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PICList Thread
'[OT] Re: CAD electronic software'
1997\08\28@122520 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
[first, re the OT discussion: how about "[OT]", to avoid confusing with
some 'real' subject with OT in it?]


At 10:52 PM 28-08-97 +0000, Mike Smith wrote:
>> I didn't think copying software was criminally illegal. ie: You can
>> be sued for copying it, but not charged with a criminal offense such
>> as theft. If I'm right (which is open to debate) then comparing it
>> to the theft of a car isn't appropriate.
>
>Morally equivalent.  Whether its a criminal or legal case would
>depend on the jurisdiction.

where do you take your 'moral equivalence' from? do you want to say that
the law is imoral (making a difference where 'morally' there is none)? is
it then 'moral' to obey to an 'imoral' law? one has to be careful on these
slippery slopes of 'moral'... (BTW, 'morals' has been one of the most
(ab)used excuses for almost _any_thing.)


{Quote hidden}

are you _sure_ that nobody at home is listening to your CD while you're
listening to your copied tape? (you've got no 'network' license for your
music...)

>> Or went to the library and photocopied a specs sheet, or had one
>> faxed, when it should have been purchased.
>
>Crazy example.  Most manufacturers are *happy* for you to have their
>data, and will give you the books, CD's etc.  Do you feel guilty
>downloading pdf files?

I just had a look at a Motorola databook, and the only thing I saw was a
copyright notice "All rights reserved". Which, according to my
understanding of copyright, means that it is illegal to copy it unless you
have the permission of the copyright owner. Am I wrong here?

A different issue is that you assume they allow you to do so, and that they
are even happy that you do so, because it spreads the knowledge about their
products. Similarily someone could argue that one of the reasons for the
rise of Microsoft was that their software was probably among the most
copied ever, and so it's reasonable to ssume that every software
manufacturer wants to have the same success, and so all are happy to having
their software copied...

>For some purposes, photocopying copyrighted material is allowed.

yes, but probably not for business use.

>Most libraries have a sign describing 'Fair Dealing'

'fair'??

Ge

1997\08\28@143728 by Rob

flavicon
face
On Thu, 28 Aug 1997, Gerhard Fiedler wrote:

> [first, re the OT discussion: how about "[OT]", to avoid confusing with
> some 'real' subject with OT in it?]

I was thinking the same.  I will experiment tonight with the OT filter
using Eudora 3.0.  If it has a problem with embedded letters we can use
brackets.

Right now i am thinking we can have the choice of using Off Topic or [OT]

I am glad to see the cooperation :)

Rob

1997\08\31@054048 by mike

flavicon
picon face
In message  <spam_OUT3.0.32.19970829112836.00697eecTakeThisOuTspampop5.ibm.net> .....PICLISTKILLspamspam@spam@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
writes:
> At 12:05 PM 29-08-97 +0000, Mike Smith wrote:
> >No, I wasn't making a case for the morality or otherwise of the law,
> >although a case could be made that the law as it is today is immoral,
> >with the side with the most expensive legal team having a better
> >chance of winning, rather than the case being determined purely on
> >judicial terms.
>
> again the (unanswered) question: if 'moral' and 'legal' by your definition
> are obviously not the same, where do you take your definition for 'moral'
> from? ('legal' is more or less defined -- at least that's what the courts
> try to do :-)
>

'Moral' and 'legal' are different. There are things that it is legal
to do which are immoral (in my opinion).

For example, adultery, legal, but in my opinion immoral.

There are many sources of what is considered to be moral - peer groups
define a group morality, tv and radio affect the perceived morality
of a society, books, newspapers, all have an influence on this.
Parental input helps to define a childs moral outlook as do their
teachers - which is why I am careful to choose a school for my
children which has the same (or at least similar) philosophy of
life to my own.

As for a complete definition of morality - The Bible has to be up there
near the top of the list - the only problem is it sets high standards which
are often at variance with modern society, so what is required seems so
un-attainable, which is why mercy and grace were put in there.

Preach mode off.


Regards,

Mike Watson

1997\08\31@072944 by paulb

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Sean Breheny wrote:

> I think that you are right that most HTML code on the Internet is
> copyrighted.  However, this copyright is intended to prevent re-
> publishing the HTML code, not saving it for your own use.

 Is it even intended, or *realistically* expected to do that?  Are Web
publishers likely to object to the generation of a (de-facto) mirror
site?  Other, that is, than the possibility that such a mirror site will
not represent the latest version?  Most publishers on the Web, because
access is free, would expect the prime function of copyright to be to
ensure that what is purported to be their work is indeed so, and that
others' purported work does not contain theirs without due agreement.
They are not (necessarily) demanding payment, but their good name.

 Certainly, links if not file copies are universally acceptable.  It is
*expected* that browsers (people) are sufficiently competent to "strip
back" link addresses to locate the owner even if "home" vectors are not
contained in every page.

> It probably even would allow you to transfer your saved copy to a
> friend because that action would be the same as that friend just going
> to the URL and getting his own copy.

 Perfectly reasonable, albeit impossible to police anyway.  It
certainly is a funny beastie, this Internet.

 Cheers,
       Paul B.


'[OT] HPGL translator/converter'
1997\09\03@035714 by David BALDWIN
flavicon
face
Highly out of topic!

       Hi,

       I am looking for hpgl/2 to hpgl/1 translator. Anybody heard about it?

'[OT] - Another one bites the dust!'
1997\09\03@044357 by mikesmith_oz

flavicon
face
------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
Date:          Tue, 2 Sep 1997 15:15:57 -0500
To:            mikesmith_ozspamKILLspamrelaymail.net
From:          Abuse <.....abuseKILLspamspam.....tripod.com>
Subject:       Re: Spam from your user?

{Quote hidden}

<snipt>

>> Received: from EraseMElarryjnspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTjuno.com by  (8.8.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id

<snipt>

>> Hope you had a wonderful Labor Day Holiday!  Realizing you have to

<snipt>
{Quote hidden}

Thank you for your concern and for bringing this to our attention. The
page that was listed in the message is no longer being served by
Tripod.

I wanted to clarify that the creator of that page was in no way
directly associated with Tripod, Inc. Tripod does not exercise any
editorial control over what our members place on their pages, nor
their other Internet related activities such mailings or newsgroup
postings.

Tripod does, to the best of our ability, delete pages that blatantly
violate common "Netiquette" as we are made aware of them.

I apologize for any inconvenience you have experienced. If you have
any further questions or comments please do not hesitate to contact
me.

Sincerely,

Jason Macauley
Membership Dept.


=========================

Well, it zapped one of the pages - cyber-action.com looks like a spam
domain to me, so I complained to their upstream provider.
MikeS
<mikesmith_ozspamspam_OUTrelaymail.net>

'[OT] HPGL translator/converter -Reply'
1997\09\03@060058 by Chee Foon Tiang

flavicon
face
Not really the solution.... but you can use the HP7475 printer driver to
generate hpgl/1.

I was looking for hpgl/2 to hpgl/1 translator some while ago for our
legacy Versatec 32" plotter but did'nt find any.
But finally found the solution in a PostScript level 1 to hpgl/1 translator.

Regards,
Peter Tiang
@spam@tiangcfoonKILLspamspamhitachi.com.my

==============================================================================

>>> David BALDWIN <KILLspamdbKILLspamspamSDM.BEL.ALCATEL.BE> 3/September/1997 03:57pm >>>
Highly out of topic!

       Hi,

       I am looking for hpgl/2 to hpgl/1 translator. Anybody heard about it?

1997\09\03@061346 by David BALDWIN

flavicon
face
Chee Foon Tiang wrote:
{Quote hidden}

       Do you think I can find Win95 driver for it?
--

 _____________
 \           /               David BALDWIN
  \ ALCATEL /               Design engineer
   \TELECOM/
    \     /         SdM (Societe de Microelectronique)
     \   /
      \ /      B.P. 4205            Phone : +32 (0)71 442932
       V       B-6000 Charleroi     Fax   : +32 (0)71 442905
               (Belgium)            TakeThisOuTbaldwinEraseMEspamspam_OUTetca.alcatel.be

'[OT] HPGL translator/converter -Reply -Reply'
1997\09\03@063031 by Chee Foon Tiang

flavicon
face
>>> David BALDWIN <RemoveMEdbspamTakeThisOuTSDM.BEL.ALCATEL.BE> 3/September/1997 06:13pm >>>
<snipped>
>>
>> Not really the solution.... but you can use the HP7475 printer driver to
>> generate hpgl/1.
>>
>
>        Do you think I can find Win95 driver for it?

Yes, the HP7475 printer driver is a standard driver included in the
Win95 installation CD.

Click on Control Panel->Printers->Add Printers....

Regards,
Peter Tiang
tiangcfoonEraseMEspam.....hitachi.com.my

1997\09\03@085452 by Sten Dahlgren

flavicon
face
Maybe this url has a solution to your problem.

http://www.rsi-inc.com

/Sten

1997\09\04@040730 by David BALDWIN

flavicon
face
Sten Dahlgren wrote:
>
> Maybe this url has a solution to your problem.
>
> http://www.rsi-inc.com
>
> /Sten

       Thanks, this is the 1000th f* site I visit and the first I found
something interesting.
--

 _____________
 \           /               David BALDWIN
  \ ALCATEL /               Design engineer
   \TELECOM/
    \     /         SdM (Societe de Microelectronique)
     \   /
      \ /      B.P. 4205            Phone : +32 (0)71 442932
       V       B-6000 Charleroi     Fax   : +32 (0)71 442905
               (Belgium)            EraseMEbaldwinspametca.alcatel.be

'[OT] Re: Correct LIST?'
1997\09\04@224846 by NSON,Peter(PR0087)

flavicon
face
iNTERESTING.  tHIS iS tHE sAME aDDRESS tHAT aLL oF mIGUEL'S mAIL cOMES
fROM, bUT tHE uRL lOOKS nORMAL.  pERHAPS tHEY aRE dOING iT
iNTENTIONALLY.

PJR
Peter Robinson
Canberra Australia
----------
From: Martin R. Green
To: RemoveMEPICLISTEraseMEspamEraseMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: Correct LIST?
Date: Friday, 5 September 1997 11:11AM


My God!!!

It's contagious!

Martin R. Green
RemoveMEelimarspam_OUTspamKILLspambigfoot.com

----------
From:   WF AUTOMACAO [SMTP:RemoveMEwfTakeThisOuTspamspamAMBIENTE.COM.BR]
Sent:   Friday, September 05, 1997 12:55 AM
To:     EraseMEPICLISTspamspamspamBeGonemitvma.mit.edu
Subject:        Correct LIST?

sORRY!

       i'M nOT aT cORRECT lIST, bUT i kNOW tHAT mANY pEOPLE wILL rEAD
tHIS
e-MAIL!

       sEE hOW tO sTUDY mICROCONTROLLERS rEMOTLY!

       http://www.inf.ufsc.br/~jbosco/labvir.htm

       oUR pROJECT in uNIVERSITY!

       mAW

1997\09\04@230930 by Ross McKenzie

flavicon
face
At 12:48 PM 9/5/97 +1000, you wrote:
>iNTERESTING.  tHIS iS tHE sAME aDDRESS tHAT aLL oF mIGUEL'S mAIL cOMES
>fROM, bUT tHE uRL lOOKS nORMAL.  pERHAPS tHEY aRE dOING iT
>iNTENTIONALLY.
>
>PJR
>Peter Robinson
>Canberra Australia
> ----------
>From: Martin R. Green
>To: RemoveMEPICLISTKILLspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
>Subject: Re: Correct LIST?
>Date: Friday, 5 September 1997 11:11AM
>
>
>My God!!!
>
>It's contagious!

Stop it. Weren't you ever told it will make you go blind <g>.

Seriously; can we stop this now?




Regards,

Ross McKenzie
Melbourne Australia

to reply by email remove the "nospam." text from my email address

1997\09\05@021541 by mikesmith_oz

flavicon
face
On  5 Sep 97 at 12:57, Ross McKenzie wrote:

{Quote hidden}

eR, sTOP wHAT?

<sNICKER>

There is a solution, folks.  Use MS Word 97 as your mailer program,
and there a cute little feature that turns tHIS into This.  Its
'orribly slow and clunky though.
MikeS
<spamBeGonemikesmith_ozSTOPspamspamEraseMErelaymail.net>

'[OT] Donations for mIGUEL'S keyboard'
1997\09\05@130408 by Steve Smith

picon face
I propose that a small fund is established to purchase mIGUEL a keybord which
has both of the shift keys removed at least I could then read his posts
without straining both eyes and brain trying to unscramble this ecentric mix
of upper and lower case strings.

To this end I propose a donation of one pound (English) to commence the fund.

If everone on the list donates a small ammount we can send him a large box of
functional keyboards.

The early evening musings of a scrambled mind
Steve.....

1997\09\05@205525 by Engineering Department

flavicon
face
< From: Steve Smith >
> I propose that a small fund is established to purchase mIGUEL a keybord
which
>  has both of the shift keys removed at least I could then read his posts
> without straining both eyes and brain trying to unscramble this ecentric
mix
> of upper and lower case strings.
>
> To this end I propose a donation of one pound (English) to commence the
fund.
>
> If everone on the list donates a small ammount we can send him a large
box of
> functional keyboards.
>

Good idea,

I'll donate US$5 and at least four semi functioning AT
keyboards just to find out why that was happening.

ChEeRs,

Win Wiencke
KILLspamImageLogicspamBeGonespamibm.net

1997\09\05@211449 by Michael Coop (pjm)

flavicon
face
Steve smith is really "mIgUeL" in disguise.

He is now relaxing on an island in the tropics with $400K and a box of
keyboards.

                                       ....at last a new form of net scam !



< From: Steve Smith >
> I propose that a small fund is established to purchase mIGUEL a keybord
which
>  has both of the shift keys removed at least I could then read his posts
> without straining both eyes and brain trying to unscramble this ecentric
mix
> of upper and lower case strings.
>
> To this end I propose a donation of one pound (English) to commence the
fund.
>
> If everone on the list donates a small ammount we can send him a large
box of
> functional keyboards.
>

1997\09\06@013421 by Lee Jones

flavicon
face
> If everone on the list donates a small ammount we can send
> [Miguel] a large box of functional keyboards.

According to the PC standard, his keyboard _is_ functional.

The keyboard has a latching "caps lock" key.  And it has a
non-latching "up shift" key.  When neither is down, letters
are entered in lower case.  When either is down, letters are
in upper case.

On a type writer or a real computer, it's a logical OR
function.  When both are down (shift lock OR up shift
OR both), letter keys generate capitols.  This is what
people expect.

On the PC, it's a logical XOR function.  When both are
down (caps lock AND up shift), pressing a letter key
gets you a lower case letter.  I have always considered
this a bug (not a feature) in the PC keyboard driver.

                                               Lee Jones

'[oT]'
1997\09\06@013627 by David Duffy

flavicon
picon face
> rEGARDS.  Sorry... cOuLdN't hElP mYsElF !! (Yeah, I've been told
> already !)
>

rEAlLY? WhO TOlD YoU??
MikeS
<EraseMEmikesmith_ozspamEraseMErelaymail.net>

eVeRyOnE !

'[OT] SMT soldering'
1997\09\06@092935 by Andrew Russell Morris

picon face
I like [OT} discussions on the piclist, if they are things that other
PIC'ers would find interesting and don't become excessive. I get a lot of
valuable information that way. I don't have time to subscribe to other
lists. I am currently working on a project for a client which is my first
PIC project and I'm doing well with it. I think an [OT] discussion on the
piclist helped me solve a problem that is indirectly related to PIC's. My
project is currently in a breadboard state, wired with through-hole parts
on perfboard. The pre-production prototypes and the production units will
be SMT (Surface Mount Technology). I wondered how I would solder those tiny
parts onto the circuit board as that would be very difficult for me.
Through reading an [OT] thread on the piclist, I plan, when I get that far,
to buy a toaster oven, a temperature controller and a syringe of solder
paste.

One question: If I end up having to solder parts onto both sides of the
board, how do I keep the ones on the bottom from falling off? Are all SMT
parts the same height, so that the oven tray will hold them in place until
they cool off? Any suggestions are welcome.

1997\09\06@102956 by John Payson

picon face
> One question: If I end up having to solder parts onto both sides of the
> board, how do I keep the ones on the bottom from falling off? Are all SMT
> parts the same height, so that the oven tray will hold them in place until
> they cool off? Any suggestions are welcome.

Glue [or other similar adhesive].  Actually it's recommended for the parts
on both sides of the board, since otherwise parts might move slightly when
the board is put into or removed from the oven.

'[OT] Re: SMT soldering'
1997\09\06@104214 by Sean Breheny

face picon face
At 09:29 AM 9/6/97 -0400, you wrote:
> The pre-production prototypes and the production units will
>be SMT (Surface Mount Technology). I wondered how I would solder those tiny
>parts onto the circuit board as that would be very difficult for me.
>Through reading an [OT] thread on the piclist, I plan, when I get that far,
>to buy a toaster oven, a temperature controller and a syringe of solder
>paste.

I have been folowing this thread on SMT soldering using a toaster oven and
it fascinates me. I do non-SMT soldering, of course, but I have never done
surface mount soldering. It sounds like this hybrid toaster over machine is
just going to flow solder over the board and let it stick only to the
traces and component leads. Is this correct? If so, is it going to actually
FLOW the solder over the board or will the board just sit in a pool of
molten solder(doesn't sound too good for the components!!)??
       If it is going to keep the solder moving, then how?
I am just generally interested in how this thing will work. Also, if there
will be through hole components on the boars also, do they have to be
soldered after the SMT or can they also be soldered at the same time as the
SMT?

Thanks,

Sean

Sean Breheny,KA3YXM
Electrical Engineering Student

'[OT] SMT soldering'
1997\09\06@131616 by Mike Keitz

picon face
On Sat, 6 Sep 1997 10:40:54 -0400 Sean Breheny <@spam@shb7@spam@spamspam_OUTCORNELL.EDU> writes:
>At 09:29 AM 9/6/97 -0400, you wrote:
>> The pre-production prototypes and the production units will
>>be SMT (Surface Mount Technology). I wondered how I would solder
>those tiny
>>parts onto the circuit board as that would be very difficult for me.
>>Through reading an [OT] thread on the piclist, I plan, when I get
>that far,
>>to buy a toaster oven, a temperature controller and a syringe of
>solder
>>paste.

If your hands are steady and your eyesight reasonably acute, you can
solder typical "coarse" SMT parts such as SOICs, 1206 and 0805 chip
parts, SOT-23 transistors, etc. one at a time by hand using conventional
soldering techniques.  I haven't tried it and probably would not
reccomend it for parts with lead spacing smaller than .04" like QFPs,
etc.

The minimum and usually adequate equipment includes: a pencil soldering
iron with a reasonably small tip (1/16 or 3/32 chisel), a roll of
small-diameter wire solder, a pair of tweezers, and some desoldering
braid.  Liquid rosin flux and a magnifying glass are also useful
sometimes.  If the board or parts have become a little corroded, apply
liquid flux to all the pads so they will take solder readily.

For chip components, first put a little blob of solder on one of the
pads.  Pick up the component with tweezers and slide it in position while
remelting the blob of solder.  Then solder the other end down.  Don't use
too much solder, manufacturers advise that getting solder up over the top
of a chip component can make it unreliabale.  If there are a lot of chip
components all facing the same direction, you can streamline the process,
first blob one end of each component, then place the components, then
turn the board around and solder the other ends.  With a little practice,
SMT resistors and capacitors can be installed a lot faster than thru-hole
ones.

To remove chip components, the best technique is to use two soldering
irons to melt both ends at once and lift the component away, Clean all
the solder from one end using solder braid, leaving the other end
"blobbed" to install the replacement component.  Advice is not to reuse
parts that have been removed.  You'll probably lose them in the carpet
anyway.

The technique for SOT transistors and other 3-legged beasties is the same
as chip components, only there are two small pads on one side.  Blob the
collector pad and tack the part down, then carefully solder the other 2.
Use only a small amount of solder so they don't bridge.  If they do end
up bridged, remove the excess with solder braid.

For ICs, blob one corner pad and tack the part down so the other pins
line up.  Double-check that it is the right IC and in the right
orientation.  Solder the other corner lead down.  Using an absolute
minimum of solder, solder the rest of the leads.  It may appear that the
soldering iron tip is too large.  Actually it is OK to touch and melt
more than one pin at a time as long as there isn't enough solder around
to bridge them.  The important thing to control is the quantity of
solder.  Clean the iron tip frequently on a sponge so it doesn't
accumulate a blob of solder.  Think of the soldering iron as a source of
heat, not a device that applies solder.

Solder paste helps to speed up the process by making it easy to apply a
small controlled amount of solder.  Apply a thin line of solder paste
under each row of pins before setting the chip down, then mash away with
the soldering iron to melt it 2 or 3 pins at a time.  Buy solder paste in
small quantities.  It is perishable and will become useless after about 6
months.

PLCC chips are similar, but a lot harder to keep the solder from bridging
under the chip.  After soldering, test all adjacent pins with an ohmmeter
and if any shorts are found use desolder braid to pull some of the excess
out from under the chip.

Removal of ICs is difficult.  Start by using solder braid to remove as
much solder as possible.  If the IC is under 20 pins it may be possible
to use two soldering irons and braid to distribute the heat to melt all
the pins free at once.  If not, heat each pin and use a dental pick or
large sewing needle to bend it slightly so it is clear of the board.
When the part is off, clean the remaining little bumps of solder off the
pads.

There is a kit inclucing a bismuth alloy to form a low melting mess of
all the solder, so it will stay melted on all the pins and the IC can be
removed.  I haven't tried it.
{Quote hidden}

Commercial SMT assembly uses a metal mask to screen solder paste onto the
pads to be soldered (Solder paste is a mixture of fine particles of
solder and flux).  Then the parts are set onto the board with their leads
pushed down into the solder paste.  The reflow oven applies a dry heat to
melt the solder paste and cause it to reflow onto the parts.  The flux is
washed off.

>        If it is going to keep the solder moving, then how?
>I am just generally interested in how this thing will work. Also, if
>there
>will be through hole components on the boars also, do they have to be
>soldered after the SMT or can they also be soldered at the same time
>as the
>SMT?

This is another technique, the SMT parts are glued in place to the solder
side of the board, the thru-hole parts placed, and the board goes through
a conventional soldering machine.  The components do indeed "sit in a
pool of molten solder."  They are designed to withstand it.

'[OT] Pinout for LCD'
1997\09\06@175304 by ags

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face
I just picked up what MAY have been a great deal at the local surplus store.

However, I have been unable to figure out the pinout and I am hoping someone on
this list can help me
out.
There are 10 pins.

The Module says:
Optrex
PWB633A-V0

but somewhere else it says
MDK311V-0

(The 0's may be Os)

On the back are 7 HD61100A chips? (I assume some sort of LCD driver chip)

Thanks to anyone that can help!

--Alan
+---------------------------------------------------------
| Alan G. Smith
| spamBeGoneagsspamKILLspampoboxes.com
| http://www.innovatus.com/ags

'[OT] help finding chip'
1997\09\06@220730 by Rick Trostel

picon face
Does anyone know of a chip manufacturer that makes a RS-232 to RS-485
converter
chip?

Thanks .............. Rich

1997\09\07@022930 by Steve Smith

picon face
Try MAXIM they do all maner of protocol converters or use a MAX232 + LTC485
this does 232 to TTL then TTL to 485 and not very expensive.

Another thaught We buy a PLC from Cuttler Hammer in the UK but its made by
Samsung and supplied with the software is a RS232 / RS485 converter in one of
those tiny boxes that takes just two 9 pin D type connecters about 25mm *
12mm not entirly sure what configuration it is but it does contain both of
the above chips and is line powered.

Cheers Steve.....

'[OT] SMT soldering'
1997\09\07@112336 by Eric van Es

flavicon
face
Mike Keitz wrote:
>
> Removal of ICs is difficult.  Start by using solder braid to remove as
> much solder as possible.  If the IC is under 20 pins it may be possible
> to use two soldering irons and braid to distribute the heat to melt all
> the pins free at once.  If not, heat each pin and use a dental pick or
> large sewing needle to bend it slightly so it is clear of the board.
> When the part is off, clean the remaining little bumps of solder off the
> pads.

Good advice Mike! I actually enjoyed reading a rather long mail!

I once spoke to a guy who had to desolder and solder smt componenets
without the special equipment for the componenets. Apparently you get a
soldering iron tip that fit over an ic, ie one for 20, 40 pin etc.
Only very expensive....

He ended up using a scalpel to lift the IC's from their pads. It sounded
like it worked pretty good.

Cheers!
--
Eric van Es               | Cape Town, South Africa
.....vanesspam_OUTspamilink.nis.za | http://www.nis.za/~vanes
LOOKING FOR TEMPORARY / HOLIDAY ACCOMODATION?
http://www.nis.za/~vanes/accom.htm

'[OT] help finding chip'
1997\09\07@135143 by WF AUTOMA‚̀O

flavicon
face
Rick Trostel wrote:
>
> Does anyone know of a chip manufacturer that makes a RS-232 to RS-485
> converter
> chip?
>
> Thanks .............. Rich

tHERE aRE mANY! rECENTLY i bOUGHT oNE wITH R.E SMITH
tHE nUMBER iS 001-513-874-4796     aND tHE fAX iS 001-513-874-1236
pRICW: oNLY u$49,00

hUMMM, tRY tOO THE iNTEGRITY iNSTRUMENTS. fOR tHEN, i hAVE THE wWW

wWW.iNTEGRITYUSA.cOM

gOOD lUCK!

fROM yOUR fRIEND

mIGUEL aLEXANDRE wISINTAINER
                                                 2
pS: tRY Www.Mcc-us.Com, iF yOU wANT to lARN The I  C  pROTOCOL fOR "pic"!

'[OT] SMT soldering'
1997\09\07@193930 by fastfwd

face
flavicon
face
Mike Keitz wrote:

> > Removal of ICs is difficult.  Start by using solder braid to remove as
> > much solder as possible.  If the IC is under 20 pins it may be possible
> > to use two soldering irons and braid to distribute the heat to melt all
> > the pins free at once.  If not, heat each pin and use a dental pick or
> > large sewing needle to bend it slightly so it is clear of the board.
> > When the part is off, clean the remaining little bumps of solder off the
> > pads.

and Eric van Es <TakeThisOuTPICLIST.....spamTakeThisOuTMITVMA.MIT.EDU> replied:

> I once spoke to a guy who had to desolder and solder smt componenets
> without the special equipment for the componenets. Apparently you
> get a soldering iron tip that fit over an ic, ie one for 20, 40 pin
> etc. Only very expensive....
>
> He ended up using a scalpel to lift the IC's from their pads. It
> sounded like it worked pretty good.

Guys:

Here's another way that often works better AND doesn't bend the IC
leads (a necessary requirement if, for instance, you're removing a
surface-mount PIC for the purpose of putting it in a programmer and
verifying its contents):

   1.  DON'T use solder braid to "remove as much solder as
       possible".  Instead, ADD solder:  Lay down a thick bridge of
       solder across all the leads on each side of the IC.

   2.  Turn the board upside-down.  Gravity is your friend.

   3.  Heat the leads on one side of the IC a little, then heat the
       leads on the other side.  Switch back and forth between the
       two sides, heating each a little at a time, until both sides
       melt more-or-les simultaneously.

   4.  The IC will drop off the board onto your bench.  The force of
       the impact will knock nearly all the molten solder off the
       IC's leads... The small amount that remains can be removed
       with solder braid.

If the chip is glued to the board, of course, you'll need to break
the adhesive bond... A dental pick or small screwdriver GENTLY wedged
under one side of the chip (AFTER the solder is melted) will snap
the chip free from the board without bending the leads.

-Andy

P.S.  Wear safety glasses.

=== Andrew Warren - TakeThisOuTfastfwdKILLspamspamspamix.netcom.com
=== Fast Forward Engineering - Vista, California
=== http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/2499

=== For PICLIST help (including "unsubscribe" instructions),
=== put the single word "help" in the body of a message and
=== send it to: .....listservspamRemoveMEmitvma.mit.edu

'[OT] metaphysical wanderings'
1997\09\07@221654 by Andrew G Williams

picon face
>Roger Penrose is an eminent British mathematician who has written a
>book, The Emperor's New Mind (concerning computers, minds, and the laws
>of physics), attacking the idea that computers will ever achieve
>consciousness. It's well worth reading.

And don't forget the sequel "Shadows Of The Mind" (1994), which corrects some
shortcomings of the original and answers many criticisms.

He was also responsible for working out the details of Black Hole theory with
some bloke called Hawking through 1965-1970.

Cheers,  Andy.

'[OT] SMT soldering'
1997\09\08@010215 by tjaart

flavicon
face
Mike Keitz wrote:

> If your hands are steady and your eyesight reasonably acute, you can
> solder typical "coarse" SMT parts such as SOICs, 1206 and 0805 chip
> parts, SOT-23 transistors, etc. one at a time by hand using conventional
> soldering techniques.  I haven't tried it and probably would not
> reccomend it for parts with lead spacing smaller than .04" like QFPs,
> etc.

There is a way... You can solder any SMD IC like this:
1) Solder (sOLDER for mIGUEL) two opposite pins onto the pads to lock
the
  IC into place.
2) Wet all the pins with flux to ensure good joints (not the Jamaican
  type, man).
3) Roll a big blob of solder to and fro accross the pins.
4) Clear all the bridges with solder braid

> The minimum and usually adequate equipment includes: a pencil soldering
> iron with a reasonably small tip (1/16 or 3/32 chisel), a roll of
> small-diameter wire solder, a pair of tweezers, and some desoldering
> braid.  Liquid rosin flux and a magnifying glass are also useful
> sometimes.  If the board or parts have become a little corroded, apply
> liquid flux to all the pads so they will take solder readily.

If you use the above method, you don't even need any special tips. (You
should see mine...)

{Quote hidden}

I fully agree here...

> To remove chip components, the best technique is to use two soldering
> irons to melt both ends at once and lift the component away, Clean all
> the solder from one end using solder braid, leaving the other end
> "blobbed" to install the replacement component.  Advice is not to reuse
> parts that have been removed.  You'll probably lose them in the carpet
> anyway.

And here...

>
> Removal of ICs is difficult.  Start by using solder braid to remove as
> much solder as possible.  If the IC is under 20 pins it may be possible
> to use two soldering irons and braid to distribute the heat to melt all
> the pins free at once.  If not, heat each pin and use a dental pick or
> large sewing needle to bend it slightly so it is clear of the board.
> When the part is off, clean the remaining little bumps of solder off the
> pads.

If you are going to scrap the PCB, there is a fast and safe (for the IC)
way. Turn the board upside down (IC facing down). Heat the top of the
PCB with a really hot heat gun and watch your undamaged drop onto your
desk. Gasp and run to open all the windows (PCB's are generally not made
to smell good at high temperatures.)

