT:] Inside wiring - what gauge?
>
>
>> Is 6 feet some kind of magic distance, or just a common length of
>> extension lead?
>>
>> Mike
>
>Apparently.  They actually make cords longer than 6ft? :)
>Again, this is why some of the code is stupid.
>

Just thinking about this some more, if it was designed around 6ft cords,
then surely the outlets would be 12feet apart? :o)

Mike

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2004\08\18@134826 by 4HAZ

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----- From: "Bob J" <piclist@M

> > In a message dated 8/18/2004 12:10:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> > techsupportspam_OUTspamFALCONWIRELESS.NET writes:
> >
> > As for  corners, it is quite common for things requiring AC to find
> > themselves  located in the corner, their cords are usually 6' long, so
> > it
> > works out  nicely if an outlet nearby.
>
> I agree with the six foot rules in general, for me it hasn't been a
problem anyway since I've been overzealous with placing outlets.  But what
bugs me is an inspector can get his tape measure out and if its 6'-2" then
he could make you go to the trouble of fixing it, in some situations at
great cost, because of a stud location, interference with plumbing, etc.
>
> Thank goodness I don't have to deal them.
>
> Regards,
> Bob

6' 2" is not likely to be the case, standard stud spacing results in outlets
having to be placed every 5' 4" most of the time.
KF4HAZ - Lonnie

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2004\08\18@135654 by Dave VanHorn

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>
>>Apparently.  They actually make cords longer than 6ft? :)
>>Again, this is why some of the code is stupid.
>>
>
>Just thinking about this some more, if it was designed around 6ft cords,
>then surely the outlets would be 12feet apart? :o)

I don't remember where/when, but I remember hearing about a regulation for the maximum number of outlets in a room, "to save energy".  My office would be insanely over budget. It would be fair to estimate that I have 100 110V devices plugged in at any moment.  The total consumption is about 1kW or so as measured by the UPS that it all runs through, to the single outlet that runs it all.. (which is not detectably warm)

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2004\08\18@140450 by Howard Winter

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On Wed, 18 Aug 2004 12:20:44 EDT, Randy Abernathy wrote:

> Another good one: from  the garage to the house, a steel door is required.
> The idea is that if a  fire started in the garage, it would not spread as
> quickly into the rest of a  house if the door was steel.  Never mind the wood studs
> in the wall, or  the roof catching on fire.  Needless to say, a friend of
> mine had a steel  door in place when the inspector came by, once he left it got
> replaced with an  nice insulated fiberglass door with a window  :)

I'm assuming this is a built-in garage with a door into the house  :-)  In Britain there has to be a "1 hour
rated" door between the garage and the house, which can be made of all sorts of things but can easily look
just like any other door, as long as it's rated to withstand a fire for an hour (it would be certified as
such).  The only thing is that glass in a 1-hour door has to be wired to meet the requirements - presumably it
keeps the pane together even if the glass cracks in the heat.  I presume a Pyrex pane would do as well, but
nobody makes those and they'd probably cost a fortune!

There are also regulations about the walls and ceiling (assuming there's a room above) being fireproof.
Wooden stud walls wouldn't qualify!  The one I've never understood is that the garage floor has to be at least
4" lower than the house's floor.  Presumably because fuel vapour is heavier than air, so it won't "leak" into
the house.

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England

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2004\08\18@140655 by Andrew Warren

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On 18 Aug 2004 at 8:30, Matt Redmond wrote:

> As far as legalities go:  The city can go pound sand.  I'm not about to
> jump through a bunch of government hoops to wire my own garage with
> simple single phase power.  I /will/, however, have an electrician
> brother-of-my-buddy come wire it into the house's breaker box, which
> he'll do for the low-low price of a 12 pack of Sam Adams <g>.

Wow, nice... He's willing to risk his license, bond/insurance,
livelihood, and all his worldly assets for a 12-pack of beer?  What a
guy.

I sympathize with your desire to avoid bureaucratic red tape (and
permit fees), but really... Sometimes, there's a reason for following
the rules, even if it's only because doing so can lower your
liability.

