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'[EE]solder pot blues'
2009\02\12@160310 by Artie Jones

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Hi everyone,

I recently built a micro solder pot, and it works great.

But, it can only run for an hour or so before the oxide buildup (dross)
makes it almost impossible to use. And, because it is so small, it is not
feasible to skim the surface to remove the oxide film. I've been throwing
the solder away, but it is getting a little expensive and I've gone through
a bunch of solder already. SO, I was looking for an alternative, which would
be a high temperature flux that wouldn't boil away when placed in a solder
pot or a high temperature oil that had a smoke point well above the
temperature of the solder.

I found a product by Kester (1544-HT) that is rated for high temperature in
solder pots, (solder paste) but it sells by the gallon only.

I also found a company ( http://www.qualitek.com/2020_2100.PDF ) that makes
a special oil that prevents the molten solder from reacting with oxygen by
forming an oil film on top of the solder. But, again, the stuff is only
available by the gallon.

Are there any industrial users out there that buy this stuff by the gallon
or larger that can sell me a 10 or 12 ounces of qualitek 2020 or 2100 high
temperature oil, or equivalent?

Thanks,

T

2009\02\12@161327 by olin piclist

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Artie Jones wrote:
> Are there any industrial users out there that buy this stuff by the
> gallon or larger that can sell me a 10 or 12 ounces of qualitek 2020
> or 2100 high temperature oil, or equivalent?

I would ask local contract manufacturers that have wave solder machines.

********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.

2009\02\13@212747 by Vitaliy

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Artie Jones wrote:
> Hi everyone,
>
> I recently built a micro solder pot, and it works great.

I'm curious, what are you using it for? We considered getting a solder pot
for the lab, to use for pretinning and such, but it sounds really dangerous.
We can barely get insurance as it is (nobody understands what it is we do),
and I'm worried about our (creative, but accident-prone) guys spilling
molten solder on themselves. :)

Vitaliy

2009\02\13@224906 by Derward Myrick

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Vitaliy" <spam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTspammaksimov.org>
To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <.....piclistKILLspamspam@spam@mit.edu>
Sent: Friday, February 13, 2009 8:26 PM
Subject: Re: [EE]solder pot blues



> I'm curious, what are you using it for? We considered getting a solder pot
> for the lab, to use for pretinning and such, but it sounds really
> dangerous.
> We can barely get insurance as it is (nobody understands what it is we
> do),
> and I'm worried about our (creative, but accident-prone) guys spilling
> molten solder on themselves. :)
>
> Vitaliy

Vitaliy,  I wondered if other people had that problem with insurance.
They do not have a clue about what I do, but then there is not that
much electronic design and manufacturing here in  Louisianan.

We use a solder pot for tinning wires.  I have an automatic wire cutter
and stripper that cuts to length and strips the ends and then we tin them.

Never have had problem with anyone getting hurt with it.

Derward



2009\02\13@230310 by Vitaliy

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Derward Myrick wrote:
>> I'm curious, what are you using it for? We considered getting a solder
>> pot
>> for the lab, to use for pretinning and such, but it sounds really
>> dangerous.
>> We can barely get insurance as it is (nobody understands what it is we
>> do),
>> and I'm worried about our (creative, but accident-prone) guys spilling
>> molten solder on themselves. :)
>>
>> Vitaliy
>
> Vitaliy,  I wondered if other people had that problem with insurance.
> They do not have a clue about what I do, but then there is not that
> much electronic design and manufacturing here in  Louisianan.
>
> We use a solder pot for tinning wires.  I have an automatic wire cutter
> and stripper that cuts to length and strips the ends and then we tin them.

What type of cutter is it (make/model)? We have an application where we need
to cut equal length of wire, and doing it manually is a chore.

Vitaliy

2009\02\14@073045 by Jake Anderson

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Vitaliy wrote:
> Artie Jones wrote:
>  
>> Hi everyone,
>>
>> I recently built a micro solder pot, and it works great.
>>    
>
> I'm curious, what are you using it for? We considered getting a solder pot
> for the lab, to use for pretinning and such, but it sounds really dangerous.
> We can barely get insurance as it is (nobody understands what it is we do),
> and I'm worried about our (creative, but accident-prone) guys spilling
> molten solder on themselves. :)
>
> Vitaliy
>
>  
If your worried about that type thing then bolt it to the desk.