--
Friendly Regards

Tjaart van der Walt
RemoveMEtjaartspamspamBeGonewasp.co.za
________________________________________________________
|        WASP International   http://wasp.co.za          |
|   R&D Engineer : GSM peripheral services development   |
|Vehicle tracking | Telemetry systems | GSM data transfer|
|Voice : +27-(0)11-622-8686  |  Fax : +27-(0)11-622-8973 |
|             WGS-84 : 26010.52'S 28006.19'E             |
|________________________________________________________|

1997\09\08@011638 by tjaart

flavicon
face
Andrew Russell Morris wrote:
>
> One question: If I end up having to solder parts onto both sides of the
> board, how do I keep the ones on the bottom from falling off? Are all SMT
> parts the same height, so that the oven tray will hold them in place until
> they cool off? Any suggestions are welcome.

Hey, those are two questions! ;)

The one side of the PCB is laid out to contain all the through-hole
components, and most of the SMD's. This side is soldered by a process
called
reflow. This is basically an oven with a conveyor belt running through
it (a
bit like some high volume Pizza ovens).

The rest of the SMD components (*NOT* through holes) are arranged (and
glued)
on the other side in rows so their leads are lined up. The board is held
with
this side facing down over a solder bath. A wave is created in the bath
and
this runs under the board soldering the components as it travels from
one
side to the other (See why you need glue?).

This is called wave soldering.

Never put though hole components on both sides of the board even if your
friendly manufacturer assures you it is possible.

Try to keep your component count as low a possible by using, for
instance,
resistor arrays in stead of discrete resistors. These arrays are more
expensive than the discretes, but the component cost is small in
relation
to the placement costs (per component).

Try to avoid using through hole components. The placement costs are high
and you pay per pin, where with SMD's you pay per component.

Use the smallest components your manufacturer can handle. The higher
cost
is paid for by the savings on PCB and enclosure costs. You'll see that
these last two often-overlooked aspects often consistute more than half
the total cost.

--
Friendly Regards

Tjaart van der Walt
spamBeGonetjaart@spam@spamspam_OUTwasp.co.za
________________________________________________________
|        WASP International   http://wasp.co.za          |
|   R&D Engineer : GSM peripheral services development   |
|Vehicle tracking | Telemetry systems | GSM data transfer|
|Voice : +27-(0)11-622-8686  |  Fax : +27-(0)11-622-8973 |
|             WGS-84 : 26010.52'S 28006.19'E             |
|________________________________________________________|

1997\09\08@035112 by Peter Homann

picon face
Andrew Russell Morris wrote:
>
> One question: If I end up having to solder parts onto both sides of the
> board, how do I keep the ones on the bottom from falling off? Are all SMT
> parts the same height, so that the oven tray will hold them in place until
> they cool off? Any suggestions are welcome.


You'll need to support the pcb along the edges so that the bottom of
the pcb is not in contact with a tray, etc. The surface tension of the
solder paste will hold the components on the bottom side of the pcb,
unless thet are very heavy. In that case it will be necessary to use
component glue for those parts. Hint, put all the large components on
the top side of the pcb.

When using a toaster oven, ensure that the temperature of the oven is less
than 80 degs C, before placing the pcb in. Then, turn on the oven, with the
temperature of the controller set to, say 209 degs C. When the temp is
reached, the controller will switch off the heating element. Open the door
and let is cool for a while before removing.

Note: the toaster should be a "Fan Forced" one so that the temperature is
consistent throughout the oven.

I hope this helps.


Peter.
--
Peter Homann   email: TakeThisOuTpeterhspamspamadacel.com.au       Work : +61 3 9596-2991
Adacel Pty Ltd                                   Fax  : +61 3 9596-2960
250 Bay St, Brighton 3186, VIC, AUSTRALIA      Mobile :     014 025-925
http://www.adacel.com.au     Australian Software Engineering Excellence

'[OT] RS232'
1997\09\08@071937 by David BALDWIN

flavicon
face
Hi all,

       I had like to drive a plotter which uses RS232 protocol. When using
Hyperterminal, things are working fine, except that it sends ASCII. I am
using: Send text file. Is there any other soft, or perhaps in Hypert.,
to drive my plotter like Hyperterminal does, but with binary transfer?
Thanks a lot.

David

1997\09\08@090943 by Andy Kunz

flavicon
face
At 01:18 PM 9/8/97 +0200, you wrote:
>Hi all,
>
>        I had like to drive a plotter which uses RS232 protocol. When using
>Hyperterminal, things are working fine, except that it sends ASCII. I am
>using: Send text file. Is there any other soft, or perhaps in Hypert.,
>to drive my plotter like Hyperterminal does, but with binary transfer?
>Thanks a lot.

I presume you have a file with the plot commands in it.

Try this:

C:>  COPY filename COM1 /B

The /B is the key - it goes out in pure binary then.

Andy

==================================================================
Andy Kunz - Montana Design - 409 S 6th St - Phillipsburg, NJ 08865
         Hardware & Software for Industry & R/C Hobbies
       "Go fast, turn right, and keep the wet side down!"
==================================================================

1997\09\08@092211 by David BALDWIN

flavicon
face
Andy Kunz wrote:
{Quote hidden}

       Yes, but I have to change the baud rate. I will try with MODE this
evening. My problem is my plotter, it only has 40 word fifo, and the
upload soft has to stop when it tells STOP, not a word after, or it will
be lost. That's the key of the problem :(

David

1997\09\08@110813 by Mike Keitz

picon face
On Mon, 8 Sep 1997 15:18:25 +0200 David BALDWIN <dbEraseMEspamSDM.BEL.ALCATEL.BE>
writes:

>        Yes, but I have to change the baud rate. I will try with MODE
>this
>evening. My problem is my plotter, it only has 40 word fifo, and the
>upload soft has to stop when it tells STOP, not a word after, or it
>will
>be lost. That's the key of the problem :(

Engage the "hardware flow control" at both ends.  In Winodws 95, go
through Control Panel - System - Device Manager - Ports (COM and LPT) -
Communications Port (COMx) - Port Settings, then pull down the flow
control box and select Hardware.  If the plotter protocol is ASCII text,
which could be determined by looking at the file, then "Send Text File"
from a terminal program should work.

The DOS com drivers used to always use and require hardware flow control.
For a slow device like a plotter, use a ,P option in the mode setting.
This gives extra timeout time.

The cable needs to have the flow control connections wired.  A "3-wire"
cable having only send, receive, and ground won't work.  The important
wire is RTS (plotter) - CTS (PC) which is pin 5 of a 25-pin connector if
the plotter is wired as DCE.  When this signal is inactive, the PC will
stop sending.  The plotter will likely drive it without any special setup
but you may need to reconfigure it.  One of those monitor boxes with a
LED connected to each signal is useful in situations like this.

1997\09\08@142851 by Andy Kunz

flavicon
face
>        Yes, but I have to change the baud rate. I will try with MODE this
>evening. My problem is my plotter, it only has 40 word fifo, and the
>upload soft has to stop when it tells STOP, not a word after, or it will
>be lost. That's the key of the problem :(

What kind of plotter?  I use this with several HP plotters (from A-size
flatbed to DraftPro EXL), and only requirement is hw handshaking.

Sure you got the right cable and MODE settings?

Andy

==================================================================
Andy Kunz - Montana Design - 409 S 6th St - Phillipsburg, NJ 08865
         Hardware & Software for Industry & R/C Hobbies
       "Go fast, turn right, and keep the wet side down!"
==================================================================

'[OT} test message'
1997\09\08@163612 by Guy Farebrother

flavicon
face
This is a test message (message one)

1997\09\08@163618 by Guy Farebrother

flavicon
face
This is a test message (message 2)

'[ot] BASIC STAMP1'
1997\09\08@172439 by Shane Nelson

flavicon
face
mIGUL,

you fixed your keyboard!! Congrats.

-Shane.


On Mon, 8 Sep 1997, WF AUTOMA=?iso-8859-1?Q?=C7=C3O ?= wrote:

> Is it the BASIC STAMP1 Software Freeware?
>
>         MAW
>

1997\09\08@174138 by WF AUTOMA‚̀O

flavicon
face
Shane Nelson wrote:
>
> mIGUL,
>
> you fixed your keyboard!! Congrats.
>
> -Shane.
>
> On Mon, 8 Sep 1997, WF AUTOMA=?iso-8859-1?Q?=C7=C3O ?= wrote:
>
> > Is it the BASIC STAMP1 Software Freeware?
> >
> >         MAW
> >

Thank's! But you don't aswered me! :)

My friend have the BASIC STAMP 1 Hardware, but don't have the Software!

Miguel.

1997\09\08@190007 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face
   > > Is it the BASIC STAMP1 Software Freeware?

No, not exactly.  You can download the software, documentation, and
instructions for making the connecting cable for free from Parallax
(http://www.parallax-inc.com).   While the SW is normally a commercial product,
parallax's primary interest is in selling stamps, and this is something
they do to lower the entry cost for hobbyists and very small companies.

I think it's very nice of them.

Parallax also maintains a separate mailing list "just about stamps".

BillW

'[OT] Re: Turning back the clock'
1997\09\08@192022 by Eric Smith

flavicon
face
Andrew G Williams <RemoveMEAGW01EraseMEspamspam_OUTAOL.COM> wrote:
> In what way is changing the settings of my own system clock unethical?
> I'm not altering a single byte of program code.

The following comments assume the abscence of a license agreement:

The mere act of setting the clock of your computer back is not illegal, and
probably everyone would agree that it is not unethical.

It is well-established legally (at least in the US) that the consumer has the
right to make any desired alterations to purchased products.  This includes
patching object code.  It has even been found that any interim copies which are
made solely as a necessary step in the alteration are covered as fair use.

I would argue that patching per se is not unethical.

However, I personally consider it to be unethical to either set back the clock
or to patch out the checking in order to circumvent the author's intended
restrictions on a trial version of a software package.

IMHO, if the software is worth using, it is worth buying.

Eric

'[ot] BASIC STAMP1'
1997\09\08@192237 by WF AUTOMA‚̀O

flavicon
face
William Chops Westfield wrote:
>
>     > > Is it the BASIC STAMP1 Software Freeware?
>
> No, not exactly.  You can download the software, documentation, and
> instructions for making the connecting cable for free from Parallax
> (http://www.parallax-inc.com).   While the SW is normally a commercial product,
> parallax's primary interest is in selling stamps, and this is something
> they do to lower the entry cost for hobbyists and very small companies.
>
> I think it's very nice of them.
>
> Parallax also maintains a separate mailing list "just about stamps".
>
> BillW

Thank's! I did the Download now!

Miguel.

'[OT] Re: Turning back the clock'
1997\09\08@194051 by John Payson

picon face
> However, I personally consider it to be unethical to either set back the clock
> or to patch out the checking in order to circumvent the author's intended
> restrictions on a trial version of a software package.
>
> IMHO, if the software is worth using, it is worth buying.

Note, further, that the software activation was obtained by filling out
a license agreement form on Hitech's web site (or otherwise sending HiTech
an agreement); by requesting the serial number you have indicated that you
agree not to use the software for purposes other than those indicated.

'[OT] metaphysical wanderings'
1997\09\08@215535 by Eric Smith

flavicon
face
Andrew G Williams <@spam@AGW01RemoveMEspamEraseMEAOL.COM> wrote:
> Just read the Penrose books.

Brief summary of Penrose's position (with which I strongly disagree):

Computers can't have intelligence because they are specifically designed
to avoid randomness due to quantum uncertainty.  This was a mostly accidental
(but generally fortuitous) result of using large numbers of electrons, thus
getting statistically predictable behavior.

Humans, on the other hand, use neurons that might possibly demonstrate
macroscopic behavior influenced by quantum uncertainty.  Therefore, they
can't be simulated by computers.  Therefore computers can't be intelligent.

Obvious problems with his argument:

       does human intelligence really depend on quantum uncertainty?

       if so, couldn't there be another means to achieve equivalent
       intelligence without quantum uncertainty?

As near as I can tell, Penrose believes quantum uncertaintly is necessary
to intelligence because:

       all known naturally-occuring forms of inteligence involve quantum
       uncertainty

       we've never developed intelligent computers (circular reasoning)

       we can't predict the behaior of human beings, so they must be
       non-deterministic (false, increases in complexity of a system tend
       to cause exponential increases in the computation needed to model
       the system, so inability to predict the behavior of a system does
       not prove that it is non-deterministic)

However, "The Emperor's New Mind" is quite interesting reading even if the
logic underlying his conclusions is incomplete.  I haven't read his other
book(s) yet.

'[OT] SMT soldering'
1997\09\08@231901 by Andrew Russell Morris

picon face
>
>When using a toaster oven, ensure that the temperature of the oven is less
>than 80 degs C, before placing the pcb in. Then, turn on the oven, with the
>temperature of the controller set to, say 209 degs C. When the temp is
>reached, the controller will switch off the heating element. Open the door
>and let is cool for a while before removing.
>

Do you turn the oven off and open the door as soon as 209 degrees is
reached, or sometime afterward. I know the the controller will switch off
the heating element at 209 degrees, but it will come back on when the
temperature drops a little, and keep turning on and off, maintaining
temperature at the set point until I turn it off.

I don't want to appear stupid. I think you mean as soon as the controller
switches the heater off for the first time, but I just want to be sure I
understand what you meant. :-)

1997\09\08@234438 by Peter Homann

picon face
Andrew Russell Morris wrote:
>
> >
> >When using a toaster oven, ensure that the temperature of the oven is less
> >than 80 degs C, before placing the pcb in. Then, turn on the oven, with the
> >temperature of the controller set to, say 209 degs C. When the temp is
> >reached, the controller will switch off the heating element. Open the door
> >and let is cool for a while before removing.
> >
>
> Do you turn the oven off and open the door as soon as 209 degrees is
> reached, or sometime afterward. I know the the controller will switch off
> the heating element at 209 degrees, but it will come back on when the
> temperature drops a little, and keep turning on and off, maintaining
> temperature at the set point until I turn it off.
>
> I don't want to appear stupid. I think you mean as soon as the controller
> switches the heater off for the first time, but I just want to be sure I
> understand what you meant. :-)


To clarify the above, the oven must be below 50 degs C (120 F) before the
heating cycle is started. This is necessary so that the solder paste can
pass through the point needed to drive of solder paste solvents before
the melting point is reached.

The oven should be switch off when the temperature reaches 219 degs C
(426 F) NOT 209 degs C as above, but the fans should continue to run.
Once the set-point is reached the heater must remain off to allow the
cooling cycle to commence.


I hope this is clearer.

Peter.
--
Peter Homann   email: EraseMEpeterhspam@spam@adacel.com.au       Work : +61 3 9596-2991
Adacel Pty Ltd                                   Fax  : +61 3 9596-2960
250 Bay St, Brighton 3186, VIC, AUSTRALIA      Mobile :     014 025-925
http://www.adacel.com.au     Australian Software Engineering Excellence

'[OT] metaphysical wanderings'
1997\09\09@013819 by mikesmith_oz

flavicon
face
On  9 Sep 97 at 1:49, Eric Smith wrote:

> Andrew G Williams <@spam@AGW01spam_OUTspam.....AOL.COM> wrote:
> > Just read the Penrose books.
>
> Brief summary of Penrose's position (with which I strongly
> disagree):

Must check out the local library.

{Quote hidden}

Aren't scientist developing a so called 'quantum effect' computer,
anyway?

>
> As near as I can tell, Penrose believes quantum uncertaintly is
> necessary to intelligence because:
>
>         all known naturally-occuring forms of inteligence involve
>         quantum uncertainty

Thats like saying - "All life is based on the carbon atom, therefore
life based on other atoms is not possible"
(impossible to prove a negative, isn't it?)

>
>         we've never developed intelligent computers (circular
>         reasoning)

Kasparov was sounding rather hysterical on the subject.
MikeS
<mikesmith_oz@nosp*m.relaymail.net>
(remove the you know what before replying)

'[OT] Re: Turning back the clock'
1997\09\09@013832 by mikesmith_oz

flavicon
face
On  8 Sep 97 at 23:14, Eric Smith wrote:

{Quote hidden}

Further, that crippling s/w more than having a 'use by' date on it,
is self-defeating for the author, in that it prevents the user from
trying out the code.  An instance - A piece of software called CAMCAD
is available for read/modify/write of differing formats of say pcb
artwork.  However, it is crippled to the extent where - you can't
edit - you can only read a limited number of formats - you can't
export as a different format.  As shareware this is useless - I don't
know if it will let me move a file from one format to another then
into another piece of s/w.  All I know about it is that its screen
redraw speed is slow with a complex board (with a fast video system)
- something that does not impel me to register it.  If I could try
its other features I might not be swayed by thee speed, and I might
possibly register it - but not as it is.  So they have lost a sale.
MikeS
<mikesmith_oz@nosp*m.relaymail.net>
(remove the you know what before replying)

'[OT] metaphysical wanderings'
1997\09\09@131246 by Andres Djordjalian

flavicon
face
> Brief summary of Penrose's position (with which I strongly disagree):
> Computers can't have intelligence because they are specifically designed
> to avoid randomness due to quantum uncertainty.  This was a mostly accidental
> (but generally fortuitous) result of using large numbers of electrons, thus
> getting statistically predictable behavior.
> Humans, on the other hand, use neurons that might possibly demonstrate
> macroscopic behavior influenced by quantum uncertainty.  Therefore, they
> can't be simulated by computers.  Therefore computers can't be intelligent.

I read the book quite a while ago so I don't remember it well, but I
don't think Penrose's points were those. He rather has a belief (or
at least considers the idea) that our brains are non-deterministic,
and he uses quantum theory to back up this thought, showing a
hypotetical scientifically-approved source for this uncertainity.

> Obvious problems with his argument:
>         does human intelligence really depend on quantum uncertainty?

As I said, this is an hipotesis he uses to show that it is physically
possible to have a non-deterministic brain.

{Quote hidden}

You can say that if something can be predicted (to 100% accuracy) by
us then it is deterministic, but the counter-theorem is far from true
and not only because of what you're saying. I don't believe Penrose
will make such a big mistake, you must have misunderstood him. As an
example, the points that don't belong to a Mandlebrot set are
deterministic in nature but they can't be calculated.

Oh, here I am messing with this topic again! I don't think people in
the list will like it, sorry, I promise not to send another message like
this here.

Regards,

Andres Djordjalian
adjordjspamBeGonespamaleph.fi.uba.ar

'[OT] SMT soldering Humor?'
1997\09\09@150134 by Joe Little

flavicon
face
    .......snip
    Do you turn the oven off and open the door as soon as 209 degrees is
    reached, or sometime afterward.
    .......snip

    Soldering SMT parts in a toaster oven....
    I get the screaming heebe-jeebies with every installment of this thread.
    I saw a technician that soldered with an electric charcoal grill starter.
    He said they just plug it in until it glows cherry red, and wave it over
    the board till everything looks soldered.

    Component databooks frequently contain a page or two on soldering. The
    Motorola data book have good information on temperature profiles and times.

    The book contains a graph that looks something like:
    preheat  to  50 C
    increase to 150 C in in first minute
    increase to 160 C in the next minute
    increase to 170 C in the next minute
    increase to 205 C in the next minute
    decrease to  50 C in the last minute

    Joe

'[OT] RS232'
1997\09\09@161308 by Steve Smith

picon face
To print plotter files I used to use the following

MODE COM1 = LPT1
copy{plotfile.hgl} LPT1

always worked on an old Huston plotter and still works on Roland plotters as
the command strings are all ASCII anyway

Cheers Steve.....

'[OT] metaphysical wanderings'
1997\09\10@031456 by mikesmith_oz

flavicon
face
On  5 Sep 97 at 20:16, Andres Djordjalian wrote:

>
> Oh, here I am messing with this topic again! I don't think people in
> the list will like it, sorry, I promise not to send another message
> like this here.

Its marked OT - they can't really  complain  - not with a straight
face, anyway.
MikeS
<mikesmith_oz@nosp*m.relaymail.net>
(remove the you know what before replying)

'[OT] 7 Segment LED'
1997\09\10@033154 by Jacques Vrey

flavicon
face
Hi to all

I was wondering if any of you out there might be able to help.
Some time ago I bought a stack of surplus 7 segment LED's. I'm
wanting to use some in a few PIC projects and such. I have no problem
with most of them but I've got some TIL+311 and have absolutely no
idea how to hook them up. So does any of you out there have a
diagram/datasheet or info for this baby??? If so, could you please
send me a copy (legible ascii art is fine). Thanks.


Jacques Vrey
Iscor Steel Profile Products
Newcastle
South Africa
Tel: +27 (0)3431 48759
RemoveMEjvrey@spam@spamspamBeGoneit.new.iscorltd.co.za

1997\09\10@045315 by Jacques Vrey

flavicon
face
{Quote hidden}

Hi there..again

In response..
That was the first thing I tried and all I managed to locate was the
dp's.
This 7seg has a small chip in it that appears to do some decoding as
each segment actually consists of four individual LED's as such:

+--\/----\/--+   +------------+
|            | 14|0          0|1
|  o o o o   |   |            |
|  o     o   | 13|0          0|2
|  o     o   |   |      T     |
|  o o o o   | 12|0     I    0|3
|  o     o   |   |      L     |
|  o     o   |   |      3    0|4
|o o o o o o |   |      1     |
|            | 10|0     1    0|5
|   +---+    |   |            |
|   |IC |    |   |            |
|   |   |    |   |            |
|   +---+    |  8|0          0|7
+-----/\-----+   +------------+

Maybe this will shed some light on the problem.
Thanks anyway.
Regards
Jacques Vrey
Iscor Steel Profile Products
Newcastle
South Africa
Tel: +27 (0)3431 48759
.....jvreySTOPspamspam@spam@it.new.iscorltd.co.za

1997\09\10@045315 by Jacques Vrey

flavicon
face
{Quote hidden}

Hi there..again

In response..
That was the first thing I tried and all I managed to locate was the
dp's.
This 7seg has a small chip in it that appears to do some decoding as
each segment actually consists of four individual LED's as such:

+--\/----\/--+   +------------+
|            | 14|0          0|1
|  o o o o   |   |            |
|  o     o   | 13|0          0|2
|  o     o   |   |      T     |
|  o o o o   | 12|0     I    0|3
|  o     o   |   |      L     |
|  o     o   |   |      3    0|4
|o o o o o o |   |      1     |
|            | 10|0     1    0|5
|   +---+    |   |            |
|   |IC |    |   |            |
|   |   |    |   |            |
|   +---+    |  8|0          0|7
+-----/\-----+   +------------+

Maybe this will shed some light on the problem.
Thanks anyway.
Regards
Jacques Vrey
Iscor Steel Profile Products
Newcastle
South Africa
Tel: +27 (0)3431 48759
spamBeGonejvreyKILLspamspam@spam@it.new.iscorltd.co.za

1997\09\10@051642 by Michael Coop (pjm)

flavicon
face
Boom !  (Well almost .)

The TIL-311 is a combined hex decoder / latch display driver.

Jacques - I have sent you an email 1.7MB with the product data sheets...

Regards
MC

-----Original Message-----
From:   Jacques Vrey [SMTP:jvreyspam_OUTspam@spam@IT.NEW.ISCORLTD.CO.ZA]
Sent:   Wednesday, September 10, 1997 4:31 PM
To:     spamBeGonePICLIST@spam@spamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject:        Re: [OT] 7 Segment LED

>
> Have you tried putting one of them in a breadboard, and using a 3V supply
> and a 200R resistor to check out the pins. Connect a random pin to ground
> then connect each pin in turn through the resistor to +3V.
>
> These are the possible outcomes.

1997\09\10@052053 by Jacques Vrey

flavicon
face
> Boom !  (Well almost .)
>
> The TIL-311 is a combined hex decoder / latch display driver.
>
> Jacques - I have sent you an email 1.7MB with the product data sheets...
>
> Regards
> MC
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From:   Jacques Vrey [SMTP:RemoveMEjvreyEraseMEspamKILLspamIT.NEW.ISCORLTD.CO.ZA]
> Sent:   Wednesday, September 10, 1997 4:31 PM
> To:     spamBeGonePICLISTspam_OUTspamRemoveMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Subject:        Re: [OT] 7 Segment LED
>
>

Muchly obliged.

Jacques Vrey
Iscor Steel Profile Products
Newcastle
South Africa
Tel: +27 (0)3431 48759
.....jvreyspamRemoveMEit.new.iscorltd.co.za

1997\09\10@055502 by nvdw

flavicon
face
> +--\/----\/--+   +------------+
> |            | 14|0          0|1
> |  o o o o   |   |            |
> |  o     o   | 13|0          0|2
> |  o     o   |   |      T     |
> |  o o o o   | 12|0     I    0|3
> |  o     o   |   |      L     |
> |  o     o   |   |      3    0|4
> |o o o o o o |   |      1     |
> |            | 10|0     1    0|5
> |   +---+    |   |            |
> |   |IC |    |   |            |
> |   |   |    |   |            |
> |   +---+    |  8|0          0|7
> +-----/\-----+   +------------+
>
> Maybe this will shed some light on the problem.

Similar to some HP displays I *had*, should be
BCD encoding + GND + VCC + CS :
Pin 7 - GND
Pin 14 - VCC
1-5 probably digital....

'[OT]gerber->postscript'
1997\09\10@084308 by Joe Little

flavicon
face
    S...
    I want to convert a pcb layout file which is in gerber format
    to PostScript to print on paper....
    S...

    See http://WWW.ECAM.com/    Excellent gerber viewer/editor/printer
    They have a 7 day timed demo, and untimed (limited) demo.
    (It also scales with independant X and Y factors to help compensate for the
    paper stretch.)
    Joe

'[OT] Re: gerber->postscript'
1997\09\10@090936 by Oyvind Kaurstad

flavicon
face
>BTW have you tried to make a layout mask using transparency, ink jet
>printer and photoresist, is the quality and contrast acceptable?
>I have tried using laser printer, but have found that the black areas were
>slightly transparent to UV, so the resulting pcb was practicaly unusable.
>I also had no lack using this special transparencies (TES or something else)
>which you iron press on a copper board.

I'm using a HP 820cxi inkjet printer and regular
inkjet transparencies.

I buy PCB's with photoresist, and this works out ok for me.
Generally I don't use track widths less than 0.2 mm.

On the HP printer it seems that more ink is applied if I set the output
quality to maximum and specify "Premium paper" instead of "Transparency"


-Oyvind

'[OT] 7 Segment LED'
1997\09\10@101434 by Larry Payne

flavicon
face
part 0 74 bytes
Complete data on the TIL311 is available at http://www.ti.com.

cheers,
-larry-

1997\09\10@110931 by Martin R. Green

picon face
If I remember correctly (and I might not) the TIL311 is a smart LED, with a
4 character addressable latch.  I think these devices were actually 15
segment devices, allowing display of the complete ASCII set.  The logic
circuits are 5V TTL.  I will check at home to see if I still have info on
these useful, but way expensive devices.


CIAO - Martin R. Green
elimarspam@spam@bigfoot.com

----------
From:   Jacques Vrey[SMTP:EraseMEjvreyRemoveMEspamSTOPspamIT.NEW.ISCORLTD.CO.ZA]
Sent:   Wednesday, September 10, 1997 4:30 AM
To:     RemoveMEPICLISTKILLspamspamTakeThisOuTmitvma.mit.edu
Subject:        Re: [OT] 7 Segment LED

{Quote hidden}

Connect
> +ve through resistor to pin and probe for cathode.
>
> Common cathode, gnd connected to cathode - lots of segments light up in
turn
> (bingo) start writing down pin allocations.
>
> Common anode, gnd connected to anode - no segments light up. Connect +ve
> through resistor to pin and start writing down segmemnts.
>
> Common anode, gnd connected to segment - only one segment lights up.
Connect
> +ve to pin which lights segments and start writing down pin allocations.
>
> There may be some pins which are not connected, or which are bridged
> together. If you have a meter in series with the 3V supply it's easy to
see
{Quote hidden}

Hi there..again

In response..
That was the first thing I tried and all I managed to locate was the
dp's.
This 7seg has a small chip in it that appears to do some decoding as
each segment actually consists of four individual LED's as such:

+--\/----\/--+   +------------+
|            | 14|0          0|1
|  o o o o   |   |            |
|  o     o   | 13|0          0|2
|  o     o   |   |      T     |
|  o o o o   | 12|0     I    0|3
|  o     o   |   |      L     |
|  o     o   |   |      3    0|4
|o o o o o o |   |      1     |
|            | 10|0     1    0|5
|   +---+    |   |            |
|   |IC |    |   |            |
|   |   |    |   |            |
|   +---+    |  8|0          0|7
+-----/\-----+   +------------+

Maybe this will shed some light on the problem.
Thanks anyway.
Regards
Jacques Vrey
Iscor Steel Profile Products
Newcastle
South Africa
Tel: +27 (0)3431 48759
jvreyspamspamit.new.iscorltd.co.za

'[OT] Re: gerber->postscript'
1997\09\10@134307 by Eric van Es

flavicon
face
Oyvind Kaurstad wrote:

{Quote hidden}

Hi Oyvind

I had a HP DeskJet 600 from Oct 96 till last month. I now have a HP 690
C+. From my experiance I can say that all HP's (and probably all
inkjets) use more ink to increase quality. When printing High Quality,
the heads make more passes on the paper's lenght, ie: smaller "pixels"
of ink are deposited. Thus there are more "pixels" and more ink is used.
The result is a page soaked in ink if you use normal (thin) photocopier
paper.

Cheers!
--
Eric van Es               | Cape Town, South Africa
spam_OUTvanesspam_OUTspamspam_OUTilink.nis.za | http://www.nis.za/~vanes
LOOKING FOR TEMPORARY / HOLIDAY ACCOMODATION?
http://www.nis.za/~vanes/accom.htm

'[OT] SMT soldering Humor?'
1997\09\10@134312 by Eric van Es

flavicon
face
Joe Little wrote:

{Quote hidden}

And did the boards  work?
Probably. The things I have done to get a plant losing 10,000 bucks
every hour running again will also make some peoples hair stand on
edge...

I'm not critisising you, but sometimes one can get away with murder...

--
Eric van Es               | Cape Town, South Africa
vanesspam_OUTspamilink.nis.za | http://www.nis.za/~vanes
LOOKING FOR TEMPORARY / HOLIDAY ACCOMODATION?
http://www.nis.za/~vanes/accom.htm

'[OT] Re: Turning back the clock'
1997\09\10@141615 by Andrew G Williams

picon face
Eric Smith wrote:

>Andrew G Williams <RemoveMEAGW01KILLspamspam@spam@AOL.COM> wrote:
>> In what way is changing the settings of my own system clock unethical?
>> I'm not altering a single byte of program code.
>
>
> ..... I personally consider it to be unethical to either set back the clock
>or to patch out the checking in order to circumvent the author's intended
>restrictions on a trial version of a software package.
>
>IMHO, if the software is worth using, it is worth buying.

I find it difficult to disagree with that.
It's just as well I prefer assembler! :-)

Andy.

'[OT] SMT soldering Humor?'
1997\09\10@160631 by Mike

flavicon
face
At 07:23 PM 9/10/97 +0200, you wrote:

>I'm not critisising you, but sometimes one can get away with murder...