Just my opinion, of course.

-Andrew

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2004\08\18@140929 by Dave Tweed

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If you guys are going to do your own work, you really should get the actual
codes, read and understand them, and not just assume that the writers and
inspectors are idiots.

Granted, sometimes local codes get a little weird, but the national and
state codes generally are based on good common sense and decades of
real-life experience.

I do most of my own work around the house, including electrical wiring,
plumbing and light construction, and I have purchased copies of the
National Electrical Code and my state's Building Code. Yes, this cost me
a few hundred dollars, but I consider it cheap insurance when my own butt
is on the line. Everything I do is up to code, which is a lot more than can
be said about a lot of the previous work done in this circa-1856 house.

Falcon Wireless Tech Support - KF4HAZ <RemoveMEtechsupportRemoveMEspamEraseMEFALCONWIRELESS.NET> wrote:
> Code specs for house wiring requires an outlet every 6' of wall space
> uninterrupted at the floor.

Not quite. NEC Article 210-52 requires that every point along an
uninterrupted wall be not further than 6' horizontally from an outlet.
Generally, this means that an outlet must be positioned within 6' of a door
frame and outlets must be no more than 12' apart. These distances may be
measured around corners.

> The purpose of this is to reduce the use of drop-cords and insure that
> there will be an outlet near anything that needs it.
> This is also to eliminate running a cord across or through a doorway.

Yes. Most plug-in lamps and appliances come with 6' cords.

Bob J <KILLspampiclistspamspamBeGoneMAIL.CSCAPE.NET> wrote:
> Another good one: from the garage to the house, a steel door is required.
> The idea is that if a fire started in the garage, it would not spread as
> quickly into the rest of a house if the door was steel.  Never mind the
> wood studs in the wall, or the roof catching on fire.  Needless to say, a
> friend of mine had a steel door in place when the inspector came by, once
> he left it got replaced with an nice insulated fiberglass door with a
> window :)

Most building codes require that if you have an attached garage, all
surfaces in common with living spaces (walls, ceilings, etc.) must have a
higher fire resistance rating than ordinary interior partitions. Yes, this
means a steel door if there's a door in the surface, but that isn't all
there is to it. If the garage was built correctly, that isn't ordinary
drywall in the walls.

-- Dave Tweed

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2004\08\18@142007 by M. Adam Davis

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The walls and ceiling of the garage that join the living space of the
house must also be built to fire retardent standards - typically in the
form of 1/2" drywall.  This is why many garages look like they are only
1/2 drywalled when first built - they only drywall against walls shared
with the house, and the entire ceiling.  Further, the garage floor must
be lower than the home floor - there is always a step up into the home
from the garage.  Oil or fuel spills won't go into the home.

There are a ton of codes, and surprisingly most are sane and useful once
you understand the reasoning behind them.

The rest are usually to prevent some one in a thousand chance occurance,
and are a little overprotective.

-Adam

Bob J wrote:

{Quote hidden}

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2004\08\18@151233 by Bob Axtell

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Well said, Andrew.

The primary reason for the National Electrical Code is to make sure that
fires are minimized. The wire guage
must be big enough to ensure that the breaker is TRIPPED instead of the
the wire overheating and starting a fire.
Thats ALL its about. And its very, very, VERY important.

These inspectors may be drunks, but if they can identify a problem with
your wiring, its worth the permit fee.
My family and my house are worth too much for me to take a chance. And I
have an EE, studied nuclear
power generation in school (and hated every minute).

--Bob


Andrew Warren wrote:

{Quote hidden}

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2004\08\19@065052 by Howard Winter

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Bob,

On Wed, 18 Aug 2004 12:11:48 -0700, Bob Axtell wrote:

> The primary reason for the National Electrical Code is to make sure that
> fires are minimized. The wire guage
> must be big enough to ensure that the breaker is TRIPPED instead of the
> the wire overheating and starting a fire.
> Thats ALL its about. And its very, very, VERY important.