2009\02\14@094015 by Derward Myrick

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Vitaliy" <spamspamKILLspammaksimov.org>
To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <.....piclistKILLspamspam.....mit.edu>
Sent: Friday, February 13, 2009 10:02 PM
Subject: Re: [EE]solder pot blues

>
> What type of cutter is it (make/model)? We have an application where we
> need
> to cut equal length of wire, and doing it manually is a chore.
>
> Vitaliy


Go to this site http://www.wirestrippers.com/.

It is the MSC- 100.   I bought it seven years ago and
had one problem in Jan. of this year.  I sent the circuit board
back to them and I received it back, repaired, in a week.
The total cost for repair was $75.00.  I have been very pleased with it.

Derward


2009\02\14@104034 by Vitaliy

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Jake Anderson wrote:
>>> Hi everyone,
>>>
>>> I recently built a micro solder pot, and it works great.
>>>
>>
>> I'm curious, what are you using it for? We considered getting a solder
>> pot
>> for the lab, to use for pretinning and such, but it sounds really
>> dangerous.
>> We can barely get insurance as it is (nobody understands what it is we
>> do),
>> and I'm worried about our (creative, but accident-prone) guys spilling
>> molten solder on themselves. :)
>>
> If your worried about that type thing then bolt it to the desk.

I don't know... we have interns.

Vitaliy

2009\02\14@104416 by Vitaliy

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Derward Myrick wrote:
>> What type of cutter is it (make/model)? We have an application where we
>> need
>> to cut equal length of wire, and doing it manually is a chore.
>>
>> Vitaliy
>
>
> Go to this site http://www.wirestrippers.com/.
>
> It is the MSC- 100.  

[Vitaliy, after picking up his jaw off the floor]

Thanks, I think we'll keep stripping the wire by hand for now.

:-)

Vitaliy

2009\02\14@120359 by Marcel Duchamp

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Vitaliy wrote:
> Derward Myrick wrote:
>>> What type of cutter is it (make/model)? We have an application where we
>>> need
>>> to cut equal length of wire, and doing it manually is a chore.
>>>
>>> Vitaliy
>>
>> Go to this site http://www.wirestrippers.com/.
>>
>> It is the MSC- 100.  
>
> [Vitaliy, after picking up his jaw off the floor]
>
> Thanks, I think we'll keep stripping the wire by hand for now.
>
> :-)
>
> Vitaliy

I presume you are reacting to the price of the MSC-100... but if you
have much volume, it will allow one person to strip wire almost as fast
as 10 people using hand tools.  It doesn't cost you money; it saves you
money.  It isn't for someone who has 5 pieces of wire to strip; it's for
someone who has 5000 pieces of wire to strip.

2009\02\14@123254 by Matt Pobursky

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On Sat, 14 Feb 2009 09:02:57 -0800, Marcel Duchamp wrote:
{Quote hidden}

Exactly. One of my best friends owns and runs a contract manufacturing
company. They have two (2!) Eubanks Model 4900 cutter strippers. He told me
the first one (purchased many years ago) paid for itself in 6 months. They
bought a 2nd one a couple years later.

Another consideration is that you'll get extremely consistent length cuts
and strips on every wire. This is especially important with wires that are
going to be crimp terminated as the strip length is generally quite
critical for getting a good crimp joint.

I'm not sure about the pricing but I believe the Eubanks 4900 is in the
same price range as the machine Derward recommended. Another thing about
Eubanks -- they have been around forever in the business (at least since
before 1980 when I got into electronics). Repair and maintenance parts are
readily available for even the oldest models.

Matt Pobursky
Maximum Performance Systems

2009\02\14@135253 by Vitaliy

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Marcel Duchamp wrote:
{Quote hidden}

I presume that's 5000 pieces per minute, right?