I'm sure the irony of such a statement from South Africa is not lost on
those following the reports of the Security Squads etc...

Hope those times are gone :)

>--
>Eric van Es               | Cape Town, South Africa

Rgds

Mike
Perth, Western Australia

1997\09\10@181223 by Martin McCormick

flavicon
face
Tjaart van der Walt writes:
>desk. Gasp and run to open all the windows (PCB's are generally not made
>to smell good at high temperatures.)

       If you have a smoke alarm in the room, find another place.  I set
ours off doing that to a conventional board with a paint stripper gun.  A
respirator that keeps the smoke directly out of your face is probably a
good thing to use, also.  That vapor can't possibly do any good for one's
lungs and liver.

Martin McCormick WB5AGZ  Stillwater, OK 36.7N97.4W
OSU Center for Computing and Information Services Data Communications Group

'[OT] 7 Segment LED'
1997\09\11@021218 by Jacques Vrey

flavicon
face
> Jacques,
>
> Complete data on the TIL311 is available at http://www.ti.com.
>
> cheers,
> -larry-
>
>

Thanks very much, I found the datasheet in pdf there.
Thanks to everyone for the help.
Oddly enough I was looking for exactly this type of display some time
back for a PC POST (Power on self test) Card - not knowing that I
already had some. The project never came off the groung so maybe I'll
pursue it now.

Thanks.

Regards
Jacques Vrey
Iscor Steel Profile Products
Newcastle
South Africa
Tel: +27 (0)3431 48759
jvreyspamBeGonespam.....it.new.iscorltd.co.za

'[OT] LED with logic pinout'
1997\09\11@044307 by Vesa Tervo (OH3NWQ)

flavicon
face
Farnell catalogue says the pinout for TIL311 is:

1 led supply (TI)
2 latch data i/p B
3 latch data i/p A
4 left decimal point cathode
5 latch strobe i/p
6 n/c
7 common gnd

8 blanking input
9 n/c
10 right decimal point cathode
11 n/c
12 latch data i/p D
13 latch data i/p C
14 logic supply Vcc



--

---Tampere---a-place-in-Finland-where-everything-gets-tampered-with---
KILLspamoh3nwqspam.....nic.funet.fi                http://www.funet.fi/~oh3nwq/
---------------------------Assimilate-this----------------------------

'[OT]gerber->postscript'
1997\09\11@071300 by GROB.S.R

flavicon
face
> I want to convert a pcb layout file which is in gerber format to
> PostScript to print on paper...

Have a look at GCPrevue. It can read Gerber, Postscript, HPGL and can
convert between them.

GCPrevue used to be a DOS software with an awkward user interface.
Now it is a Win software with a slightly more intuitive user
interface.

But it is for free and it is made by real professionals.

It is also a great utility to visualize and verify your Gerber
output!

See:
http://www.graphicode.com/



-------------------------------------------------
Siegfried Grob
 School of Electronic and Electrical Engineering
 University of Leeds
 Institute of Integrated Information Systems
 Woodhouse Lane
 Leeds LS2 9JT

fax:    +44-113-233-2032
e-mail: spam_OUTsiegfried.grobspamKILLspamstudent.uni-ulm.de
   or: RemoveMEeensrgRemoveMEspamEraseMEelecteng.leeds.ac.uk

'[OT] SMT soldering'
1997\09\11@102104 by lilel

flavicon
face
>Martin interjected thqat:
>  Tjaart van der Walt writes:
> >desk. Gasp and run to open all the windows (PCB's are generally not made
> >to smell good at high temperatures.)
>
>         If you have a smoke alarm in the room, find another place.
>         I set
> ours off doing that to a conventional board with a paint stripper
> gun.  A respirator that keeps the smoke directly out of your face is
> probably a good thing to use, also.  That vapor can't possibly do
> any good for one's lungs and liver.

Solder smoke has definitely been linked to occupational asthma.  Do
not breathe it if you can help it.  Install a little fan on your
bench to keep it out of your face, get one of those air cleaners for
your bench.  Whatever you do, don't end up like me, puffing away on
inhalers for the rest of your days.


Best Regards,

Lawrence Lile

'[OT]gerber->postscript'
1997\09\11@152530 by n/a

flavicon
face
Have a look for GC-Prevue. It is freeware and it converts
Gerber to postscript or penplot.
Zack
          )|(
         (o o)
-----ooO--(_)--Ooo----

KILLspamzcspamspamBeGoneintekom.co.za
or
spazzmanspamspaminame.com

There is no justice.
There is just us.

'[OT] Is Wordpad or Notepad ASCII compatible?'
1997\09\11@183908 by Eric van Es

flavicon
face
Hi guys

I've always used the dos editor to write my source code in asm
(obvious).

Can I use Win95's Wordpad or Notepad to generate the ASCII file that
MPASM needs?

Thanks...

--
Eric van Es               | Cape Town, South Africa
RemoveMEvanesspamBeGonespamRemoveMEilink.nis.za | http://www.nis.za/~vanes
LOOKING FOR TEMPORARY / HOLIDAY ACCOMODATION?
http://www.nis.za/~vanes/accom.htm

1997\09\11@191915 by ERIC SCHLAEPFER

flavicon
face
    Hello Eric,

    You can use either, but to use WordPad you need to select the "Save as
    Ascii Text" option every time you save the file. Notepad automatically
    saves as ascii text. To make the screen more readable in Notepad,
    select a fixed width font such as Terminal.

    Hope this helps.

    Eric


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: [OT] Is Wordpad or Notepad ASCII compatible?
Author:  Eric van Es <KILLspamvanesspamBeGonespamILINK.NIS.ZA> at INTERNET
Date:    9/10/97 10:24 PM


Hi guys

I've always used the dos editor to write my source code in asm
(obvious).

Can I use Win95's Wordpad or Notepad to generate the ASCII file that
MPASM needs?

Thanks...

--
Eric van Es               | Cape Town, South Africa
@spam@vanesSTOPspamspam@spam@ilink.nis.za | http://www.nis.za/~vanes
LOOKING FOR TEMPORARY / HOLIDAY ACCOMODATION?
http://www.nis.za/~vanes/accom.htm

1997\09\11@212359 by Andrew Russell Morris

picon face
At 10:24 PM 9/10/97 +0200, you wrote:
>Hi guys
>
>I've always used the dos editor to write my source code in asm
>(obvious).
>
>Can I use Win95's Wordpad or Notepad to generate the ASCII file that
>MPASM needs?
>
>Thanks...
>
>--
>Eric van Es               | Cape Town, South Africa
>vanesspamBeGonespamspamBeGoneilink.nis.za | http://www.nis.za/~vanes
>LOOKING FOR TEMPORARY / HOLIDAY ACCOMODATION?
>http://www.nis.za/~vanes/accom.htm
>
Yes. I do it all the time.

1997\09\12@010333 by mikesmith_oz

flavicon
face
On 10 Sep 97 at 22:24, Eric van Es wrote:

> Hi guys
>
> I've always used the dos editor to write my source code in asm
> (obvious).
>
> Can I use Win95's Wordpad or Notepad to generate the ASCII file that
> MPASM needs?

WordPad is slow, and tends to write files out in complex formats
unless you keep your eye on it.  Notepad is adequate - barely.
I use a shareware (registered!!) program called TextPad, by Helios
Software - its designed for programming, and you can set it up to
default to whatever coding styles you like.  (auto indent, tabs, file
extension names, etc) Does good searches too - if you've got a group
of .c and .h files, and want to find (and/or replace) occurrences of
"word" it'll search files in dirs and subdirs.

>
> Thanks...
>
> --
> Eric van Es               | Cape Town, South Africa
> spamBeGonevanesspamilink.nis.za | http://www.nis.za/~vanes
> LOOKING FOR TEMPORARY / HOLIDAY ACCOMODATION?
> http://www.nis.za/~vanes/accom.htm
>
MikeS
<mikesmith_oz@nosp*m.relaymail.net>
(remove the you know what before replying)

'[OTNOT] PICLIST'
1997\09\12@023443 by : Cassie Carstens

flavicon
face
Greetings from the Mother City

What do we call ourselves      ??????
NETTERS ?
PICLISTERS ?
PIGS ? (Pic Interest Group as in FIG (Forth Interest Group))

I saw a couple of stickers saying things like :
SURFERS DOES IT STANDING UP
TEACHERS DOES IT OVER AND OVER
DIVERS DOES IT UNDERWATER
PROGRAMMERS DOES IT IN BYTES
NETWORK SUPERVISERS DOES IT ON SERVERS

So how about : PIGs does it in .................

Kind regards and have a nice weekend
C.C.

'[OT] 68HC11'
1997\09\12@085706 by David BALDWIN

flavicon
face
Hi,

       I had like to begin with 68HC11 E2 and F1 (or A1) in single and
extended mode (with EPROM). Can somebody give me so information? Thanks
a lot.

David

'[OT] Plot on copper'
1997\09\12@090943 by lilel

flavicon
face
> Lawrence Lile wrote:
>
> > I have seen plotters that use a special pen to directly draw
> > photoetch on bare copper.  All it takes is a flatbed plotter, 8-1/2"
> > x 11".

Nic wrote:

> Do you know where to get these pens? Or who makes them?

I asked a friend of mine in China, and he replied (apologies for the
broken English:

The water-resistant pen is buyed from electronic's shop. It have a
"OHP-marker edding 142M" marking.I don't know where you get it in
states. You can buy any water-resistant pens such as PILOT permanent
and make a holder to fit it in your plotter.


Best Regards,

Lawrence Lile

'[OT] Is Wordpad or Notepad ASCII compatible?'
1997\09\12@091814 by Greg Newberry

picon face
Eric, Notepad works fine. It is an ASCII editor. Watch out for wordwrap
it can mess you up.

WordPad generates a file that contains other font and document
information. Not a straight ASCII file. It won't work.

Greg

--
-------------------------------------------------
|  Greg Newberry    spam_OUTnewberrySTOPspamspamcyberhighway.net   |
|  WB7DUO QRP-L #760                            |
|  NorCal #1899  CQC #465  AR-QRP #65           |
-------------------------------------------------

1997\09\12@093052 by Martin R. Green

picon face
Either wordpad or notepad will produce the plain ASCII source that MPASM
needs, but if you are using Win95, why not use MPLAB, which has a "smart"
editor built in?

If you must use an external editor (Multi-Edit is the one I use) and you
want something free, try PFE (Programmer's File Editor), which a lot of
programmer's swear by.

CIAO - Martin R. Green
RemoveMEelimarspamspambigfoot.com

----------
From:   Eric van Es[SMTP:TakeThisOuTvanesspamspamRemoveMEILINK.NIS.ZA]
Sent:   Wednesday, September 10, 1997 4:24 PM
To:     KILLspamPICLISTspamspamspam_OUTmitvma.mit.edu
Subject:        [OT] Is Wordpad or Notepad ASCII compatible?

Hi guys

I've always used the dos editor to write my source code in asm
(obvious).

Can I use Win95's Wordpad or Notepad to generate the ASCII file that
MPASM needs?

Thanks...

--
Eric van Es               | Cape Town, South Africa
vanesRemoveMEspamilink.nis.za | http://www.nis.za/~vanes
LOOKING FOR TEMPORARY / HOLIDAY ACCOMODATION?
http://www.nis.za/~vanes/accom.htm

'[OTNOT] PICLIST'
1997\09\12@093304 by lilel

flavicon
face
> Greetings from the Mother City
>
> What do we call ourselves      ??????

PICky

PICnics

PICsters

nitPICkers

not PIGs  sorry.

Best Regards,

Lawrence Lile

'[OT] Is Wordpad or Notepad ASCII compatible?'
1997\09\12@103155 by Pierce Nichols

flavicon
face
On Fri, 12 Sep 1997, Mike Smith wrote:

> WordPad is slow, and tends to write files out in complex formats
> unless you keep your eye on it.  Notepad is adequate - barely.
> I use a shareware (registered!!) program called TextPad, by Helios
> Software - its designed for programming, and you can set it up to
> default to whatever coding styles you like.  (auto indent, tabs, file
> extension names, etc) Does good searches too - if you've got a group
> of .c and .h files, and want to find (and/or replace) occurrences of
> "word" it'll search files in dirs and subdirs.

       Why doesn't anyone else seem to use good 'ole emacs? I use it for
programming (mostly C for unix boxes), and it works fine. I know there is
a DOS variant, and there's prob. a windows variant by now (wouldn't know
-- I'm a Linux boy). It's also free.

       Pierce

'[OT] 68HC11'
1997\09\12@114555 by Douglas J.A.R.Sasse

flavicon
face
Hi, I had like to begin with 68HC11 E2 and F1 (or A1) in single and
>extended mode (with EPROM). Can somebody give me so information? Thanks
>a lot.
David

David, Contact Marvin Green at EraseMEmarvinSTOPspamspamRemoveMEagora.rdrop.com. he makes a nice basic
68hc11 board 2.5 in. by 3.5 inch. and Karl Lunt (Nut & Volt's) has the
software SBASIC on the SRS (Seattle Robotics Soc.) Web site.

regards,
http://ic.mankato.mn.us/~douglas  <- LINK to Wirz Electronics and Dontronics
for PIC info.
spam_OUTdouglasRemoveMEspamEraseMEic.mankato.mn.us

'[OT] Plot on Copper'
1997\09\12@142021 by )

flavicon
face
I have a HP 7221 (7225?) that I have used many times to plot an etch
resist pattern on copper clad board. I took a standard HP plotter pen,
removed everything except the body, then bored it out in a lathe to fit
a permanent ink pen. (You can probably do this by hand reaming with an
appropriate set of drills or careful sanding and filing.) I found that a
Sanford ultra fine point Sharpie worked the best. You need to adjust you
pen speed and width settings to get the best line while still moving
fast enough so that the pen tip does not dry out. Width setting is
important so that you don't overlap what has already been plotted as the
partially dried ink will clog up the pen tip. Likewise, don't let the
pen dry out in the holder between plots. I used drafting tape to hold
the board in place. I successfully did a design once with pads for a
flat pack IC that came out useable.

I also experimented with other brands of pens (and pencils!). I never
was able to get good results with a Berol Fine Point Permanent (which
is, BTW, the "etch resist" pen that GC electronics, Kepro, and Radio
Shack used to sell for more than a whole box of the same pen at a office
supply store). I never could keep the tips from drying out during the
plot. I have also found that for extremely fine line drawings on paper
or vellum (not film), a Pilot Precise roller ball gave excellent
results. Text smaller than 1/16 inch was clearly readable!


Frank Richterkessing

TakeThisOuTFRANK.RICHTERKESSINGRemoveMEspam@spam@APPL.GE.COM

'[OT] 68HC11'
1997\09\12@181502 by Mark Hellman

picon face
New Micros sells the "Drop Point" (1.5"x2" SM version) with FORTH on chip and
others. Info at http://www.newmicros.com.

Mark

{Original Message removed}

'[OT] Plot on Copper'
1997\09\13@170831 by Andrew Russell Morris

picon face
I thought about doing this several years ago and called the manufacturer of
my plotter (Graphtec) and they put me in contact with someone who was doing
that with black India drafting ink. I never tried it. Has anybody elde
tried that? It's cheap and readily available at any drawing supply or
office supply store and can be put in any refillable plotter pen.


At 01:56 PM 9/12/97 -0400, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

1997\09\13@172455 by Martin R. Green

picon face
One of the electronics magazines I read covered this process (using a
modified flatbed plotter to apply resist directly to PCB's) in detail a few
months ago.  They compared various types of pens, and showed excellent
photographs of the results with each (which were disappointing for all but
one type).  It looked like a really useful technique, if you had access to
an old plotter.

I don't remember which mag it was, but I'll look it up and post the
reference in the next few days.  And if some of you beg _really_ nicely, I
might be persuaded to scan the article and email it to anyone who request
it.

BTW, if anyone knows of a good (cheap) source for a used plotter for this
purpose, please reply directly to me.


CIAO - Martin R. Green
spamelimar.....spamspambigfoot.com

----------
From:   Andrew Russell Morris[SMTP:amorrisspam_OUTspam@spam@MINDSPRING.COM]
Sent:   Saturday, September 13, 1997 5:08 PM
To:     .....PICLISTspamspam.....mitvma.mit.edu
Subject:        Re: [OT] Plot on Copper

I thought about doing this several years ago and called the manufacturer of
my plotter (Graphtec) and they put me in contact with someone who was doing
that with black India drafting ink. I never tried it. Has anybody elde
tried that? It's cheap and readily available at any drawing supply or
office supply store and can be put in any refillable plotter pen.


At 01:56 PM 9/12/97 -0400, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

'[OT] piclist acronyms and abbreviations'
1997\09\13@172701 by Clyde Smith-Stubbs

flavicon
face
On Sat, Sep 13, 1997 at 05:00:08PM -0400, Andrew Russell Morris wrote:
> What does AFAIK mean? Does anybody have a list of the acronyms and
> abbreviations used on the piclist? I know some of them like:

Here is a partial list of what you might see on the PICLIST - IRC
type people will have many more :-)

AFAIK           as far as I know
ASAP            as soon as possible
BBS             bulletin board system
BTW             by the way
FAIK            for all I know
FAQ             frequently asked question, or a collection thereof
FOAF            friend of a friend
FTP             file transfer protocol
FUBAR           f'd up beyond all recognition
FWIW            for what it's worth
FYA             for your amusement
FYI             for your information
<g>             grin
<vbg>           very big grin
IANAL           I am not a lawyer (as a disclaimer)
IMHO            in my humble opinion
IMNSHO          in my not-so-humble opinion
IMO             in my opinion
IRC             internet relay chat
LOL             laughing out loud
MYOB            mind your own business (also a popular accounting package in Oz
)
NHOH            never heard of him (or, her)
OBTW            oh, by the way
OTT             over the top
ROTFL           rolling on the floor laughing (sometimes ROFL)
RTFM            read the f'ing manual
SASE            self addressed stamped envelope
SNAFU           situation normal, all f'd up
TANSTAAFL       there ain't no such thing as a free lunch
TIA             thanks in advance (sometimes aTdHvAaNnKcSe)
TNX             thanks (sometimes thx) (tnx 1e6 - thanks a million)
TTFN            ta ta for now
WRT             with respect to, with regard to
WWW             world-wide web
YMMV            your mileage may vary




--
Clyde Smith-Stubbs               |            HI-TECH Software
Email: EraseMEclyde@spam@spam@spam@htsoft.com          |          Phone            Fax
WWW:   http://www.htsoft.com/    | USA: (408) 490 2885  (408) 490 2885
PGP:   finger @spam@clydespamspamKILLspamhtsoft.com   | AUS: +61 7 3354 2411 +61 7 3354 2422
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
ANSI C for the PIC! Now shipping! See http://www.htsoft.com for more info.

'[OT]help with supply'
1997\09\13@173116 by Rick Trostel

picon face
I picked up a LAMBDA  dual regulated power supply at a yard sale today.
I thought it would be perfect for PIC projects.

On the back of the unit there is two terminal strips with 8 terminals in each
one.

on the left side, it's marked from 1 to 8 from bottom to top.
on the right side it's marked from 9 to 16 from bottom to top.

something like this:
8  PO                   16  PO
7  S+                    15  S+
6  DC+                  14  DC+
5  RP                    13  RP
4  DC-                   12  DC-
3  -S                     11  S-
2  AT                    10
1  GND                  9

There are jumpers on pins :
6-7
3-4
11-12
14-15
9-10

On the front there is terminals for V+ , Gnd,  V-
and knobs for adjusting Volts and Current limiting, and a readout for both
sides.

You can turn the voltage up and down on the display but I can't get anything
out of the front terminals.

Does anyone know how to configure the back to send the juice to the front
terminals?

Thanks ------------ Rich

'[OT] Plotter Driver'
1997\09\13@195430 by Lee Hewitt

picon face
Hello All,
             Does anyone know where I can obtain a driver file for an old
RS232 serial driven plotter, model WATANBE MP1000 ?.

Thank you for your time: Lee Hewitt

'[OT]help with supply'
1997\09\13@221431 by Mike Keitz

picon face
On Sat, 13 Sep 1997 17:29:36 -0400 Rick Trostel <spamBeGoneRTrostelRemoveMEspamEraseMEAOL.COM>
writes:
>I picked up a LAMBDA  dual regulated power supply at a yard sale
>today.
>I thought it would be perfect for PIC projects.
>

>On the front there is terminals for V+ , Gnd,  V-
>and knobs for adjusting Volts and Current limiting, and a readout for
>both
>sides.
>
>You can turn the voltage up and down on the display but I can't get
>anything
>out of the front terminals.

The DC+/S+ and DC-/S- are the output of each supply (very likely the two
sections are completely isolated from each other).  The S terminals are
provided for remote sensing (a technique to compensate for voltage drop
in long wires from the supply to the load).  Ordinarily leave them
jumpered.  The RP terminal is likely "Remote Program", for setting the
output voltage with an external resistor or network.  Since the front
panel control apparently works just use it and leave "RP" open.  I don't
know what PO an AT would be  (Maybe "Power On" and "Attention?") but you
probably don't need them either.

>Does anyone know how to configure the back to send the juice to the
>front
>terminals?

Maybe "PO" is "Panel Out" connected to the front panel + terminal (either
AT or GND would be the minus terminal then).  This could be checked with
an ohmmeter.  Measure the voltage at the DC/S terminal pairs, it should
correspond to the meter reading.  You could just run wires around from
the back terminals to power your circuit.  If you really want to use the
front terminals you may need to take the cover off (hopefully I'm not
insulting your intelligence by suggesting pulling the plug first) and try
to trace the wires from them.  There may be jumpers inside that
disconnect the front panel ouptuts for example if the supply is used in a
rack system.

1997\09\14@114729 by Steve Smith

picon face
Maybe "PO" is "Panel Out" connected to the front panel + terminal (either
AT or GND would be the minus terminal then).
This one is not the same as one I have but the PO terminal on mine is used
for current shareing when many units are opperated in parellel 'Parellel
Opperation' If you trace it back it should go to the input of an op-amp.

Cheers Steve.....

'[OT] Plotting PCB resist patterns directly on copp'
1997\09\14@125115 by Martin R. Green

picon face
Recently several people were discussing how to use a flatbed plotter to
place etch resist patterns directly on PCB copper.  I commented that I'd
seen a good article recently and I'd look it up.  Well, here it is:

  Electronics World, July 1997

This article discusses several methods for getting a resist pattern onto
the copper, and concludes that the best results are with a converted
plotter.  It also discusses various types of inks that have been tried, and
show good colour photos of the results with each.

If anyone can't find the magazine at their local library, or is just plain
too lazy, I have scanned the article into 5 GIF's and 1 JPG (for the colour
photo page), and would be happy to email it to any interested parties.  The
scans are 200 DPI and  total about 8-900K.

Let me know if you have any special needs, otherwise I'll send them MIME
format, six separate attachments.


CIAO - Martin R. Green
RemoveMEelimarKILLspamspamRemoveMEbigfoot.com

'[OT] Genius Netmouse'
1997\09\14@164840 by Eric van Es

flavicon
face
Hi guys - sorry to bother ya with a way off topic.

Does anyone of you gents (or ladies) use the Genius Netmouse?

Mine gives me trouble - suddenly the magic button won't work! I've also
had trouble with the Driver in Win95 that won't remember to swap the
browsing directions! As soon as I reboot the setting is cleared again!

Cheers!
--
Eric van Es               | Cape Town, South Africa
TakeThisOuTvanesspamilink.nis.za | http://www.nis.za/~vanes
LOOKING FOR TEMPORARY / HOLIDAY ACCOMODATION?
http://www.nis.za/~vanes/accom.htm

'[OT] Plotting PCB resist patterns directly on copp'
1997\09\14@231759 by Shane Nelson

flavicon
face
>> In private email I said to Martin:

If you're getting a large amount of requests for the article I
could post it to my web page for you.  Then you'd only have to
email it once :)

If you wanna do this email me the articles... Later today I'll
post them and give the url on the list.

>> Then Martin said to me:

Good idea, and THX.


>> So I'm saying to all of you:

There's a link at the top of the page:
http://www.spots.ab.ca/~i/

-Shane.

1997\09\15@122508 by David W. Duley

picon face
In a message dated 97-09-14 12:59:51 EDT, you write:

<<
If anyone can't find the magazine at their local library, or is just plain
too lazy, I have scanned the article into 5 GIF's and 1 JPG (for the colour
photo page), and would be happy to email it to any interested parties.  The
scans are 200 DPI and  total about 8-900K.

Let me know if you have any special needs, otherwise I'll send them MIME
format, six separate attachments.


CIAO - Martin R. Green
spamBeGoneelimarKILLspamspamTakeThisOuTbigfoot.com >>
Hello Martin,
I would like to see the article please.  My Email address id EraseMEDreiTek.....spamKILLspamaol.com
Thanks
David Duley
V.P. DreiTek Inc.

'[OT]help with supply'
1997\09\15@134044 by )

flavicon
face
Rick Trostell wrote:

<snip>


> I picked up a LAMBDA  dual regulated power supply at a yard sale
> today.
> I thought it would be perfect for PIC projects.
>
       <snip>

{Quote hidden}

Sorry Rich, I don't think you have what you think you have. On quite a
few Lambda supplies, the ground terminal is simply chassis ground - not
a common for V+ and V-. Your power supply is probably a single output
only. Connect a meter across V+ and V- and see if it matches the meter
on the supply - bet it does.


Frank Richterkessing

spamFRANK.RICHTERKESSINGspamAPPL.GE.COM

'[OT] Re: Barcode and the PIC'
1997\09\16@013234 by Pasi T Mustalahti

picon face
On Mon, 15 Sep 1997, Kahn-Syd wrote:

> I have seen
> "wedges" with wands,but they cost 100+ dollars and for that money I can get
> an awfull lot of parts.
>
> {Original Message removed}

1997\09\16@020244 by tjaart

flavicon
face
Why go through the wheel invention all over, if you can buy a bar code
scanner that plugs inline between your keyboard and PC. This scanner
pumps out ASCII on the PC side. If you want to use a PIC to read it,
what
can be easier than ASCII? You can set it up for all the popular bar
codes.

--
Friendly Regards

Tjaart van der Walt
tjaartSTOPspamspamwasp.co.za
________________________________________________________
|        WASP International   http://wasp.co.za          |
|   R&D Engineer : GSM peripheral services development   |
|Vehicle tracking | Telemetry systems | GSM data transfer|
|Voice : +27-(0)11-622-8686  |  Fax : +27-(0)11-622-8973 |
|             WGS-84 : 26010.52'S 28006.19'E             |
|________________________________________________________|

1997\09\16@070700 by Kahn-Syd

flavicon
face
I like the looks of that chip - it looks to be available locally and is
only 25$ or so in single quantitys.  I found a wand at a surplus place and
it is only 25$ or so.  I feel that with a basic Stamp and a weekend or two I
could build a wedge for under 100$ and still have bragging rights.  The next
step would be interface a LCD Module and a some eeprom for scan storage and
make it portable so we can walk around and scan the books on the shelves
then dump it back to the PC.

{Original Message removed}

'[OT] Re: Multiplexing Seven Segment Displays'
1997\09\16@071029 by Pasi T Mustalahti

picon face
On Tue, 16 Sep 1997, Mike Smith wrote:

> On 16 Sep 97 at 9:24, Pasi T Mustalahti wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> > (No, I'm not giving the schema out before Xmas :)
>
> Why Xmas?

PTM: I have decided to make this project before Xmas to be a present for
myself. It is a prosessor card to an older ARP -telephone (made by Nihon
Dengyo for Mocoma )to make it work as a handheld 2m HAM phone.

> MikeS
> <mikesmith_oz@nosp*m.relaymail.net>
> (remove the you know what before replying)
>

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
PTM, pasi.mustalahtiSTOPspamspamKILLspamutu.fi, @spam@ptmusta.....spamspamutu.fi, http://www.utu.fi/~ptmusta
Lab.ins. (mikrotuki) ATK-keskus/Mat.Luon.Tdk                    OH1HEK
Lab.engineer (PC support) Computer Center                       OI7234
Mail: Turun Yliopisto / Fysla, Vesilinnantie 5, 20014
Pt 02-3336669, FAX 02-3335632 (Pk 02-2387010, NMT 049-555577)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

'[OT] Re: Barcode and the PIC'
1997\09\16@114847 by David W. Duley

picon face
In a message dated 97-09-16 07:08:35 EDT, you write:

<<
 I like the looks of that chip - it looks to be available locally and is
only 25$ or so in single quantitys.  I found a wand at a surplus place and
it is only 25$ or so.  I feel that with a basic Stamp and a weekend or two I
could build a wedge for under 100$ and still have bragging rights.  The next
step would be interface a LCD Module and a some eeprom for scan storage and
make it portable so we can walk around and scan the books on the shelves
then dump it back to the PC. >>

Last I checked, comercial taiwanese units were about $100!
The one I saw came with the wand and an interface to the PC keyboard.

Dave Duley

'[OT] Test message... please ignore'
1997\09\16@135758 by eric.schlaepfer

flavicon
face
Just trying to figure out a duplicate posts problem...

'[OT] LCD "busy" signal'
1997\09\16@144944 by Ed VanderPloeg

flavicon
face
I'm trying to use a PIC to drive a standard, run-of-the-mill, LCD display,
and am having trouble understanding the operation of the "busy flag".  The
model is an Optrex DMC-20481 (or something like that) with an
industry-standard Hitachi HD44780 controller.  Some important bits were
lost in the manual's translation from Japanese, so I'm left a little
confused.  After sending a command or data byte to the LCD I think you can
do 1 of 2 things before sending the next:

1. Wait a worst-case period of time before sending the next byte (not a
problem).
2. Read the "busy" flag before sending the next byte (problem).

For efficiency I'm trying to wait for the busy signal as described in the
databook but it's not working as expected.  Seems like the LCD is forever
busy.

First of all, this busy signal is intended for use as I've described above,
yes?  (or is it a busy signal for the 4-bit interface mode only?)  Next,
when reading a byte from the LCD the PIC is still in control of the
"enable" signal, correct? (i.e. it's not driven by the LCD).  Here's my
psuedo-code sequence for waiting for the LCD:

1. Set TRIS register for LCD connection to input, control lines output.
2. Set the "data/command" line to low to indicate a command
3. Set the "read/write" to high to indicate a read
4. Set "data ready" high, wait a NOP (16MHz clock) for the LCD to spit out
the byte
5. Read in the LCD data byte to W
6. Pull the "data ready" signal low again
7. AND W with 0x80 (busy flag is bit 7)
8. If zero, it's not busy and we can continue, otherwise wait and read busy
flag again.

But this seems to hang and think the LCD is forever busy.  Ideas?

-Ed V.