Interesting!  Here in Britain BS7671 "IEE Wiring Regulations" are at least as concerned with preventing people
from becoming part of a circuit, as with the fire potential.  Whether the fact that we have a little over
twice the voltage means that we are more aware of the problem, I don't know, but I am constantly amazed at
some US practices, like having 2-pin sockets which are not keyed, so you can plug something in either way
round, and the availability of adaptors to allow 3-pin plugs to be used in these, with no way to guarantee
that the little earthing tag is actually connected to the mounting screw.

Just as one example of "the Regs" here, in bathrooms you aren't allowed to have ordinary lightswitches (have
to be pull-cord operated) and the only outlet sockets allowed are special "shaver only" 1A sockets which
incorporate an isolating transformer.  So the "hairdryer in the bath" thing can only happen if someone runs an
extension cable in from outside the bathroom, which means you can't close the door, which means it's less
likely to happen (but you can't make anything foolproof of course).

What also surprises me, having seen it mentioned in this thread, is that lighting can be connected to the same
circuits as sockets.  Doesn't this mean that with a fault in a light fixture, the pendant cable has to take
the full fault current needed to trip the breaker (15 or 20A)?  Here we *always* have seperate circuits for
lighting, traditionally fused at 5A but these days with a 6A circuit breaker, and typically serving one floor.

I don't know how the cable cross-section sizes match up with AWG, but we mostly use only two: 1mm^2 for
lighting, 2.5mm^2 for power.  These are rated for at least 11A and 18.5A respectively.  Power circuits are
wired as a "ring main", with the cable daisy-chaining to every socket and then back to the consumer unit so
the loads are shared "both ways".  Exception to this is for single fixed high-current devices like electric
cookers, electric showers and immersion heaters, which have a single radial circuit to themselves, and may use
4, 6, 10 or 16mm^2 cable depending on the power of the item.

As for the regulations as they apply to dometic installations, the guide I have says that they have legal
status in Scotland and must be followed, but in England and Wales they do not need to be followed "although
even in these situations a prosecution may follow an accident"  :-)  There certainly is no such thing as a
permit to do work on your own house beforehand, and no requirement for certification afterwards.  But if you
are having new circuits connected which require the "meter tails" to be connected or reconnected, the
electricity supplier won't do so (and nobody else is allowed to - the connections are protected by
tamper-evident seals) unless there is evidence of tests for resistance (making sure the rings really are
that!), earthing and insulation - which would need an accredited electrician.  The system doesn't have to be
inspected, but it does have to pass the tests.

As I was writing this I checked various facts with "The Electrician's Guide to the 16th edition of the IEE
Wiring Regulations, BS7671" and according to the back cover: "No electrician should leave home without this
book!" - or in the situation we're discussing, stay at home!  :-)

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England

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2004\08\19@100249 by Mike Reid

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I was on a walk through with an inspector on a 14,000 square foot that I
help automate. We installed a 120 zone CentraLite lighting control
system, $80,000 home theater, 18 zones of Russound distributed audio,
over a dozen zero light cameras, and other goodies. This inspector went
through everything, We used a low voltage box for the volume control
keypad in the garage and we had to change it to a regular box. We didn't
have a back box for the garge ceiling speakers and had to put back boxes
in and provide a manufacturer's certificate on the box showing that it
was UL rated for 1 hour burn through. Most of the garages now have
double 5/8 inch sheetrock. This inspector also made the plumber change
the sink fixture in the garage so that it had a metal shield behind it.
The subcontractors on the job moaned at all the fixes from the
inspector. I figured that the homeowner would be happy to have a guy
like that going through the project. He checked the stair railing height
with a tape measure and if it was more than 1 inch off they had to
adjust it. I've never seen such a complete inspection, but I learned a
lot from the experience.

As for the theater... We built dual 15 inch MTX subs into the floor of
the back seating level, and dual 12's in the front. We have about 2000
watts powering the subs. The sound experience is a memorable one!



{Original Message removed}

2004\08\19@105103 by Russell McMahon

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flavicon
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> keypad in the garage and we had to change it to a regular box. We didn't
> have a back box for the garge ceiling speakers and had to put back boxes
> in and provide a manufacturer's certificate on the box showing that it
> was UL rated for 1 hour burn through.