Vitaliy

2009\02\14@144105 by Michael Algernon

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Bolt the pot down and surround it with a guard and a flip up cover
and a trained attack dog
MA
{Quote hidden}

 WFT Electronics
Denver, CO   720 222 1309
" dent the UNIVERSE "

All ideas, text, drawings and audio , that are originated by WFT  
Electronics ( and it's principals ),  that are included with this  
signature text are to be deemed to be released to the public domain as  
of the date of this communication .

2009\02\14@145829 by William \Chops\ Westfield

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On Feb 14, 2009, at 7:42 AM, Vitaliy wrote:

>>> What type of cutter is it
>>
>> Go to this site http://www.wirestrippers.com/.
>> It is the MSC- 100.
>
> [Vitaliy, after picking up his jaw off the floor]
> Thanks, I think we'll keep stripping the wire by hand for now.


http://hackaday.com/2009/01/03/automated-wire-cutter-and-stripper/  ??

BillW

2009\02\14@150850 by Tony Smith

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> Derward Myrick wrote:
> >> What type of cutter is it (make/model)? We have an application where we
> >> need
> >> to cut equal length of wire, and doing it manually is a chore.
> >>
> >> Vitaliy
> >
> >
> > Go to this site http://www.wirestrippers.com/.
> >
> > It is the MSC- 100.
>
> [Vitaliy, after picking up his jaw off the floor]
>
> Thanks, I think we'll keep stripping the wire by hand for now.
>
> :-)


That's not too bad a price for a specialised machine.

They're not all that hard to make if you've dabbled in automation or CNC.
I've built two, one was simple version just wires to length, it used a
stepper motor to both feed & measure the wire, and simple shears to cut it.

The other one performed like the one mentioned.  It had three sets of
knives, the one in the middle cut the wire, the two outer ones cut thru the
insulation.  I suspect the MSC-100 works like that, which is why it leaves
the insulation on the ends of the wire.  Not a bad thing, you can twist the
wire ends as you take the insulation off.

Control was an old DOS PC with a few dozen lines of Basic.  Type in quantity
& length, and away it went.

If you do get a solder pot, don't get tempted to speed up the process by
dipping in a handful of wires, that much flux boiling off tends to make it
spit solder at you.

What you need is a little robot arm to catch the wires off the cutter to dip
them for you.

Tony

2009\02\14@153536 by Vitaliy

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Michael Algernon wrote:
> Bolt the pot down and surround it with a guard and a flip up cover
> and a trained attack dog

You're underestimating the enginuity of interns.

Vitaliy

2009\02\14@160114 by Derward Myrick

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Vitaliy" <EraseMEspamspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTmaksimov.org>
To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <piclistspamspam_OUTmit.edu>
Sent: Saturday, February 14, 2009 9:42 AM
Subject: Re: [EE]solder pot blues


{Quote hidden}

I know what you mean.  I bought it after I got a job that needed 30+
wires cut and striped per unit and there were 5,000 units.

Derward

2009\02\14@160314 by Picbits Sales

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And don't put a plug on the end.

Problem sorted :-P


----- Original Message -----
From: "Vitaliy" <@spam@spamKILLspamspammaksimov.org>
To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <KILLspampiclistKILLspamspammit.edu>
Sent: Saturday, February 14, 2009 8:34 PM
Subject: Re: [EE]solder pot blues


> Michael Algernon wrote:
>> Bolt the pot down and surround it with a guard and a flip up cover
>> and a trained attack dog
>
> You're underestimating the enginuity of interns.
>
> Vitaliy
> --

2009\02\14@162346 by Derward Myrick

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Matt Pobursky" <RemoveMEpiclistTakeThisOuTspammps-design.com>
To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <spamBeGonepiclistspamBeGonespammit.edu>
Sent: Saturday, February 14, 2009 11:31 AM
Subject: Re: [EE]solder pot blues

> Another consideration is that you'll get extremely consistent length cuts
> and strips on every wire. This is especially important with wires that are
> going to be crimp terminated as the strip length is generally quite
> critical for getting a good crimp joint.

> Matt Pobursky
> Maximum Performance Systems



Matt,  that is a good point.  On the big job I had there were over 150,000
wires to strip.
Out of the 150,000 there were about 3/4 of them that used crimp connectors.
I also bought a pnuematic crimper and this is a life saver also.