1997\09\16@151438 by Martin R. Green

picon face
Ed, I don't have the answer for you, but I bet you can find it here:

  http://www.paranoia.com/~filipg/HTML/LINK/F_Tech_LCD.html


CIAO - Martin R. Green
spamelimar.....spam.....bigfoot.com

----------
From:   Ed VanderPloeg[SMTP:evanderploeg.....spamCREO.COM]
Sent:   Tuesday, September 16, 1997 2:29 PM
To:     KILLspamPICLISTspam_OUTspammitvma.mit.edu
Subject:        [OT] LCD "busy" signal

I'm trying to use a PIC to drive a standard, run-of-the-mill, LCD display,
and am having trouble understanding the operation of the "busy flag".  The
model is an Optrex DMC-20481 (or something like that) with an
industry-standard Hitachi HD44780 controller.  Some important bits were
lost in the manual's translation from Japanese, so I'm left a little
confused.  After sending a command or data byte to the LCD I think you can
do 1 of 2 things before sending the next:

1. Wait a worst-case period of time before sending the next byte (not a
problem).
2. Read the "busy" flag before sending the next byte (problem).

For efficiency I'm trying to wait for the busy signal as described in the
databook but it's not working as expected.  Seems like the LCD is forever
busy.

First of all, this busy signal is intended for use as I've described above,
yes?  (or is it a busy signal for the 4-bit interface mode only?)  Next,
when reading a byte from the LCD the PIC is still in control of the
"enable" signal, correct? (i.e. it's not driven by the LCD).  Here's my
psuedo-code sequence for waiting for the LCD:

1. Set TRIS register for LCD connection to input, control lines output.
2. Set the "data/command" line to low to indicate a command
3. Set the "read/write" to high to indicate a read
4. Set "data ready" high, wait a NOP (16MHz clock) for the LCD to spit out
the byte
5. Read in the LCD data byte to W
6. Pull the "data ready" signal low again
7. AND W with 0x80 (busy flag is bit 7)
8. If zero, it's not busy and we can continue, otherwise wait and read busy
flag again.

But this seems to hang and think the LCD is forever busy.  Ideas?

-Ed V.

1997\09\16@165606 by Andy Kunz

flavicon
face
At 03:05 PM 9/16/97 -0400, you wrote:

Better yet, check out http://www.hantronix.com

They have Optrex replacements as well as their own products, at prices
1/3-1/2 the Optrex equivalent.  Even small quantities are lower-priced
(about $12.00 for one 2x16).

I spec their stuff in all my designs.

Andy


>Ed, I don't have the answer for you, but I bet you can find it here:
>
>   http://www.paranoia.com/~filipg/HTML/LINK/F_Tech_LCD.html

==================================================================
Andy Kunz - Montana Design - 409 S 6th St - Phillipsburg, NJ 08865
         Hardware & Software for Industry & R/C Hobbies
       "Go fast, turn right, and keep the wet side down!"
==================================================================

1997\09\16@170531 by Ed VanderPloeg

flavicon
face
Excellent site!  This led me to the following, which has PIC-specific
examples:

http://www.iaehv.nl/users/pouweha/lcd.htm

Thanks!

-Ed V.

At 12:22 PM 9/16/97 PST, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

1997\09\16@173222 by STEENKAMP [M.ING E&E]

flavicon
picon face
Hi,

I'm currently working with a 2x16 display and I have opted to not read
the display and simply wait the maximum time (The application is not
time critical, so I save one IO). But just to check: You should not read
the busy flag between the two 4 bit operations, it is only valid after
the whole operation is completed.

I have the Hitachi LCD display modules data book here with me and it
sucks!!  The translation is deplorable plus its full of errors.  They
should really consider a better translator.

Niki

1997\09\16@175516 by Dave Reinagel

picon face
Greetings,
       Just to let you know, there is a bug in the data provided in

http://www.iaehv.nl/users/pouweha/lcd.htm

in section 4.1.3.9.

This routine is suppose to get address counter content, but as shown, it
will always return zero.  To correct this, the last 5 instructions
could be changed to:

       BSF     STATUS, RP0     ; Select Register page 1
       CLRF    LCD_DATA_TRIS   ; Set PORTB for output
       BCF     STATUS, RP0     ; Select Register page 0
       RETURN

Dave Reinagel

'[OT] 68HC11'
1997\09\16@202247 by Eric Rossi

flavicon
face
>
> Hi, I had like to begin with 68HC11 E2 and F1 (or A1) in single and
> >extended mode (with EPROM). Can somebody give me so information? Thanks
> >a lot.
> David
>
David, EMAC has a real nice 68HC11F1 board complete with buffalo monitor
and assembler for $129.95. Basic is an option as well as C. Check out their
webb site at http://www.emacinc.com.

Eric

1997\09\16@202255 by Eric Rossi

flavicon
face
----------
>
> Hi, I had like to begin with 68HC11 E2 and F1 (or A1) in single and
> >extended mode (with EPROM). Can somebody give me so information? Thanks
> >a lot.

David, EMAC has a real nice 68HC11F1 board complete with buffalo monitor
and assembler for $129.95. Basic is an option as well as C. Check out their
webb site at http://www.emacinc.com.

Eric

'[OT] LCD "busy" signal'
1997\09\17@024529 by Fowler, Gary

flavicon
face
part 0 759 bytes
Gary.

--------------------------------------------
Email: EraseMEGary.FowlerspamBeGonespamKILLspamdsto.defence.gov.au
Phone: +61 8 8259 5767  Fax: +61 8 8259 5672
Defence Science & Technology Organisation
PO Box 1500, Salisbury, South Australia 5108
--------------------------------------------



Date:    Tue, 16 Sep 1997 11:29:49 -0700
From:    Ed VanderPloeg <RemoveMEevanderploegspamBeGonespamspamCREO.COM>
Subject: [OT] LCD "busy" signal

I'm trying to use a PIC to drive a standard, run-of-the-mill, LCD  
display,
and am having trouble understanding the operation of the "busy flag".
 

        <snip>

For efficiency I'm trying to wait for the busy signal as described in the
databook but it's not working as expected.  Seems like the LCD is forever
busy.




1997\09\17@063852 by Alec Myers

flavicon
face
>I'm currently working with a 2x16 display and I have opted to not read
>the display and simply wait the maximum time (The application is not
>time critical, so I save one IO). But just to check: You should not read
>the busy flag between the two 4 bit operations, it is only valid after
>the whole operation is completed.


Surely you *have* to read the busy flag between the two 4-bit reads?
'Busy' is bit7 which appears after the first read. After the second,
you're looking at bits 0-3.

It works OK for me like this, anyway.



Alec

'[OT] Power supply connector'
1997\09\17@095724 by Luis Fernandez

flavicon
face
       Really out of topic, but need help ! :-\

I'm looking for a plug connector used in a telecom device manufactured in
the US. The device is a SMART-1 "Programmable Communications Controller"
manufactured by MITEL for TELESOURCE.

It uses an external wall-powersupply transformer which has this rare
connector. This is similar to the one used in standard PCs power supply
having 3 ways but smaller. Excuse my ASCII art, but the profile is like this:

               |<--10mm--->|
               -------------
               | O       O |  Height is 10mm
               |     O     |
                \_________/


Any idea or pointer to were to buy some of this (about 100pcs) ?

I'm afraid that this is a custom made connector !

Thank you


Luis Fernandez Cormenzana
RadioBit Sistemas, S.L.
       Vehicle fleet control systems
       Patrol presence controllers

Fax/Tel:+34-6-585 64 57
       +34-6-680 26 33
e-mail: @spam@radiobitspamspamdragonet.es
http://www.dragonet.es/users/radiobit

1997\09\17@121548 by )

flavicon
face
Luis,

Looks like the same connector Hayes used to use on their old
Smartmodems. Wallwart put out 13.5 VAC and had a ground pin. Middle pin
on connector is connected to ground pin on wallwart. Wallwart I have
says "Made in Hatti". Threw the modem away a long time ago. Hope this is
of some help.

-Frank


Frank Richterkessing

TakeThisOuTFRANK.RICHTERKESSINGKILLspamspam@spam@APPL.GE.COM


>                 |<--10mm--->|
>                 -------------
>                 | O       O |  Height is 10mm
>                 |     O     |
>                  \_________/
>
>
>

'[OT] Monitor Sync. Info?'
1997\09\17@141348 by Aydin Yesildirek

flavicon
face
Is there an internet site where I can gather some info to regarding
syncronizing a monitor in a project requiring to convert 26kHz
horizontal frequency to somewhere around 16kHz via a micro (pic of
course)?

TIA

Aydin

'[OT] 68HC11'
1997\09\17@145645 by Mark Hellman

picon face
New Micros Inc. has some very nice SBCs as well. They have a custom 68HC11
that has FORTH in it. prices start at <$50. For more info:
http://www.newmicros.com

Mark

{Original Message removed}

'[OT] LCD "busy" signal'
1997\09\17@195200 by anick

flavicon
face
Well I am using the Optrex 16117A 16x1 LCD.
I could not get it to work at all with the 4-bit mode described in the
data book. So I am using a 74HCT164E Serial Shift register to drive the
thing with ah 16C57 with only 7 I/O lines, I'm sure I could use less,
but I have not tried it. Anyway I connected one of the I/O line to the
ouput of the Bit-7 register for the "BUSY" flag from the LCD. I also
found that the software was much simpler this way. Of course I cannot
read any of the LCD data, but I dont need to for my application.

Alan Nickerson

'[OT] Acronym'
1997\09\17@230825 by Andrew Russell Morris

picon face
>PTM: My opinion about the price of a wand is similar. I can't understand
>why a barcode pen containing a HP HEDS1000, an operation amplifier and
>some discretes plus a cable plus a box containing a prosessor can cost
>together about 1500 FIM = 300$. A mouse costs about 6$ and it is
>mechanically mych more complicated. Even a scanner is cheaper. A good B/W

What does PTM mean? That one wasn't on the list that was published recently.

1997\09\17@231313 by Shane Nelson

flavicon
face
> What does PTM mean? That one wasn't on the list that was published recently.


*grin*
I'm waiting for someone to ask what [ot] stands for :)

-Shane.

1997\09\18@005417 by dorothy_dix

flavicon
face
On 17 Sep 97 at 21:15, Shane Nelson wrote:

> > What does PTM mean? That one wasn't on the list that was published recently.
>
>
> *grin*
> I'm waiting for someone to ask what [ot] stands for :)
>
What does [OT] stand for?

Dorothy Dix
MikeS
<mikesmith_oz@nosp*m.relaymail.net>
(remove the you know what before replying)

1997\09\18@005424 by dorothy_dix

flavicon
face
On 17 Sep 97 at 21:15, Shane Nelson wrote:

> > What does PTM mean? That one wasn't on the list that was published recently.
>
>
> *grin*
> I'm waiting for someone to ask what [ot] stands for :)
>
What does [ot] stand for?

Dorothy Dix

1997\09\18@005850 by dorothy_dix

flavicon
face
On 17 Sep 97 at 21:15, Shane Nelson wrote:

> > What does PTM mean? That one wasn't on the list that was published recently.
>
>
> *grin*
> I'm waiting for someone to ask what [ot] stands for :)
>
> -Shane.
>

What does [OT] mean?

Dorothy Dix
















For those of you who are ignorant of the pseudonym, it refers to a
politician known for asking 'soft' or desired questions of a minister
on her side of politics, thus taking up question time.  Probably
Westminister system.

Mike (the 19th one!)

'[ot] That's what you get trying to be cleve'
1997\09\18@011721 by mikesmith_oz.nosp*am

flavicon
face
Sorry guys - it just seemed appropriate.  I won't try it again :(
(My mailer said it bounced twice... go figure.)
MikeS
<mikesmith_oz@nosp*m.relaymail.net>
(remove the you know what before replying)

'[OT] 68HC11'
1997\09\18@035719 by David BALDWIN

flavicon
face
Ok, thanks a lot for those who answered to my question. But I am
looking for project pages, "homebuild". Thanks a lot.

'[OT] Acronym FYA'
1997\09\18@130359 by webmaster

flavicon
face
FAIK OT means Off Topic.
It's SOP to RTFM or the FAQ, otherwise FWIW everything gets FUBAR.
IANAL so this is IMHO
TTFN
-------------------------------------------------------------
| Krys Wallbank                    | Take your business to    |
| Webmaster and Technical Manager  | the streets of Vancouver |
| Ultranet Internet Corporation    |                          |
| http://www.ultranet.ca           | http://bike.ultranet.ca  |
-------------------------------------------------------------



-----Original Message-----
From:   Shane Nelson [SMTP:.....iRemoveMEspamCHEETAH.SPOTS.AB.CA]
Sent:   Wednesday, September 17, 1997 8:16 PM
To:     KILLspamPICLISTspamTakeThisOuTMITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject:        Re: [OT] Acronym

> What does PTM mean? That one wasn't on the list that was published recently.


*grin*
I'm waiting for someone to ask what [ot] stands for :)

-Shane.

1997\09\18@224944 by Andrew Russell Morris

picon face
At 09:15 PM 9/17/97 -0600, you wrote:
>> What does PTM mean? That one wasn't on the list that was published
recently.
>
>
>*grin*
>I'm waiting for someone to ask what [ot] stands for :)
>
>-Shane.

I got a lot of smart-ass answers, but nobody told me what PTM means.

1997\09\18@235656 by tjaart

flavicon
face
Andrew Russell Morris wrote:
>
> At 09:15 PM 9/17/97 -0600, you wrote:
> >> What does PTM mean? That one wasn't on the list that was published
> recently.
> >
> >
> >*grin*
> >I'm waiting for someone to ask what [ot] stands for :)
> >
> >-Shane.
>
> I got a lot of smart-ass answers, but nobody told me what PTM means.

Probably Too Much
PICs Trouble Me
Particularly Troublesome Motion
Petty Talk Maddens <G>

--
Friendly Regards

Tjaart van der Walt
TakeThisOuTtjaartspamspam_OUTwasp.co.za
________________________________________________________
|        WASP International   http://wasp.co.za          |
|   R&D Engineer : GSM peripheral services development   |
|Vehicle tracking | Telemetry systems | GSM data transfer|
|Voice : +27-(0)11-622-8686  |  Fax : +27-(0)11-622-8973 |
|             WGS-84 : 26010.52'S 28006.19'E             |
|________________________________________________________|

'[OT] PTM Acronym'
1997\09\19@071640 by Dominic Peterson

picon face
>Andrew Russell Morris wrote:
>> What does PTM mean? That one wasn't on the list that was published
>> recently.
>
> I got a lot of smart-ass answers, but nobody told me what PTM means.

Andrew,

Since everyone else seems to be having too much fun playing with the
question to actually give you an answer.

PTM is what Pasi T. Mustalahti <RemoveMEptmustaspamspamSTOPspamutu.fi> uses to prefix any
of his comments in replies.  Notice it here in his signature block:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
PTM, .....pasi.mustalahtiEraseMEspamutu.fi, spamBeGoneptmustaspamRemoveMEutu.fi, http://www.utu.fi/~ptmusta
Lab.ins. (mikrotuki) ATK-keskus/Mat.Luon.Tdk                    OH1HEK
Lab.engineer (PC support) Computer Center                       OI7234
Mail: Turun Yliopisto / Fysla, Vesilinnantie 5, 20014
Pt 02-3336669, FAX 02-3335632 (Pk 02-2387010, NMT 049-555577)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

That's all there is to it.

Regards,

Dominic


-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Dominic Peterson                           Email: .....d.petersonEraseMEspamqut.edu.au
Systems Analyst                               Ph: +61 (07) 3864 4286
Queensland University of Technology          Fax: +61 (07) 3864 4490
Brisbane, Australia

"Dominic is a fool and his views not only don't represent those of QUT
or any of it's employees, but furthermore we refuse to admit he even
works for the University, let alone that he knows anything relevant.
Don't trust him and don't lend him money."

'[OT] LCD "busy" signal'
1997\09\19@071652 by STEENKAMP [M.ING E&E]

flavicon
picon face
Hi,

> >I'm currently working with a 2x16 display and I have opted to not read
> >the display and simply wait the maximum time (The application is not
> >time critical, so I save one IO). But just to check: You should not read
> >the busy flag between the two 4 bit operations, it is only valid after
> >the whole operation is completed.
>
>
> Surely you *have* to read the busy flag between the two 4-bit reads?
> 'Busy' is bit7 which appears after the first read. After the second,
> you're looking at bits 0-3.
>
> It works OK for me like this, anyway.
>
I think you misunderstood me.  I meant that, when you write something to
the LCD, you can first check the busy flag (which requires 2 reads),
then write both nibbles to the LCD.  Don't try to check the busy flag
between the writing of the two nibbles.

Niki

'[OT] Acronym'
1997\09\19@090706 by Pasi T Mustalahti

picon face
On Fri, 19 Sep 1997, N STEENKAMP [M.ING E&E] wrote:

> Hi,
> > I got a lot of smart-ass answers, but nobody told me what PTM means.
> Its the guy's inititials.
> Niki
>
PTM: Yeah, you are right.
I have had this habit for so long that I didn't see anything odd in it.
It started in a R&D project where we documented just about everything and
signed it with our initials.
I didn't read these acronyn-mails until now and now the best part has gone
;)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
PTM, spampasi.mustalahtispam_OUTspam@spam@utu.fi, spamptmusta@spam@spamSTOPspamutu.fi, http://www.utu.fi/~ptmusta
Lab.ins. (mikrotuki) ATK-keskus/Mat.Luon.Tdk                    OH1HEK
Lab.engineer (PC support) Computer Center                       OI7234
Mail: Turun Yliopisto / Fysla, Vesilinnantie 5, 20014
Pt 02-3336669, FAX 02-3335632 (Pk 02-2387010, NMT 049-555577)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

1997\09\19@091518 by tjaart

flavicon
face
Pasi T Mustalahti wrote:
>
> On Fri, 19 Sep 1997, N STEENKAMP [M.ING E&E] wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> > > I got a lot of smart-ass answers, but nobody told me what PTM means.
> > Its the guy's inititials.
> > Niki
> >
> PTM: Yeah, you are right.
> I have had this habit for so long that I didn't see anything odd in it.
> It started in a R&D project where we documented just about everything and
> signed it with our initials.
> I didn't read these acronyn-mails until now and now the best part has gone
> ;)

That must explain RTFM - Reginald Theodore Frederick McDonald <VBG>

--
Friendly Regards

Tjaart van der Walt
spamBeGonetjaartspamBeGonespam@spam@wasp.co.za
________________________________________________________
|        WASP International   http://wasp.co.za          |
|   R&D Engineer : GSM peripheral services development   |
|Vehicle tracking | Telemetry systems | GSM data transfer|
|Voice : +27-(0)11-622-8686  |  Fax : +27-(0)11-622-8973 |
|             WGS-84 : 26010.52'S 28006.19'E             |
|________________________________________________________|

1997\09\19@093500 by Martin R. Green

picon face
Pass the Mustard?

----------
From:   Andrew Russell Morris[SMTP:RemoveMEamorrisRemoveMEspamRemoveMEMINDSPRING.COM]
Sent:   Thursday, September 18, 1997 10:10 PM
To:     PICLISTKILLspamspamspammitvma.mit.edu
Subject:        Re: [OT] Acronym

At 09:15 PM 9/17/97 -0600, you wrote:
>> What does PTM mean? That one wasn't on the list that was published
recently.
>
>
>*grin*
>I'm waiting for someone to ask what [ot] stands for :)
>
>-Shane.

I got a lot of smart-ass answers, but nobody told me what PTM means.

1997\09\19@093644 by Pasi T Mustalahti

picon face
On Fri, 19 Sep 1997, Tjaart van der Walt wrote:

> Pasi T Mustalahti wrote:
> >
> > On Fri, 19 Sep 1997, N STEENKAMP [M.ING E&E] wrote:
> >
> > > Hi,
> > > > I got a lot of smart-ass answers, but nobody told me what PTM means.
> > > Its the guy's inititials.
> > > Niki
> > >
> > PTM: Yeah, you are right.
> > I have had this habit for so long that I didn't see anything odd in it.
> > It started in a R&D project where we documented just about everything and
> > signed it with our initials.
> > I didn't read these acronyn-mails until now and now the best part has gone
> > ;)
>
> That must explain RTFM - Reginald Theodore Frederick McDonald <VBG>
PTM: Not all acronyms are initials. Take for example
ISDN -It Still Does Nothing
NTSC -Never The Same Color


{Quote hidden}

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
PTM, TakeThisOuTpasi.mustalahtispam_OUTspamutu.fi, KILLspamptmusta.....spamTakeThisOuTutu.fi, http://www.utu.fi/~ptmusta
Lab.ins. (mikrotuki) ATK-keskus/Mat.Luon.Tdk                    OH1HEK
Lab.engineer (PC support) Computer Center                       OI7234
Mail: Turun Yliopisto / Fysla, Vesilinnantie 5, 20014
Pt 02-3336669, FAX 02-3335632 (Pk 02-2387010, NMT 049-555577)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

1997\09\19@110518 by Matt Bonner

flavicon
face
Pasi T Mustalahti wrote:
{Quote hidden}

How about a real one - the standard for scanners: TWAIN stands for
Technology Without An Interesting Name.  Yes, really.
--Matt

1997\09\19@133212 by mikesmith_oz.nosp*am

flavicon
face
On 19 Sep 97 at 16:34, Pasi T Mustalahti wrote:


> PTM: Not all acronyms are initials. Take for example
> ISDN -It Still Does Nothing

Integration Subscribers Don't Need.
Or our local telecom spells it
I$DN - with good reason! :(
MikeS
<mikesmith_oz@nosp*m.relaymail.net>
(remove the you know what before replying)

'[OT] PTM Acronym'
1997\09\19@133221 by mikesmith_oz.nosp*am

flavicon
face
On 19 Sep 97 at 16:32, Dominic Peterson wrote:

> >Andrew Russell Morris wrote:
> >> What does PTM mean? That one wasn't on the list that was published
> >> recently.
> >
> > I got a lot of smart-ass answers, but nobody told me what PTM means.
>
> Andrew,
>
> Since everyone else seems to be having too much fun playing with the
> question to actually give you an answer.
>
> PTM is what Pasi T. Mustalahti <TakeThisOuTptmustaEraseMEspamRemoveMEutu.fi> uses to prefix any
> of his comments in replies.  Notice it here in his signature block:

The old fido readers used to offer it as an automatic reply prefix -
like -
MS> etc etc etc
Haven't seen it for a loooong time



> "Dominic is a fool and his views not only don't represent those of
> QUT or any of it's employees, but furthermore we refuse to admit he
> even works for the University, let alone that he knows anything
> relevant. Don't trust him and don't lend him money."
>

Thats categorical. <g>
MikeS
<mikesmith_oz@nosp*m.relaymail.net>
(remove the you know what before replying)

'[OT] Acronym'
1997\09\19@211526 by Greg Newberry

picon face
Or how about the SRAM Cache on Intel based PC motherboards. COAST cache.
Cache On A Stick... Really!!
--
-------------------------------------------------
|  Greg Newberry    spam_OUTnewberryRemoveMEspam.....cyberhighway.net   |
|  WB7DUO QRP-L #760                            |
|  NorCal #1899  CQC #465  AR-QRP #65           |
-------------------------------------------------

'[OT] VCR Workings'
1997\09\22@023859 by Jacques Vrey

flavicon
face
I'm looking for information again, yet again - off topic and I hope
someone can help me.
I noticed a few threads on vcr's and my interest has been re-kindled.

Can anyone give me info on "How does a vcr work?", I've been looking
around for decent info but I can't seem to find what I want. You can
add a little "How does a TV work?" to clarify things if you like.

"Well it's a big tape recorder that can record pictures and sound"
is a bit sketchy. A bit more detail will be appreciated.

Thanks.



Jacques Vrey
Iscor Steel Profile Products
Newcastle
South Africa
Tel: +27 (0)3431 48759
spamjvreyKILLspamspamKILLspamit.new.iscorltd.co.za

1997\09\22@025358 by Andrew Warren

face
flavicon
face
Jacques Vrey <spamPICLISTspam_OUTspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU> wrote:

> I'm looking for information again, yet again - off topic and I hope
> someone can help me. I noticed a few threads on vcr's and my
> interest has been re-kindled.
>
> Can anyone give me info on "How does a vcr work?", I've been looking
> around for decent info but I can't seem to find what I want. You can
> add a little "How does a TV work?" to clarify things if you like.
>
> "Well it's a big tape recorder that can record pictures and sound"
> is a bit sketchy. A bit more detail will be appreciated.

Jacques:

One minute spent searching the web with AltaVista (using the search
phrase "vcr work") produced a link to the following VERY
comprehensive web site, which "has been designed to provide you with
a clear understanding of the basic principles of video, and the
components which form part of today's audio/video experience":

   http://www.magnavox.com
         /electreference
         /videohandbook
         /introduction.html

You'll have to manually combine those four lines; the entire URL
wouldn't fit on one line in my e-mail composer.

-Andy

=== Meet other PICLIST members at the Embedded Systems Conference:
=== 6:30 pm on Wednesday, 1 October, at Bytecraft Limited's booth.
===
=== For more information on the Embedded Systems Conference,
=== see: http://www.embedsyscon.com/

=== Andrew Warren - STOPspamfastfwdspam_OUTspamspamBeGoneix.netcom.com
=== Fast Forward Engineering - Vista, California
=== http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/2499

1997\09\22@030217 by Jacques Vrey

flavicon
face
{Quote hidden}

Thanks

Thanks, following your advice, I just tried that and got good
results.
I tried it earlier with probably every concievable combination of
words but those, and came up with very little of use. I think it's a
classic case of less is more.
Thanks again and please excuse my stupidity.

regards



Jacques Vrey
Iscor Steel Profile Products
Newcastle
South Africa
Tel: +27 (0)3431 48759
EraseMEjvreyspamKILLspamit.new.iscorltd.co.za

'[OT] plotting a pc board'
1997\09\22@161728 by Joe Little

flavicon
face
    Does anybody else do work this fine with success?
    ----------Reply--------

    There are different classes of PWB vendors.  I will NEVER NEVER NEVER buy
    from low budget PWB vendors again.

    Typical PCB fabrication limits (without paying extra).
    6 mil (thousandths of an inch) run width.
    6 mil spacing between copper features.
    12 mil plated holes.

    These sizes permit you to run traces between the pads of (50 mil pitch)
    surface mount IC's.  For general habits, I usually try to stay with 10 mil
    runs, 8 mil spacing, and 20 mil drills as minimums.

    Joe

'[OT] VCR Workings'
1997\09\22@170211 by Shirazi Latif

picon face
Check out INTEC College SOUTH AFRICA, they have a correspondance course on
VCR Repair

SHIRAZI LATIF
Middelburg
S A
EraseMEshiraziRemoveMEspamiafrica.com

{Original Message removed}

'[OT] some acronyms'
1997\09\23@074313 by Pasi T Mustalahti

picon face
While we are working with PIC and not any supercomputer:
kips -Kilo Instructions Per Second
pb   -Program Bytes

This came to me when I was cooking up a time critical piece of program.
Having Xtal of x.xx MHz the processor made yyy kips and I had to make a
program that spent zzz pb between two points of it.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
PTM, .....pasi.mustalahtispamspam_OUTutu.fi, @spam@ptmustaEraseMEspamspamutu.fi, http://www.utu.fi/~ptmusta
Lab.ins. (mikrotuki) ATK-keskus/Mat.Luon.Tdk                    OH1HEK
Lab.engineer (PC support) Computer Center                       OI7234
Mail: Turun Yliopisto / Fysla, Vesilinnantie 5, 20014
Pt 02-3336669, FAX 02-3335632 (Pk 02-2387010, NMT 049-555577)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

'[OT] - 8051 simulator, mailing list...'
1997\09\24@071043 by jasper

flavicon
face
Hi,

If someone knows of any free simulator for 8051 or mailing list please
let me know. Thx in advance.

-Jasper

e-mail : jasperTakeThisOuTspamKILLspamhclt.com

'[OT] Radio transmission'
1997\09\24@155130 by Giorgio Alboni

flavicon
face
I need to make a people search system. I'd like tu use a 400 mW trasmitter
(module at 433 MHz already made). The system must be made from more
trasmitter/relay to assure a long distance trasmission. Some suggestion to
resolve the trasmission conflict (all trasmitter with the same frequency)
and  assure reception (receiver can't transmit).
My idea is: the master trasmitter (link to a personal computer) send the
message, all relay that receive the message wait fo some mS than send again
the message.
Each trasmitter must attach a self number for assure rebounds of the message.
Can it work?
Thanks in Advance.


===================================================
Alboni Giorgio
Faenza (Ra) ITALY
E-Mail: RemoveMErac1337TakeThisOuTspamracine.ravenna.it

www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Heights/5444
(Last Update: 19/06/97)
===================================================

1997\09\24@185639 by Harrison Cooper

flavicon
face
since I see you are in Italy, may not be applicable.  BUT....in the
states, pagers are dirt cheap and so is the service.  Radio Shack even
sells a limited range paging system.  Why re-invent the wheel, and you
can buy off the shelf product, unless of course its for fun, or you
really are trying to do something different that cannot be currently
implemented by these products.  Or cannot because of other limitations
being in a country that limits what is available here.

just my  .02 worth
{Quote hidden}

'[OT] BinHex 4.0'
1997\09\24@202323 by Lee Hewitt

picon face
Hello All,
            Can anyone tell me where I can get a copy of the conversion
program BinHex 4.0 (or an equivalent) which is able to convert .MIM files to
a readable format ?.
Many thanks and best wishes: Lee Hewitt (Manchester ENGLAND)

1997\09\24@232231 by Hisham Abboud

flavicon
face
Lee,

At 08:22 PM 9/24/97 -0400, you wrote:

>             Can anyone tell me where I can get a copy of the conversion
>program BinHex 4.0 (or an equivalent) which is able to convert .MIM files to
>a readable format ?.
> Many thanks and best wishes: Lee Hewitt (Manchester ENGLAND)

BinHex 4.0 doesn't convert .MIM files.  It converts to and from
the BinHex file format that is used when sending Macintosh files.

If that is still what you want, let me know and I'll email to you.
You can also find it on the web, but make sure you get BinHex 4.0,
not 5.0!!

Cheers.

                         Hisham.


--------------------------
Hisham A. Abboud
Cedrus Corporation.         On the Web: http://www.cedrus.com

1997\09\25@073437 by Alan G. Smith

flavicon
face
WinZip can deal with BinHex files.
http://www.winzip.com

+---------------------------------------------------------
| Alan G. Smith
| ags.....spam@spam@poboxes.com
| http://www.innovatus.com/ags

-----Original Message-----
From: Lee Hewitt <spamBeGoneLHewitt104spamspam_OUTAOL.COM>
To: EraseMEPICLIST.....spamMITVMA.MIT.EDU <spamPICLISTKILLspamspam@spam@MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Date: Wednesday, September 24, 1997 8:24 PM
Subject: [OT] BinHex 4.0



>Hello All,
>             Can anyone tell me where I can get a copy of the conversion
>program BinHex 4.0 (or an equivalent) which is able to convert .MIM files to
>a readable format ?.
> Many thanks and best wishes: Lee Hewitt (Manchester ENGLAND)
>
>

'[OT] humor'
1997\09\25@162321 by John Payson

picon face
> >  3) Be SURE your computed address is limited to
> >the number of table elements you have.  Otherwise, you might vector into
> >la-la land.  Hope this helps.
>  ^^^^^
> You know you've been programming too long when you start wondering why unused
>  memory would be filled with the value 26....