My friend hired two industrial units side by side.
One housed a full screen printing and clothing labelling shop with hot
presses, screening machines, computers and more. The other was a "dirty"
environment with cleaning bays and other equipment. Between the units was an
unlocked door that could be left open or closed as desired.

As his wife commented "if the door had been open we would be retired by
now".

A fire started in the dirty shop.
Ever walked through a factory that has been not TOO badly burned but which
has had vv high temperatures and smoke beyond belief? What isn't melted is
caked with an irremoveable layer of black. Nothing survives.

The wall was "gib board" - fire rated wallboard with plaster core and paper
surface. It works. In most of the factory there was a vague burnt smell. In
the lunch room there was a charred wall where fire had tried hard to come
through the back of a switchboard. The inspector is your friend.



       RM

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2004\08\19@111214 by Randy Abernathy

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In a message dated 8/19/2004 6:52:10 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
spam_OUTHDRWSTOPspamspamH2ORG.DEMON.CO.UK writes:

like  having 2-pin sockets which are not keyed, so you can plug something in
either  way



I don't know where you get this information but for years we have had
"keyed" receptacles and plugs.  Even if there are only two pins you still  can't
plug them in but one way because one of the "pins" is wider than the other  and
the receptacle is the same way.  The requirements for grounding and  using
ground fault interupt devices are all geared toward not having someone
electrocuted.

Randy  Abernathy
4626 Old Stilesboro Road NW
Acworth, GA 30101-4066
Phone /  Fax: 770-974-5295
Cell: 678-772-4113
E-mail: RemoveMECnc002spamspamaol.com

I  furnish technical support, repair, and other related services for your
industrial woodworking machinery. My background as Senior Service Engineer for
the SCMI Group for nearly fifteen years with factory training, combines with
my  extensive background in electronics, mechanics, pneumatics, electrical and
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2004\08\19@113122 by Howard Winter

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Randy,

On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 11:12:44 EDT, Randy Abernathy wrote:

{Quote hidden}

I saw it in my girlfriend's house in New York.  Not only do most of the two-pin plugs have the pins the same
width (OK so they may be old, but they still work so they're still there!) but she has these extension cables
with the business end being a plastic strip that has two long conductors (narrow channels about 10" long)  so
you can plug as many items in as you can fit into the length.

I've also found that you can get a "different width" plug into a socket the wrong way if you force it.

> The requirements for grounding and  using ground fault interupt devices are all geared toward not having
someone electrocuted.

How do you do grounding with only two pins?  As far as I can see the distribution box at her place has only
CBs, not any sort of GFCI.

Cheers,



Howard Winter
St.Albans, England

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2004\08\19@113537 by hael Rigby-Jones

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{Quote hidden}

Is it the US plug that has a round earth pin and two very thin, flimsy
looking pins for the live and neutral? (compared to the UK plug that has
huge pins and hurts rather a lot if you accidently stand on it without shoes
on).

Mike

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2004\08\19@124300 by Howard Winter

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Mike,

On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 16:38:35 +0100, Michael Rigby-Jones wrote:

> Is it the US plug that has a round earth pin and two very thin, flimsy
> looking pins for the live and neutral? (compared to the UK plug that has
> huge pins and hurts rather a lot if you accidently stand on it without shoes
> on).

Yes, but a lot of things have plugs with only two pins.  One of them has the end flared out so that it's wider
than the other, and the wall sockets have the slots different sizes to make it one-way-only, but as I said you
can force them in the wrong way round if you're brutal enough.  And whereas it can take two hands to remove a
UK plug from its socket (especially after you've trodden on it as above, and one of the pins isn't quite
perpendicular :-) the US ones will fall out on their own given a heavy enough cable or wall-wart PSU.  And on
the way out they expose the still-live pins...