Derward



2009\02\14@163020 by Derward Myrick

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Vitaliy" <TakeThisOuTspamEraseMEspamspam_OUTmaksimov.org>
To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <RemoveMEpiclistspamTakeThisOuTmit.edu>
Sent: Saturday, February 14, 2009 12:50 PM
Subject: Re: [EE]solder pot blues

>
> I presume that's 5000 pieces per minute, right?
>
> Vitaliy

I have several projects that take 2-300 stripped wires per project
and it pays for its self on these.  Not only in time but in quality.

Derward


2009\02\14@183413 by Michael Algernon

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Do you have a picture ?
MA
{Quote hidden}

 WFT Electronics
Denver, CO   720 222 1309
" dent the UNIVERSE "

All ideas, text, drawings and audio , that are originated by WFT  
Electronics ( and it's principals ),  that are included with this  
signature text are to be deemed to be released to the public domain as  
of the date of this communication .

2009\02\14@222921 by Tony Smith

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No pictures (was about 10 years ago) but it's easy to visualise.  Much
simpler than that one linked to before, I think that was someone's art
project.

Start with the spool of wire hanging on a bit of pipe, the wire gets fed
into a short piece of guide tube.  At the end is the stepper with a small
metal wheel mounted on the shaft, with a rubber pinch roller pressing up
against it.  If tension is a problem use two pinch rollers, or multiples.
After that is another short guide tube, and right at the end are the shears.
These were made from an old fax paper guillotine. The lower is fixed, the
upper pushed down by a cam driven by an ordinary motor.  A solenoid or
something like a car door lock would work too.

The stepper is driven from the parallel port.  If you use a unipolar
(6-wire) stepper then control is easier, you can basically connect it
straight to the port (well, some mosfets in the middle would be nice).
Bipolar (4-wire) need a h-bridge driver.  To rotate the stepper you just
turn each coil on in sequence, so "1000", "0100", "0010" "0001" out the
port, and repeat.  Add a microswitch to detect wire, and connect that to the
'paper out' pin.  Trigger the cutter when needed.

Calibrating is just figuring out how much wire comes out for each step.  Run
the stepper for ~20,000 steps, measure and divide.  You might find each step
advances 0.19324mm of wire, so 50mm is 258 steps.  The downside is your wire
will always be a multiple of that length, but who cares?  0.19324mm out?
Bah.  (actually, 0.14408mm short, as if you'd notice.)  A smaller wheel on
the stepper increases resolution.

The second one was similar but had extra blades to nick the insulation.
Looking at the wirestrippers site the idea of rotating the blade around the
wire (like coax strippers) would work well, but harder to build.  

They were only used on one type of wire so adjustability wasn't a big deal.
Hell, just make another one.

They weren't overly  fast, but they were fast enough.  Maybe a 15cm wire
every 5-10 seconds?  That over 300 an hour, who need interns anyway.

Tony


{Quote hidden}

2009\02\15@031823 by Vitaliy

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Tony Smith
> No pictures (was about 10 years ago) but it's easy to visualise.  Much
> simpler than that one linked to before, I think that was someone's art
> project.
> [...]

Awesome. :)  However, it is probably too late for us to do anything like
this: the project where the wires are needed, is currently being outsourced
to China. I hope they use automatic cutters there.

Vitaliy

2009\02\15@032846 by Richard Prosser

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2009/2/15 Vitaliy <spamEraseMEspam.....maksimov.org>:
> Tony Smith
>> No pictures (was about 10 years ago) but it's easy to visualise.  Much
>> simpler than that one linked to before, I think that was someone's art
>> project.
>> [...]
>
> Awesome. :)  However, it is probably too late for us to do anything like
> this: the project where the wires are needed, is currently being outsourced
> to China. I hope they use automatic cutters there.
>
> Vitaliy
>


Don't bet on it.

Richard (Currently visiting China)

2009\02\15@055721 by Jake Anderson

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Vitaliy wrote:
{Quote hidden}

Interns are there to be educated.

Lesson 1.
Molten solder is hot.

(and if they knock desks over by accident .... ;->)

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