Why do programmers confuse Christmas and Halloween?

















Because 31oct equals 25dec !

1997\09\25@162321 by John Payson

picon face
> >  3) Be SURE your computed address is limited to
> >the number of table elements you have.  Otherwise, you might vector into
> >la-la land.  Hope this helps.
>  ^^^^^
> You know you've been programming too long when you start wondering why unused
>  memory would be filled with the value 26....




Why do programmers confuse Christmas and Halloween?

















Because 31oct equals 25dec !

1997\09\26@025622 by mikesmith_ozNOSP*M

flavicon
face
On 25 Sep 97 at 15:12, John Payson wrote:

> > >  3) Be SURE your computed address is limited to
> > >the number of table elements you have.  Otherwise, you might vector into
> > >la-la land.  Hope this helps.
> >  ^^^^^
> > You know you've been programming too long when you start wondering why
unused
> >  memory would be filled with the value 26....
>
>

Duh!

>
>
> Why do programmers confuse Christmas and Halloween?
>
>
> Because 31oct equals 25dec !
>

I *knew* bases were involved - but the times I use octal could be
counted on 1 hand of a careless butcher - I was looking for a hex
tie-in - you know - witch-craft/hex?  The OCTober part went straight
by - I was looking at 10.
Good one...
MikeS
<mikesmith_ozNOSP*M.relaymail.net>
(remove the you know what before replying)

'[OT] - Blister packing'
1997\09\26@111617 by Martin R. Green

picon face
The "Man from Glad" has been the advertising spokesperson for Glad Wrap
(and Glad storage bags) here in North America for at least 20 years.
Several different actors have played the part over the years, in a white
suit, white shirt, white tie, and pure white hair.  A very stupid
character, but instantly memorable, so I guess it worked.

I guess the answer to my question is that, no, you don't have him down
under.


CIAO - Martin R. Green
elimarspamspamTakeThisOuTbigfoot.com

----------
From:   Martin / Andrew Farag (ISE)[SMTP:RemoveMEa.martinRemoveMEspamSTUDENT.CANBERRA.EDU.AU]
Sent:   Friday, September 26, 1997 10:40 AM
To:     TakeThisOuTPICLIST@spam@spam@spam@mitvma.mit.edu
Subject:        Re: OT - Blister packing

> Actually, I think Glad Wrap is an American product that went
international.
>  We certainly have it here it Canada (Do you guys have that foolish
albino
> Man from Glad too?).

Exqueeze me... Albino man? Who's he? Im in Australia.

"Eagles may soar in the clouds, but weasels never get sucked into jet
engines."
               -- Jason Hutchison

'[OT] ?: fluid measurement'
1997\09\26@112617 by Martin R. Green

picon face
Sorry, I accidentally deleted the original message.

Pasi has been asking for a "new" way to measure fuel flow in his car.

OK, so how about this?  A while ago we were discussing a non-invasive fluid
flow measuring technique here on the PICLIST.  The idea was that ultrasonic
sound was injected into a pipe or hose, and upline and downline sensors
measured the intensity of that signal a short distance from the source.  By
comparing the relative intensities from the two pickup sensors, the flow
direction and speed can be accurately determined since sound transfer will
improve in the direction of the flow, and decrease in the opposite
direction.

Even though you are only interested in unidirectional flow, you would still
probably need two pickup sensors since the calculations are done with
relative values, not absolute ones.

Different enough for you?

Martin R. Green
TakeThisOuTelimarspamspambigfoot.com

1997\09\26@123310 by John Payson

picon face
> OK, so how about this?  A while ago we were discussing a non-invasive fluid
> flow measuring technique here on the PICLIST.  The idea was that ultrasonic
> sound was injected into a pipe or hose, and upline and downline sensors
> measured the intensity of that signal a short distance from the source.  By
> comparing the relative intensities from the two pickup sensors, the flow
> direction and speed can be accurately determined since sound transfer will
> improve in the direction of the flow, and decrease in the opposite
> direction.


I would think accurate correlation between signal strength and fluid
velocity would be difficult.  Would it not be better to measure travel
time through the liquid?  The difference between upstream and downstream
travel times should be easily detectable and should easily correlate with
the speed of the liquid.

'[OT] Re: ?: fluid measurement'
1997\09\27@022401 by Mike Keitz

picon face
On Fri, 26 Sep 1997 13:22:14 -0800 Andrew Warren <KILLspamfastfwdKILLspamspamspamBeGoneIX.NETCOM.COM>
writes:
>
>I mean, think about it... If YOU were designing a fuel-consumption
>display for a fuel-injected car, would you get the information by
>installing two expensive flow-meters, measuring flow to the
>injectors and subtracting the flow back FROM the injectors, or would
>you go for the software-only method of simply accumulating the widths
>of the injector pulses and multiplying that by the known flow rate of
>each injector?
>
This is based on the assumption that the injectors are designed and built
to inject a known amount of fuel for a certain pulse width.  Which they
are.  The fuel pressure reaching the injectors is regulated by a
mechanical regulator and maybe double-checked by a sensor.  Other than
that, the connection from the computer's table of fuel delivery for
various operating conditions and the actual delivery of fuel is open
loop.  Some overall adjustment can be made from sensors like the exhaust
oxygen sensor.  When running properly, some oxygen leaves the engine
unburned.  If there is an excess of fuel the oxygen concentration will
drop, and fuel and CO leave unburned instead.  This is pollution.  Likely
this compensation is only done at idle, since most pollution tests are
only done at idle.

If you are trying to look for injector trouble by comparing the amount of
fuel the computer thinks it's allowing into the engine and the amount
that actually does go into the engine, a fuel flow sensor would be
required.  A good one for that would be the one on the gas pump when
refilling the tank.  It sould agree with the pulse-integrator "gallons
used".

'[OT] - Blister packing'
1997\09\27@100658 by mikesmith_ozNOSP*M

flavicon
face
On 26 Sep 97 at 11:07, Martin R. Green wrote:

> The "Man from Glad" has been the advertising spokesperson for Glad
> Wrap (and Glad storage bags) here in North America for at least 20
> years.
>  Several different actors have played the part over the years, in a
>  white
> suit, white shirt, white tie, and pure white hair.  A very stupid
> character, but instantly memorable, so I guess it worked.
>
> I guess the answer to my question is that, no, you don't have him
> down under.

That's right, and I'm real Glad about it! <groan>  We do have the
product though, albeit with different advertising.

> "Eagles may soar in the clouds, but weasels never get sucked into
> jet engines."
>                 -- Jason Hutchison
>
MikeS
<mikesmith_ozNOSP*M.relaymail.net>
(remove the you know what before replying)

'[OT] SmartCards'
1997\09\29@061630 by Herbert Baar

flavicon
face
Hi there

We plan to integrate a Smartcard-Reader in our system. We have
experience with "normal" memory Smartcards, but have no experience with
Smartcards with integrated processor. Can anyone tell me where to get
detailde information about this kind of smartcards? =:-)

kind regards
Ing. bernd Riegler
<spamBeGonebaarKILLspamspamcomputerhaus.at>

1997\09\29@073406 by obo (Ingenieria Fotonica)

flavicon
face
At 12:15 29/09/97 +0200, you wrote:
>We plan to integrate a Smartcard-Reader in our system. We have
>experience with "normal" memory Smartcards, but have no experience with
>Smartcards with integrated processor. Can anyone tell me where to get
>detailde information about this kind of smartcards? =:-)
>

Hi, I suggest you to search web pages about satellite hacking, there is a
lot of information, software, ...
       kind regards,
     Adolfo.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------
|         Adolfo Cobo Garcia  -  UNIVERSIDAD DE CANTABRIA               |
|    E.T.S.I.I. y Telecomunicacion, Grupo de Ingenieria Fotonica        |
|        Avda. Los Castros s/n  E-39005  Santander  SPAIN               |
|  Tfno. +34-42-201539  Fax +34-42-201873  Email: acobo@spam@spamKILLspamteisa.unican.es |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

'[OT] ?: fluid measurement'
1997\09\29@101957 by Martin R. Green

picon face
Maybe not digital, but what about the analog MPG meters that BMW's have had
just below the speedometer for as long as can remember.  I'm pretty sure
these existed before FI replaced carburation on BMW's, maybe not.  Anyway,
these meters respond very quickly to driving conditions.  Any idea if these
used a flow gauge?


Martin R. Green
EraseMEelimarRemoveMEspam@spam@bigfoot.com

----------
From:   Andrew Warren[SMTP:RemoveMEfastfwdspamspamEraseMEIX.NETCOM.COM]
Sent:   Saturday, September 27, 1997 6:53 AM
To:     STOPspamPICLIST.....spammitvma.mit.edu
Subject:        Re: ?: fluid measurement

<SNIP>

> - not all emission-controlled cars are injected - some are
> conventional carburettors.

   True... And if you can find a carbed car with a digital
   fuel-consumption display, I'll buy a beer at the Embedded
   Systems Conference and MAIL it to you.

> For a mass-produced item like a car, is a flow-meter really
> expensive? (lets ignore rip-off spare parts prices, I'm thinking
> cost)

     <SNIP>

   I didn't mean to imply that injector-pulse measurement was the
   ONLY way (or even necessarily the best way); I was just saying
   that I don't believe that EXISTING fuel-consumption displays use
   anything more complicated than that pulse-measurement... It
   doesn't seem reasonable to me that an auto manufacturer would
   burden its cars with the cost of ANY extra hardware just to
   provide a function as minor as a fuel-consumption display.

   The fact that fuel-consumption displays seemed to appear right
   around the same time that microprocessor-controlled fuel
   injection became commonly available, AND the fact that I've
   never seen a fuel-flow meter on an automobile engine, AND the
   fact that I know of no carbureted cars that provide a digital
   fuel-consumption display, would seem to bear out my hypothesis
   that the fuel-consumption "measurement" is handled indirectly by
   a software-only process that just looks at injector
   pulse-widths.

   Just my opinion, of course... I could be wrong.

   -Andy

=== Meet other PICLIST members at the Embedded Systems Conference:
=== 6:30 pm on Wednesday, 1 October, at Bytecraft Limited's booth.
===
=== For more information on the Embedded Systems Conference,
=== see: http://www.embedsyscon.com/

=== Andrew Warren - spamBeGonefastfwdRemoveMEspamRemoveMEix.netcom.com
=== Fast Forward Engineering - Vista, California
=== http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/2499

'[OT] SmartCards'
1997\09\29@112256 by Martin R. Green

picon face
Try:

   http://www4.tripnet.se/~glenn/smartinf.htm
   http://www.racom.com/

Also, this months issue of Elektor magazine from the U.K. has a smart card
programmer project.

CIAO - Martin R. Green
@spam@elimarspamBeGonespambigfoot.com

----------
From:   Herbert Baar[SMTP:spam_OUTbaarspamspamCOMPUTERHAUS.AT]
Sent:   Monday, September 29, 1997 6:15 AM
To:     spamPICLISTspamspamspammitvma.mit.edu
Subject:        [OT] SmartCards

Hi there

We plan to integrate a Smartcard-Reader in our system. We have
experience with "normal" memory Smartcards, but have no experience with
Smartcards with integrated processor. Can anyone tell me where to get
detailde information about this kind of smartcards? =:-)

kind regards
Ing. bernd Riegler
<spamBeGonebaarKILLspamspamKILLspamcomputerhaus.at>

'[OT] ?: fluid measurement'
1997\09\29@121337 by Nic van der Walt

flavicon
face
> Maybe not digital, but what about the analog MPG meters that BMW's have had
> just below the speedometer for as long as can remember.  I'm pretty sure
> these existed before FI replaced carburation on BMW's, maybe not.  Anyway,
> these meters respond very quickly to driving conditions.  Any idea if these
> used a flow gauge?
>
These, as do most "economy guages" use a pressure sensor on the
vacuum line of the engine. The harder the engine work the higher the
vacuum. Very imperic.

Nic

1997\09\29@160053 by trogers

flavicon
face
Martin R. Green wrote:

> Maybe not digital, but what about the analog MPG meters that BMW's have had
> just below the speedometer for as long as can remember.  I'm pretty sure
> these existed before FI replaced carburation on BMW's, maybe not.  Anyway,
> these meters respond very quickly to driving conditions.  Any idea if these
> used a flow gauge?

All the BMW MPG gauges I've seen (I don't personally own one, and wouldn't) were
just variations of the old manifold vacuum gauges. Not too exciting, really.

Tom Rogers  VP-R&D  Time Tech Inc.

1997\09\30@033449 by Oyvind Kaurstad

flavicon
face
>> Maybe not digital, but what about the analog MPG meters that BMW's have had
>> just below the speedometer for as long as can remember.  I'm pretty sure
>> these existed before FI replaced carburation on BMW's, maybe not.  Anyway,
>> these meters respond very quickly to driving conditions.  Any idea if these
>> used a flow gauge?

>These, as do most "economy guages" use a pressure sensor on the
>vacuum line of the engine. The harder the engine work the higher the
>vacuum. Very imperic.

Do you mean "less pressure" when you say "higher vacuum"?
If so, you are mistaken.

If the engine works harder you get MORE pressure in the intake
manifold.

Just think of it, when you step on the loud pedal you open the air
intake valve to allow more air into the engine. More air -> Higher pressure.

On a regular suction engine this pressure will be approx 1 bar, equal to
the pressure of the outside air.

The above is not true when it comes to turbo or compressor charged engines.

-Oyvind

1997\09\30@074238 by Nic van der Walt

flavicon
face
I wrote:
> >These, as do most "economy gauges" use a pressure sensor on the
> >vacuum line of the engine. The harder the engine work the higher the
> >vacuum. Very imperic.

-Oyvind replied
>
> Do you mean "less pressure" when you say "higher vacuum"?
> If so, you are mistaken.
>
> If the engine works harder you get MORE pressure in the intake
> manifold.
>
> Just think of it, when you step on the loud pedal you open the air
> intake valve to allow more air into the engine. More air -> Higher pressure.

Faster airflow -> lower pressure ! In the manifold that is.

> On a regular suction engine this pressure will be approx 1 bar, equal to
> the pressure of the outside air.
>
> The above is not true when it comes to turbo or compressor charged engines.
y

'[OT] m-net IR remote protocol'
1997\09\30@134145 by Zack Cilliers

flavicon
face
Hi There!

Can the South African people on the list help me with the
protocol
of the m-net remote please.

Zack
              )|(
            (o o)
-----ooO--(_)--Ooo----

TakeThisOuTzcspamspamintekom.co.za
or
spamBeGonespazzmanspaminame.com

There is no justice.
There is just us.

'[OT] A new way to make PCB's'
1997\09\30@141426 by Martin R. Green

picon face
After all our discussions recently about plotting directly on a PCB blank,
the November 1997 issue of Electronics Now has details of a new method for
making PCB's that promises to be the easiest yet.

In a nutshell, this method involves printing the copper pattern directly on
a special flexible foil, which is then etched in a relatively benign
etchant solution, all before actually affixing the pattern to the PCB.  The
author recommends designing your patterns to use 0.1 inch centers so you
can use a prepunched perfboard and not have to do any drilling, but you can
also use a standard epoxy blank and drill as normal.

When your pattern is etched, it is glued to the perfboard or blank and then
used like a normally created PCB.  Although the author doesn't mention it,
using this technique with a perfboard looks like it would make creating
double sided boards a snap (of course sans the plated through holes).

If you are copying someone else's pattern (such as from a magazine), it is
unlikely it will be on exactly 0.1 inch centers, so you will have to use
a normal blank and drill it.

Before anyone asks, since this is one of the highest profile electronics
magazines on the market, and since it has just hit the newsstands, I will
NOT be scanning this article for PICLIST members.  Sorry, but it just takes
up too much of my time.


CIAO - Martin R. Green
EraseMEelimarEraseMEspambigfoot.com

1997\09\30@184543 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face
   After all our discussions recently about plotting directly on a PCB blank,
   the November 1997 issue of Electronics Now has details of a new method for
   making PCB's that promises to be the easiest yet.
       :
   In a nutshell, this method involves printing the copper pattern directly on
   a special flexible foil, which is then etched in a relatively benign
   etchant solution, all before actually affixing the pattern to the PCB.

Um.  What supports the copper pattern after it's etched, before it goes onto
the backing board?  Better be pretty tough stuff.

This neglects that the preferred hobbyist PCB material is "surplus" scraps
sold at about $0.01 per sq inch of copper (ie, $0.02c/sq inch for double
sided boards.)

BillW

1997\09\30@184941 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face
By the way, I assume you're all aware of those CNC routers that will
mechanically remove copper from a board, given a pattern.  They sell for
as little as $10k-$15k new (I think "ready to use".)  They may be available
used or refurbished at a considerable discount (I think a salescritter once
told me $3-5K.)  Not exactly pocket change, but perhaps something more in
reach of a small company or school than you expected.

BillW


'[OT] A new way to make PCB's'
1997\10\01@074400 by Nic van der Walt
flavicon
face
>
> By the way, I assume you're all aware of those CNC routers that will
> mechanically remove copper from a board, given a pattern.  They sell for
> as little as $10k-$15k new (I think "ready to use".)  They may be available
> used or refurbished at a considerable discount (I think a salescritter once
> told me $3-5K.)  Not exactly pocket change, but perhaps something more in
> reach of a small company or school than you expected.

I built one of these for about $150. Only problem is that the
thinnest gap I can route is about 1mm. A board layed out at
14mil tracks and 80mils spacing does look pecular!

Nic

1997\10\01@093512 by Martin R. Green

picon face
Apparently the foil has a thin, strong, dimensionally stable backing that
remains on the foil after etching.

Also, surplus PCB blanks are the preferred hobbyist material primarily
because we have no alternative, other than wirewrap and point to point.
The special foil used here is US$45 for 5 8x10" sheets and US$80 for 10
8x10" sheets, and this method has very little waste, one sheet can make
several smaller boards.  Convenience, ease of use, and final results count
for a lot.  This method doesn't require a darkroom, exposures, UV light
source, or any chemicals except the etchant.  Plus there is no time
required for drilling, and aligning both sides of a double sided board is a
snap.  Anybody with just a laser printer can use this method, and a copier
will work well too if you don't use prepunched perfboard (it's hard to get
perfect 1:1 copying on any copier).

In any case, this certainly looks like it is worth trying.  Incidentally,
the author now uses this method for all his prototype boards, event those
that will have a high volume production later.

CIAO - Martin R. Green
spamBeGoneelimarspam_OUTspam.....bigfoot.com

----------
From:   William Chops Westfield[SMTP:spambillwspamCISCO.COM]
Sent:   Tuesday, September 30, 1997 6:44 PM
To:     RemoveMEPICLISTKILLspamspamKILLspammitvma.mit.edu
Subject:        Re: [OT] A new way to make PCB's

   After all our discussions recently about plotting directly on a PCB
blank,
   the November 1997 issue of Electronics Now has details of a new method
for
   making PCB's that promises to be the easiest yet.
       :
   In a nutshell, this method involves printing the copper pattern
directly on
   a special flexible foil, which is then etched in a relatively benign
   etchant solution, all before actually affixing the pattern to the PCB.

Um.  What supports the copper pattern after it's etched, before it goes
onto
the backing board?  Better be pretty tough stuff.

This neglects that the preferred hobbyist PCB material is "surplus" scraps
sold at about $0.01 per sq inch of copper (ie, $0.02c/sq inch for double
sided boards.)

BillW

1997\10\01@094740 by Norm Cramer

flavicon
face
>  Anybody with just a laser printer can use this method, and a copier
>will work well too if you don't use prepunched perfboard (it's hard to get
>perfect 1:1 copying on any copier).
>

Will it also work with an inkjet printer, or does it have to be a laser
printer?

This sounds like a great way to prototype my designs.

Norm

1997\10\01@100405 by Martin R. Green

picon face
It _might_ work with an ink jet, but the article specifically targets a laser
printer or copier.

CIAO - Martin R. Green
EraseMEelimarspamBeGonespamspambigfoot.com

----------
From:   Norm Cramer[SMTP:KILLspamcramerspamDSEG.TI.COM]
Sent:   Wednesday, October 01, 1997 9:45 AM
To:     PICLISTspam_OUTspamspammitvma.mit.edu
Subject:        Re: [OT] A new way to make PCB's

>  Anybody with just a laser printer can use this method, and a copier
>will work well too if you don't use prepunched perfboard (it's hard to get
>perfect 1:1 copying on any copier).
>

Will it also work with an inkjet printer, or does it have to be a laser
printer?

This sounds like a great way to prototype my designs.

Norm

1997\10\01@101755 by Roger Books

flavicon
face
{Quote hidden}

1997\10\01@103630 by Roger Books

flavicon
face
Sorry about the last one, My button finger slipped.

What is the method of transferring the image?  It's not one of those
iron-on things is it?  Or is it thin enough to run through the printer
itself?

Roger

(feeling a little uncomfortable about running foil through my HP3)

1997\10\01@105439 by Martin R. Green

picon face
Nope, not one of those iron-on things.  This is apparently a special very
flexible foil on a thing plastic backing that is run directly thru your
laser printer, then etched, all before being affixed to the PCB or
perfboard material with adhesive.  The author does warn you to ensure that
the foil is perfectly flat, without curled edges that would scratch your
photosensitive drum.

Incidentally, the author also mentions that you don't have to glue the
pattern to anything, allowing you to make flexible circuits, like those
used behind the instrument cluster in your car.

As I stated in my first post on this subject, get all the details in the
November issue of Electronics Now.


CIAO - Martin R. Green
@spam@elimarspambigfoot.com

----------
From:   Roger Books[SMTP:booksRemoveMEspammail.state.fl.us]
Sent:   Wednesday, October 01, 1997 10:07 AM
To:     spamPICLISTspammitvma.mit.edu
Subject:        Re: [OT] A new way to make PCB's

Sorry about the last one, My button finger slipped.

What is the method of transferring the image?  It's not one of those
iron-on things is it?  Or is it thin enough to run through the printer
itself?

Roger

(feeling a little uncomfortable about running foil through my HP3)

1997\10\01@115833 by Bryson, William G (Bill)

flavicon
face
>Also, surplus PCB blanks are the preferred hobbyist material primarily
>because we have no alternative, other than wirewrap and point to point.
> The special foil used here is US$45 for 5 8x10" sheets and US$80 for
10
>8x10" sheets, and this method has very little waste, one sheet can make
>several smaller boards.  Convenience, ease of use, and final results
count
>for a lot.  This method doesn't require a darkroom, exposures, UV light
>source, or any chemicals except the etchant.  Plus there is no time
>required for drilling, and aligning both sides of a double sided board
is a
>snap.  Anybody with just a laser printer can use this method, and a
copier
>will work well too if you don't use prepunched perfboard (it's hard to
get
>perfect 1:1 copying on any copier).

You indicate that no required drilling is needed.  Just how does this
work?
I haven't been following this thread but if I can make PC boards without

any drilling with my laser at home I'm interested...

-------------------------------------------------
Work all day & night,
deliver on time & on budget,       Regards,
and justice for all...             Bill Bryson

1997\10\01@130928 by Roger Books

flavicon
face
> You indicate that no required drilling is needed.  Just how does this
> work?
> I haven't been following this thread but if I can make PC boards without
> any drilling with my laser at home I'm interested...

Lay it out so your pattern fits on perfboard like you can pick up (hugely
overpriced) at the shack.  Lots of holes already.

Roger

1997\10\01@132834 by Martin R. Green

picon face
Check the recent archives for this list, but if you want the full details, grab
the November issue of electronics Now.


CIAO - Martin R. Green
elimarspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTbigfoot.com

----------
From:   Bryson, William G (Bill)[SMTP:spam_OUTBRYSOWG@spam@spamRemoveMETEXACO.COM]
Sent:   Wednesday, October 01, 1997 11:55 AM
To:     spamPICLISTspamspammitvma.mit.edu
Subject:        Re: [OT] A new way to make PCB's

>Also, surplus PCB blanks are the preferred hobbyist material primarily
>because we have no alternative, other than wirewrap and point to point.
> The special foil used here is US$45 for 5 8x10" sheets and US$80 for
10
>8x10" sheets, and this method has very little waste, one sheet can make
>several smaller boards.  Convenience, ease of use, and final results
count
>for a lot.  This method doesn't require a darkroom, exposures, UV light
>source, or any chemicals except the etchant.  Plus there is no time
>required for drilling, and aligning both sides of a double sided board
is a
>snap.  Anybody with just a laser printer can use this method, and a
copier
>will work well too if you don't use prepunched perfboard (it's hard to
get
>perfect 1:1 copying on any copier).

You indicate that no required drilling is needed.  Just how does this
work?
I haven't been following this thread but if I can make PC boards without

any drilling with my laser at home I'm interested...

-------------------------------------------------
Work all day & night,
deliver on time & on budget,       Regards,
and justice for all...             Bill Bryson

1997\10\01@133219 by lilel

flavicon
face
> print directly on copper from laser printer....

Can someone post a phone number for the people who sell this stuff?
Can't find Novemeber Electronics Now.  What's the name of the
company?


Best Regards,

Lawrence Lile

1997\10\01@135438 by Martin R. Green

picon face
Sorry, no phone #.  The product name is Z-Flex foil, manufactured by:

Courtaulds Performance Films,
PO Box 5068
Martinsville,
VA, 24115
USA

The manufacturer only sells to companies, and only in 24" x 100' rolls.
You can buy 5 8x10" sheets (ZF-5) for US$45 or 10 8x10" sheets (ZF-10) for
US$80, presumably from the author's company:

Lancelot
PO Box 541005,
Meritt Island,
FL, 32954
USA

For either 5 or 10 sheets add US$3 for priority shipping to US or CANADA.
PA residents add applicable tax.  Check or MO only.

I guess you need to contact them first for shipping info if you live
outside NA.


CIAO - Martin R. Green
@spam@elimarspam_OUTspambigfoot.com

----------
From:   Lawrence Lile[SMTP:.....lilelspam.....toastmaster.com]
Sent:   Wednesday, October 01, 1997 8:31 AM
To:     spamPICLISTKILLspamspammitvma.mit.edu
Subject:        Re: [OT] A new way to make PCB's

> print directly on copper from laser printer....

Can someone post a phone number for the people who sell this stuff?
Can't find Novemeber Electronics Now.  What's the name of the
company?


Best Regards,

Lawrence Lile

1997\10\01@144133 by lilel

flavicon
face
> Sorry, no phone #.  The product name is Z-Flex foil, manufactured
> by:
>
> Courtaulds Performance Films,
> PO Box 5068
> Martinsville,
> VA, 24115
> USA
>
Phone # is 540-627-3000.  They DO sell small quantities.  I will
recieve more info tomorrow.



> Lancelot
> PO Box 541005,
> Meritt Island,
> FL, 32954
> USA
This company has no phone listing.

Best Regards,

Lawrence Lile

1997\10\01@152053 by David W. Duley

picon face
In a message dated 97-10-01 14:00:52 EDT, you write:

<<
Sorry, no phone #.  The product name is Z-Flex foil, manufactured by:

Courtaulds Performance Films,
PO Box 5068
Martinsville,
VA, 24115
USA

The manufacturer only sells to companies, and only in 24" x 100' rolls.
 You can buy 5 8x10" sheets (ZF-5) for US$45 or 10 8x10" sheets (ZF-10) for
US$80, presumably from the author's company:

Lancelot
PO Box 541005,
Meritt Island,
FL, 32954
USA

For either 5 or 10 sheets add US$3 for priority shipping to US or CANADA.
 PA residents add applicable tax.  Check or MO only.
 >>
HOLY COW!
This system is a bit pricy for me.  I get all the scrap PC blanks I can carry
from the local PCB house for free and I use Silicon treated mylar to print
and transfer the images. I routinely make double sided PCBs with 15 mil
traces.  It works picture perfect every time.  Screw Ironing.  I use a rubber
mat heater and heat the board not the mylar.  I rub the image on with a small
paint roller.  After a few minutes of rubbing, I remove the hot PCB and swab
the backside of the mylar with a paper towel moistened with ice water.  The
mylar falls off of the PCB.  It is very unusual that I even have to touch up
a trace.
My company uses the mylar for our product so I even get all the mylar I need
for free.
Hard to beat that sort of economics.

Dave Duley

'[OT] ?: fluid measurement'
1997\10\01@164331 by Sean Breheny

face picon face
At 01:41 PM 9/30/97 +0000, you wrote:
>I wrote:
>> >These, as do most "economy gauges" use a pressure sensor on the
>> >vacuum line of the engine. The harder the engine work the higher the
>> >vacuum. Very imperic.
>
> -Oyvind replied
> >
>> Do you mean "less pressure" when you say "higher vacuum"?
>> If so, you are mistaken.
>>
>> If the engine works harder you get MORE pressure in the intake
>> manifold.
>>
>> Just think of it, when you step on the loud pedal you open the air
>> intake valve to allow more air into the engine. More air -> Higher
pressure.
>
>Faster airflow -> lower pressure ! In the manifold that is.
>
>> On a regular suction engine this pressure will be approx 1 bar, equal to
>> the pressure of the outside air.
>>
>> The above is not true when it comes to turbo or compressor charged engines.
>y
>

I don't know the exact reason, but on regular carburated engines, intake
manifold pressure increases with throttle setting, but goes to 1 bar(29.92
inHG) when the engine is off. (Obviously, it must return to atmospheric
press when engine is not doing anything to the air in the manifold).

Sean


Sean Breheny,KA3YXM
Electrical Engineering Student

1997\10\01@170349 by Roger Books

flavicon
face
> I don't know the exact reason, but on regular carburated engines, intake
> manifold pressure increases with throttle setting, but goes to 1 bar(29.92
> inHG) when the engine is off. (Obviously, it must return to atmospheric
> press when engine is not doing anything to the air in the manifold).

How do they manage that?  It would seem to me to violate the Bournoulli (sp?)
principle.  The faster the piston sucks in air the lower pressure the intake
air must be in order to force it to move faster.  (No, that isn't a
quote of the principle, that is the intuitive affect it would have in
this case.)

Actually, if you want to answer me feel free to go to direct e-mail.

Roger

'[OT] A new way to make PCB's'
1997\10\01@185414 by Randy Howe

flavicon
face
Qutie a novel idea. Sounds like you could make PCBs shaped like a drum if
you wanted to (glue the etched film to an empty toilet paper roll ?). Might
be useful for LED displays or something.

Might be useful for multi-layer boards. I guess you would have to solder
components to the first layer, then add another layer and solder to it, etc.