Cheers,



Howard Winter
St.Albans, England

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2004\08\19@133114 by dr. Imre Bartfai

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Hello,

may be I miss something but I can not interpret the expression "current
loss". It does not make any sense for me (maybe I am silly). With the
given data, I calculated *voltage loss*, which is in this case 4V
(approx). Or one may relate the wire power loss to the total one, which is
in this case 75 W to 2200W, so the power loss is 3.4%. Or - which is more
meaningful for choosing a breaker - u may want to calculate the power /
length, which in this case is below 1 W / foot, so I think it is harmless.
Circuit breakers should prevent fire, does not they?

Imre

On Tue, 17 Aug 2004, Robert B. wrote:

{Quote hidden}

> {Original Message removed}

2004\08\19@134149 by asdf ghjk

picon face
On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 17:42:21 +0100 Howard Winter <spam_OUTHDRWRemoveMEspamEraseMEH2ORG.DEMON.CO.UK>
writes:
> the US ones will fall out on their own given a
> heavy enough cable or wall-wart PSU.  And on
> the way out they expose the still-live pins...


...As my 2-1/2 year old son found out.  The outlet behind the fridge in
my old house is installed incorrectly with the round ground pin down.
The weight of the plug partially dislodged it from the outlet.  My son,
playing with a freebie tape measure, just recieved in an order from
Automation Direct, managed to stick it behind the fridge, between the
plug and the wall.  He thought the fireworks were pretty cool!  He was
unharmed as he was holding onto the plastic end of the tape.  The other
end, however, had two nice chunks removed from the blade.

Aaron

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2004\08\19@135304 by Randy Abernathy

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In a message dated 8/19/2004 11:37:22 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
TakeThisOuTMichael.Rigby-JonesRemoveMEspam@spam@BOOKHAM.COM writes:

Is it  the US plug that has a round earth pin and two very thin, flimsy
looking  pins for the live and neutral? (compared to the UK plug that has
huge pins  and hurts rather a lot if you accidently stand on it without  shoes
on).

Mike



We do have straight pins but. we also only use 110-120 vac to run our
residential appliances with the exception of very high current items such as
electric stoves, etc. then we use VERY heavy pins on the plugs and they are  keyed
and in some cases these are hard wired with no plugs.  I would  think the 220
volts used in most European homes is far more dangerous and  therefore you
should have much more stable plugs.  Although 110 to 120  volts can be harmful and
in some cases fatal, it is no where near fatal as often  as 220 volts would
be overall.  Also, if the receptacles are properly  installed, the plugs don't
fall out easily.

Randy  Abernathy
4626 Old Stilesboro Road NW
Acworth, GA 30101-4066
Phone /  Fax: 770-974-5295
Cell: 678-772-4113
E-mail: EraseMECnc002RemoveMEspamaol.com

I  furnish technical support, repair, and other related services for your
industrial woodworking machinery. My background as Senior Service Engineer for
the SCMI Group for nearly fifteen years with factory training, combines with
my  extensive background in electronics, mechanics, pneumatics, electrical and
CNC  machinery to offer you needed support for your  machinery.

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2004\08\19@135512 by Randy Abernathy

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In a message dated 8/19/2004 11:33:02 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
spamHDRW.....spamspamH2ORG.DEMON.CO.UK writes:

How do  you do grounding with only two pins?  As far as I can see the
distribution box at her place has only
CBs, not any sort of  GFCI.

Cheers,



The Neutral part of the circuit is connected directly to  ground.  Keep in
mind that we use a center tapped transformer that is 220  volts across the
secondary with 110 volts between the center tap and either end  of that secondary.
That is how we get the 110 used in the normal  receptacles and lighting.
That center tap is grounded so that one of the  two pins on the plug is actually
connected to ground through that neutral.

Randy  Abernathy
4626 Old Stilesboro Road NW
Acworth, GA 30101-4066
Phone /  Fax: 770-974-5295
Cell: 678-772-4113
E-mail: Cnc002spam_OUTspam@spam@aol.com

I  furnish technical support, repair, and other related services for your
industrial woodworking machinery. My background as Senior Service Engineer for
the SCMI Group for nearly fifteen years with factory training, combines with
my  extensive background in electronics, mechanics, pneumatics, electrical and
CNC  machinery to offer you needed support for your  machinery.