Randy Howe
Axiak Electronic Design Ltd.
email: RemoveMErhoweRemoveMEspamaxionet.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Martin R. Green <KILLspamelimar.....spamKILLspamBIGFOOT.COM>
To: PICLISTspam_OUTspamspam_OUTMITVMA.MIT.EDU <KILLspamPICLISTspam@spam@MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Date: Wednesday, October 01, 1997 7:56 AM
Subject: Re: [OT] A new way to make PCB's



>Nope, not one of those iron-on things.  This is apparently a special very
>flexible foil on a thing plastic backing that is run directly thru your
>laser printer, then etched, all before being affixed to the PCB or
>perfboard material with adhesive>

'[OT] ?: fluid measurement'
1997\10\01@215136 by Lee Jones

flavicon
face
>> True... And if you can find a carbed car with a digital
>> fuel-consumption display,

> Maybe not digital, but what about the analog MPG meters that
> BMW's have had just below the speedometer for as long as can
> remember.  I'm pretty sure these existed before FI replaced
> carburation on BMW's, maybe not.

The Pontiac Grand Prix had a fuel economy gauge back in
1963 (on carburated engines).  Possibly earlier too but
the gauge I've got in my garage is from a '63 model.  It
had no connection to the fuel flow per se.  It measured
manifold vacuum.
                                               Lee Jones

'[OT] A new way to make PCB's'
1997\10\02@002753 by tjaart

flavicon
face
>
> (feeling a little uncomfortable about running foil through my HP3)

How can a conductive foil be used in a xerographic process?
(Wet a small section in the middle of a page and try to print on it)

--
Friendly Regards

Tjaart van der Walt
@spam@tjaartRemoveMEspamwasp.co.za
_____________________________________________________________
| WASP International http://www.wasp.co.za/~tjaart/index.html |
|       R&D Engineer : GSM peripheral services development    |
|   Vehicle tracking | Telemetry systems | GSM data transfer  |
|    Voice : +27-(0)11-622-8686 | Fax : +27-(0)11-622-8973    |
|              WGS-84 : 26010.52'S 28006.19'E                 |
|_____________________________________________________________|

1997\10\02@003413 by tjaart

flavicon
face
Randy Howe wrote:
>
> Qutie a novel idea. Sounds like you could make PCBs shaped like a drum if
> you wanted to (glue the etched film to an empty toilet paper roll ?). Might
If the PCB doesn't work, you can always re-use it in the toilet <VVVBG>

--
Friendly Regards

Tjaart van der Walt
tjaart@spam@spamEraseMEwasp.co.za
_____________________________________________________________
| WASP International http://www.wasp.co.za/~tjaart/index.html |
|       R&D Engineer : GSM peripheral services development    |
|   Vehicle tracking | Telemetry systems | GSM data transfer  |
|    Voice : +27-(0)11-622-8686 | Fax : +27-(0)11-622-8973    |
|              WGS-84 : 26010.52'S 28006.19'E                 |
|_____________________________________________________________|

1997\10\02@013736 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face
> Qutie a novel idea. Sounds like you could make PCBs shaped like a drum if
> you wanted to (glue the etched film to an empty toilet paper roll ?). Might

I have some somewhat conventional PCB material from one of the local surplus
places that is fexible enough to roll into a cylinder about 1/2 inch in
diameter.  I think it's some fancy dielectric aimed at RF applications,
since there's a sticker on it that says it's from the microwave materials
division of Rogers Corp.  "RT/Duroid", whatever that is.

BillW

'[OT] ?: fluid measurement'
1997\10\02@031414 by Oyvind Kaurstad

flavicon
face
>> >These, as do most "economy gauges" use a pressure sensor on the
>> >vacuum line of the engine. The harder the engine work the higher the
>> >vacuum. Very imperic.

> -Oyvind replied
> >
>> Do you mean "less pressure" when you say "higher vacuum"?
>> If so, you are mistaken.
>>
>> If the engine works harder you get MORE pressure in the intake
>> manifold.
>>
>> Just think of it, when you step on the loud pedal you open the air
>> intake valve to allow more air into the engine. More air -> Higher pressure.

>Faster airflow -> lower pressure ! In the manifold that is.

Consider this situation:

A regular carbureted engine is driving uphill at a moderate speed
(constant) and with a medium throttle setting.

In the intake manifold we have, say 0.7 bar.

Then the driver open up the intake valve by applying full throttle.
The pressure in the manifold now increase to, say 0.9 bar.

Why?

This happens because the pistons are moving with the same speed as
before the throttle was applied, but the air intake is now wide open.

If you have ever looked at a regular vacuum economy gauge, you
must have noticed that it will show "good economy" when running
at idle, but if you stop the engine it will show "bad economy"..

There is no doubt that the pressure in the intake manifold is 1 bar with the
engine stopped..?

There is also no doubt that the pressure is less than 1 bar when running at
idle?

Still disagree?

-Oyvind

1997\10\02@043735 by mikesmith_ozNOSP*M

flavicon
face
On  2 Oct 97 at 8:21, Oyvind Kaurstad wrote:

> >> >These, as do most "economy gauges" use a pressure sensor on the
> >> >vacuum line of the engine. The harder the engine work the higher the
> >> >vacuum. Very imperic.
>
> > -Oyvind replied
> > >
> >> Do you mean "less pressure" when you say "higher vacuum"?
> >> If so, you are mistaken.
> >>
> >> If the engine works harder you get MORE pressure in the intake
> >> manifold.
> >>
> >> Just think of it, when you step on the loud pedal you open the air
> >> intake valve to allow more air into the engine. More air -> Higher
pressure.
{Quote hidden}

The so called 'Economy Gauges' are a total waste of time - they flop
backwards and forwards crazily.  The tendency of car makers to omit
RPM gauges in favour of theses devices is idiotic - a car computer
might make sense of manifold pressure, but its useless info to a
person.
MikeS
<mikesmith_ozNOSP*M.relaymail.net>
(remove the you know what before replying)

'[OT] A new way to make PCB's'
1997\10\02@050154 by Tom Handley

picon face
  Martin, I've also read the same article. I normally use point to point
soldered prototypes. I don't have a Laser printer but I do have an Epson
Stylus Color ink jet and I was wondering if anyone has used ink jets with
this or other similar methods? The printer is fairly accurate as far as
dimensions. Thanks,

  - Tom

At 09:26 AM 10/1/97 -0400, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

'[OT] ?: fluid measurement'
1997\10\02@052956 by Oyvind Kaurstad

flavicon
face
>> >> >These, as do most "economy gauges" use a pressure sensor on the
>> >> >vacuum line of the engine. The harder the engine work the higher the
>> >> >vacuum. Very imperic.
>>
>> > -Oyvind replied
>> > >
>> >> Do you mean "less pressure" when you say "higher vacuum"?
>> >> If so, you are mistaken.
>> >>
>> >> If the engine works harder you get MORE pressure in the intake
>> >> manifold.
>> >>
>> >> Just think of it, when you step on the loud pedal you open the air
>> >> intake valve to allow more air into the engine. More air -> Higher
> pressure.
>>

[Snip]

{Quote hidden}

Yes, I totally agree with you.
The principle is more or less correct, but the output (visual) is not
directly proportional to fuel consumption, and it has no relation to
mpg.

But it does tell you what happens with the pressure in the intake manifold
when applying throttle, and that's what I'm discussing.

-Oyvind

'[OT] A new way to make PCB's'
1997\10\02@092213 by Martin R. Green

picon face
Yeah, I thought of that too, but I haven't figured out how you would join
the layers where you want electrical contact, since the foil has a thin
plastic backing, and I think it would be very difficult to remove small
areas around the pads.  It is certainly simple to make 2 layer boards with
this method.

CIAO - Martin R. Green
spam_OUTelimarspam_OUTspamRemoveMEbigfoot.com

----------

<SNIP>

Might be useful for multi-layer boards. I guess you would have to solder
components to the first layer, then add another layer and solder to it,
etc.

Randy Howe
Axiak Electronic Design Ltd.
email: RemoveMErhowespam.....axionet.com

1997\10\02@092953 by Martin R. Green

picon face
A lot of the questions about this would be answered if you go get the
November issue of Electronics Now.  The foil is "pre-etched" for a couple
of minutes to prepare the surface to accept the toner, then cleaned when
finished with xylene and a light brushing with fine steel wool.


Martin R. Green
spamelimar@spam@spambigfoot.com

----------
From:   Tjaart van der Walt[SMTP:tjaartTakeThisOuTspamwasp.co.za]
Sent:   Thursday, October 02, 1997 12:28 AM
To:     .....PICLISTspamTakeThisOuTmitvma.mit.edu
Subject:        Re: [OT] A new way to make PCB's

>
> (feeling a little uncomfortable about running foil through my HP3)

How can a conductive foil be used in a xerographic process?
(Wet a small section in the middle of a page and try to print on it)

--
Friendly Regards

Tjaart van der Walt
EraseMEtjaartspamKILLspamwasp.co.za
_____________________________________________________________
| WASP International http://www.wasp.co.za/~tjaart/index.html |
|       R&D Engineer : GSM peripheral services development    |
|   Vehicle tracking | Telemetry systems | GSM data transfer  |
|    Voice : +27-(0)11-622-8686 | Fax : +27-(0)11-622-8973    |
|              WGS-84 : 26010.52'S 28006.19'E                 |
|_____________________________________________________________|

1997\10\02@095351 by Alan G. Smith

flavicon
face
Unfortunately, I can't find this magazine for sale around here.
Can I get anyone to mail me a copy?  I'll send you a check for the
magazine and your postage.  Send me PRIVATE e-mail if you can /will
do this.

Thanks,

Alan G. Smith

+---------------
| Alan G. Smith
| agsEraseMEspampoboxes.com
| http://www.innovatus.com/ags

On Thu, 2 Oct 1997, Martin R. Green wrote:

{Quote hidden}

1997\10\02@104143 by Martin R. Green

picon face
OK, I give, I'll scan this article in the next couple of days.  Anyone out
there willing to post this on their web site so I don't have to email it
umpteen times?


CIAO - Martin R. Green
spam_OUTelimarTakeThisOuTspamKILLspambigfoot.com

----------
From:   Alan G. Smith[SMTP:RemoveMEinnovate@spam@spamspamINNOVATUS.COM]
Sent:   Thursday, October 02, 1997 9:37 AM
To:     RemoveMEPICLISTRemoveMEspamTakeThisOuTmitvma.mit.edu
Subject:        Re: [OT] A new way to make PCB's

Unfortunately, I can't find this magazine for sale around here.
Can I get anyone to mail me a copy?  I'll send you a check for the
magazine and your postage.  Send me PRIVATE e-mail if you can /will
do this.

Thanks,

Alan G. Smith

+---------------
| Alan G. Smith
| agsTakeThisOuTspam@spam@poboxes.com
| http://www.innovatus.com/ags

On Thu, 2 Oct 1997, Martin R. Green wrote:

{Quote hidden}

1997\10\02@105137 by )

flavicon
face
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the process we're talking about here
a hobbyist version of a commercial PCB process called dry film mask (or
something like that)?

If you laminate the film copper side up (or out) then you could still do
plated through holes just like on an ordinary copper clad board.
Actually, with this process, "home-brew" multi-layer boards could
probably be done.



Frank Richterkessing

RemoveMEFRANK.RICHTERKESSINGspamspamKILLspamAPPL.GE.COM

1997\10\02@110134 by Philip Restuccia

flavicon
face
> OK, I give, I'll scan this article in the next couple of days.  Anyone out
> there willing to post this on their web site so I don't have to email it
> umpteen times?

Ummmm, Martin; I'm pretty sure this would be a violation of Electronics Now's
copyright. I'd suggest you get their permission before doing this.

       Philip Restuccia
       STOPspamphilip.restucciaEraseMEspamperi.com

>
>
> CIAO - Martin R. Green
> elimarspamBeGonespambigfoot.com
>

1997\10\02@140444 by Martin R. Green

picon face
Actually, I think you are right, which is the main reason I resisted
posting the article in the past, but in a weak moment I offered to scan it
for the list members.  I'm afraid I'll have to rescind that offer.

C'mon folks, Electronics Now is not a difficult magazine to find on the
newsstand, maybe the foreign PICLIST members will have to wait a little
longer till it appears on the shelves, but this is the best selling US
hobbyist mag on the market, and it is the current issue, most members of
this list should be able to find it.

If not, contact the publisher (http://www.gernsback.com) or check your
local library.


CIAO - Martin R. Green
elimar@spam@spambigfoot.com

----------
From:   Philip Restuccia[SMTP:spam_OUTphilip.restucciaspamspamPERI.COM]
Sent:   Thursday, October 02, 1997 11:03 AM
To:     PICLISTspam_OUTspamRemoveMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject:        Re: [OT] A new way to make PCB's

> OK, I give, I'll scan this article in the next couple of days.  Anyone
out
> there willing to post this on their web site so I don't have to email it
> umpteen times?

Ummmm, Martin; I'm pretty sure this would be a violation of Electronics
Now's
copyright. I'd suggest you get their permission before doing this.

       Philip Restuccia
       spamphilip.restucciaspamBeGonespamperi.com

>
>
> CIAO - Martin R. Green
> spamelimarRemoveMEspambigfoot.com
>

'[OT] Programming Editors'
1997\10\02@155813 by Mark Hellman

picon face
A lot of folks here seem to use PFE. I have not tried it because I am very
happy with WinEdit. Can anyone comment on the differences between them?

TIA,

Mark

'[OT] A new way to make PCB's'
1997\10\02@173659 by lilel

flavicon
face
> print directly on copper/film laminate and place or perfboard....

I recieved a flyer from Courtaulds Performance FIlms.  It seems the
intended purpose of this stuff is for making flexible ciecuits, and
clever prototypers have adapted it for use in laser printers.

I will contact them about pricing and details tomorrow.


Best Regards,

Lawrence Lile

1997\10\03@010215 by Scott Stephens

picon face
>To: KILLspamlilelspam_OUTspamspam_OUTtoastmaster.com
>From: Scott Stephens <stephensspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTenteract.com>
>Subject: Re: [OT] A new way to make PCB's
>
>Around 5/14/97 I read some threads, sci.electronics, about laser printing
on foil, which prompted be to write the following I entitled "NEW DIY PCB
PROTO TECH. - Printing directly on metal foil?!?"
>
>DeJa news may have it and some others reply's. Here its again, FIY
>
>***********************
>
> I've been reading a some threads on these newsgroups on toner transfer for
fine pitch SMT and printing on metal foil. I tried it in my Epson Action
Laser II, and it worked good!
>
>Getting a SMOOTH piece of Al (Aluminum) foil, I folded it over a piece of
paper and fed it into the manual paper feed slot. I took care that no
wrinkles would scratch the drum! The transfer and fusing worked great!
Unlike others results (dirty foil maybe?) the toner did not rub off. Inspite
of the fact that, logicaly, it shouldn't work.
>
>The significance of this is:
>1. Print a reverse circuit image (toner around trace) on the foil.
>
>2. Copper plate the aluminum foil. Very cheap, fast & simple (if not dirty)
>
>3.With adhesive, glue the foil to a substrate. No doubt the hard part.
>I'm thinking of perfboard (I hate drilling!) Mylar (MULTILAYER BOARDS!!!
Tooo coool!) or shitty old G10.
>
>4. Etch the aluminum off, resulting in copper traces remaing behind.
>
>No more expensive Mylar sheets & half transfered ironed toner. But best
yet, by using multiple sheets, you might be able to do decent multi-layer
boards. Via's would be made by punching holes before laminating the foil to
the plastic. Copper traces extend over the hole, which would get filled with
solder paste. I can't wait to try it!
>
>But don't blame me if you mess up your toner drum, I bet Al foil will
scratch it up real good. And a neg. image will use lots of toner. But should
still be far cheaper, easier, and more powerfull than current iron on crap,
which never worked well for me.
>

1997\10\03@012535 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face
Now, if your PC boards are small enough, there's no shortage whatsoever
of assorted self-adhesive copper "tapes" up to about an inch wide, designed
for everything from RF shielding to snail repellant...  I wouldn't be very
comfortable running it through MY laser printer, though...


   >2. Copper plate the aluminum foil. Very cheap, fast & simple
   >
   >4. Etch the aluminum off, resulting in copper traces remaing behind.

I think you can "electroless plate" copper on aluminum, ie you just dip Al
in a suitable solution and it comes out copper plated, no electricity
involved.  In this case, you can glue and etch the Al first, and only plate
what's left (maybe.)

BillW

'[OT] Programming Editors'
1997\10\03@093918 by Mike Smith

flavicon
face
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Hellman <spamBeGoneMark.HellmanspamspamspamBeGoneMCI.COM>
To: @spam@PICLISTspamspamspam_OUTMITVMA.MIT.EDU <KILLspamPICLISTspamKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Date: Friday, 3 October 1997 5:30
Subject: [OT] Programming Editors


>A lot of folks here seem to use PFE. I have not tried it because I am very
>happy with WinEdit. Can anyone comment on the differences between them?


No, but Helios Software's TextPad is a good (shareware) package too.  Only
thing I miss is syntax colouring.

1997\10\03@141851 by Mark Hellman

picon face
thing I miss is syntax colouring.

[Mark Hellman]  I don't think I could live without configurable syntax colouring
or macros, I use too many different languages.

Mark

'[OT]- BMP format'
1997\10\05@195958 by TONY NIXON 54964

flavicon
picon face
This is sort of off topic, but will help in a future PIC project if
it is feasible.

Can anyone point me to some information on how bitmap files are
organised? I've generated some 'zebra' patterns and stored these in
different colour formats, but can't seem to decypher how the bytes
relate back to the picture.

Regards

Tony


Just when I thought I knew it all,
I learned that I didn't.

1997\10\05@204533 by Ross McKenzie

flavicon
face
At 09:45 AM 10/6/97 +1000, you wrote:
>This is sort of off topic, but will help in a future PIC project if
>it is feasible.
>
>Can anyone point me to some information on how bitmap files are
>organised? I've generated some 'zebra' patterns and stored these in
>different colour formats, but can't seem to decypher how the bytes
>relate back to the picture.
>
>Regards
>
>Tony
>
>
>Just when I thought I knew it all,
>I learned that I didn't.
>

Tony,

Hi from up the road,

Visit http://www.wotsit.demon.co.uk  They have definitions of many, many
file formats including .bmp.


Regards,

Ross McKenzie
Melbourne Australia

to reply by email remove the "nosp*m." text from my email address

'[OT]-BMP's'
1997\10\05@214116 by TONY NIXON 54964

flavicon
picon face
It never ceases to amaze me, the power of the Web.

What can seem a daunting problem one minute, can almost be solved
in the next..

Thanks for the pointer Ross.

Tony


Just when I thought I knew it all,
I learned that I didn't.

'[ot] Repeat Messages...'
1997\10\06@004048 by Shane Nelson

flavicon
face
Subject: [OT] A new way to make PCB's

On Tue, 30 Sep 1997, Martin R. Green wrote:

> After all our discussions recently about plotting directly on a PCB blank,
> the November 1997 issue of Electronics Now has details of a new method for
...



6 day's after I originally recieved this message, I once again
find it in my inbox, and marked as unread.  I don't think it is a
case of the message being sent twice, but only delivered twice.
The date on this message, and I assume the first copy I recieved,
was Sept 30.  I think it's possible that high email traffic from
the piclist could be causing errors, and leaving sent mail in the
queue to be sent again.

Maybe we've outgrown our listserv.  Could someone check into
this?

.scn

'[OT]- BMP format'
1997\10\06@051524 by Luc Martin

flavicon
face
>Can anyone point me to some information on how bitmap files are
>organised? I've generated some 'zebra' patterns and stored these in
>different colour formats, but can't seem to decypher how the bytes
>relate back to the picture.

You'll find all info about image file formats and utility programs here :
ekolserv.vo.slu.se/Docs/www/graphics.html
Nice link !

          |\_____/|
   ___    |[o] [o]|        ___     ___                 ___
  (o,o)   |   V   |       (o o)   (o o)               (o,o)
 <  .  >   |       |     (  V  ) (  V  )             <  .  >
----"-"----ooo---ooo--------m-m- /--m-m-----------------"-"-------

                         Luc Martin
                 KILLspamlucspamspamspamgreco2.polytechnique.fr
       www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Bay/2752

1997\10\07@083720 by Mike Smith

flavicon
face
-----Original Message-----
From: Ross McKenzie <R.McKenzie@NOSP*M.SENCON.COM>
To: PICLISTKILLspamspam.....MITVMA.MIT.EDU <PICLISTspamBeGonespamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Date: Monday, 6 October 1997 10:16
Subject: Re: [OT]- BMP format


{Quote hidden}

If you're programming on the Windoze platform, (reasonable assumption - its
a Windoze format)  - you can find lots of data by looking in the SDK help
files, or by trawling thru the windows.h files looking for structs - stuff
like BITMAPINFOHEADER.  This saves you defining your own structs, and keeps
it compatible.  The latest SDK isn't bad for throwing BMP's around (compared
to previous versions)

MikeS
<mikesmith_ozspamspam_OUTrelaymail.net>

'[OT] Old TV remotes that used ultrasonic?'
1997\10\07@120607 by Eric Thompson

flavicon
face
I was looking for some information on how the old TV remotes worked that
used ultrasonics for the remote controls.

I have an old TV that I lost the remote for (during a move) and would
like to create an Infrared to Ultrasonic converter (using a PIC of
course!) so that I can use my All for One IR remote with this TV.  Does
any one know how these remotes worked?  The remote only had 4 functions:
Chan. Up and down, and Volume up and down, so I'm assuming it uses a few
different frequencies to trigger these four functions.

As far as using a PIC for this, I have done the IR receiving part before
so that's not a problem, it's the ultrasonic part that I don't know
about.

So my questions are:
1) What sort of method was used to communicate from the remote to TV
with ultrasonics?

2) How would I create an ultrasonic sound using a PIC?


Thanks,
       Eric Thompson

1997\10\07@121854 by John Shreffler

flavicon
face
part 0 1089 bytes
-----Original Message-----
From:   Eric Thompson [SMTP:.....EricThompsonRemoveMEspamKILLspamVERSALOGIC.COM]
Sent:   Tuesday, October 07, 1997 11:57 AM
To:     TakeThisOuTPICLISTKILLspamspam.....MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject:        [OT] Old TV remotes that used ultrasonic?

I was looking for some information on how the old TV remotes worked that
used ultrasonics for the remote controls.

I have an old TV that I lost the remote for (during a move) and would
like to create an Infrared to Ultrasonic converter (using a PIC of
course!) so that I can use my All for One IR remote with this TV.  Does
any one know how these remotes worked?  The remote only had 4 functions:
Chan. Up and down, and Volume up and down, so I'm assuming it uses a few
different frequencies to trigger these four functions.

As far as using a PIC for this, I have done the IR receiving part before
so that's not a problem, it's the ultrasonic part that I don't know
about.

So my questions are:
1) What sort of method was used to communicate from the remote to TV
with ultrasonics?

2) How would I create an ultrasonic sound using a PIC?


Thanks,
       Eric Thompson

1997\10\07@124404 by Steve Smith

picon face
>I was looking for some information on how the old TV remotes worked that
>used ultrasonics for the remote controls.

Try rattling a bunch of keys this often opperates these aincent tv's .I bin'd
mine over 15 years ago.

Cheers Steve.....

1997\10\07@130248 by Miller, Steve

flavicon
face
Most of these remotes operated by a little hammer striking a metal rod whose
length is tuned to the ultrasonic frequency required.  Try this experiment.  Get
a small loudspeaker, attach it to an audio range sinewave generator.  Then get
right up close to the set and run the audio generator up into the ultrasonic
range.  When you get to the correct frequency, the set will respond.
Loudspeakers are very inefficient at these frequencies, so you will have to be
quite close.  By tweaking the generator knobs, you should be able to determine
the four frequencies of interest.  Once the frequencies are know, you can write
the code to generate them.

Note:  As kids we could get these sets to change channels by jingling keys or
blowing into the whistles that came with Captain Krunch!!

'[OT] RS 232 Help?'
1997\10\07@184218 by Mike Keitz

picon face
On Tue, 7 Oct 1997 12:01:24 -0500 "Nathan Jhonson......KC7JHO"
<kc7jhospam_OUTspamspamBeGoneFLINTHILLS.COM> writes:
>Thanks I am trying to do some expermints in AFSK transmission and
>reciving
>data with 4 of the 567 ic (@$0.49 each it should be fun to try)

"Fun."  That's one of the nicer words for the 567.  I haven't had much
success using it to receive FSK unless you can get the PLL to stay locked
to the data (both mark and space) and detect changes in the control
voltage.

is the
>data
>coming out of the serial port, #2 line, in bianary coded decimal? or
>am i
>way off track. I am studing digital electronics and trying to learn as
>I go.

It comes out in LSB first binary format.  For example, the letter "A" is
ASCII code #65.  65 in binary is 01000001.  If you set the port to the
popular setting of 1200-8-N-1, you get one start bit (always), 8 data
bits, no parity bit, and at least 1 stop bit.  The baud rate of 1200
means that each bit is 1/1200 seconds in duration.

To further confuse things, the idle state of the line (negative voltage,
or "mark") is a 1, and the active state (positive voltage, or "space") is
a 0.  So the line will be sitting there negative until you press "A" on
the keyboard.  Then the PC will set the line positive for 1/1200 second,
and look at the LSB of data, which is 1.  So the line goes negative for
1/1200 second, then assumes the value of the next bit, which is 0, and so
on until all 8 bits have been sent.  The 1 stop bit means the line will
idle for at least one bit time before the next start bit, if any, is
sent.  On an oscilloscope, it looks like:

_______-_-----_-_X

At point X, the line may stay negative, or go positive for another start
bit if the PC has anything else to send.  Each character in the diagram
above is 1/1200 seconds.  Note that there is no pulse or anything
inbetween bits, if two bits have the same value the data line just stays
at that value.  Inside each character, everything is exactly timed.
However, exactly when each character starts is not exactly timed to
anything.  That's why it's called "asynchronous".  Hopefully this answers
a few questions.

'[OT] Old TV remotes that used ultrasonic?'
1997\10\07@184228 by Mike Keitz

picon face
On Tue, 7 Oct 1997 12:10:12 -0400 John Shreffler <johns.....spam@spam@AVENUETECH.COM>
writes:
>------ =_NextPart_000_01BCD319.F7BB1F50
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
>The old Magnavox (circa early 60s) remote created a supersonic
>whistling by pressing one of several bladders, like a dog whistle.
>It isn't a medium that could be converted to a digital encoding,
>I would guess.

The early Zenith remote sender had resonant metal rods inside.  When the
user pressed one of the buttons, a hammer would strike the corresponding
rod and ultrasonic sound came out the front.  The rods were differnt
length, thus each one produced a different frequency.  The frequencies
were not that far apart, due to the limited response of the receiver
transducer.  At the TV end, the signal from an ultrasonic microphone was
amplified and applied to a bank of filters.  Each filter had an envelope
detector, when the signal at that frequency was strong enough an action
would be taken.

The different frequency system is easily falsed by jingling keys,
clanking glasses, etc.  It was still an improvement over the
radio-controlled ones which would respond to your neighbor's remote as
well.  I think there were a few that used a digital code over ultrasonic,
but this was very short-lived, as IR soon replaced it.

If it only had 4 buttons its probably using different frequencies.  You
can generate the frequencies with a PIC but the transducer would like to
have tens of volts of drive, so a transformer maybe driven by a
transistor amplifier would be needed.  On the other hand, if you're
placing the converter close to the TV then only a very weak ultrasonic
signal would be necessary.  You might consider testing with a 555 timer
or signal generator circuit to see if the TV will respond to a simple CW
signal, and what frequencies are required.  The 40 KHz range was usually
standard for this.

>{Original Message removed}

1997\10\07@185258 by Harold Hallikainen

picon face
On Tue, 7 Oct 1997 12:42:17 -0400 Steve Smith <@spam@XYGAXspamspamAOL.COM> writes:
>>I was looking for some information on how the old TV remotes worked
>that
>>used ultrasonics for the remote controls.
>
>Try rattling a bunch of keys this often opperates these aincent tv's
>.I bin'd
>mine over 15 years ago.


       And a neighbor retunred a new ultrasonic pest repelling system
cuz it kept changing channels on his TV.

Harold

1997\10\07@195057 by dporter

flavicon
face
The Zenith was one of the first.  The remote had two aluminum bars that
were struck by a spring loaded button.  The button had two sides, much like
the +/- channel buttons on today's remotes.  You really had to press hard
for the hammer to strike the things.  While humans couldn't hear the tone,
you sure could tell that the damn thing was pushed.

A microphone was on the front of the TV to pick up the ultrasonics.  I
don't know the frequencies involved

----------
{Quote hidden}

'[OT] i was a teenage geek! [was: Re: stupid newbie'
1997\10\08@095010 by Pierce Nichols

flavicon
face
On Wed, 8 Oct 1997, John Payson wrote:

> > Ok, I am looking into the world of electronics and I really like doing
> > this sort of stuff.  Let me warn you...I'm only 16 and you're probably
> > thinking I should have some socializing to do or something, but...well you
> > get the point.
>
> Yeah, I get the point.  I should have had some socializing to do when _I_
> was 16, but the Commodore 64 seemed like so much more fun...  My advice:
> do the socializing now, otherwise you'll get too hooked on micros/comp-
> uters and never figure out girls/women.  [half-kidding]

       Yeah, but IMNSHO, it's better to do the larval hacker thing when
you're 16 and your brain still can form all those nifty pathways that let
you think like a computer. That sex stuff? It's hard-coded in, man... you
don't need to worry about it :). And besides, when you are an adult
hacker, pulling down 6 figures, you will find women to be a breeze :).
<1/2 j/k>

>
> >                 I have purchased a basic stamp and constructed the
> > programming mechanism for it and have built several of the application
> > note projects as well as some of my own.  This included the serial A/D
> > which I was very proud of because I interfaced it to my calculator (HP
> > 48G) (sorry about that, I just had to tell someone about that who might
> > somewhat appreciate it).
>

       Very cool. Did you have to write yr own driver for the HP? If so,
could you post it?

       Pierce Nichols

'[OT] Re: another q from the stupid newbie'
1997\10\08@225909 by Rob Zitka

flavicon
face
At 07:31 PM 10/8/97 -0400, you wrote:
>
>Apparently I have some sort of learning disability, because trying to
>learn C gives me fits! For some reason, the language syntax just doesn't
>make sense to me, but I'm obviously the odd one on this. And it's the
>only programming language that does. (Admittedly, I don't have the time
>to tinker that I used to.) Over the past 15 years. I've programmed
>extensively in about a half dozen programming languages with at least a
>half dozen dialects of each not to mention numerous machine languages.
>Even if you do work in a high level language on a PIC, you'll still need
>to know some machine language for debugging.

I don't think you are the only one to feel that way.  I have programmed in
FORTRAN and Pascal and even in Assembly.  By far the biggest headche has
been C.  Or more specifically C++ which I am taking a class on right now.
This language has too many bells and whistles I think.  Now I understand
why the need for CASE tools.

(CASE fyi is an even higher level language that in essence is used to
define what you want and IT implements the code.  It probably is larger
code but is easier to update and more reliable.)