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2004\08\19@201655 by M. Adam Davis

flavicon
face
That's us.  The only thing I like about your plugs that ours don't have
is the plastic guard along 1/2 of the shaft of the pins.  Our plugs make
electrical contact before the wires are completely covered.  While it
takes a small finger to get in between the plug and the socket, it is
possible to make contact with one or both wires while plugging in or
pulling out if you don't have a good grip on the part you're supposed to
hold on to.

Children have just the right size fingers for this, but they only make
that mistake once.  ;-)

Fortunately it's not easy to really damage yourself on 110vac.  Ground
fault interrupters provide a lot of protection.

-Adam

Michael Rigby-Jones wrote:

>>{Original Message removed}

2004\08\20@044154 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>The only thing I like about your plugs that ours don't have
>is the plastic guard along 1/2 of the shaft of the pins.

Continental plugs with 2 round pins are also done like this. I believe it
may be a European directive thing, as earlier versions of Continental and UK
plugs don't have the protection sleeving.

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2004\08\20@110630 by Randy Abernathy

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In a message dated 8/20/2004 4:43:12 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
.....A.B.Pearcespamspam.....RL.AC.UK writes:

Continental plugs with 2 round pins are also done like this. I believe  it
may be a European directive thing, as earlier versions of Continental  and UK
plugs don't have the protection  sleeving.




I think that is correct, when I was in Italy the first time in 1985  the
plugs had completely bare pins on them and there were only two pins per plug  and
they were the same size as well.  However since then, I have noticed  they
have changed the plug/pin design.

Randy  Abernathy
4626 Old Stilesboro Road NW
Acworth, GA 30101-4066
Phone /  Fax: 770-974-5295
Cell: 678-772-4113
E-mail: Cnc002KILLspamspamEraseMEaol.com

I  furnish technical support, repair, and other related services for your
industrial woodworking machinery. My background as Senior Service Engineer for
the SCMI Group for nearly fifteen years with factory training, combines with
my  extensive background in electronics, mechanics, pneumatics, electrical and
CNC  machinery to offer you needed support for your  machinery.

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2004\08\21@051730 by Howard Winter

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flavicon
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Randy,

On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 11:07:04 EDT, Randy Abernathy wrote:

{Quote hidden}

Yes, we've had the 3--rectangular-pin "13amp" plug for as long as I can remember - I remember getting a shock
from plugging one in when I was about 7 (early 1960s)!  I had my little finger underneath the plug as I pushed
it in (the cable exits at the bottom) and was touching the live wire where the insulation had worn through.

The socket configuration has been the same for about 50 years, I think, but the spec. of the plug has been
upgraded over the years, including increased creepage-and-clearance distances, and adding the insulation to
the pins, as people have said.

The only electrical item in a UK house that *must* comply with a British Standard is the plug - if it fits
into a UK socket but doesn't comply with BS1363 then you can't import or sell it (a former girlfriend works
for the BSI - I've picked up all sorts of interesting information! :-)  They get to do all sorts of exciting
things like disabling all the safety devices on an appliance and seeing what happens in an overload/overheat
situation.

I've had about 4 mains shocks so 240V doesn't always kill you (Duh!) but others haven't been so lucky.  I know
of three people who didn't survive (one colleague, two relatives of people I know), so I have a healthy
respect for it and always double-check anything potentially alive before I touch it, and if it's something
like house wiring I always tap it first even though I know I've turned off the main switch, just in case...

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England

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2004\08\21@055337 by Russell McMahon

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> I've had about 4 mains shocks so 240V doesn't always kill you (Duh!) but
others haven't been so lucky.  I know
> of three people who didn't survive (one colleague, two relatives of people
I know), so I have a healthy
> respect for it and always double-check anything potentially alive before I
touch it, and if it's something
> like house wiring I always tap it first even though I know I've turned off
the main switch, just in case...

I've had many mains shocks one way or the other - probably 10 - 20 ???
(Nominally 230 V here)
Quite variable in magnitude depending on path in and out. Some a tickle and
some a nasty belt.
BUT none for many years.
But some people die on their *first* 230V shock.

I don't think I was THAT careless - just led a varied and frenetic life *

Circumstances of most now faded with time - selective memory.
One I recall.
Vero card cage. Power supply module. Empty slot next to power supply. PSU
module tight in cage - wouldn't easily extract with handle. Grab from panel
by inserting fingers in adjacent slot and curving fingers and pulling on
panel and. Whoops!!!!!. The fuse insulation wasn't complete (maybe non
existent). Fingers wrapped over mains while holding earthed metal with same
hand. Interesting.

NEVER believe that the power is off. Even when the switch is off and the
fuse is out. (Especially so if you didn't wire it yourself). I have been
standing on a stool working on a light in such a situation and felt the heat
on my face as the mains toasts the wiring in my hands. No shock though.
(About 30 years ago). I ALWAYS short phase and neutral together once they
are allegedly "dead". They usually are. Usually.

Quite why I would steady a screwdriver on a chassis edge and then poke the
tip onto a tagstrip tag with phase it on I could never work out afterwards.
Chassis edge burned and screwdriver was left welded to still live tag. No
shock. That was a very very very long time ago.




   RM

* I am generally much more careful about my life in many ways now - even
crossing the road is generally a conscious act rather than "just part of
walking". If one is going to live to 120 years old one needs to be at least
a little careful :-).

I never stand between parked cars while someone starts the rear one. I have
had someone almost crush me by starting a car in gear as I walked between
cars. Not again.

I almost never walk between parked cars if one is running. Same as above.

Crossings - look continually and actively at approaching and stopped
drivers. People die on crossings every year due to driver stupidity (quite
apart from pedestrian stupidity).

Y' gonna die one way or other. May as well be sensibly :-)

.

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2004\08\21@082237 by John Ferrell

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In my 30 years with IBM (most in the field) I lost several screwdrivers that
way. I felt they were well spent. I took a lot of criticism from management
over the process but none from my peers. 400 cycle power is especially
dramatic.
Every time the electrician assured  me all power was removed.

John Ferrell
http://DixieNC.US

{Original Message removed}

2004\08\21@115621 by Randy Abernathy

picon face
In a message dated 8/21/2004 8:24:14 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
@spam@johnferrellspamspamKILLspamEARTHLINK.NET writes:

Every  time the electrician assured  me all power was  removed


The one thing I have learned over the years is to NEVER trust anyone  else
when it comes to making certain the power is OFF.  Always check it  yourself.  I
sometimes have to work on equipment that is 600 V three phase,  old textile
mills that have been converted to wood working factories and Canada  where that
is the normal three phase power in factories.  You only get bit  once with
that and after that it is rare you will EVER get another opportunity  to correct
the mistake again.



Randy  Abernathy
4626 Old Stilesboro Road NW
Acworth, GA 30101-4066
Phone /  Fax: 770-974-5295
Mobile: 678-772-4113
E-mail:  spamBeGonecnc002RemoveMEspamEraseMEaol.com

I furnish technical support, repair, and other  related services for your
industrial woodworking machinery. My background as  Senior Service Engineer for
the SCMI Group for nearly fifteen years with factory  training, combines with
my extensive background in electronics, mechanics,  pneumatics, electrical and
CNC machinery to offer you needed support for your  machinery.

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2004\08\21@120035 by Randy Abernathy

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In a message dated 8/21/2004 5:54:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
RemoveMEapptechKILLspamspamRemoveMEPARADISE.NET.NZ writes:

I've had  many mains shocks one way or the other - probably 10 - 20 ???
(Nominally  230 V here)


And if you are like most of us that have had a few shocks it was when you
were touching a grounded surface, etc. so we only got about half of the 240, of
course there have been exceptions, in my case, to that and, depending upon
where  you get the shock on your body the result can be fatal or not.