{Quote hidden}

Or Visual Basic for Pics :)

>
>As for PIC assembler, it took me about three weeks to become reasonably
>comfortable with it. PIC architecture is different from anything I'd
>worked with before. Start small and build from there. Microchip's MPLAB
>is priced right. You have at least two advantages over many of us -
>you're a lot younger and learn quicker and you don't have a deadline for
>your project to worry about.
>

Amen.

>-Frank
>
>
>Frank Richterkessing
>
>RemoveMEFRANK.RICHTERKESSINGTakeThisOuTspamspamAPPL.GE.COM
>
>

'[OT, somewhat] Windows CE...'
1997\10\09@015827 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face
I was surprised to see such a push for Windows CE at the ESC.  Is WINCE
really an embedded operating system?  I thought it was a small personal
computer operating system, which is an entirely different thing, at least
to me...

BillW

1997\10\09@023245 by Andrew Warren

face
flavicon
face
William Chops Westfield <.....PICLIST@spam@spamspamBeGoneMITVMA.MIT.EDU> wrote:

> I was surprised to see such a push for Windows CE at the ESC.  Is
> WINCE really an embedded operating system?  I thought it was a small
> personal computer operating system, which is an entirely different
> thing, at least to me...

Bill:

As far as I can tell, Windows CE is just a way for Microsoft to scare
people away from Embedded Java until Gates, Ballmer, and Myhrvold can
figure out what the embedded-systems world is all about and give us
what we REALLY want.

Whether you call Win-CE (or Embedded Java) an "embedded operating
system", "real-time operating system", or "small personal computer
operating system" is unimportant... The important thing is that Sun
and Microsoft will be battling each other in a market that's been
stagnating for a while, so good things are bound to come from the
competition.

Not that it matters to ME, of course... I write for half-K PICs
with 25 bytes of RAM.

-Andy

=== Andrew Warren - STOPspamfastfwdTakeThisOuTspamix.netcom.com
=== Fast Forward Engineering - Vista, California
=== http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/2499

'[ot] BMP data'
1997\10\09@032237 by TONY NIXON 54964

flavicon
picon face
Thanks to all who answered the query on BMP data.

Is there any software around that allows you to read these file types
as a Hex dump? I though PFE might have done this, but it doesn't
appear to.

Tony


Just when I thought I knew it all,
I learned that I didn't.

'[OT] Re: another q from the stupid newbie'
1997\10\09@082927 by Sean Breheny

face picon face
At 12:04 AM 10/10/97 +1300, you wrote:
<snip>
>For example. All the books make out that beginners can't understand
>pointers but if you
>think of
>char  *TEXT
>as
>TEXT:   DB      'My string', 0
>
>then TEXT has some meaning. You know that TEXT is the address of the 'M'
>and that if you increment it, it will be the address of (point to) the 'y'.
>
>None of this applies to C for Windows programming, where Bill has decided
>to change the
>effect of the '=' sign and a few other subtle gotchas.
>
>
>Steve.
>

I was wondering exactly what you mean when you say "none of this applies to
WIndows C programming" I have written a couple of simple windows programs
and aside from the fact that windows code does not execute sequentially
(i.e. case statements continuously), I found no basic syntatacal difference
from DOS C programming.

Sean


Sean Breheny,KA3YXM
Electrical Engineering Student

'[OT] another q from the stupid newbie'
1997\10\09@094430 by Ian Cameron

picon face
> Perhaps you are approaching it with the wrong mindset.
> I like C because I can still think with the same braincells I use with
> assembler.
> Unlike Pascal and Modula-2, where I approach a problem differently.
> Stop thinking of C as a high level language and treat it as assembler with
> curly braces.
> If you understand indirect addressing, jump tables and all those other
> assembler things, you can mentally translate the C statements into what is
> actually happening.

I guess that could be some of the problem, I must admit I do tend to
think of C as a high level language, and not in terms of assembler.

> For example. All the books make out that beginners can't understand
> pointers but if you
> think of
> char  *TEXT
> as
> TEXT:   DB      'My string', 0
>
> then TEXT has some meaning. You know that TEXT is the address of the 'M'
> and that if you increment it, it will be the address of (point to) the 'y'.

This is an interesting thing in my case.  I *think* I understand the
idea of pointers better than the implementation in C.

I tend to liken a pointer to a form of indexed addressing, although I
believe pointers vary in word size according to their type, and not
forgetting other odd things in C, like being able to cast things.  I
guess there's also the difference that with pointers, byte boundary
differences are taken care of as well (as I understand it).

What can get confusing is the syntax of pointers in C, like pointers
to pointers and pointers into structures.  It can also get confusing
where you have complicated assignments with no parenthesis, and then
end up having to work through it all based of the precedence of the
operators, although perhaps you could also call that bad coding
(obvious is better right ?).

I guess I have to admit that I do know how to use a reasonable amount
of C's syntax, but just don't have a lot of familiarity with the
common functions and using them.  Trying to understand other peoples
code is where I often have difficulty, but perhaps I'm trying to run
before I can walk ?

Anyway, that's enough rambling for the moment :-)

Thanks for the reply.

Cheers, Ian.

'[OT, somewhat] Windows CE...'
1997\10\09@095023 by Ian Cameron

picon face
Andrew Warren wrote:

> Not that it matters to ME, of course... I write for half-K PICs
> with 25 bytes of RAM.

Yep, no chance of Microsoft encroaching on your pitch, there's
definitely not enough RAM/ROM in those :-]

Sorry, I just couldn't resist it...

Cheers, Ian.

'[ot] BMP data'
1997\10\09@112655 by Matt Bonner

flavicon
face
TONY NIXON 54964 wrote:
>
> Thanks to all who answered the query on BMP data.
>
> Is there any software around that allows you to read these file types
> as a Hex dump? I though PFE might have done this, but it doesn't
> appear to.
>
I just loaded a BMP file into UltraEdit-32 and was able to hex edit.
Full details:
       UltraEdit-32 Professional Text/HEX Editor
       http://www.idmcomp.com/
There is a shareware version that (I think) is not crippled in any way.
I was so impressed with it that I registered it (about US $45) before
the suggested 45 days was up.
--Matt

'[OT] Old TV remotes that used ultrasonic?'
1997\10\09@144955 by Larry G. Nelson Sr.

flavicon
face
It may not me too bad. I remember changing the channels on one of these by
dropping change or keys on the rug.


At 12:10 PM 10/7/97 -0400, you wrote:
>The old Magnavox (circa early 60s) remote created a supersonic
>whistling by pressing one of several bladders, like a dog whistle.
>It isn't a medium that could be converted to a digital encoding,
>I would guess.
>
>{Original Message removed}

'[OT] Re: another q from the stupid newbie'
1997\10\09@153716 by Steve Baldwin

flavicon
face
> I was wondering exactly what you mean when you say "none of this applies
to
> WIndows C programming" I have written a couple of simple windows programs
> and aside from the fact that windows code does not execute sequentially
> (i.e. case statements continuously), I found no basic syntatacal
difference
> from DOS C programming.

The comment was a bit 'tongue in cheek'.
One of my memories from my first Windows app years ago. I can't remember
which API function it was off hand, but   it was something to do with
getting hold of handles.
The function was called in the form of  a=func(b,c).
My simple brain says that after a statement like that, the value of a is
the result of something derived from b and c.
Not so in this case.
a is now what b used to be, and b takes on the new derived value.

Steve.

======================================================
 Very funny Scotty.  Now beam down my clothes.
======================================================
Steve Baldwin                Electronic Product Design
TLA Microsystems Ltd         Microcontroller Specialists
PO Box 15-680                email: TakeThisOuTsteveb@spam@spamkcbbs.gen.nz
New Lynn, Auckland           ph  +64 9 820-2221
New Zealand                  fax +64 9 820-1929
======================================================

'[OT] water soluble flux (was Oscillator, PIC16C54)'
1997\10\09@153941 by Dwayne Reid

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> <snip>
>>At first, because the board is not accessible to customer, I had
>>been leaving the flux on to save time and environment.
>> For normal resin flux, this didn't seem to matter, but I recently
>>switched to organic water soluble flux, and I thought
>>I would pass along my tentative observation that this stuff
>>has got to be thoroughly washed off.

I have to agree with you regarding water soluble organic flux.  That stuff
HAS to be removed completely or you will end up with corroded traces and
connections as well as humidity related operational problems.  We use Kester
#331 solder for hand soldering and touchup, as well as Kester AZ2331 flux
for wave soldering.

We generally wash the boards by hand with a hand shower spraying warm water
until any sign of soap bubbles disappear.  The boards are then blown off
with compressed air, using a venturi type blow nozzle (the venturi doubles
the air volume while still allowing enough pressure so that any traces of
water are completely removed from under components).  Note that the goal
here is to try to blow all the water to the edge of the board so that it
flies off as opposed to simply forcing it to evaporate.  We have hard water
in our location and do not want the minerals in the water to simply be
deposited on the board.

No humidity related problems after all this!

Dwayne Reid   <EraseMEdwaynerEraseMEspamplanet.eon.net>
Trinity Electronics Systems Ltd    Edmonton, Alberta, CANADA
(403) 489-3199 voice     (403) 487-6397 fax

'[OT] another q from the stupid newbie'
1997\10\09@170148 by Andrew Warren

face
flavicon
face
Ian Cameron <PICLISTTakeThisOuTspamKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU> wrote:

> I tend to liken a pointer to a form of indexed addressing, although
> I believe pointers vary in word size according to their type

   Ian:

   Yeah; if you increment a pointer, it doesn't necessarily
   increment by 1... Instead, it increments by the size of the type
   of object to which it points.

> What can get confusing is the syntax of pointers in C, like pointers
> to pointers and pointers into structures.  It can also get confusing
> where you have complicated assignments with no parenthesis, and then
> end up having to work through it all based of the precedence of the
> operators, although perhaps you could also call that bad coding
> (obvious is better right ?).

   Right.

> I guess I have to admit that I do know how to use a reasonable
> amount of C's syntax, but just don't have a lot of familiarity with
> the common functions and using them.  Trying to understand other
> peoples code is where I often have difficulty, but perhaps I'm
> trying to run before I can walk ?

   Perhaps.  I think you'll find that, as you see more and more C
   code, you'll become increasingly familiar with the common
   idioms.

   For instance, the following line is likely to be inscrutable to
   novice C programmers, but they soon start to recognize it as a
   string copy whenever they see it:

       while (*dest++ = *source++);

   Of course, there are plenty of bad C programmers out there, so
   your difficulty understanding their code may not be your fault
   at all.

    -Andy

=== Andrew Warren - fastfwdspamBeGonespamspamix.netcom.com
=== Fast Forward Engineering - Vista, California
=== http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/2499

'[OT] Old TV remotes that used ultrasonic?'
1997\10\09@171723 by athan Jhonson......KC7JHO

flavicon
face
>>2) How would I create an ultrasonic sound using a PIC?


Just use a 567 to produce the sound and a pic to interface the all in 1
remote? ot to sure but it might work.
KC7JHO
ICQ# 3044899
Amateur Radio, It's not just for Talking any more!

'[OT] another q from the stupid newbie'
1997\10\09@172342 by Martin R. Green

picon face
On Thu, 9 Oct 1997 13:58:07 -0800, Andrew Warren
<RemoveMEfastfwd.....spamIX.NETCOM.COM> wrote:

>Ian Cameron <PICLIST.....spam.....MITVMA.MIT.EDU> wrote:
>
<SNIP>
>
>    For instance, the following line is likely to be inscrutable to
>    novice C programmers, but they soon start to recognize it as a
>    string copy whenever they see it:
>
>        while (*dest++ = *source++);
>
<SNIP>
>

Just wanted to comment, this is about as hairy as it usually gets,
because you have two of the least understood (by novices) C concepts
here, pointers and postfix operators.  For you non-C programmers out
there, a rough English translation is:

Copy the thing pointed to by the source pointer to the location
pointed to by the dest pointer, and increment the source and dest
pointers AFTER the thing has been copied, ready for the next thing.

Pointers are not that tough really, once you get used to them, unless
you have to mentally handle lots ot dereferencing in your head
(dereferencing is figuring out exactly what a series of pointers and
addresses is actually pointing to).  Something like this can be a
headache, even for an expert C developer:

x = *(thing *)( &myarry[ 5 ] )


CIAO - Martin R. Green
spam_OUTelimarEraseMEspam.....bigfoot.com

'[ot] BMP data'
1997\10\09@174713 by J Scholz

picon face
On Thu, 9 Oct 1997 15:54:51 +1000 TONY NIXON 54964
<EraseMETony.nixonKILLspamspamspamENG.MONASH.EDU.AU> writes:
>Thanks to all who answered the query on BMP data.
>
>Is there any software around that allows you to read these file types
>as a Hex dump? I though PFE might have done this, but it doesn't
>appear to.
>
>Tony
>
>
>Just when I thought I knew it all,
>I learned that I didn't.
>
Look for a shareware product on the web called "Hexworks".
It has hex viewing of files and sector by sector of disks.

Jeff

'[OT] another q from the stupid newbie'
1997\10\09@185103 by Andrew Warren

face
flavicon
face
Martin R. Green <RemoveMEPICLISTSTOPspamspamEraseMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU> wrote:

> >    For instance, the following line is likely to be inscrutable to
> >    novice C programmers, but they soon start to recognize it as a
> >    string copy whenever they see it:
> >
> >        while (*dest++ = *source++);
>
> Just wanted to comment, this is about as hairy as it usually gets,
> because you have two of the least understood (by novices) C concepts
> here, pointers and postfix operators.  For you non-C programmers out
> there, a rough English translation is:
>
> Copy the thing pointed to by the source pointer to the location
> pointed to by the dest pointer, and increment the source and dest
> pointers AFTER the thing has been copied, ready for the next thing.

   Good explanation, Martin, but you left out one important thing:

   After every copy from source to destination, the "while" examines
   the value that was copied.  If the value isn't equal to 0,   the
   next thing is copied; if it IS equal to 0 (as it will be after
   the last value in the zero-terminated string is copied), the loop
   terminates and execution continues to the next instruction.

   -Andy

=== Andrew Warren - spam_OUTfastfwdspamspamRemoveMEix.netcom.com
=== Fast Forward Engineering - Vista, California
=== http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/2499

'[OT] Re: another q from the stupid newbie'
1997\10\09@191338 by Rob Zitka

flavicon
face
>Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 19:10:42 -0400
>To: spamBeGonelilelEraseMEspamtoastmaster.com
>From: Rob Zitka <TakeThisOuTrobzs.....spamTakeThisOuThicom.net>
>Subject: [OT] Re: another q from the stupid newbie
>
>At 10:01 AM 10/9/97 +0000, you wrote:
>>> Should I use a c compiler for the
>>> pic, picbasic, or what?  I know assembly is VERY hard to learn
>>> (according to my physics teacher) and I really don't know any other
>>> language besides Pbasic and my calculator's language (which I'm told
>>> is like c).
>>
>>
>>So far I tally NO votes for C,  5 votes for assembler.
>>Best Regards,
>
Well, to be a tad more correct, it's more like 20 Assembly, 1 C, with
myself being the only one that has advocated C and assembly.

In retrospect however I have changed my mind regarding the whole issue.
Stay with PBasic!  Both Assembly and C are cumbersome in their own way!

Rob, who awaits to be pummeled by the fellow piclisters.


>>
>>Lawrence Lile
>>
>>

'[OT] another q from the stupid newbie'
1997\10\09@193916 by Clyde Smith-Stubbs

flavicon
face
On Thu, Oct 09, 1997 at 03:48:51PM -0800, Andrew Warren wrote:
> Martin R. Green <PICLISTspamBeGonespamMITVMA.MIT.EDU> wrote:
> > >
> > >        while (*dest++ = *source++);
> >
> > Copy the thing pointed to by the source pointer to the location
> > pointed to by the dest pointer, and increment the source and dest
> > pointers AFTER the thing has been copied, ready for the next thing.
>
>     After every copy from source to destination, the "while" examines
>     the value that was copied.  If the value isn't equal to 0,   the

Just to expand further, this is really equivalent to

       while((*dest++ = *source++) != 0)
               continue;

And it's actually not a bad idea to write it like that. It should generate
exactly the same code as the original (if it doesn't, get a new compiler)
and it makes it clear what you're doing. In Java, using the explicit !=
test is mandatory - Java does not allow arbitrary expressions to be used as
boolean values, to avoid errors like:

       if(fred = 1)

which is legal C, but almost certainly was meant to be

       if(fred == 1)

Then there's the hoary old trap that I still fall into occasionally:

       if(fred & 0x60 == 0x20)

which should have been

       if((fred & 0x60) == 0x20)

becuz & has a lower precedence than ==.

--
Clyde Smith-Stubbs               |            HI-TECH Software
Email: clyde@spam@spamhtsoft.com          |          Phone            Fax
WWW:   http://www.htsoft.com/    | USA: (408) 490 2885  (408) 490 2885
PGP:   finger spamclydeSTOPspamspamRemoveMEhtsoft.com   | AUS: +61 7 3354 2411 +61 7 3354 2422
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
ANSI C for the PIC! Now shipping! See http://www.htsoft.com for more info.

1997\10\09@215246 by Andrew Warren

face
flavicon
face
Clyde Smith-Stubbs <KILLspamPICLISTspamspam_OUTMITVMA.MIT.EDU> wrote:

>     if(fred = 1)
>
> .... is legal C, but almost certainly was meant to be
>
>     if(fred == 1)

   Clyde:

   I'm sure you already know this, but others might not:  If your
   compiler doesn't have an option to generate warnings when it
   sees simple assignments within "if" expressions (or an option to
   disable such assignments), you can prevent the bug by reordering
   the expression thusly:

       if (1 == fred)

   If you write your expressions this way, they'll still work fine,
   but if you make a mistake and accidentally write:

       if (1 = fred)

   the compiler will generate an error, since you can't assign
   anything to a constant.

   This doesn't work for "if" expressions that contain two
   variables rather than a variable and a constant, but it's a
   start.

   Reordering the operands is also useful in "for" and "while"
   expressions, and around "&&" and "||" operations.

> Then there's the hoary old trap that I still fall into occasionally:
>
>     if(fred & 0x60 == 0x20)
>
> which should have been
>
>     if((fred & 0x60) == 0x20)
>
> becuz & has a lower precedence than ==.

   Kim Otten (nee Cooper) and I have THIS favorite precedence bug:

       *ip++

   which, of course, should be:

       (*ip)++

   since unary operators associate right-to-left.

   -Andy

=== Andrew Warren - @spam@fastfwdEraseMEspamTakeThisOuTix.netcom.com
=== Fast Forward Engineering - Vista, California
=== http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/2499

1997\10\09@224112 by Bob Lunn

flavicon
face
Bob Lunn
10/10/97 12:45 PM


>     if(fred = 1)
>
> .... is legal C, but almost certainly was meant to be
>
>     if(fred == 1)
    For another perspective on the joys of 'C' see:

         http://reality.sgi.com/csp/ioccc/

___Bob

1997\10\09@225142 by Clyde Smith-Stubbs

flavicon
face
Andy,

>     I'm sure you already know this, but others might not:  If your
>     compiler doesn't have an option to generate warnings when it
>     sees simple assignments within "if" expressions (or an option to

It does that by default. I didn't want to mention that lest I be seen
as opportunistic, self-serving and crass. But it's probably too late anyway...

>     disable such assignments), you can prevent the bug by reordering
>     the expression thusly:
>
>         if (1 == fred)

Indeed, I have come across this. I personally have never adopted this style,
not because I can find any particular fault with it, but it just looks
unnatural to me. I'm just used to having the variable on the left.

Clyde

--
Clyde Smith-Stubbs               |            HI-TECH Software
Email: RemoveMEclydeTakeThisOuTspamhtsoft.com          |          Phone            Fax
WWW:   http://www.htsoft.com/    | USA: (408) 490 2885  (408) 490 2885
PGP:   finger RemoveMEclydespamspamhtsoft.com   | AUS: +61 7 3354 2411 +61 7 3354 2422
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
ANSI C for the PIC! Now shipping! See http://www.htsoft.com for more info.

'[OT] Condensors Re[2]: To Few Port Pins ????'
1997\10\10@042658 by Scott Walsh

flavicon
face
    No need to apologise. In fact you are in a sense right as a VERY long
    time ago capacitors used to be know as CONDENSORS.

    When I used to work for Cable and Wireless, they have a training
    college and a museum. In the museum the have some real old telepgraph
    equipment used in the early 1900's for communicating across jungles.
    FYI it was a kind of NRZ morse code thing! But anyway this is where I
    first saw a capacitor called a condensor.

    Also, is anybody familiar with the term 'condensor microphone' that
    used to be on old tape recorders?

    regards,
    SW.


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: To Few Port Pins ????
Author:  pic microcontroller discussion list <KILLspamPICLISTspamspamspam_OUTMITVMA.MIT.EDU> at
INTERNET
Date:    10/10/97 08:24


On Fri, 10 Oct 1997, TONY NIXON 54964 wrote:

> <snip>
> > HC373, 4511, 5 transistors, 6 resistors, 5 diodes and some condensators.
>
>
> In all my years in electronics I've never heard a cap called that....
>
> It must be a new device to control dry joints.
PTM: Sorry, English isn't my native language and sometimes you can see it
:)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
PTM, spampasi.mustalahti.....spamTakeThisOuTutu.fi, ptmusta@spam@spamspam_OUTutu.fi, http://www.utu.fi/~ptmusta
Lab.ins. (mikrotuki) ATK-keskus/Mat.Luon.Tdk                    OH1HEK
Lab.engineer (PC support) Computer Center                       OI7234 Mail:
Turun Yliopisto / Fysla, Vesilinnantie 5, 20014
Pt 02-3336669, FAX 02-3335632 (Pk 02-2387010, NMT 049-555577)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

1997\10\10@044747 by Clyde Smith-Stubbs

flavicon
face
On Fri, Oct 10, 1997 at 08:48:33AM -0700, Scott Walsh wrote:

>      Also, is anybody familiar with the term 'condensor microphone' that
>      used to be on old tape recorders?

Yes, it was a precursor to the current electret microphone. It consisted of
a pair of plates arranged as an air-spaced capacitor (aka condensor)
biased by a high voltage. One plate vibrated with the sound waves, resulting
in a AC signal superimposed on the bias voltage.

The output level was very low, but the quality was very high.

An electret microphone (as universally used in modern cassette recorders)
works on the same principle, except that the bias is provided by a
permanently charged "electret" analogous to a permanent magnet. An amplifier
is usually included inside the microphone, usually a single FET. This
is why electret microphones require a DC supply. One neat thing about
this is that they can be substituted for carbon microphones, which also
require a low-voltage DC supply. Hence electret mikes are also widely used
in telephones and communication radios where carbon mikes were once used.


--
Clyde Smith-Stubbs               |            HI-TECH Software
Email: STOPspamclydespamhtsoft.com          |          Phone            Fax
WWW:   http://www.htsoft.com/    | USA: (408) 490 2885  (408) 490 2885
PGP:   finger EraseMEclydespam_OUTspamhtsoft.com   | AUS: +61 7 3354 2411 +61 7 3354 2422
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
ANSI C for the PIC! Now shipping! See http://www.htsoft.com for more info.

1997\10\10@050217 by Andrew Warren

face
flavicon
face
Scott Walsh <PICLISTKILLspamspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU> wrote:

> No need to apologise. In fact you are in a sense right as a VERY
> long time ago capacitors used to be know as CONDENSORS.
>
> real old telepgraph equipment used in the early 1900's .... is
> where I first saw a capacitor called a condensor.

Scott:

For what it's worth, the capacitor that's placed across the points in
automotive contact-point ignitions is STILL called a "condensor".

-Andy

=== Andrew Warren - TakeThisOuTfastfwdKILLspamspamix.netcom.com
=== Fast Forward Engineering - Vista, California
=== http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/2499

1997\10\10@055106 by johnb

picon face
Scott Walsh wrote:
>
>      No need to apologise. In fact you are in a sense right as a VERY long
>      time ago capacitors used to be know as CONDENSORS.
>      etc etc

> ______________________________ Reply Separator
_________________________________

Not spelt like that, surely? According to the Oxford Dictionary:
CONDENSER: chamber in steam-engine in which steam is condensed on
leaving cylinder; (electrical) capacitor; system of lenses,
concentrating light.

L knew an New Zealander who always said "condeeznance". It was
impossible to know the spelling of this word as he never wrote it down.

John Blackburn London UK.

1997\10\10@062308 by Oyvind Kaurstad

flavicon
face
>> No need to apologise. In fact you are in a sense right as a VERY
>> long time ago capacitors used to be know as CONDENSORS.
>>
>> real old telepgraph equipment used in the early 1900's .... is
>> where I first saw a capacitor called a condensor.

>For what it's worth, the capacitor that's placed across the points in
>automotive contact-point ignitions is STILL called a "condensor".

That's a bit strange....

In norwegian we use the word "kondensator" for a capacitor. (All types,
not only the automotive ones)

"kondensator" and "condensor" is not so different..


-Oyvind

'[OT, somewhat] Windows CE...'
1997\10\10@070821 by Mike Smith

flavicon
face
-----Original Message-----
From: Andrew Warren <spamfastfwd.....spam@spam@IX.NETCOM.COM>
To: spam_OUTPICLISTspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU <EraseMEPICLISTspamBeGonespamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Date: Thursday, 9 October 1997 16:03
Subject: Re: [OT, somewhat] Windows CE...


William Chops Westfield <EraseMEPICLISTspam_OUTspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

OTOH, I haven't seen anything from embedded java that I really want.  Java
looks nice, but not nice enough to switch from c++.  What embedded java h/w
is available in the characteristics WinCE h/w must have?
I *can* see attractions in a modicum of code transportability between
Win95 -> CE
I *can't* see much of this rather vapourous java, other than implementations
running on existing non-native java platforms.
Am I missing the point?

>Whether you call Win-CE (or Embedded Java) an "embedded operating
>system", "real-time operating system", or "small personal computer
>operating system" is unimportant... The important thing is that Sun

Yes, thats just playing with aliases <g>

>and Microsoft will be battling each other in a market that's been
>stagnating for a while, so good things are bound to come from the
>competition.

MS are probably happy - it gives them someone to point to when the
anti-trust suits get too close...

>Not that it matters to ME, of course... I write for half-K PICs
>with 25 bytes of RAM.

Where do you want to go today - well, a PIC without segmentation would be
nice, for a start.

'[OT] another q from the stupid newbie'
1997\10\10@070825 by Mike Smith

flavicon
face
-----Original Message-----
From: Andrew Warren <fastfwdspam_OUTspamIX.NETCOM.COM>
To: spam_OUTPICLISTTakeThisOuTspamKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU <TakeThisOuTPICLISTspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Date: Friday, 10 October 1997 8:21
Subject: Re: [OT] another q from the stupid newbie

>    Good explanation, Martin, but you left out one important thing:

>    After every copy from source to destination, the "while" examines
>    the value that was copied.  If the value isn't equal to 0,   the
>    next thing is copied; if it IS equal to 0 (as it will be after
>    the last value in the zero-terminated string is copied), the loop
>    terminates and execution continues to the next instruction.


And if it's not zero-terminated, god help you.  It'll copy till it finds
one, writing merrily away into who knows where.
One reason I prefer a string class. (one of many!)

MikeS
<spammikesmith_ozspam_OUTspamrelaymail.net>

1997\10\10@095202 by Martin R. Green

picon face
You got me.  I was so busy describing the dereferencing and postfix
incrementing _inside_ the parenthesis, I forgot the whole thing was in
a while loop.  Thanks for your amplification.


Martin R. Green
EraseMEelimarspamspambigfoot.com

On Thu, 9 Oct 1997 15:48:51 -0800, Andrew Warren
<KILLspamfastfwdEraseMEspamspam_OUTIX.NETCOM.COM> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

1997\10\10@095608 by Martin R. Green

picon face
Actually, most modern compilers warn you if you do...

       while (*dest++ = *source++);

...with a message like "Possibly incorrect assignment", so I usually
include the explicit comparison.  I'm a big believer in readability, I
hate going back to some of my own old code and not being able to
figure out what I did, or why.

Martin R. Green
STOPspamelimarspamspambigfoot.com

On Fri, 10 Oct 1997 09:33:26 +1000, Clyde Smith-Stubbs
<spamclydeKILLspamspamHTSOFT.COM> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

'[ot] Counting on ones fingers -- wasRe: another q '
1997\10\10@181926 by Shane Nelson

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I had no idea counting on your fingers was such a fine art. I've
been doing it all wrong! <g>

> > > Actually, I personally usually use my hands to count to 100: the ten
digits
{Quote hidden}

<snip>


.scn

1997\10\10@191720 by Andy Kunz

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At 04:20 PM 10/10/97 -0600, you wrote:

Just so long as nobody flips me a "4" or a "128" I don't care how they
count.  A "132" might get you punched, though!

<G>

Andy




{Quote hidden}

==================================================================
Andy Kunz - Montana Design - 409 S 6th St - Phillipsburg, NJ 08865
         Hardware & Software for Industry & R/C Hobbies
       "Go fast, turn right, and keep the wet side down!"
==================================================================

'[OT] Condensors Re[2]: To Few Port Pins ????'
1997\10\11@101441 by paulb

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Scott Walsh wrote:

> No need to apologise. In fact you are in a sense right as a VERY long
> time ago capacitors used to be know as CONDENSORS.

 Condensers eh?  (No, it WASN'T "Condensors" either AFAIK)  You know, I
REMEMBER them too!  (Copious warm fuzzies from childhood ensue).

> When I used to work for Cable and Wireless, they have a training
> college and a museum. In the museum the have some real old telepgraph
> equipment used in the early 1900's for communicating across jungles.
> FYI it was a kind of NRZ morse code thing!

 NRZ?  You mean bipolar signalling, the current (that is, as compared
to voltage) equivalent of RS-232, so we are still using the same thing.

> Also, is anybody familiar with the term 'condensor microphone' that
> used to be on old tape recorders?

 You must be referring to VERY HIGH QUALITY old tape recorders.

> PTM: Sorry, English isn't my native language and sometimes you can see
> it :)

 Yes, Pasi, we read your text and hear your accent in our minds!
Albeit we probably hear it wrong.

 Cheers,
       Paul B.

'[ot] BMP data'
1997\10\11@101443 by paulb

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Jeff Scholz wrote:

> Look for a shareware product on the web called "Hexworks".
> It has hex viewing of files and sector by sector of disks.

 If THAT's all you want to do, then my way is to use XTREE GOLD of
which I purchased a genuine copy years ago and (it is not the latest)
still use as my "workhorse" under WIN95.  If the Explorer does half the
things that XTG can do, then for some reason I sure haven't found out
how, and it must be pretty hard to do, so I just stick with XTG.

 Hex editing of files is great.  No, it doesn't do sector editing
(however Norton's does) but do you REALLY want that?  The last time I
used that was for digging a virus out of a partition table.  I have
managed however to figure how WIN95 long file names work, FWIW.

 Cheers,
       Paul B.

'[OT] Condensors = Microphones'
1997\10\11@101446 by paulb

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Clyde Smith-Stubbs wrote:

> Hence electret mikes are also widely used in telephones and
> communication radios where carbon mikes were once used.