A shock of any kind isn't exactly something to want :-)




Randy  Abernathy
4626 Old Stilesboro Road NW
Acworth, GA 30101-4066
Phone /  Fax: 770-974-5295
Mobile: 678-772-4113
E-mail:  TakeThisOuTcnc002spamaol.com

I furnish technical support, repair, and other  related services for your
industrial woodworking machinery. My background as  Senior Service Engineer for
the SCMI Group for nearly fifteen years with factory  training, combines with
my extensive background in electronics, mechanics,  pneumatics, electrical and
CNC machinery to offer you needed support for your  machinery.

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2004\08\21@120243 by Randy Abernathy

picon face
In a message dated 8/21/2004 5:19:02 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
spamBeGoneHDRWKILLspamspamTakeThisOuTH2ORG.DEMON.CO.UK writes:

They get  to do all sorts of exciting
things like disabling all the safety devices on  an appliance and seeing what
happens in an  overload/overheat
situation.



Sounds like our Underwriters Laboratory over here.  That is what  they get to
do as well.

Regards,



Randy  Abernathy
4626 Old Stilesboro Road NW
Acworth, GA 30101-4066
Phone /  Fax: 770-974-5295
Mobile: 678-772-4113
E-mail:  EraseMEcnc002.....spamKILLspamaol.com

I furnish technical support, repair, and other  related services for your
industrial woodworking machinery. My background as  Senior Service Engineer for
the SCMI Group for nearly fifteen years with factory  training, combines with
my extensive background in electronics, mechanics,  pneumatics, electrical and
CNC machinery to offer you needed support for your  machinery.

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2004\08\22@032315 by Russell McMahon

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flavicon
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> And if you are like most of us that have had a few shocks it was when you
> were touching a grounded surface, etc. so we only got about half of the
240, of
> course there have been exceptions, in my case, to that and, depending upon
> where  you get the shock on your body the result can be fatal or not.


Here we have 230v phase to ground - so we get all of it :-)
Phase to phase here is 400v !

I assume you were referring to phase-phase in a 110v/phases system which
gives about 200 volts


       RM

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2004\08\22@153607 by Randy Abernathy

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In a message dated 8/22/2004 3:24:45 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
apptechSTOPspamspamPARADISE.NET.NZ writes:

Here we  have 230v phase to ground - so we get all of it :-)
Phase to phase here is  400v !



A good reason for VERY strict safety codes then.


Randy  Abernathy
4626 Old Stilesboro Road NW
Acworth, GA 30101-4066
Phone /  Fax: 770-974-5295
Mobile: 678-772-4113
E-mail:  cnc002STOPspamspamKILLspamaol.com

I furnish technical support, repair, and other  related services for your
industrial woodworking machinery. My background as  Senior Service Engineer for
the SCMI Group for nearly fifteen years with factory  training, combines with
my extensive background in electronics, mechanics,  pneumatics, electrical and
CNC machinery to offer you needed support for your  machinery.

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2004\08\23@121616 by Lawrence Lile

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> NEVER believe that the power is off. Even when the switch is off and the
> fuse is out. (Especially so if you didn't wire it yourself). I have been
> standing on a stool working on a light in such a situation and felt the
> heat


A guy I knew died when working on power in an old building.  He turned off the mains, crawled under the crawl space in the mud, and snipped a wire that was live, not shut off by the main, illegally wired.  Probably didn't know what hit him.  
Those little electricians lights that can sense a live wire through the insulation are a really good thing to carry around.
--Lawrence Lile


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2004\08\23@134434 by 4HAZ

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----- From: "Lawrence Lile" <llile@

> NEVER believe that the power is off. Even when the switch is off and the
> fuse is out. (Especially so if you didn't wire it yourself). I have been
> standing on a stool working on a light in such a situation and felt the
> heat

The saying the power company uses is "Not Grounded Not Dead", when a high
tension line is cut an adjacent line can act as a 1:1 transformer inducing
ten or hundreds of Kv into the "open" circuit.

A common practice in (secondary side) electrical work is to short the line
before working on it, this trips the breaker. It also makes it easy to find
the correct breaker. I often put a warning sticker across the breaker panel
door to prevent someone from opening the door and re-setting the breaker,
then go to the circuit I will be working on and short it out tripping the
breaker.

KF4HAZ - Lonnie

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