 Carbon mikes in communication radios eh?  You know, I REMEMBER that!
(Copious warm fuzzies from childhood ensue).

 Actually, there are a few design points to be noted here.  The
required testing criterion, extended "soak testing" at 125¡C
corresponding to storage on the dashboard or rear shelf of a car parked
in still air and full sun in an alley with the windows (glass ones that
is) closed; was not easily met by electrets.

 They appear to be used in SOME contemporary CB sets due to cheapness,
and many hand-held radios (notably including mobile phones) but
"professional" grade equipment generally uses dynamic microphone
elements as do many phones still.

 It turns out that the big (economic) advantage of electrets is their
high impedance which means high signal voltage without using expensive
transformers for coupling.  Light weight is good in a headset, counter-
productive in a telephone handset (many of which contain various forms
of ballast).

 Cheers,
       Paul B.

'[OT] another q from the stupid newbie'
1997\10\11@110422 by Mike Smith

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-----Original Message-----
From: Clyde Smith-Stubbs <clydeEraseMEspam@spam@HTSOFT.COM>
To: STOPspamPICLISTTakeThisOuTspam.....MITVMA.MIT.EDU <spam_OUTPICLISTspam_OUTspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Date: Friday, 10 October 1997 12:22
Subject: Re: [OT] another q from the stupid newbie


>>         if (1 == fred)
>
>Indeed, I have come across this. I personally have never adopted this
style,
>not because I can find any particular fault with it, but it just looks
>unnatural to me. I'm just used to having the variable on the left.
>


Makes me squirm too Clyde.  Wish it didn't - its a good idea.

MikeS
<TakeThisOuTmikesmith_ozTakeThisOuTspamrelaymail.net>

'[OT] Old TV remotes that used ultrasonic?'
1997\10\11@141902 by Andrew Russell Morris

picon face
At 08:57 AM 10/7/97 -0700, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

I have an old Zenith TV with a service manual. It uses about 6
electronically generated tones. If yours is a Zenith, I can look up the
frequencies for you.

'[ot] Counting on ones fingers'
1997\10\12@070725 by Andrew G Williams

picon face
All this talk about finger-counting raises a point that I find confusing:

I've heard many times that we use the base-10 (decimal) number system because
we have 10 fingers, resulting in 10 digits for the number system - the word
'digit' arising from the latin for 'finger'. This doesn't make sense!  As
zero is signified by no fingers, there should be 10 digits greater than zero,
but decimal only contains 9.

Did the guy who chose decimal have a finger missing?

To be sensible, I dare say the use of base-10 arose because multiplication by
10 is easy with that many fingers. What bothers me is that people still talk
about 10 fingers = 10 digits, hence the decimal system. Surely that's wrong?

Andy  (off-topic as usual).

1997\10\12@074743 by Clyde Smith-Stubbs

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On Sun, Oct 12, 1997 at 07:05:57AM -0400, Andrew G Williams wrote:
> I've heard many times that we use the base-10 (decimal) number system because
> we have 10 fingers, resulting in 10 digits for the number system - the word
> 'digit' arising from the latin for 'finger'. This doesn't make sense!  As
> zero is signified by no fingers, there should be 10 digits greater than zero,
> but decimal only contains 9.

AFAIK the concept of zero was a late addition (by Arabic mathematicians)
so 10 fingers gives you counts of 1-10, with multiples of 10 being recorded
some other way (pebbles, lines in the sand etc.)

--
Clyde Smith-Stubbs               |            HI-TECH Software
Email: EraseMEclyde@spam@spamhtsoft.com          |          Phone            Fax
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1997\10\12@084512 by Mike Smith

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-----Original Message-----
From: Andrew G Williams <KILLspamAGW01spam.....AOL.COM>
To: PICLISTEraseMEspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU <KILLspamPICLISTspamBeGonespamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Date: Sunday, 12 October 1997 20:38
Subject: Re: [ot] Counting on ones fingers


>All this talk about finger-counting raises a point that I find confusing:
>
>I've heard many times that we use the base-10 (decimal) number system
because
>we have 10 fingers, resulting in 10 digits for the number system - the word
>'digit' arising from the latin for 'finger'. This doesn't make sense!  As
>zero is signified by no fingers, there should be 10 digits greater than
zero,
>but decimal only contains 9.
>
>Did the guy who chose decimal have a finger missing?
>
>To be sensible, I dare say the use of base-10 arose because multiplication
by
>10 is easy with that many fingers. What bothers me is that people still
talk
>about 10 fingers = 10 digits, hence the decimal system. Surely that's
wrong?


Not this hoary old chestnut about counting from 0 or 1 again!!

Lets touch all the bases. <g>

Base 2 (binary) uses 0 - 1 = 2 digits
Base 8 (octal) uses 0 - 7 = 8 digits
Base 10 (decimal) uses 0 - 9 = 10 digits
Base 16 (hexadecimal - thats a rather roman way of putting it) uses 0 - 9
A - F = 16 digits

So decimal is totally consistent with the rest of the number bases.

MikeS
<KILLspammikesmith_ozspam_OUTspam.....relaymail.net>

PS does anyone use any other bases?

More to the point, why do we use both hands?  Base 5 suggests itself. (or
15,20,21<g>)

'[OT] another q from the stupid newbie'
1997\10\12@104446 by jorgegf

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Hi folks


...
Martin R. Green wrote:
{Quote hidden}

...

       You forget that each time you acomplish one copy, the thing gets tested
and the while loop exits when it is FALSE (meaning zero). So it exits at
the end of string '\0' (provided its an asciiz string).

...
>
> Pointers are not that tough really, once you get used to them, unless
> you have to mentally handle lots ot dereferencing in your head
> (dereferencing is figuring out exactly what a series of pointers and
> addresses is actually pointing to).  Something like this can be a
> headache, even for an expert C developer:
>
> x = *(thing *)( &myarry[ 5 ] )
...

you can always had more two or three levels of indirection and type
casting to make things interesting...

...
>
> CIAO - Martin R. Green
> elimarspam@spam@bigfoot.com
...


       I really think someone here is triyng to scare people away from 'C'
programming (or simply showing of 1/2 KD ;-) ).
        'C' is really a very good programming language that adds the
simplicity of high-level languages  with the ability to directly
manipulate the hardware of ASM. But this kind of criptical examples tend
to scare newcommers away.

       I'm, myself a newcommer to PICs and I wouldn't have liked this kind of
welcome to a strange environment. Trying to figure out the logic behind
the Microship ASM mnemonics (after almost 15 years of Intel
microprocessors) is hard enought.



       best regards

       Jorge F

1997\10\12@104448 by jorgegf

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Hi


Mike Smith wrote:
{Quote hidden}

       OK Mike, now you are skiding from 'C' to 'C++'.


       best regards

       Jorge F

'[ot] Counting on ones fingers'
1997\10\12@104451 by jorgegf

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Hi Andy, and others


Andrew G Williams wrote:
{Quote hidden}

...

       You are missing a little historical detail here. The truth is that the
first numbering systems didn't have a ZERO. The old civilazations around
Europe and Middle East, like for instance Babilonian, Roman, Celtics and
lots of others didn't used any simbol for zero. They didn't have maths
and the only use for numeric systems was counting (sheeps, horses,
trees, and so on). It were the arabian civilazations on the north of
Africa that created the concept of ZERO and represented it as a figure
together with the other ones (1..9) that we all use today. We still call
it 'arabic numbering' as opposite to 'roman numbering' (with letters
I,V,X...) that can still be found in the dates of old monuments.
       The Arabs are also the first ones to use arithmetics, they created
concepts like adiction/subtraction, product/division, power/root and the
likes. They were in fact the creators of the first calculating technics
(by this time China was a closed culture unknown to the rest of the
world). These calculating technics were latter developed along centuries
in european countries and finally received the actual name of Maths.
       So if you have a problem with Maths, now you know who to blame for it!
:-).


       best regards

       Jorge F (from bettwen Europe and North Africa  KD)

'[OT] Condensors Re[2]: To Few Port Pins ????'
1997\10\12@170430 by Eric van Es

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Oyvind Kaurstad wrote:

> >> No need to apologise. In fact you are in a sense right as a VERY
> >> long time ago capacitors used to be know as CONDENSORS.
> >>
> >> real old telepgraph equipment used in the early 1900's .... is
> >> where I first saw a capacitor called a condensor.
>
> >For what it's worth, the capacitor that's placed across the points in
> >automotive contact-point ignitions is STILL called a "condensor".
>
> That's a bit strange....
>
> In norwegian we use the word "kondensator" for a capacitor. (All types,
> not only the automotive ones)
>
> "kondensator" and "condensor" is not so different..
>
> -Oyvind

I think that would be because Norwegian is also a Germanic-based language.
Dutch, German and (my beloved) Afrikaans also stem from the same roots.

I speak Afrikaans, English (obvious) and Dutch fluently. German I don't
understand or speak - but I can decipher it if you hand me a written text.
Not very accurate, but close enough to understand that one should not shove
ones forefinger in a light socket <G>

Cheers!

--
Eric van Es               | Cape Town, South Africa
EraseMEvanesTakeThisOuTspamilink.nis.za | http://www.nis.za/~vanes
LOOKING FOR TEMPORARY / HOLIDAY ACCOMODATION?
http://www.nis.za/~vanes/accom.htm

1997\10\13@015801 by Pasi T Mustalahti

picon face
On Fri, 10 Oct 1997, Clyde Smith-Stubbs wrote:

> On Fri, Oct 10, 1997 at 08:48:33AM -0700, Scott Walsh wrote:
>
> >      Also, is anybody familiar with the term 'condensor microphone' that
> >      used to be on old tape recorders?
>
> Yes, it was a precursor to the current electret microphone. It consisted of
> a pair of plates arranged as an air-spaced capacitor (aka condensor)
> biased by a high voltage. One plate vibrated with the sound waves, resulting
> in a AC signal superimposed on the bias voltage.
>
PTM: I have used this kind of systems to measure pressure.

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'[ot] Counting on ones fingers -- wasRe: another q '
1997\10\13@124040 by lilel

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> I had no idea counting on your fingers was such a fine art. I've
> been doing it all wrong! <g>


I teach ten year olds binary numbers by first teaching them to count
on their fingers in binary - extend the thumb for one, extend the
index for 2, index and thumb for three etc.  I've never found it
difficult at all, but I'm pretty dextrous.


Best Regards,

Lawrence Lile

'[OT] Re: Remove - How to unsubcribe ;)'
1997\10\13@155236 by Dmitry Kiryashov

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AI BEVAN wrote:
>
> Can someone please tell me how to remove myself ?

I will not explain you how to remove yourself
because I don't like a suicide ;)

I only can tell you how to unsubcribe from piclist .

---cut---
You may leave the list at any time by sending a "SIGNOFF PICLIST"
command
to STOPspamLISTSERVspamspam_OUTMITVMA.MIT.EDU
---cut---

Send message with no subject and with SIGNOFF PICLIST command
in body to LISTSERV@ not to PICLIST@ !!!

WBR Dmitry .

'[OT] VB3 or Does Anyone Really Know What Time It I'
1997\10\14@120155 by KcW

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Here's a problem and fix I ran into writing a control package (yes, with a
PIC) with VB3 in Win3.11. I set up a couple of timer controls to perform
some scheduled events. Sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't. OK, try
this: create a form with a control group of 10 timers with an interval of
100ms. Add a control group of 10 labels. In the timer events have each time
update a count in it's own label everytime the timer event occurs. When you
run the program you might expect all the counts to be reasonably close.
Such is not the case. My problem, as illustrated, is that Windows places a
low priority on timers and, as such, they are not necessarily serviced all
the time. The result is what you saw, some timers are serviced consistently
and some not often at all. OK, so what to do? This is where the good folks
at DesaWare come in. The have a high priority timer control that, when used
in the demo above, are serviced regularily and all counts match. You are
not limited to 10 timers either. Thanks DesaWare! The moral: use the
DesaWare timer or don't use a lot of timer controls in your apps. Note that
this is not an issue in Win95 or NT.

Regards to all,
KcW

'[OT] another q from the stupid newbie'
1997\10\14@182053 by Eric van Es

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Jorge Ferreira wrote:

>         I really think someone here is triyng to scare people away from 'C'
> programming (or simply showing of 1/2 KD ;-) ).
>          'C' is really a very good programming language that adds the
> simplicity of high-level languages  with the ability to directly
> manipulate the hardware of ASM. But this kind of criptical examples tend
> to scare newcommers away.
>
>         I'm, myself a newcommer to PICs and I wouldn't have liked this kind of
> welcome to a strange environment. Trying to figure out the logic behind
> the Microship ASM mnemonics (after almost 15 years of Intel
> microprocessors) is hard enought.
>
>         best regards
>
>         Jorge F

True - but I agree that learning assembly first is the best way. That way you'd
know what the compiler is doing.

Maybe you could explain something to me (since you seem to know your C's)
A friend had trouble with the c-compiler we have at tech (I think
MCHIP/Bytecraft?)

>From the listing file it seems that the compiler keeps on clearing the RP0 bit!
Not
so nice when the next instruction sets the tris regs!

Cheers!
--
Eric van Es               | Cape Town, South Africa
EraseMEvanes@spam@spamTakeThisOuTilink.nis.za | http://www.nis.za/~vanes
LOOKING FOR TEMPORARY / HOLIDAY ACCOMODATION?
http://www.nis.za/~vanes/accom.htm

'[OT] CCD Device'
1997\10\15@054217 by Jacques Vrey

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Hi to all

I was pottering through my junk and came across, what appears to be a
linear CCD device and lens assembly. It comes out of a Panasonic
KB410 Electronic whiteboard. I was wondering if someone out there
could help me with some specs on it.

Any help will be appreciated.




Jacques Vrey
Iscor Steel Profile Products
Newcastle
South Africa
Tel: +27 (0)3431 48759
spamBeGonejvreySTOPspamspamspam_OUTit.new.iscorltd.co.za
www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Pines/4570/
The views expressed above are not necessarily those of Iscor Limited.

1997\10\15@072634 by Jacques Vrey

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Sorry about the last post, I forgot to give you the most important
details.

The CCD device part no is: UPD3575D

Any Info on this device will be appreciated.

Thanks



Jacques Vrey
Iscor Steel Profile Products
Newcastle
South Africa
Tel: +27 (0)3431 48759
.....jvrey@spam@spamRemoveMEit.new.iscorltd.co.za
www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Pines/4570/
The views expressed above are not necessarily those of Iscor Limited.

'[OT] VB3 or Does Anyone Really Know What Time It I'
1997\10\15@074101 by Mike Smith

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-----Original Message-----
From: KcW <spamBeGonekcw.kcwcc.....spamspam_OUTSYMPATICO.CA>
To: PICLIST@spam@spamspamBeGoneMITVMA.MIT.EDU <spamBeGonePICLISTEraseMEspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Date: Wednesday, 15 October 1997 1:33
Subject: [OT] VB3 or Does Anyone Really Know What Time It Is?


{Quote hidden}

Alternatively, use the multimedia timers for better resolution and priority.
I don't know how you get to them from VB though - I'm using C++, but the
problem with WM_TIMER messages is there too.

MikeS
<mikesmith_ozspamspamBeGonerelaymail.net>

'[OT] CCD Device'
1997\10\15@074310 by Steve Baldwin

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> I was pottering through my junk and came across, what appears to be a
> linear CCD device and lens assembly. It comes out of a Panasonic
> KB410 Electronic whiteboard. I was wondering if someone out there
> could help me with some specs on it.

Unless someone has a service manual for that model (and even then it's a
maybe), you'll probably have to remove the chip to find the part number.
For obvious reasons, they can't print it on the top. :-)

Steve

======================================================
 Very funny Scotty.  Now beam down my clothes.
======================================================
Steve Baldwin                Electronic Product Design
TLA Microsystems Ltd         Microcontroller Specialists
PO Box 15-680                email: spam_OUTstevebKILLspamspam.....kcbbs.gen.nz
New Lynn, Auckland           ph  +64 9 820-2221
New Zealand                  fax +64 9 820-1929
======================================================

1997\10\15@152706 by Steve Baldwin

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> The CCD device part no is: UPD3575D

The part number sounds like an NEC device. Unfortunately, the number itself
doesn't hold any clues (like 27C256, etc) and it's not listed in any of the
short forms I have.
NEC seem to obsolete linear CCDs quite quickly. Try the web site, it may
still be there.

Steve.

======================================================
 Very funny Scotty.  Now beam down my clothes.
======================================================
Steve Baldwin                Electronic Product Design
TLA Microsystems Ltd         Microcontroller Specialists
PO Box 15-680                email: STOPspamstevebRemoveMEspamKILLspamkcbbs.gen.nz
New Lynn, Auckland           ph  +64 9 820-2221
New Zealand                  fax +64 9 820-1929
======================================================

1997\10\16@015654 by Jacques Vrey

flavicon
face
> > The CCD device part no is: UPD3575D
>
> The part number sounds like an NEC device. Unfortunately, the number itself
> doesn't hold any clues (like 27C256, etc) and it's not listed in any of the
> short forms I have.
> NEC seem to obsolete linear CCDs quite quickly. Try the web site, it may
> still be there.
>
> Steve.
>

Thanks for trying, I went to http://www.nec.com.....nothing, but I'll e-mail
them now.
Thanks




Jacques Vrey
Iscor Steel Profile Products
Newcastle
South Africa
Tel: +27 (0)3431 48759
@spam@jvreyspam_OUTspamit.new.iscorltd.co.za
www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Pines/4570/
The views expressed above are not necessarily those of Iscor Limited.

'[OT] 8 pictures of piclisters'
1997\10\16@035206 by Michael Coop (pjm)

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What!...  I took a peek and... no pocket protectors ?

> I finally got the pictures I took at ESC '97 up on a web page, and took the
> liberty of adding Andre's pictures as well.
>
> the address is:
>
> http://www.bobblick.com/esc/index.html
>
> -Bob

'[OT] VB3 or Does Anyone Really Know What Time It I'
1997\10\16@101623 by paulb

flavicon
face
KcW wrote:

> Here's a problem and fix I ran into writing a control package (yes,
> with a PIC) with VB3 in Win3.11. I set up a couple of timer controls
> to perform some scheduled events. Sometimes it worked, sometimes it
> didn't.
 ...
> My problem, as illustrated, is that Windows places a low priority on
> timers and, as such, they are not necessarily serviced all the time.
 ...
> Note that this is not an issue in Win95 or NT.

 I wouldn't be too sure!  I migrated from WIN31 to WIN95 because I
found the latter serviced (comms) IRQs in dos programs whereas the
former simply DIDN'T, particularly when a program was running in the
background.  And this on the same machine.  Obviously WIN31 contains
certified faulty code, but whether '95 is unreservedly fixed in this
regard (it still fails on a certain proportion e.g. 10^-4 of background
interrupts) is moot.

 Note:  I am referring to DOS window events, whereas the VB matter is
about native Windoze calls but, ... one has to wonder.

 Cheers,
       Paul B.

'[OT] 8 pictures of piclisters'
1997\10\16@124023 by Harold Hallikainen

picon face
On Thu, 16 Oct 1997 15:41:12 +0800 "Michael Coop (pjm)"
<RemoveMEmcoop.....spamspamBeGonePOP.JARING.MY> writes:
>What!...  I took a peek and... no pocket protectors ?


       We've got a tone of pocket protectors coming in for next week's
Lighting Dimensions show in Las Vegas.  I could probably send a few out
to list members...

Harold

1997\10\16@142102 by sdattalo

face
flavicon
face
Michael Coop (pjm) wrote:

> What!...  I took a peek and... no pocket protectors ?

Michael,

Had I not been so forgetful I would have worn my special occasion,
no longer obtainable, collector's edition Fry's pocket protector.

Scott

PS
Fry's Electronics is a chain of electronics stores that started
in the heart of Silicon Valley. Their claim to fame was that it was
the only store you could by a 74LS04, M&M's, and a Penthouse
magazine all at the same time. Their success is based on the same
reason Las Vegas hates Comdex. Owning one of their pocket protectors
stuffed with a Microchip screw driver really is a great source of
pride (not to mention the prestige it commands among my friends).

1997\10\16@155427 by Walter Banks

picon face
> Fry's Electronics is a chain of electronics stores that started
> in the heart of Silicon Valley. Their claim to fame was that it was
> the only store you could by a 74LS04, M&M's, and a Penthouse
> magazine all at the same time.

I once heard a radio review of Fry's as a specialty food store
for techies. They started with cola comparison unleaded, regular
and full stregth. (Diet Coke, Classic Coke and Jolt) Twinkies, and
candy bars we featured.

All of this on Canadian CBC 1500 miles or more from FRYs

Walter Banks

'[OT]preaching'
1997\10\16@195620 by Bob Blick

face
flavicon
face
On Wed, 15 Oct 1997, Peter Cousens wrote:

> Edwin J Stevenson wrote:
> > Is it possible to subscribe to your List?
> > for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed
> > the Christ, the Saviour of the world.  John 4:42b
>
> Send a message to http://www.god.com
> with a message in the body 'subscribe'

:bob>whois god.com
Groves Online Delivery (GOD2-DOM)
  PO Box 1374
  East Arlington, MA 02174-0022
  US

:bob>ping god.com
god.com is alive

:-)

sorry to pick up an OT thread, but when I got those answers, i couldn't
resist!

Cheers,

Bob

'[OT] Atmel 8051 type processors'
1997\10\16@215441 by Rob Zitka

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face
Does anyone use ATMEL 8051 type clones?  Any thoughts on using them versus
another 8051 manufacturer?  Thanks.

Rob

1997\10\16@221736 by John Payson

picon face
> Does anyone use ATMEL 8051 type clones?  Any thoughts on using them versus
> another 8051 manufacturer?  Thanks.

As far as I can tell, the Atmel 8x51 clones are indistinguishable from other
clones save only for the ability to reprogram them.  Since the cost is often
not far from OTP's, and is much less than window parts, I think Atmel 8x51's
have a lot going for them, save only for that goofy instruction set [remem-
ber which list you're posting to... >:*3]

1997\10\16@223535 by Rob Zitka

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face
At 09:04 PM 10/16/97 -0500, you wrote:
>> Does anyone use ATMEL 8051 type clones?  Any thoughts on using them versus
>> another 8051 manufacturer?  Thanks.
>
>As far as I can tell, the Atmel 8x51 clones are indistinguishable from other
>clones save only for the ability to reprogram them.  Since the cost is often
>not far from OTP's, and is much less than window parts, I think Atmel 8x51's
>have a lot going for them, save only for that goofy instruction set [remem-
>ber which list you're posting to... >:*3]

I know, I know :)  That's why I posted to the Off topic section!  I want to
experiment a little and Atmel seems like a good deal.  Free programming
software, a schematic for making a parallel port programmer, and EE stylr
parts.  Too bad they don't have more code, but that can be found elsewhere.

Rob


>
>

1997\10\17@015708 by Antti Lukats

flavicon
face
At 10:35 PM 16/10/97 -0400, you wrote:
>At 09:04 PM 10/16/97 -0500, you wrote:
>>> Does anyone use ATMEL 8051 type clones?  Any thoughts on using them versus
>>> another 8051 manufacturer?  Thanks.
>>
>>As far as I can tell, the Atmel 8x51 clones are indistinguishable from other
>>clones save only for the ability to reprogram them.  Since the cost is often
>>not far from OTP's, and is much less than window parts, I think Atmel 8x51's
>>have a lot going for them, save only for that goofy instruction set [remem-
>>ber which list you're posting to... >:*3]
>
>I know, I know :)  That's why I posted to the Off topic section!  I want to
>experiment a little and Atmel seems like a good deal.  Free programming
>software, a schematic for making a parallel port programmer, and EE stylr
>parts.  Too bad they don't have more code, but that can be found elsewhere.

89C55 has 20 KB flash
89S8252 has 8KB flash + 2KB data EEPROM and is serially reprogrammable

we have found a pretty useful free Pascal-51 compiler if somebody
wants to get get fast into Atmel 51 parts

ftp://sistudio.com/atmel/pascal51

antti

http://avrbasic.com         -- AVR Basic Compiler
http://sistudio.com/bswfe   -- Basic Stamp Windows Front End

1997\10\17@023853 by Eugene Gil

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Hi Rob Zitka !
Atmel 8051 clone very good chips !

Best regards !
Eugene Gil


>
> Does anyone use ATMEL 8051 type clones?  Any thoughts on using them versus
> another 8051 manufacturer?  Thanks.
>
> Rob

1997\10\17@025529 by : Cassie Carstens

flavicon
face
Hi
Try :
--------------------------
BlowIT 2051

Simplest AT89C2051 Programmer

Features
Uses 2 Transistors and 5 resistors
Program only, no read or verify

Schematics and Documentation is available in PDF format
http://sistudio.com/sistudio/pdf/download.html

this archieve contents
bi2051.pas
bi2051.exe
readme.txt

Please re-distribute all files in unmodified form.
/antti
------------------------------------
Regards
Cassie


{Quote hidden}

1997\10\17@042350 by : Cassie Carstens

flavicon
face
Hi
Also look at:
---------------
BlowIT 2051

Simplest AT89C2051 Programmer

Features
Uses 2 Transistors and 5 resistors
Program only, no read or verify

Schematics and Documentation is available in PDF format
http://sistudio.com/sistudio/pdf/download.html

this archieve contents
bi2051.pas
bi2051.exe
readme.txt

Please re-distribute all files in unmodified form.
/antti
-------------
Regard
Cassie



{Quote hidden}

1997\10\17@055001 by Don McKenzie

flavicon
face
www.ip.co.za/people/kalle/atmel.htm
is the address of the Atmel Resources List by Kalle Pihlajasaari.
Kalle has set up a list server chat group for Atmel products.
Kalle's site gives full details on how to join the Atmel List server
Chat Group.
It was designed to keep the Atmel postings to a minimum on this list.

http://www.dontronics.com/atmel.html
is another link to try.

Don McKenzie  spam_OUTdonKILLspamspamTakeThisOuTdontronics.com   http://www.dontronics.com

Basic Stamp Windows 95 Front End Now Available.
PicNPoke "Pacman like" Multimedia Simulator for the PIC16x84.
SimmStick(tm) Atmel & PIC proto PCB's. 30 pin Simm Module Format.
For more details, send a blank message to info.....spam.....dontronics.com
or TakeThisOuTsimstickspamspamdontronics.com or KILLspambasics@spam@spamKILLspamdontronics.com

1997\10\17@084931 by Lynn Richardson

flavicon
face
At 03:50 PM 10/16/97 -0300, you wrote:
>At 10:35 PM 16/10/97 -0400, you wrote:
>>At 09:04 PM 10/16/97 -0500, you wrote:
>>>> Does anyone use ATMEL 8051 type clones?  Any thoughts on using them
versus
>>>> another 8051 manufacturer?  Thanks.
>>>
>>>As far as I can tell, the Atmel 8x51 clones are indistinguishable from
other
>>>clones save only for the ability to reprogram them.  Since the cost is
often
>>>not far from OTP's, and is much less than window parts, I think Atmel
8x51's
{Quote hidden}

Make that:
ftp://sistudio.com/pub/atmel/pascal51/


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lynn Richardson - Design Eng.|WA0ZNL            |Progress Instruments, Inc.
DC - 1GHz, RX, TX 100W, PLL  |WA0ZNL.AMPR.ORG   |807 NW Commerce Drive
ASM 6805, 8051, Z8, PIC      |44.46.176.3       |Lee's Summit, MO 64086
C                            |lrichspam_OUTspamKILLspamproginst.com|P(816)524-4442 F 246-4556

'[OT]preaching'
1997\10\17@092429 by Mike Smith

flavicon
face
-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Blick <EraseMEbob@spam@spamTakeThisOuTTED.NET>
To: spamBeGonePICLISTEraseMEspamspamBeGoneMITVMA.MIT.EDU <PICLISTEraseMEspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Date: Friday, 17 October 1997 9:27
Subject: Re: [OT]preaching


{Quote hidden}

A command line interpreter?  Surely god has windows.  (although I heard a
good joke about that...)
Assume CyberKit ( a combo finger/whois/traceroute etc, in a nice, easy to
digest dialog window, thru ppp)
click - domain -> Heaven
click user -> God
God is Bill.Gates.!.

TraceRoute Heaven.com
ms.dos    10ms
windows.3.11   1000ms
word.6            15s
windows.95     800ms
windows.nt      2000ms
office.97        500ms
windows.98     I don't think we're in Kansas anymore....

MikeS
<mikesmith_ozspamrelaymail.net>

1997\10\17@124947 by Engineering Department

flavicon
face
> From: Mike Smith <RemoveMEmsmithEraseMEspamspamBeGonePASTEUR.DIALIX.COM.AU>
> A command line interpreter?  Surely god has windows.  (although I heard a
> good joke about that...)
> Assume CyberKit ( a combo finger/whois/traceroute etc, in a nice, easy to
> digest dialog window, thru ppp)
> click - domain -> Heaven
> click user -> God
> God is Bill.Gates.!.
>
> TraceRoute Heaven.com
> ms.dos    10ms
> windows.3.11   1000ms
> word.6            15s
> windows.95     800ms
> windows.nt      2000ms
> office.97        500ms
> windows.98     I don't think we're in Kansas anymore....

Abraham and Isaac (A Modern Revision)

And it came to pass after these things that God did test Abraham.
He said unto him, "Abraham!" and Abraham replied, "Here I am."

And He said, "Take your computer, your old computer, your 286, and install
upon it an  operating system, a new operating system - Windows95 -
which I will show you."

And Abraham rose up early in the morning and saddled his ass.
He loaded his computer, his old computer, his 286, on the ass.
And he took two of his young men with him, and Isaac, his son.
And he rose up and went to the place where God had told him,
there to find Windows95.

Then, on the third day, Abraham lifted his eyes and saw Windows95 from
afar.
And Abraham said to his young men, "Stay here with the ass, and I and Isaac

will go  yonder and load Windows95 on our 286, and come again to you."

And Abraham took his computer, his old computer, his 286 computer, and laid
it
on Isaac, his son. And they went both of them together.

And Isaac said to Abraham, his father, and said, "My father?"
And Abraham replied, "Here I am, my son."
And Isaac said, "Windows95 requires far more memory than a 286 has,
and how will it possibly run on our machine?"

And Abraham looked at his son, his only son, whom he loved; and he shook
his
head slowly, and in perfect faith and with unswerving belief in the
Almighty,
he said,  "Fear not, Isaac, my son. God will provide the RAM."

(caged from Rick Hofmann)

Cheers,

Win Wiencke

'[OT] 8 pictures of piclisters'
1997\10\17@133817 by Tim Kerby

picon face
Hi
What are "pocket protectors".  Here in Scotland, I have never heard of them!

Tim


At 12:38 16/10/97 EDT, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

------------------------------------------------------------------
Personal Web Pages: http://web.ukonline.co.uk/members/tim.kerby/
Email: RemoveMEtim.kerbyspamukonline.co.uk
------------------------------------------------------------------

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